Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: narikin on August 28, 2018, 12:37:49 pm

Title: Phase One IQ4-150 RAW files to download
Post by: narikin on August 28, 2018, 12:37:49 pm
2 raw files can be downloaded HERE (https://www.phaseone.com/en/Camera-Systems/XF-Camera-System/IQ4/XF-IQ4-150MP-Camera-System.aspx)
you need to have C1 11.2.1 on your system of course (DB version is free, if needed)

Pretty disappointed in the samples:

First one uses the 80mm LS at f16, which is plain silly - hello, diffraction?
The other uses the zoom with a 2 minute exposure, and is... no surprise, quite soft.

Neither of these are going to show off what 150mp is capable of.
Surely Phase can find people who know what they are doing technically?!





Title: Re: Phase One IQ4-150 RAW files to download
Post by: DougDolde on August 28, 2018, 02:09:48 pm
gotta wonder why they'd use a 2 min exposure to show how much detail the back can produce

I am not impressed either
Title: Re: Phase One IQ4-150 RAW files to download
Post by: Rainforestman on August 29, 2018, 11:49:31 pm
I'm also terribly disappointed by these samples.  It seems the dock scene is not sharp.  There is a lot of diffraction - and ok Capture One can correct largely for that, but it leaves you with the feeling how much image quality is being destroyed through diffraction. 

The lower contrast areas of the image particularly along the boards on the wharf turn to mush. 

Unfortunately the test image just raises a whole lot of doubts about the system.  Will look forward to the US dealers getting hold of the cameras to shoot some better real life examples.  I also hope that firmware can improve upon this situation.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ4-150 RAW files to download
Post by: vjbelle on August 30, 2018, 08:25:40 am
Very poor examples. A two minute exposure can be exceptionally sharp so I think something else is going on.   What are they thinking??

Victor
Title: Re: Phase One IQ4-150 RAW files to download
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 30, 2018, 08:54:25 am
There is just no way this is representative of what an IQ4 can produce.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Phase One IQ4-150 RAW files to download
Post by: Doug Peterson on August 30, 2018, 09:01:12 am
*shrugs*

I don’t disagree at all. But I’m also not at all surprised. It’s rare that any camera company provides great raw files alongside their product launch.

DT will be doing a battery of technical tests (iso sweeps, aperture sweeps, hand hold tests, tech cam lens tests, XF lens tests, tethering speed tests etc) starting as early as next week. I won’t claim to expect them to be beautiful artful pieces but I do expect them to show where the performance envelope to be.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ4-150 RAW files to download
Post by: JoeKitchen on August 30, 2018, 09:26:17 am
The reality is, the people at Phase One are not photographers, just camera makers.  FYI, I did not bother downloading the files since the talk is all pretty negative. 

It's like expecting the people who actually work at DeWalt or Milwaukee to be able to construct a set of cabinets as good as a professional cabinet maker.  It's not going to happen.  Sure, they may fool around with their tools from time to time, but it is not something they do professionally, 24/7. 

How could you ever expect the quality to be nearly as good as what a professional could deliver?  Just wait until the back is in the hands of someone who is actually a professional. 

PS, I just now read the two images provided were shot by a professional.  I have to assume it probably was not under the most ideal conditions with trying to be secretive.  Perhaps it was windy that night as well.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ4-150 RAW files to download
Post by: Gerd_Peters on August 30, 2018, 10:20:40 am
One picture is from Paul Reiffer and he had other thoughts about the picture.

Here is the link CLICK (https://www.paulreiffer.com/2018/08/hands-on-review-launching-phase-one-iq4-150mp-infinity-platform-camera-system/):

Greeting Gerd
Title: Re: Phase One IQ4-150 RAW files to download
Post by: ErikKaffehr on August 30, 2018, 10:43:49 am

Hi,

You may ask why camera vendors publish crappy images. The buildings don't move and f/11 isn't too bad regarding diffraction.

It could be that they failed to achieve correct focus.

Yeah, I have downloaded latest version of C1 and looked at those images. Not so impressed...

Going from 100 MP to 150 MP is not a giant leap. Interesting to see how 100 MP on 44x33 will compete. We will find out in a couple of months.

Best regards
Erik

Very poor examples. A two minute exposure can be exceptionally sharp so I think something else is going on.   What are they thinking??

Victor
Title: Re: Phase One IQ4-150 RAW files to download
Post by: Gerd_Peters on August 30, 2018, 11:40:10 am
I have not said that these pictures are good or bad (but they are awkward for such a publication). I just said that Paul Reiffer has changed his mind about the picture - as you can read.

What do I have to do with Donald Trump and alternative facts? I think you shoot over the target.

What is the fickleness, I have done something to you or I understand you wrong.

with unfriendly greetings Gerd
Title: Re: Phase One IQ4-150 RAW files to download
Post by: alan_b on August 30, 2018, 11:41:29 am
One picture is from Paul Reiffer and he had other thoughts about the picture.

Here is the link CLICK (https://www.paulreiffer.com/2018/08/hands-on-review-launching-phase-one-iq4-150mp-infinity-platform-camera-system/):

Greeting Gerd

LOL at the "pseudo medium format" line in that blog post.  Back in my day, we called 645 Pseudo MF! #getoffmylawn

Quote
There’s been a recent influx of “pseudo medium format” cropped-sensor cameras – from Fuji’s GFX 50S to Hassleblad’s compact X1D-50c, and many more in the works – each using what I consider to be a loophole in the industry to claim that “anything bigger than 35mm is therefore Medium Format”.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ4-150 RAW files to download
Post by: siddhaarta on August 30, 2018, 12:39:32 pm
LOL at the "pseudo medium format" line in that blog post. 

Yes, seems this is the new marketing line of Phase One and ambassadors: aggression against the so called loophole pseudo medium format offerings. Sounds desperate to me.

As has been pointed out, the downloadable raw file from Nyhavn/Copenhagen (boats) has been shot by a Pro-photographer with the 40-80mm zoom at 45mm, f/11, ISO 50 (I assume, not that far away from optimal aperture). This lens has been rated by DT as extraordinary (A++), a recent design, launched in 2014.

My preliminary conclusion from all this is that there is a problem with the imaging chain here, and it seems, that the weak link may be the lenses.

I am curious to see real world tests with several of the SK lenses.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ4-150 RAW files to download
Post by: Christopher on August 30, 2018, 06:01:32 pm
I was never a huge fan of the 40-80, but I have no doubt at all all of my lenses will make an angibt job with the new back. The only one I might be worried about is the older SK 55 lens.

I will not comment on the article or the samples, as that’s not needed..... I really don’t get why it’s so hard to produce great quality samples. That is the case for nearly EVERY manufacturer... I don’t even bother with samples anymore because I have nearly never seen any good ones... which is kinda sad isn’t it?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Phase One IQ4-150 RAW files to download
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on August 30, 2018, 06:18:49 pm
2 raw files can be downloaded HERE (https://www.phaseone.com/en/Camera-Systems/XF-Camera-System/IQ4/XF-IQ4-150MP-Camera-System.aspx)
you need to have C1 11.2.1 on your system of course (DB version is free, if needed)

Pretty disappointed in the samples...

For us without C1, can someone post a small jpegs to show what 2 files you guys are talking about?
Title: Re: Phase One IQ4-150 RAW files to download
Post by: paulreiffer on August 30, 2018, 06:33:47 pm
If I maaaay....  ;)

So, first off - I've just downloaded the raw set that's posted in the pack and there is one immediate issue, in that the ICC Profile is blank for some reason (no idea why it's that way on the version that's up there).

If you go to the "Base Characteristics" panel of the EIP, you'll see a blank ICC profile and "No Value" under Curve.  Switching this to "Phase One IQ4 150MP > Outdoor Daylight", to begin with makes a huge difference to the image in general, even if applying a simple "Auto" Curve to go with that. I have no idea why it's fallen off of the files they've put to download (but I've just mentioned it to the guys now).

Then we come to the sharpness issue.  In reality, the focus point is bang on - and we can see that for verification by turning on the focus mask on the image.

The slight softness out towards the edges on the 40-80 Blue Ring actually surprised me at the time (and the tech I was shooting with), and is something that may need a little more work in lens calibration perhaps - but at f/11 with diffraction correction turned on in Capture One it sharpens up just fine for now. In terms of the final image, more than happy to share the 850MB TIF for people to play with too.

As someone's alluded to here, shooting "secret products" comes with a whole bunch of challenges when thinking about pre-production functionality (and sometimes lack of), along with the need to experiment as we go with extremely limited time.  That said, there were a series of 5 images shot across the city, which I'm happy to provide flattened versions of for those who want a look at the others too. In all honesty, the 150 back delivers great images, and there are other examples from that same shoot which show this off perhaps to a better extent  :)


Anyway, hope that helps (at little, at least!).



PS...

LOL at the "pseudo medium format" line in that blog post.  Back in my day, we called 645 Pseudo MF! #getoffmylawn

I quite agree - but nobody's quite managed to get even a true 645-sized sensor out of Sony yet...!  ;)
Title: Re: Phase One IQ4-150 RAW files to download
Post by: ErikKaffehr on August 30, 2018, 07:27:20 pm
Hi Slobodan,

Here is file one in C1, with no sharpening, at actual pixels.

Best regards
Erik

For us without C1, can someone post a small jpegs to show what 2 files you guys are talking about?
Title: Re: Phase One IQ4-150 RAW files to download
Post by: BobShaw on August 30, 2018, 08:32:38 pm
2 raw files can be downloaded HERE (https://www.phaseone.com/en/Camera-Systems/XF-Camera-System/IQ4/XF-IQ4-150MP-Camera-System.aspx)
First one uses the 80mm LS at f16, which is plain silly - hello, diffraction?
This should not be a problem.
On the H series the 80mm goes to f32 and I expect P1 is similar.
I regularly shoot product work at f18 -20. You need this for depth of field.

The thing I noticed was the images were 150-200MB each. I wonder how many professional photographers need 150MP?
Even non pros are buying the 50MP mirrorless MF cameras out now because they are high quality at an affordable price.
50MP is plenty for most people and 150MP is targeting a very small subset of a small market anyway. The price will continue to reflect that.

I was shooting some large travel bags and had the X1D camera set up for that when then the customer bought out some accessories that were very small. Not wanting to move the camera because there were more large bags coming I tried the existing setup and just cropped the results. Even seriously cropping the image I was still able to get great results at the required 2400 pixels wide.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ4-150 RAW files to download
Post by: eronald on August 30, 2018, 09:15:13 pm
This should not be a problem.
On the H series the 80mm goes to f32 and I expect P1 is similar.
I regularly shoot product work at f18 -20. You need this for depth of field.

The thing I noticed was the images were 150-200MB each. I wonder how many professional photographers need 150MP?
Even non pros are buying the 50MP mirrorless MF cameras out now because they are high quality at an affordable price.
50MP is plenty for most people and 150MP is targeting a very small subset of a small market anyway. The price will continue to reflect that.

I was shooting some large travel bags and had the X1D camera set up for that when then the customer bought out some accessories that were very small. Not wanting to move the camera because there were more large bags coming I tried the existing setup and just cropped the results. Even seriously cropping the image I was still able to get great results at the required 2400 pixels wide.

On the rumor/announcement thread, I've just linked to the Hartblei adapter for Canon tilt/shift lenses for the Fuji. For me it's the Fuji announcement of the show, and it's already happened: Pros are going to want that for product shots and architecture, and they're all gonna get it; 100MP you don't need but SHIFT, now that is really really useful.

Btw, I'm sure Stefan could be persuaded to make an adapter for the XD as well, but it looks as if the Fuji has substantially more working shooters.
Edmund
Title: Re: Phase One IQ4-150 RAW files to download
Post by: ErikKaffehr on August 30, 2018, 11:22:40 pm
Hi,

I looked a lot at the harbour image.

One of the benefits of having more pixels is that we get a better resolution of fine detail. But, increasing resolution would also make the picture look softer. If we look at an image at 1:1 pixels, it will be more magnified on a 150 MP back than on a 100 mp back.

In the enclosed sample I show a small crop from the harbour image. On the top it is the original image, without sharpening in C1. Left below is same crop, but from the image downsized to 100 MP. Just downsizing the image makes it sharper. The image on the right size is the "100  MP" crop sharpened with focus magic. That is pretty sharp.

It may also be possible that atmospheric disturbances affect the image.

Best regards
Erik


2 raw files can be downloaded HERE (https://www.phaseone.com/en/Camera-Systems/XF-Camera-System/IQ4/XF-IQ4-150MP-Camera-System.aspx)
you need to have C1 11.2.1 on your system of course (DB version is free, if needed)

Pretty disappointed in the samples:

First one uses the 80mm LS at f16, which is plain silly - hello, diffraction?
The other uses the zoom with a 2 minute exposure, and is... no surprise, quite soft.

Neither of these are going to show off what 150mp is capable of.
Surely Phase can find people who know what they are doing technically?!
Title: Re: Phase One IQ4-150 RAW files to download
Post by: eronald on August 31, 2018, 12:06:01 am

It may also be possible that atmospheric disturbances affect the image.

Best regards
Erik

Let's not go for complicated first. I suggest diffraction.

Edmund
Title: Re: Phase One IQ4-150 RAW files to download
Post by: BobShaw on August 31, 2018, 01:40:43 am
On the rumor/announcement thread, I've just linked to the Hartblei adapter for Canon tilt/shift lenses for the Fuji. For me it's the Fuji announcement of the show, and it's already happened: Pros are going to want that for product shots and architecture, and they're all gonna get it; 100MP you don't need but SHIFT, now that is really really useful.
Btw, I'm sure Stefan could be persuaded to make an adapter for the XD as well, but it looks as if the Fuji has substantially more working shooters.
Edmund
There is already a Canon to X1D adaptor from Kipon. I got it a couple of weeks ago and it works well.
I did a post about it in this forum
Title: Re: Phase One IQ4-150 RAW files to download
Post by: ErikKaffehr on August 31, 2018, 01:46:36 am
Hi Edmund,

The image was shot at f/11 according to EXIF. It is clear that diffraction reduces sharpness at f/11, at least when using excellent lenses.

What I also saw that that sharpness varies quite a bit across the field. The image is taken at some distance. We do not know about weather, so I felt it was word mentioning.

But, you are right.

This was tested on a 4.77 micron pitch camera and 30 year old Minolta 100/2.8 macro.
f/5.6f/11
(http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/images/DoF2/A55_100Macro_small1-5.jpg)(http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/images/DoF2/A55_100Macro_small1-13.jpg)
So, diffraction is clearly visible already at f/11 on a 16MP APS-C camera used with good but in no way excellent lens.

Best regards
Erik
Let's not go for complicated first. I suggest diffraction.

Edmund
Title: Re: Phase One IQ4-150 RAW files to download
Post by: paulreiffer on August 31, 2018, 02:38:41 am
Hi Slobodan,

Here is file one in C1, with no sharpening, at actual pixels.

Best regards
Erik

Erik,

Could you include your zoom percentage slider on that screenshot?
Given the toolbar sizes, that screenshot would be a 200% crop, not at 100% zoom, showing very different results to a 1:1 pixel comparison?  May be wrong, but here's what a 100% looks like at my end on the same 1920 screen dimension you've shared...
Title: Re: Phase One IQ4-150 RAW files to download
Post by: ErikKaffehr on August 31, 2018, 04:06:55 am
Hi,

Screen shot from Photoshop and Capture One. Definitively 100%. Yes, it seems that 100% in your C1 screen dump is different from 100% in my C1 screen dump. I don't understand, would be very interesting to find out.

Best regards
Erik

Erik,

Could you include your zoom percentage slider on that screenshot?
Given the toolbar sizes, that screenshot would be a 200% crop, not at 100% zoom, showing very different results to a 1:1 pixel comparison?  May be wrong, but here's what a 100% looks like at my end on the same 1920 screen dimension you've shared...
Title: Re: Phase One IQ4-150 RAW files to download
Post by: paulreiffer on August 31, 2018, 04:09:22 am
Hi,

Screen shot from Photoshop and Capture One.

Best regards
Erik
Thanks - very odd!
Title: Re: Phase One IQ4-150 RAW files to download
Post by: cgarnerhome on August 31, 2018, 09:48:19 am
Something is clearly off!  I shoot extensively with the 40-80 zoom (non-BR) on an XF100 and I don't see that much softness at f16.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ4-150 RAW files to download
Post by: ErikKaffehr on August 31, 2018, 10:29:24 am
Hi,

This is not f/16, it is f/11!

But, it could be just a couple of bad samples.

Best regards
Erik

Something is clearly off!  I shoot extensively with the 40-80 zoom (non-BR) on an XF100 and I don't see that much softness at f16.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ4-150 RAW files to download
Post by: Steve Hendrix on August 31, 2018, 04:59:43 pm
If you create a new variant - essentially creating an "as shot" file, and you:

- Pull NR slider all the way to zero (as Paul has done)
- Push Sharpening up a bit
- Push Radius up a bit
- Pull Threshhold down to zero
- Check Diffraction Sharpening box

Then, it looks not bad. This is not a 22mp or 39mp image, it is a 150mp image, it will require adjustments to standard sharpening settings.

I still might expect better from what I see here, but keep in mind this is a 2 minute exposure.

There are lots of elements that could impact sharpness on a 2 minute exposure.

But this is just an initial couple images. There will be plenty more real world sample images coming along from multiple sources, including CI.


Steve Hendrix/CI
Title: Re: Phase One IQ4-150 RAW files to download
Post by: ErikKaffehr on August 31, 2018, 10:19:41 pm
Hi Steve,

What surprises me, a lot, is that Paul seems to have a different 100% view than I get. Paul's view is like 70% of my view.

I have exported my image to Photoshop, and that image was around 150MP. In Photoshop it looked exactly like in Capture One. I also tested exporting to DNG in C1 and developing in LR.

I checked the image without sharpening. Of course, sharpening is always applied in the process, but I wanted to see what the sensor can deliver.

I would think that some thing is wrong with that camera as sharpness differs over the field. The top of the image is pretty sharp.

Yes, we need more images before jumping conclusions.

Best regards
Erik

If you create a new variant - essentially creating an "as shot" file, and you:

- Pull NR slider all the way to zero (as Paul has done)
- Push Sharpening up a bit
- Push Radius up a bit
- Pull Threshhold down to zero
- Check Diffraction Sharpening box

Then, it looks not bad. This is not a 22mp or 39mp image, it is a 150mp image, it will require adjustments to standard sharpening settings.

I still might expect better from what I see here, but keep in mind this is a 2 minute exposure.

There are lots of elements that could impact sharpness on a 2 minute exposure.

But this is just an initial couple images. There will be plenty more real world sample images coming along from multiple sources, including CI.


Steve Hendrix/CI
Title: Re: Phase One IQ4-150 RAW files to download
Post by: Jack Hogan on September 03, 2018, 03:38:53 am
One of the benefits of having more pixels is that we get a better resolution of fine detail. But, increasing resolution would also make the picture look softer. If we look at an image at 1:1 pixels, it will be more magnified on a 150 MP back than on a 100 mp back.

In the enclosed sample I show a small crop from the harbour image. On the top it is the original image, without sharpening in C1. Left below is same crop, but from the image downsized to 100 MP. Just downsizing the image makes it sharper. The image on the right size is the "100  MP" crop sharpened with focus magic. That is pretty sharp.

I agree Erik and Ronald, that seems pretty good for a ~3.8um pixel at f/11.  Let's not forget that almost four of them would fit inside the diameter of the green Airy Disk at that f-number.  Plus if it was a 2min shot there could have been a little vibration in there somewhere.

Jack
Title: Re: Phase One IQ4-150 RAW files to download
Post by: vjbelle on September 03, 2018, 07:49:50 am
Actually a two minute exposure should be almost immune to vibration unless the vibration is constant.  Remember the days of shutter vibration?  Images were especially sensitive for exposures made at 1/15 - 1/100.  Above or below and it was mitigated.  And for really long exposures (greater than 30 seconds) it was invisible. 

Victor
Title: Re: Phase One IQ4-150 RAW files to download
Post by: Jack Hogan on September 03, 2018, 09:08:04 am
Actually a two minute exposure should be almost immune to vibration unless the vibration is constant.  Remember the days of shutter vibration?  Images were especially sensitive for exposures made at 1/15 - 1/100.  Above or below and it was mitigated.  And for really long exposures (greater than 30 seconds) it was invisible. 

That would be true of mirror slap and/or shutter shock.  I was thinking of actual ground or wind induced vibration transmitted through the tripod.  It would be easy to rule out if the photographer were to comment on the setup.

Jack
Title: Re: Phase One IQ4-150 RAW files to download
Post by: Doug Peterson on September 03, 2018, 09:37:39 am
That would be true of mirror slap and/or shutter shock.  I was thinking of actual ground or wind induced vibration transmitted through the tripod.  It would be easy to rule out if the photographer were to comment on the setup.

Notably, the XF is the only camera I’m aware of that tracks vibration *during* the exposure (from both internal and external sources) and presents it (optionally) to the user a time chart of that vibration after the exposure is complete.

However, having tested prototype cameras many time, I sympathize with the surprisingly difficult nature of it. That tool may or may not have been operable and may or may have been noticed alongside the bevvybof other considerations during such tests.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ4-150 RAW files to download
Post by: narikin on September 03, 2018, 01:59:39 pm
Come on guys, you're making excuses for dreadful soft images that should never have made the cut!

It's like you're trying to find ways to justify them. They are simply unacceptable, and as the first images released promoting their new hi-end pro back, a disaster! 

Title: Re: Phase One IQ4-150 RAW files to download
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on September 03, 2018, 02:38:45 pm
What are the file dimensions for the 150Mb back?
Title: Re: Phase One IQ4-150 RAW files to download
Post by: E.J. Peiker on September 03, 2018, 03:52:22 pm
What are the file dimensions for the 150Mb back?

14204 x 10652

Here's the specs - just scroll down a bit
https://www.phaseone.com/en/Camera-Systems/XF-Camera-System/IQ4/XF-IQ4-150MP-Camera-System.aspx
Title: Re: Phase One IQ4-150 RAW files to download
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on September 03, 2018, 04:19:00 pm
14204 x 10652...

Thanks.

So, when looking at a 100% section of a 150Mb file on my screen (109 ppi resolution), it is like looking at a print 130" or 3.3m long, printed at 109 ppi, right?

Looking at my 50Mb files on the same screen is like looking at a print 50" or 1.3m long. I am looking at both from the same distance.

Does it come as a huge surprise then that a print 3.3m long, viewed from the same distance (arm's length or less) as the 1.3m long print would look less sharp?
Title: Re: Phase One IQ4-150 RAW files to download
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 03, 2018, 07:26:28 pm
Come on guys, you're making excuses for dreadful soft images that should never have made the cut!

It's like you're trying to find ways to justify them. They are simply unacceptable, and as the first images released promoting their new hi-end pro back, a disaster!

Yes.

DSLRs companies get killed for samples 10 times better than this.

Again, this is not about the camera, I am sure it can do much better.

But it may reveal the fact that extracting the image quality potential of these 150mp backs is becoming real hard.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Phase One IQ4-150 RAW files to download
Post by: dchew on September 03, 2018, 08:11:45 pm
Phase One posted a raw file of the Rodi 23mm along with an LCC file. Pretty impressive, although in my opinion C1 default sharpening is still too strong.

Almost no color cast too. Good sign.
IQ4 w 23hr (https://go.phaseone.com/P1-2018-IQ4150MPTechnicalRAWDownload_01CampaignPage.html)

Dave
Title: Re: Phase One IQ4-150 RAW files to download
Post by: DaveRosenthal on September 03, 2018, 11:57:12 pm
Phase One posted a raw file of the Rodi 23mm along with an LCC file. Pretty impressive, although in my opinion C1 default sharpening is still too strong.

Almost no color cast too. Good sign.
IQ4 w 23hr (https://go.phaseone.com/P1-2018-IQ4150MPTechnicalRAWDownload_01CampaignPage.html)

Dave

For anyone who judged the camera by the original two samples, you must to download these samples instead--they are much, much better. I think the 32mm example (file in the same link) is even more impressive than the 23. These samples show the per-pixel sharpness that you should expect when you pair a good lens with good technique. I'd expect similar results from the 35 BR, etc. for us XF users but we'll have to wait and see.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ4-150 RAW files to download
Post by: dchew on September 04, 2018, 04:02:15 am
Yes, the 32 is well-known as the better lens of the two. For those of you “worried” about sharpness, look at the 32 image.

I was most interested in the cast on the wider lens. Looks like most, if not all of the color cast is gone with this sensor. I took the lcc image and white balanced in the center to 148/148/148. The far edges are ~ 39/40/41. Still dark, but color change is almost non-existent. Very encouraging.

Dave
Title: Re: Phase One IQ4-150 RAW files to download
Post by: [email protected] on September 04, 2018, 04:14:14 am
The LCC is very impressive. I hope Phase will also make an IQ4-100 (44x33) back.

Regards,
Ben
Title: Re: Phase One IQ4-150 RAW files to download
Post by: dchew on September 04, 2018, 04:14:55 am
Crop of the 32 hr image. Aliasing @ 150 mp. Not a bad lens.

(https://www.davechewphotography.com//temp_images/IQ4/02_Rodenstock_32mm-f8-C1.jpg)

Dave
Title: Re: Phase One IQ4-150 RAW files to download
Post by: vjbelle on September 04, 2018, 08:02:52 am
Dave..... I see a shiny new IQ4-150 with your name on it. :)

Victor
Title: Re: Phase One IQ4-150 RAW files to download
Post by: dchew on September 04, 2018, 08:25:22 am
Dave..... I see a shiny new IQ4-150 with your name on it. :)

Victor

Ha. I don't know. Here's the thing: That 32hr image was shot at f/8. I haven't done the airy disc math, but I bet diffraction is creeping in even there. As others have pointed out, everything needs to be perfect in order to get this resolution. No wind, f/8 or wider, no atmospheric mumbo jumbo, etc. No way I'm going to limit myself to those constraints, so how often will I really see the benefits?

But now with this much-improved LCC, our favorite SK's may have new life. That's a whole different story, even at f/11.3...

Dave
Title: Re: Phase One IQ4-150 RAW files to download
Post by: JoeKitchen on September 04, 2018, 08:36:17 am
OMG, there is almost no lens cast in those images.  I really want to see how the Back handles the SK 35mm and 28mm now. 

On a different note, Phase One does need to find someone who can take good release images.  Although these are fairly nice in terms of no camera shake and being sharp, I am putting them both about 1.33 stops under exposed. 
Title: Re: Phase One IQ4-150 RAW files to download
Post by: JoeKitchen on September 04, 2018, 08:40:02 am
On a different note, this kid needs to get off his cell phone and enjoy what is around him. 
Title: Re: Phase One IQ4-150 RAW files to download
Post by: Doug Peterson on September 04, 2018, 08:43:14 am
The LCC is very impressive. I hope Phase will also make an IQ4-100 (44x33) back.

As I understand it, there are no plans for any future new crop-sensor backs. Phase One is very much a "full frame 645" company now as far as its photographic division goes (the industrial division does use a 44x33 sensor as, in many aerial applications, the speed of readout is the most important thing).
Title: Re: Phase One IQ4-150 RAW files to download
Post by: vjbelle on September 04, 2018, 08:45:32 am
Dave.... from my experience most of my Schneider Digitars have to be shot at f10 or f11.  The 35XL must be shot at f11, the 60XL must be shot at f10, even the 120 Asph must be shot at f10.  I'm not buying any of the Rody wides due to their excessive distortion which is not so easy to fix in post.  So.... a lot of what you mention is very true.  The full resolution of the new back is beyond most of my lenses.

Victor
Title: Re: Phase One IQ4-150 RAW files to download
Post by: dchew on September 04, 2018, 08:46:53 am
Joe, about the under exposure: Did you create and apply the LCC? Once you do, the edges get pretty bright. At first I thought the LCC was over-correcting for falloff. Then I thought, on an angle of view that wide I bet it is a pretty realistic rendering of the sky based on the sun direction. Even without a polarizer the sky is brighter along the sun's axis.

Dave

Edit: If you switch to linear response there is indeed some headroom.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ4-150 RAW files to download
Post by: JoeKitchen on September 04, 2018, 09:10:11 am
Joe, about the under exposure: Did you create and apply the LCC? Once you do, the edges get pretty bright. At first I thought the LCC was over-correcting for falloff. Then I thought, on an angle of view that wide I bet it is a pretty realistic rendering of the sky based on the sun direction. Even without a polarizer the sky is brighter along the sun's axis.

Dave

Edit: If you switch to linear response there is indeed some headroom.

I have always found the light fall off correction in the LCC fix to be a bit overzealous. 

I would assume this is because C1 increases the output of each pixel in the correction by the amount with which it is off in the lens cast sample shot.  However, in reality, through the lens, this is not how it works.  Highlights burn in faster then shadows, so if you correct the fall off optically, with a CF, the light fall off is corrected more naturally and does not look overly bright on the edges. 

It would be impossible to really create a light falloff correction that knows how much to increase the highlights by, and then the mid-tones, and then the shadows (an amount that would be ever decreasing depending on the DMax of each pixel) to simulate a real CF, so this is what we are stuck with. 

So usually I am setting the light fall at 72% to 86%, depending on the lens, and using the CFs when I can. 

Editing the image like this, I got a fairly nice sky and light fall off in C1 while pushing the image 1.5 stops.  (Rather quick edit attached.).

Title: Re: Phase One IQ4-150 RAW files to download
Post by: Doug Peterson on September 04, 2018, 10:12:41 am
I'm not buying any of the Rody wides due to their excessive distortion which is not so easy to fix in post.  So.... a lot of what you mention is very true.  The full resolution of the new back is beyond most of my lenses.

You may have missed that Capture One has full lens corrections for the 23, 32, 35, 40, 50, 70, and 90 HR-SW. That includes distortion correction, including with movement (though you do have to manually enter the movement amount).
Title: Re: Phase One IQ4-150 RAW files to download
Post by: Altdo on September 04, 2018, 10:23:20 am
On a different note, this kid needs to get off his cell phone and enjoy what is around him.

He and his father were hunting for Pokemon at 8:30 on a Sunday morning... It seemed like it was quality Father/Son time.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ4-150 RAW files to download
Post by: vjbelle on September 04, 2018, 10:44:21 am
You may have missed that Capture One has full lens corrections for the 23, 32, 35, 40, 50, 70, and 90 HR-SW. That includes distortion correction, including with movement (though you do have to manually enter the movement amount).

Yes Doug..... but all of that correction comes at a price of loss of 'some' resolution.  Regardless of where that correction is made, either at the raw stage or beyond in post it 'does' come at a price.

Victor
Title: Re: Phase One IQ4-150 RAW files to download
Post by: Doug Peterson on September 04, 2018, 11:02:04 am
Yes Doug..... but all of that correction comes at a price of loss of 'some' resolution.  Regardless of where that correction is made, either at the raw stage or beyond in post it 'does' come at a price.

Absolutely. Any change to the pixels costs some resolution. The salient questions are how much is lost, and how does it compare to the alternative? I'd suggest "not much" and "quite well" are the answers in this case.

That is, my experience very strongly indicates that a [32HR + 10mm shift + lens corrections] is significantly sharper than a [35XL + 10mm shift].
Title: Re: Phase One IQ4-150 RAW files to download
Post by: Chris Barrett on September 04, 2018, 11:10:09 am
The sharpness is lovely, but it would have been great to see some shift movement.  The images appear to have nothing but rise, and having additional sky is useless for judging sharpness.

I agree, Joe, they should have a working architectural photographer produce a set of images if they really want to speak to tech cam usability.

IMHO,
CB
Title: Re: Phase One IQ4-150 RAW files to download
Post by: JoeKitchen on September 04, 2018, 11:41:33 am
The sharpness is lovely, but it would have been great to see some shift movement.  The images appear to have nothing but rise, and having additional sky is useless for judging sharpness.

I agree, Joe, they should have a working architectural photographer produce a set of images if they really want to speak to tech cam usability.

IMHO,
CB

I agree.  I have always found that vertical images with upward shift have put a great amount of stress on the files with the LCC due to how sensors are designed.  That being, they are typically designed to be more forgiving with upward shift in horizontal orientation. 

A much better test would have been a vertical two-point composition near the right corner of the building utilizing 16mm of shift composing the image so nearly the entire image is the building.  This would have not only given us a better sense of sharpness, but also DoF. 
Title: Re: Phase One IQ4-150 RAW files to download
Post by: ErikKaffehr on September 05, 2018, 03:03:20 am
Hi,

Clearly, there is a price, but the question is if it is a low price or a high price.

As far as I recall, lens corrections may have started with panotools and they had very good algorithms for correcting distortion.

Best regards
Erik

Yes Doug..... but all of that correction comes at a price of loss of 'some' resolution.  Regardless of where that correction is made, either at the raw stage or beyond in post it 'does' come at a price.

Victor
Title: Re: Phase One IQ4-150 RAW files to download
Post by: ErikKaffehr on September 05, 2018, 03:33:11 am
Hi Chris,

I can see your point, but still, this looks very good compared to the first sample. The LCC images seem to hold great promise.

Best regards
Erik

The sharpness is lovely, but it would have been great to see some shift movement.  The images appear to have nothing but rise, and having additional sky is useless for judging sharpness.

I agree, Joe, they should have a working architectural photographer produce a set of images if they really want to speak to tech cam usability.

IMHO,
CB