Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Steve Hendrix on August 28, 2018, 07:18:31 am
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While a lot of information remains to be fleshed out due to the future-oriented nature of the IQ4 150 product, below are some of our early impressions of the information we have so far:
CI Take:
https://captureintegration.com/decoding-the-phase-one-iq4-announcement/
IQ4 Product Page:
https://captureintegration.com/phase-one-iq4-100mp/
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Thanks Steve, Like this opening statement on your IQ4 page:
"We at Capture Integration have always tried to disseminate the marketing “speak” from the real world relevance that product announcements offer. "
Kudos to you for acknowledging that the marketing BS is not required at this level. Let the technology and features speak for itself, the rest is superfluous nonsense.
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Steve. As you know my P1 roots go deep.
But it’s sad to see P1 turn on its own potential market. Instead of working towards mirrorless P1 now is weakly trying to make mirrorless a hash. To see them attack the most positive aspect in MF in years and not embracing it, is a bit disappointing.
Great write up as always.
Paul C
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Hi Steve,
Thanks for the info! Good read as always.
Clarification on three points would be nice:
- 15EV DR. For 15 EV DR you need 15 bit readout. But Sony specs say that 150 MP 54x41 mm sensor has 14 bit readout. Naturally, if you normalize for the increase in MP, like say DxO does, you can have the same DR on the sensor. But, the 15 EV mentioned is it a per pixel value or a normalized value.
- The IQ4 150, does it have the classic CFA design or the Thrichromatic CFA.
- IR filter on the sensor, is it like IQ3100MP or like Thrichromatic.
Best regards
Erik
While a lot of information remains to be fleshed out due to the future-oriented nature of the IQ4 150 product, below are some of our early impressions of the information we have so far:
CI Take:
https://captureintegration.com/decoding-the-phase-one-iq4-announcement/
IQ4 Product Page:
https://captureintegration.com/phase-one-iq4-100mp/
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Are there updates to the focus system?
Edmund
Hi Steve,
Thanks for the info! Good read as always.
Clarification on three points would be nice:
- 15EV DR. For 15 EV DR you need 15 bit readout. But Sony specs say that 150 MP 54x41 mm sensor has 14 bit readout. Naturally, if you normalize for the increase in MP, like say DxO does, you can have the same DR on the sensor. But, the 15 EV mentioned is it a per pixel value or a normalized value.
- The IQ4 150, does it have the classic CFA design or the Thrichromatic CFA.
- IR filter on the sensor, is it like IQ3100MP or like Thrichromatic.
Best regards
Erik
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There remains the chance of a mirrorless surprise from Phase later this year, but that's a random guess. It's a *huge* investment to bring out a new camera platform like that, but Phase must make it, or long term, they'll really suffer. The tide is turning, nobody can stop it.
I'll do the IQ4 back upgrade, but not the camera. Rather than spending an additional $7/8000 on a tweaked XF, I'll get the 100mp GFX2 body for almost the same $. That's shocking.
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Hi Steve,
Thanks for the info! Good read as always.
Clarification on three points would be nice:
- 15EV DR. For 15 EV DR you need 15 bit readout. But Sony specs say that 150 MP 54x41 mm sensor has 14 bit readout. Naturally, if you normalize for the increase in MP, like say DxO does, you can have the same DR on the sensor. But, the 15 EV mentioned is it a per pixel value or a normalized value.
- The IQ4 150, does it have the classic CFA design or the Thrichromatic CFA.
- IR filter on the sensor, is it like IQ3100MP or like Thrichromatic.
Best regards
Erik
why do you call it 'Thrichromatic' when its been 'Trichromatic' since Day1 - is that some kind of pedantry or ?
I tested the Trichromatic back and was underwhelmed. Glad I didn't jump, though maybe the marketing BS raised my expectations too high. I expect this new back has some CFA improvements, Sony will have paid attention to Phase's CFA suggestions, so whilst not fully Trichro, its going to be in that direction.
Plus... Phase probably have some existing stock of 100Mp Trichro's yet to sell!
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Steve. As you know my P1 roots go deep.
But it’s sad to see P1 turn on its own potential market. Instead of working towards mirrorless P1 now is weakly trying to make mirrorless a hash. To see them attack the most positive aspect in MF in years and not embracing it, is a bit disappointing.
Great write up as always.
Paul C
Hi Paul, I don't see the lack of a cropped frame option an attack on mirrorless, if that's what you mean. I just don't think Phase One is ready to deliver a mirrorless platform yet (clearly), and they acknowledge it doesn't make sense for them to continue to offer crop sensor models in their traditional modular format, given the much lower pricing of the Fuji/Hasselblad offerings.
Steve Hendrix/CI
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Are there updates to the focus system?
Edmund
None that we are aware of so far. There are no changes to the XF camera at this time. Now, what they may be able to do with focusing via live view becomes more of an open question, but that also remains to be seen as things develop.
Steve Hendrix/CI
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There remains the chance of a mirrorless surprise from Phase later this year, but that's a random guess. It's a *huge* investment to bring out a new camera platform like that, but Phase must make it, or long term, they'll really suffer. The tide is turning, nobody can stop it.
I'll do the IQ4 back upgrade, but not the camera. Rather than spending an additional $7/8000 on a tweaked XF, I'll get the 100mp GFX2 body for almost the same $. That's shocking.
Some years back we requested that Phase One not announce new products if they will not begin shipping within 3 months of announcement. Largely, they have held to that policy. So I do not expect any further hardware announcements this year.
Steve Hendrix/CI
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There remains the chance of a mirrorless surprise from Phase later this year, but that's a random guess. It's a *huge* investment to bring out a new camera platform like that, but Phase must make it, or long term, they'll really suffer. The tide is turning, nobody can stop it.
I'll do the IQ4 back upgrade, but not the camera. Rather than spending an additional $7/8000 on a tweaked XF, I'll get the 100mp GFX2 body for almost the same $. That's shocking.
That may be a bit shortsighted: if IQ4 is really planned for an XF2 you will end up with a semi-updated system.
Phase wants your money for owning a camera body, and if you buy in they will make sure one way or another that they get it.
Forget about that GFX :)
Edmund
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Hi Paul, I don't see the lack of a cropped frame option an attack on mirrorless, if that's what you mean. I just don't think Phase One is ready to deliver a mirrorless platform yet (clearly), and they acknowledge it doesn't make sense for them to continue to offer crop sensor models in their traditional modular format, given the much lower pricing of the Fuji/Hasselblad offerings.
Steve Hendrix/CI
I would look at this as a potential sign that they are working on a mirrorless system similar to the Hassy. It would not make sense not to be working on one.
At the end of the day, I would certainly continue using a full framed back on my tech camera but choose to have a mirrorless body for any of my handheld work. The XF + back combo is just too heavy to make sense for non-studio work in today's world.
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That may be a bit shortsighted: if IQ4 is really planned for an XF2 you will end up with a semi-updated system.
Phase wants your money for owning a camera body, and if you buy in they will make sure one way or another that they get it.
Forget about that GFX :)
Edmund
I'm a tech camera user, so scratch all that. IQ4 back was ordered at 8.05am today.
The XF sits in my drawer with under 1000 shots on it. Its a paperweight basically. :-\
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At the end of the day, if I would certainly continue using a full framed back on my tech camera but choose to have a mirrorless body for any of my handheld work. The XF + back combo is just too heavy to make sense for non-studio work in today's world.
Totally agree. Same for me.
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I'm a tech camera user, so scratch all that. IQ4 back was ordered at 8.05am today.
Shows that Phase speak well to their core customer base!
Edmund
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....15EV DR. For 15 EV DR you need 15 bit readout. But Sony specs say that 150 MP 54x41 mm sensor has 14 bit readout. Naturally, if you normalize for the increase in MP, like say DxO does, you can have the same DR on the sensor. But, the 15 EV mentioned is it a per pixel value or a normalized value.......
Hello Erik,
I'm not sure about this. The Sony information I know are very ambiguous.
Here is the link CLICK (https://www.sony-semicon.co.jp/products_en/IS/sensor2/application/index.html):
Above is written:
"Rich graduation expression (High resolution AD converter - Max.16bit)"
Below are the max, frame rates listed at 14 bits. Maybe they omitted the 16 bit frame rates because they are no longer in frames per second but in seconds per frame (which I personally do not care about).
Do you have more detailed information?
Greeting Gerd
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This looks fantastic...but no new H mount support. Ever. That's depressing to hear, as I use/love my H system with Leaf back (those are gone too). Looks like it'll be a used iq100 for me when I'm ready to upgrade 5-10 years from now...
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This looks fantastic...but no new H mount support. Ever. That's depressing to hear, as I use/love my H system with Leaf back (those are gone too). Looks like it'll be a used iq100 for me when I'm ready to upgrade 5-10 years from now...
Hang in there. Judging by what happened to the prices of used IQ180s, you should be able to pick up a used IQ100 for a song in the not too distant future.
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Hi,
No, I have not any more information. But it clearly says 14 bits.
Now, DR is defined as maximum full well capacity/ readout noise. You never need more bits than what is needed for transferring the dynamic range. The 150 MP back has smaller pixels than the 100 MP back. So to keep the per pixel DR you would probably increase full well capacity and keep down readout noise.
If Sony says that the back is 14 bit, which they do, it would indicate that is the capability of the chip.
But, it is actually possible to push more data trough the channel if we use a tone mapping curve.
If Full Well Capacity/readout noise is better than 16384, it may be possible extract more DR by increasing readout time. Doubling readout time adds a bit of precision. But if your data does not have the accuracy, adding precision will not help.
It is a bit like saying that a fighting airplane reaches Mach 2 at 2000 feet. That converts to to 1521.116678597 miles per hour, but that applies sea level a day the stars are well aligned. Flying at 8000 feet would leave a less impressive figure. For any practical use, it does not matter. If you are NASA and use planets to shoot satellites in orbit around the sun, it matters a lot.
Best regards
Erik
Hello Erik,
I'm not sure about this. The Sony information I know are very ambiguous.
Here is the link CLICK (https://www.sony-semicon.co.jp/products_en/IS/sensor2/application/index.html):
Above is written:
"Rich graduation expression (High resolution AD converter - Max.16bit)"
Below are the max, frame rates listed at 14 bits. Maybe they omitted the 16 bit frame rates because they are no longer in frames per second but in seconds per frame (which I personally do not care about).
Do you have more detailed information?
Greeting Gerd
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But doesn’t the leaked plan from Sony from that time say that the old 100Mp Sensor as 14bit readout. We know it actually has 16bit. (Well 15...)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Hi,
I don't know, that is the reason I ask. Readout is made on the sensor, Sony is doing that part.
Also the size of the pixels is smaller on the 150 MP sensor and that would probably lead to smaller full well capacity, reducing per pixel DR a bit. On the other hand, it seems smaller pixels have lower readout noise and there is technical progress.
BTW, it is possible to put more than 14 EV DR trough a 14 bit channel, using a tone curve. That was done in Sony's compressed format that passed 13-14 bits of DR trough 11 bits compressed data. But I think they did it off sensor.
It could also be be that the sensor has a lower speed readout mode, that is not specified. But it is a bit confusing.
Best regards
Erik
But doesn’t the leaked plan from Sony from that time say that the old 100Mp Sensor as 14bit readout. We know it actually has 16bit. (Well 15...)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Hi,
I'm assuming the Sony sensor is 16 bits. The Sony page is confusing and I can't find any more technical data. I'd like to read more about the sensor.
The Phase One industrial camera with the same sensor seems to just be using 14 bit. They list a dynamic range of 83dB which would be around 13.8 stops. Perhaps for that market the speed is important.
https://industrial.phaseone.com/iXM-RS_150F_Camera.aspx
Bill
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What the heck does "Infinity Platform" mean?
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What the heck does "Infinity Platform" mean?
It's the name of the dock from where the first starships of the Phase One Republic leave for their exploration of the Universe.
Edmund
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What does Phase One mean?
It is phase one of the transition of the Mamiya 645 system to digital; phase two will be the mirrorless system, obviously.
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What the heck does "Infinity Platform" mean?
I don't know, but I'm holding out for Infinity+1.
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It is phase one of the transition of the Mamiya 645 system to digital; phase two will be the mirrorless system, obviously.
I had a momentary flash of depression, and for one moment thought "Infinity Platform is the ledge from which one jumps".
But that thought made me laugh :)
Edmund
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We did learn a lot of new words this week.
::)
Steve Hendrix/CI
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What the heck does "Infinity Platform" mean?
I think it's marketing gobble-de-gook for - "oh crap our SLR is redundant! please don't leave us"
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Hi,
No, I have not any more information. But it clearly says 14 bits.
Now, DR is defined as maximum full well capacity/ readout noise. You never need more bits than what is needed for transferring the dynamic range. The 150 MP back has smaller pixels than the 100 MP back. So to keep the per pixel DR you would probably increase full well capacity and keep down readout noise.
If Sony says that the back is 14 bit, which they do, it would indicate that is the capability of the chip.
But, it is actually possible to push more data trough the channel if we use a tone mapping curve.
If Full Well Capacity/readout noise is better than 16384, it may be possible extract more DR by increasing readout time. Doubling readout time adds a bit of precision. But if your data does not have the accuracy, adding precision will not help.
A bit depth of 14 would be insufficient to encode the full engineering DR of these sensors, but the noise floor of the engineering DR precludes the photographic utility of using engineering DR. Useful photographic DR is a more appropriate bench mark.
Bill Claff's (http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Nikon%20D850,Phase%20One%20IQ250,Phase%20One%20IQ3%20100MP) photographic DR is one such approach. For the Phase One sensors shown in Bill's graph 14 bits would appear to be sufficient to encode the photographic DR.
Regards,
Bill
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I think it's marketing gobble-de-gook for - "oh crap our SLR is redundant! please don't leave us"
I've promised not to make any allusions to Marvel movies, and with that in mind, it only leaves me this. Which is that it is my hope and expectation that the reference to "Infinity" is referring to a string of ongoing software developments for the IQ4 150 (and presumably future digital backs). Similar to what we have seen with the XF Camera and the firmware updates, which have been extremely well received.
I think it is easy to toss derisive comments at marketing - but if the marketing actually points to something useful, then I think we're arguing over style points. I am extremely interested to see what sort of enhancements they make to static hardware just with software updates. They already have a strong track record of this with the XF. I feel it is a very encouraging development.
Steve Hendrix/CI
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Hi,
According to Phase One specs the XF/IQ4150 has 1.4 FPS at 14 bit and 0.7 FPS at 16 bit. So, it may be that it uses a slower readout mode that is not included in the Sony spec sheet for the sensor.
Assuming ramp type converters, adding a bit of precision would give twice the readout time, so the FPS rating is pretty consistent with 15 bit readout, that would handle 15 EV of DR at the pixel level.
Best regards
Erik
A bit depth of 14 would be insufficient to encode the full engineering DR of these sensors, but the noise floor of the engineering DR precludes the photographic utility of using engineering DR. Useful photographic DR is a more appropriate bench mark.
Bill Claff's (http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Nikon%20D850,Phase%20One%20IQ250,Phase%20One%20IQ3%20100MP) photographic DR is one such approach. For the Phase One sensors shown in Bill's graph 14 bits would appear to be sufficient to encode the photographic DR.
Regards,
Bill