Luminous Landscape Forum

Site & Board Matters => About This Site => Topic started by: saiguy on July 29, 2018, 06:03:40 pm

Title: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: saiguy on July 29, 2018, 06:03:40 pm
Many acronym's are used throughout this Forum. Many of them I can figure out the meaning of, some I can't. They can be important to the flow of conversation.

Consider a glossary of acronym's? Should be easy to write up for someone who knows them. But also, where to post it?

This is truly an international forum. I am from the USA. I expect it may be more confusing for others in far off countries.
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: Farmer on July 29, 2018, 06:54:29 pm
You mean an FAQ of TLAs? ;-)

It's a good idea.
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: saiguy on July 30, 2018, 09:21:47 am
Good example. I don't know what TLA means.

I notice at the bottom of each Topic Page there is a box telling what many symbols mean. Maybe a link can be there to the TLA's, whatever they are.
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: Jeremy Roussak on July 30, 2018, 12:25:59 pm
Good example. I don't know what TLA means.

I notice at the bottom of each Topic Page there is a box telling what many symbols mean. Maybe a link can be there to the TLA's, whatever they are.

Three-Letter Abbreviation. Computing in particular is replete with them.

The abbreviation TLA has a nicely self-referential quality about it, being itself a TLA.

Jeremy
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: saiguy on July 30, 2018, 04:14:49 pm
Jeremy, thanks for the clarification of TLA? I'm still clueless. But really wouldn't this be easy to implement and very useful? The thing about these TLA's is that everyone understands this stuff. This is not true, at least for me and I suggest many others.

I presume you are busy, for our benefit, but the flow of info in these threads has some to do with understanding these TLA's. I think TLA isn't even a proper term for my suggestion: but then again I don't know what it means.

Anyway, hope you consider a glossary for these "TLA's" or can delegate someone to attempt it. Could even be a Wikipedia style?

thanks for responding,
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: Telecaster on July 30, 2018, 04:20:01 pm
I've found Google (or other search engine) searches useful for decoding new-to-me acronyms.

-Dave-
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: KLaban on July 30, 2018, 04:56:29 pm
Very good idea.

BFN
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: saiguy on July 30, 2018, 05:17:52 pm
Tecalister,

I would prefer a LULA glossary. Google is all over the map.
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: Eric Myrvaagnes on July 30, 2018, 05:44:30 pm
Very good idea.

BFN
Here is a small sampling of the 36 meanings for BFN listed on Abbreviations.com:

Bye For Now
Belgium, France And Netherlands
Bidding For Now
Before Flow Negative
Big Freekin Negative
Beer Flavored Nipples
Bungamati Foundation Nepal
bullshit F***ing nothing
Big Fat No
goodbye for now
Bathurst Finch Network
Booger Free Nose

(and there are more.)
My guess is Keith is using the first listed meaning.   :)
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on July 30, 2018, 06:11:58 pm
Yes, we need it ASAP.
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: Farmer on July 30, 2018, 06:42:18 pm
Yes, I used FAQ and TLA to demonstrate how easily a "common" understanding is not understood outside of certain experiences.  It was to support this idea because it helps people to understand and communicate and not be concerned about asking a question because it seems like it's something they should know.

It will take some effort to compile, but perhaps a thread for contributions?  Of course, they should be relevant to this content.

Dare I say, QED?
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: Eric Myrvaagnes on July 30, 2018, 08:13:49 pm
Yes, we need it ASAP.
ASAP would have to go in the FLA list, not the TLA one.  8)
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: digitaldog on July 30, 2018, 08:32:10 pm
Consider a glossary of acronym's? Should be easy to write up for someone who knows them. But also, where to post it?
Here's a start:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_abbreviations_in_photography
And no, RAW isn't there  :o
And this one's HUGE (also not an acronym).
https://www.netlingo.com/acronyms.php
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: saiguy on July 30, 2018, 09:15:24 pm
Yes, I used FAQ and TLA to demonstrate how easily a "common" understanding is not understood outside of certain experiences.  It was to support this idea because it helps people to understand and communicate and not be concerned about asking a question because it seems like it's something they should know.

It will take some effort to compile, but perhaps a thread for contributions?  Of course, they should be relevant to this content.

Dare I say, QED?
Exactly.

Andrew's first link is good for folks who lost their camera user manual. The second link for texting geeks.

Farmer's post is what would be useful.
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: fdisilvestro on July 30, 2018, 09:27:53 pm
Exactly.

Andrew's first link is good for folks who lost their camera user manual. The second link for texting geeks.

Farmer's post is what would be useful.

+1
Andrew’s first link don’t include common terms such as CoC, RIP, IBIS. The Wikipedia entry for ACR contains more than 30 possible meanings, with Adobe Camera Raw among the last.

I would be happy to contribute to it
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: KLaban on July 31, 2018, 03:52:35 am
Here is a small sampling of the 36 meanings for BFN listed on Abbreviations.com:

Bye For Now
Belgium, France And Netherlands
Bidding For Now
Before Flow Negative
Big Freekin Negative
Beer Flavored Nipples
Bungamati Foundation Nepal
bullshit F***ing nothing
Big Fat No
goodbye for now
Bathurst Finch Network
Booger Free Nose

(and there are more.)
My guess is Keith is using the first listed meaning.   :)

Hmm...Bye For Now or Beer Flavoured Nipples...

;-)
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: Farmer on July 31, 2018, 03:57:35 am
Oh, and I thought I'd throw in my favourite of all time for net TLAs:

wylasomtgwtc (easily Googled, btw)
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: Jeremy Roussak on July 31, 2018, 05:41:19 am
I've always been quite keen on the tech support diagnosis: PEBKAC (otherwise, PICNIC, etc). Also, easily Googleable.

And there are more medical abbreviations in dubious taste than you can shake a stick at.

Jeremy
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: Farmer on July 31, 2018, 06:59:39 am
Yes, in the IT world they often record ID10T errors, although that's not really an acronym.

So what say you, Jeremy, a thread (lightly moderated to keep it to useful info only), of relevant TLAs and explanations?  And perhaps brief note on pluralising TLAs to ensure they don't become possessive?
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: Eric Myrvaagnes on July 31, 2018, 08:38:37 am
"The TLAs are coming! Soon you will all be TLA's!"

-ERM
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on July 31, 2018, 01:16:03 pm
"The TLAs are coming! Soon you will all be TLA's!"

-ERM
I'm curious as to what the first commonly used acronym was.  Perhaps SOS.  Certainly SNAFU was of WW II origin.  My favorite was the one we used in our lab at NIH was P6 - Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on July 31, 2018, 01:41:17 pm
As a photographic site, I think our acronym glossary should be illustrated:

Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: Eric Myrvaagnes on July 31, 2018, 02:06:49 pm
As a photographic site, I think our acronym glossary should be illustrated:
+1!
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: Jeremy Roussak on July 31, 2018, 02:22:11 pm
Yes, in the IT world they often record ID10T errors, although that's not really an acronym.

So what say you, Jeremy, a thread (lightly moderated to keep it to useful info only), of relevant TLAs and explanations?  And perhaps brief note on pluralising TLAs to ensure they don't become possessive?

I suspect some sort of wiki might be better. Threads here take up an awful lot of screen real estate to say very little (that's not a general comment about quality, just an observation about single-line postings).

Jeremy
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: Jeremy Roussak on July 31, 2018, 02:24:48 pm
I'm curious as to what the first commonly used acronym was.  Perhaps SOS.  Certainly SNAFU was of WW II origin.  My favorite was the one we used in our lab at NIH was P6 - Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance

We should probably define our terms, too. I'm old-school: an acronym is a pronounceable abbreviation, so acronyms are a subset of abbreviations. Thus SOS isn't, because it's always "ess oh ess", and nor is TLA; but SNAFU is. Raw, of course, is merely a word.

I'd understood 6Ps to be a military abbreviation.

Jeremy
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on July 31, 2018, 02:28:13 pm
... an acronym is a pronounceable abbreviation, so acronyms are a subset of abbreviations. Thus SOS isn't, because it's always "ess oh ess"...

Funny, it IS an acronym in Serbian, where it is pronounced as "sauce," but I digress.
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: Farmer on July 31, 2018, 03:32:58 pm
We should probably define our terms, too. I'm old-school: an acronym is a pronounceable abbreviation, so acronyms are a subset of abbreviations. Thus SOS isn't, because it's always "ess oh ess", and nor is TLA; but SNAFU is. Raw, of course, is merely a word.

Indeed.  It should be abbreviations, acronyms, and commonm technical words - all as they relate to photography and/or LL specifically.
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: saiguy on July 31, 2018, 04:44:52 pm
+1 to Farmers post. That's all that would be relevant.
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on July 31, 2018, 08:54:39 pm
We should probably define our terms, too. I'm old-school: an acronym is a pronounceable abbreviation, so acronyms are a subset of abbreviations. Thus SOS isn't, because it's always "ess oh ess", and nor is TLA; but SNAFU is. Raw, of course, is merely a word.

I'd understood 6Ps to be a military abbreviation.

Jeremy
6Ps may indeed be a military abbreviation.  I take a bit of an issue with the acronym being pronounceable.  Certainly with the advent of the early PCs and on line forums where both connect time and space were a premium resulted in a lot of acronyms:  ROTFL, LOL, etc.  A fair number of these carried over when texting on cell phones came into vogue because it was easy to type in LOL, BFF, and so on.
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: Farmer on July 31, 2018, 09:11:36 pm
6Ps may indeed be a military abbreviation.  I take a bit of an issue with the acronym being pronounceable.  Certainly with the advent of the early PCs and on line forums where both connect time and space were a premium resulted in a lot of acronyms:  ROTFL, LOL, etc.  A fair number of these carried over when texting on cell phones came into vogue because it was easy to type in LOL, BFF, and so on.

The actual definition of an acronym is an abbreviation made with the first letters of other words and then itself pronounced as a word.  It's a subset of abbreviations.

Then there are other, almost-acronyms or pseudo-acronyms which are really just shorthand of a sort like the telex favourite of bibicul8r - "bye-bye, see you later".  It represents other words, but it's not just the first letters of each, and it's pronounced as you would saying the entire phrase.

:-)
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: D Fuller on July 31, 2018, 09:23:32 pm
Here's a start:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_abbreviations_in_photography
And no, RAW isn't there  :o
And this one's HUGE (also not an acronym).
https://www.netlingo.com/acronyms.php

Is raw an acronym?
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: digitaldog on July 31, 2018, 09:29:22 pm
Is raw an acronym?
In terms of photography and raw sensor data, NO.
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on August 01, 2018, 07:18:44 am
The actual definition of an acronym is an abbreviation made with the first letters of other words and then itself pronounced as a word.  It's a subset of abbreviations.

Then there are other, almost-acronyms or pseudo-acronyms which are really just shorthand of a sort like the telex favourite of bibicul8r - "bye-bye, see you later".  It represents other words, but it's not just the first letters of each, and it's pronounced as you would saying the entire phrase.

:-)
Acronyms are pronounceable as Phil notes while initialisms (made up of the first letters of the words in the phrase) are not.  OMG and LOL are initialisms.  Here (https://www.acronymfinder.com/) is a great resource for abbreviations and acronyms.
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on August 01, 2018, 10:37:08 am
About RAW vs. raw.

It is hard not to capitalize when camera manufactures do so. And it makes sense, if for no other reason, than to distinguish a raw photographic file from, say, raw meat (as much as I like steak tartare or beef carpaccio). 
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on August 01, 2018, 10:49:05 am
if for no other reason, than to distinguish a raw photographic file from, say, raw meat (as much as I like steak tartare or beef carpaccio).
...plus Sushi.
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: Eric Myrvaagnes on August 01, 2018, 11:23:49 am
If we, as photographers, always spelled it "raW," most others wouldn't be likely to confuse it with Sushi.   ::)
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: digitaldog on August 01, 2018, 11:27:05 am
About RAW vs. raw.

It is hard not to capitalize when camera manufactures do so. And it makes sense, if for no other reason,
If fifty million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing.
-Bertrand Russell
Hard to capitalize when Adobe doesn’t (one example).
As the Chinese proverb says: "The first step towards genius is calling things by their proper name"
Common sense isn't a flower that grows in everyone's garden.  :-X
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on August 01, 2018, 11:37:44 am
... Hard to capitalize when Adobe doesn’t (one example)...

Adobe is just another user of those files. How about someone who created them? Let me see, Andrew vs. Canon... Andrew vs. Canon... hmmm... tough choice.



Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: digitaldog on August 01, 2018, 12:04:09 pm
Adobe is just another user of those files. How about someone who created them?
Wrong's wrong bud, doesn't matter who created the files. The facts you can't accept is that raw sensor data isn't an acronym.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raw_image_format
Bryce Bayer, the Eastman Kodak scientist used RAW where Slodoban?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayer_filter
Your continuing inability to resolve the facts and history and an inability to provide any meaning to "RAW" as an acronym associated with sensor data is well known now. You can and should continue to use the usage incorrectly, doesn't mean the rest of us should foolishly do so.
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on August 01, 2018, 12:12:49 pm
... you can't accept is that raw sensor data isn't an acronym...

I didn't argue it is an acronym... I suggested it should be capitalized, just as Canon does.
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: digitaldog on August 01, 2018, 12:18:39 pm
I didn't argue it is an acronym... I suggested it should be capitalized, just as Canon does.
Why SLOBODAN? You feel the need to SHOUT more than necessary?
A new Chinese proverb says: "The first step towards genius is writing things by their proper characters"  ???
I do recommend using a capital R when raw is used at the beginning of a sentence. Like properly writing about raw, it provides others insight into your abilities to properly communicate:
"Think twice before you speak, because your words and influence will plant the seed of either success or failure in the mind of another." - Napoleon
That goes for writing too SLOBODAN.  :P
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: digitaldog on August 01, 2018, 12:26:21 pm
And it makes sense, if for no other reason, than to distinguish a raw photographic file from, say, raw meat (as much as I like steak tartare or beef carpaccio).
You're going to have to work on a lot of other reasons to write raw to differentiate it's meaning if you assume as you do, it's necessary to separate it from a file or any other usage of the word; good luck SLOBODAN:

Definition of raw

rawer play  \ˈrȯ(-ə)r\; rawest play  \ˈrȯ-əst\
1 : not cooked (AR: as in steak tartare)
2 a (1) : being in or nearly in the natural state : not processed or purified raw fibers raw sewage (2) : not diluted or blended raw spirits
b : unprepared or imperfectly prepared for use
c : not being in polished, finished, or processed form raw data a raw draft of a thesis
3 a (1) : having the surface abraded or chafed (2) : very irritated a raw sore throat
b : lacking covering : naked
c : not protected : susceptible to hurt raw emotions
4 a : lacking experience or understanding : green a raw recruit
b (1) : marked by absence of refinements (2) : vulgar, coarse raw language
c : not tempered : unbridled raw power
5 : disagreeably damp or cold a raw winter day


Examples of raw in a Sentence

He entered the raw data into a spreadsheet.
The shoes rubbed my heels raw.
His throat was raw from the cold air.
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: digitaldog on August 01, 2018, 12:46:04 pm
I didn't argue it is an acronym... I suggested it should be capitalized, just as Canon does.
So now SLOBODAN, we must follow Canon and always type ON (or will you demand <ON>) instead of on? It's capped on the camera and in the manual so by your logic, on should always be typed ON.  :-X
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on August 01, 2018, 12:49:04 pm
Throwing more oil on the fire, my Nikon d810 manual has it 'NEF(RAW)' when they talk about files.  Tom Hogan in his user guide on the d810 writes the following, "NEF format often confuses Nikon DSLR newcomers (Nikon and others sometimes also refer to this format as RAW). Nikon advertises it as the highest quality format, one that preserves the “raw” image photosite data."

I take no position on what is right or wrong, only that I don't like eating 'raw' photo files, they really need to be sauteed.
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: digitaldog on August 01, 2018, 01:15:07 pm
Some history of where raw as we call it (well some of us ;) ) came from and note, it's not written RAW anywhere!
https://www.loc.gov/preservation/digital/formats/fdd/fdd000073.shtml
As for photography, here's what the ASMP calls it (I have to wonder how many are/were members):
https://www.dpbestflow.org/node/634
Or ISO:
http://www.barrypearson.co.uk/top2009/downloads/TAG2000-22_DIS12234-2.pdf

USA/TAG 2000-22
2000-06-21
Our ref: 42(WG18/Item 189.2)

32803
CFA. TIFF/EP readers are not required to handle this tag value. Used to describe “raw” image data from single-chip color sensors having a color filter array (CFA) overlay.
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: Eric Myrvaagnes on August 01, 2018, 02:08:25 pm
I tend to agree with Andrew about this.

On the other hand, what if RAW really is an Acronym? Maybe it means Really Awful Werbiage.    :(
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: digitaldog on August 01, 2018, 02:16:29 pm
I tend to agree with Andrew about this.
On the other hand, what if RAW really is an Acronym? Maybe it means Really Awful Werbiage.    :(
You go back far enough (I started writing technical articles for PEI magazine in the early 1990's), I too used RAW instead of raw when discussing raw sensor data (files) but learned the mistake of doing so, unlike so many.
RAW is one or more Acronyms but NONE have anything to do with the data cameras produce. Getting back OT, here are more than enough examples that again, have absolutely nothing to do with photography nor is there any reason to associate RAW in caps (assumed to be an Acronym or simply following the incorrect following of a few camera makers) when discussing the data a camera can produce:

RAW   Read and Write
RAW   Reading and Writing
RAW   Robert Anton Wilson
RAW   Ready and Willing
RAW   Read-After-Write
RAW   Rules As Written (roleplaying games)
RAW   Right Angle Weave (beadwork stitch)
RaW   Radio Warwick (student radio station; University of Warwick; UK)
RAW   Airways Resistance (respiratory mechanics parameter)
RAW   Ruderklub Am Wannsee (rowing club, Berlin, Germany)
RAW   Raw Architecture Workstation
RAW   Reggae Ambassadors Worldwide
RAW   Remedial Action Workplan
RAW   Rear Axle Weight
RAW   Research & Analysis Wing
RAW   Rapid American Withdrawal
RAW   Revenue Anticipation Warrants
RAW   Rifleman's Assault Weapon
RAW   Real Action Wrestling
RAW   Reconfigurable Architecture Workstation
RAW   Routing and Assignment of Wavelength
RAW   Risk Analyst Workbench
RAW   Rosa Antifa Vienna
RAW   Rutger Accounting Web
RAW   Reconnaissance Attack Wing
RAW   Reliability Achievement Worth
RAW   Retrieval Application Website
RAW   Reduction of Administrative Workload
RAW   Raunchy Asian Women (play by Diana Son)
RAW   Reno Alliance of Wrestlers
RAW   Rapid Analytical Wargaming (US DoD)
RAW   Randall & Walsh Associates (UK)
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: Jeremy Roussak on August 01, 2018, 02:17:12 pm
I tend to agree with Andrew about this.

On the other hand, what if RAW really is an Acronym? Maybe it means Really Awful Werbiage.    :(

Random Agglomeration of Words?

It's a description: raw data has not been processed.

Jeremy
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: Jeremy Roussak on August 01, 2018, 02:18:21 pm
RAW is one or more Acronyms but NONE have anything to do with the data cameras produce. Getting back OT, here are more than enough examples that again, have absolutely nothing to do with photography ...

Is that "O" as in "off"?

Jeremy
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: digitaldog on August 01, 2018, 02:19:36 pm
Random Agglomeration of Words?

It's a description: raw data has not been processed.

Jeremy
Not by a user/photographer but indeed, it's undergone processing.
Better; it's not rendered.
(http://www.digitaldog.net/files/raw.jpg)
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: digitaldog on August 01, 2018, 02:20:41 pm
Is that "O" as in "off"?

Jeremy
No. But you point out an interesting example of how Acronyms can be problematic!
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: Jeremy Roussak on August 01, 2018, 02:22:51 pm
Not by a user/photographer but indeed, it's undergone processing.

Has it? I thought the raw data comprised the values read from the sensels and some metadata, no more and no less; but I'm open to correction.

Jeremy
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: digitaldog on August 01, 2018, 02:32:04 pm
Has it?
Again, yes. And it's outlined in the URL I provided about raw data:
A camera raw image file contains minimally processed data from the image sensor of either a digital camera, image scanner, or motion picture film scanner
Another example of processing (forgive the copy and paste from a piece I did asnwering the question, does raw data have a color space):

Cameras don’t have primaries, they have spectral sensitivities, and the difference is important because a camera can capture all sorts of different primaries. Two different primaries may be captured as the same values by a camera, and the same primary may be captured as two different values by a camera (if the spectral power distributions of the primaries are different). A camera has colors it can capture and encode as unique values compared to others, that are imaginary (not visible) to us. There are colors we can see, but the camera can't capture that are imaginary to it. Most of the colors the camera can "see" we can see as well. Yet some cameras can “see colors“ outside the spectral locus however every attempt is usually made to filter those out.

EDIT: The other URL I provided also backs the first up too:
A raw file has minimal image processing done in-camera, which provides the maximum flexibility to adjust the file in post-production. Raw files require special software to view and process.
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: Jonathan Cross on August 01, 2018, 02:59:43 pm
I will try to be polite.  This thread is now well into page 3.  Of the last 25 posts the analysis is Contributor 1- 11 posts, 2 - 3 posts, 3 - 2 posts, 4- 4 posts, 5 - 3 posts, 6 - 1 post, 7 - 1 post.  Forgive me but this seems to be dragging on rather and I am reluctant to look at it any more.  I am starting to feel this about other threads - that by page 3 the posts can be dominated by a few people and the thread could have lost its way.

I have been an infrequent contributor for quite some time, love the site and its articles but am having to be more and more selective about the forum.  Am I the only one who thinks there may be not a lot new to say by page 3 of a thread?

Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: fdisilvestro on August 01, 2018, 03:14:49 pm
I agree with Andrew on this as raw is a word (not an acronym) and should not be capitalised. I couldn't care less if Canon or anybody else wrote it the wrong way.

In regards to previous comments, raw is not the same as a sensor data dump. Some examples of what Nikon does (or did) to their NEF (yes, this is an acronym) files are: Colour preconditioning, Impulse noise reduction for shutter speeds below 1/5 s, black level adjustment (some models), stuck pixel removal, and so on.

Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: fdisilvestro on August 01, 2018, 03:16:33 pm
I will try to be polite.  This thread is now well into page 3.  Of the last 25 posts the analysis is Contributor 1- 11 posts, 2 - 3 posts, 3 - 2 posts, 4- 4 posts, 5 - 3 posts, 6 - 1 post, 7 - 1 post.  Forgive me but this seems to be dragging on rather and I am reluctant to look at it any more.  I am starting to feel this about other threads - that by page 3 the posts can be dominated by a few people and the thread could have lost its way.

I have been an infrequent contributor for quite some time, love the site and its articles but am having to be more and more selective about the forum.  Am I the only one who thinks there may be not a lot new to say by page 3 of a thread?

Nobody forces you to read. Sometimes a point needs clarification and it could take several pages to get it sorted. It is up to every reader to determine if the contributions add value or not.
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: saiguy on August 01, 2018, 03:56:34 pm
Being the OP of this thread, I was suggesting an acronym glossary for this site, as it relates to this site.

Alan Goldhammer in post #32 has a link to a site with 1 million acronyms.
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: fdisilvestro on August 01, 2018, 04:12:52 pm
Alan Goldhammer in post #32 has a link to a site with 1 million acronyms.

How many of them are relevant to photography or this site?
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: jeremyrh on August 01, 2018, 04:22:07 pm
Nobody forces you to read. Sometimes a point needs clarification and it could take several pages to get it sorted. It is up to every reader to determine if the contributions add value or not.

This.

It reminds me of a joke

Old man - doctor, I'm tired of sex
Doctor - well, that's normal at your age. When did you realise this?
Old man - twice last night and again this morning
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on August 01, 2018, 06:44:10 pm
... raw is not the same as a sensor data dump. Some examples of what Nikon does (or did) to their NEF (yes, this is an acronym) files are: Colour preconditioning, Impulse noise reduction for shutter speeds below 1/5 s, black level adjustment (some models), stuck pixel removal, and so on.

Isn't that precisely the reason to distinguish RAW file from raw data? RAW is a proprietary raw. Or as Canon defines it: RAW is a converted/processed raw.
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: digitaldog on August 01, 2018, 06:51:12 pm
Isn't that precisely the reason to distinguish RAW file from raw data? RAW is a proprietary raw. Or as Canon defines it: RAW is a converted/processed raw.
Nope but nice try. Canon’s propriety raw files are CRW.
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on August 01, 2018, 06:52:24 pm
I suspect some sort of wiki might be better. Threads here take up an awful lot of screen real estate to say very little (that's not a general comment about quality, just an observation about single-line postings).

One solution would be if someone volunteers to start a thread, where that volunteer would enter the initial batch of acronyms and abbreviations, and then modify the post as new come along. Is there a way to prevent comments on a thread, short of locking it? It would be something rather easy to do if that volunteer would be someone with admin privileges, but that would be too much to ask from the moderators I suppose.
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on August 01, 2018, 06:57:28 pm
Nope but nice try. Canon’s propriety raw files are CRW.

Canon RAW files just end in .CRW, just like Nikon ones end in .NEF.

Notice how Nikon describes it?

Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: digitaldog on August 01, 2018, 07:16:47 pm
Canon RAW files just end in .CRW, just like Nikon ones end in .NEF.

Notice how Nikon describes it?
Yes! And there's your acronym SLOBODAN (NEF, Nikon Electronic Format). What you've missed again is that raw data is written as raw, not RAW not simply because you see it written that way in a Canon manual (like ON isn't the only way to write that unless you're shouting in an all cap method which is kind of silly).
You can call camera raw files RAW all you wish, doesn't change the facts or present your inability to understand that it's a hack/kludge by people who don't know better until told. So no, it isn't precisely the reason anyone incorrectly uses RAW as you assume (since you did ask and you now know). And no, RAW is not a converted/processed raw. Raw is raw. RAW can be an acronym, you've been provided examples, none of which have anything to do with camera data!
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on August 01, 2018, 07:26:55 pm
... it's a hack/kludge by people who don't know better until told...

Like Nikon and Canon?
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: digitaldog on August 01, 2018, 07:32:53 pm
Like Nikon and Canon?
Here that person would be you. YOU (better?)
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: Eric Myrvaagnes on August 01, 2018, 07:49:55 pm
In the future, to clarify things, I intend to explain to those inquiring that I set my cameras to Ruderklub Am Wansee format, instead of the Ruderklub Am Wansee plus Jiangsu Provisional Government that some photographers prefer.   :D

P.S. I suspect Canon's ".CRW" is an acronym for "Canon Raw Whatever."
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: digitaldog on August 01, 2018, 07:54:44 pm
In the future, to clarify things, I intend to explain to those inquiring that I set my cameras to Ruderklub Am Wansee format, instead of the Ruderklub Am Wansee plus Jiangsu Provisional Government that some photographers prefer.   :D

P.S. I suspect Canon's ".CRW" is an acronym for "Canon Raw Whatever."
https://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/CRW (https://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/CRW)
CRW   Canon Raw Format (filename extension)
https://whatis.techtarget.com/fileformat/CRW-RAW-File-from-Canon-digital-camera-Header (https://whatis.techtarget.com/fileformat/CRW-RAW-File-from-Canon-digital-camera-Header)
CRW stands for RAW File from Canon digital camera Header.
Go figure...

And for SLOBODAN: if two (or more) companies say a silly thing, it's still a silly thing!  :o
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on August 01, 2018, 07:57:46 pm
Like Nikon and Canon?

And Sony, Olympus, Panasonic, Fujifilm... sorry, got tired of adding arrows in the last two, but that shouldn't even be necessary, the words RAW are quite visible because... they are capitalized ;)
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: fdisilvestro on August 01, 2018, 08:00:38 pm
Nikon, Canon and many others produce outstanding photographic equipment, but that does not mean they are an authority in the language.

For instance, almost nobody follows the rules of the International System of Units (SI)

- A space should be used to separate the unit from the number: i.e. 50 mm instead of 50mm
- the unit of time is second or s but not sec (most of the specifications write shutter speeds as 1/x sec)
- Large numbers should be divided in groups of three with a thin space between them (no dots or commas). i.e. 10 000  and not 10.000 or 10,000 nor 10000

And this is just a small list of issues.
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: digitaldog on August 01, 2018, 08:05:09 pm
And Sony, Olympus, Panasonic, Fujifilm... sorry, got tired of adding arrows in the last two, but that shouldn't even be necessary, the words RAW are quite visible because... they are capitalized ;)
Adobe doesn't as outlined.
http://wwwimages.adobe.com/www.adobe.com/content/dam/acom/en/products/photoshop/pdfs/understanding_digitalrawcapture.pdf (http://wwwimages.adobe.com/www.adobe.com/content/dam/acom/en/products/photoshop/pdfs/understanding_digitalrawcapture.pdf)
They are doing this correctly! Bruce Fraser, Jeff Schewe and lots of other's don't do this incorrectly.
Read Bruce's article above not to prove he nor Adobe muck this up as you and Canon/Fuji/Nikon do, but to understand what raw data is. Your posting indicates you may need this primer.
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: digitaldog on August 01, 2018, 08:14:17 pm
Nikon, Canon and many others produce outstanding photographic equipment, but that does not mean they are an authority in the language.
Yes and that fact will fall on someone's deaf ears. Since political argument is off limits, defending the use of RAW in all caps while stating it's not an acronym is all some have to play with with these days. The 1st amendment allows people to speak/write in a technically sloppy fashion and we should allow people to do so, fully understanding that technical subjects like raw data isn't a topic everyone is qualified to understand. It's fine. It gives readers an impression on how people's 'minds work' and allows them to be further prejudge their further writings on such subjects.
You go back far enough, you'll find I used RAW incorrectly too until corrected by people I know, know more than I do (that would be Thomas Knoll). Not everyone knows what they don't know and can't learn new/correct concepts.  :'(
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on August 01, 2018, 08:32:49 pm
Adobe doesn't as outlined...

Does Adobe have its own proprietary raw format? If they would, they’d refer to it as RAW too.

You know, I am going to help you. There is a site, change.org, where you can start a petition to force all major camera manufactures to admit Andrew Rodney is right and they are all wrong.
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: digitaldog on August 01, 2018, 08:46:43 pm
Does Adobe have its own proprietary raw format?
No, they have an openly documented, non proprietary raw format called DNG. News flash for you? More homework for you:
https://helpx.adobe.com/photoshop/digital-negative.html (https://helpx.adobe.com/photoshop/digital-negative.html)

Quote
There is a site, change.org, where you can start a petition to force all major camera manufactures to admit Andrew Rodney is right and they are all wrong
I'm well aware of that site and have been for many years.

And there's a web site called Luminous Landscape where people can see and admit that SLOBODAN is wrong.  :o
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: digitaldog on August 01, 2018, 09:57:12 pm
There is a site, change.org, where you can start a petition to force all major camera manufactures to admit Andrew Rodney is right and they are all wrong.
Wrong again.
For your readers who appreciate seeing corrections to your writings, the site you are probably confusing is one with a petition for an openly documented raw format, not one that has anything to do with how a manufacturer correctly or incorrectly write the word raw:
https://www.openraw.org (https://www.openraw.org)
Noted there: The original "The RAW Problem" article by Michael Reichmann of Luminous Landscape (RIP) and Juergen Specht got published in 15 languages worldwide.
And here on this site:
https://luminous-landscape.com/the-raw-flaw/ (https://luminous-landscape.com/the-raw-flaw/)

This petition is being posted on a large number of web sites; sites with a combined readership of more than one million photographers from every country in the world.
Add your voice today.

Did you add your voice there yet SLOBODAN?  ;)
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on August 01, 2018, 11:08:02 pm
...  Noted there: The original "The RAW Problem" article by Michael Reichmann of Luminous Landscape...

You are deflecting via a straw man, but I am glad you brought up that article. Noticed how Michael Reichmann was referring to RAW files?
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: digitaldog on August 01, 2018, 11:25:22 pm
You are deflecting via a straw man, but I am glad you brought up that article. Noticed how Michael Reichmann was referring to RAW files?
You believe he, like you, is infallible?
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: LesPalenik on August 01, 2018, 11:49:03 pm
You are deflecting via a straw man, but I am glad you brought up that article. Noticed how Michael Reichmann was referring to RAW files?

Michael mentioned more than once that spelling was not his forte.

http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=59843.msg482761#msg482761
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: Farmer on August 02, 2018, 12:02:16 am
One solution would be if someone volunteers to start a thread, where that volunteer would enter the initial batch of acronyms and abbreviations, and then modify the post as new come along. Is there a way to prevent comments on a thread, short of locking it? It would be something rather easy to do if that volunteer would be someone with admin privileges, but that would be too much to ask from the moderators I suppose.

Jeremy (or Kevin or Chris etc.) creates a thread that is locked and pinned.  Someone else creates a thread where people supply definitions which is open.  As new posts are made, the moderators move over relevant info to the pinned thread - the other thread just sits and grows over time or new ones are made etc.
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: jeremyrh on August 02, 2018, 01:19:31 am
In the meantime, maybe discussion of straight from the camera not-processed type files can be banned for fear of upsetting folk.
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: farbschlurf on August 02, 2018, 02:30:05 am
Ruderklub Am Wansee
It's "Ruderklub Am Wannsee", btw.
;-)
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: Jeremy Roussak on August 02, 2018, 06:33:09 am
And for SLOBODAN: if two (or more) companies say a silly thing, it's still a silly thing!  :o

Andrew, if you are not capable of holding a reasoned discussion with people who disagree with you without resorting to tactics of playground abuse such as writing a name in capitals, it would be better if you wrote nothing at all. Behave or be banned again.

Jeremy
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: Eric Myrvaagnes on August 02, 2018, 08:19:29 am
It's "Ruderklub Am Wannsee", btw.
;-)
Sorrry about that. My "n"-key didn't bounnce as usual.   :(
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: digitaldog on August 02, 2018, 08:20:42 am
In the meantime, maybe discussion of straight from the camera not-processed type files can be banned for fear of upsetting folk.
Banned for discussing SFTCN-P files?  :'( 
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: digitaldog on August 02, 2018, 10:18:38 am
In an attempt to go back on topic (OT: On Topic) with constructive data points (like raw files are minimally processed, RAW isn't an acronym for raw data), here's a short list (sorry, out of order) for anyone who's going to build an acronym glossary for the site. These are color management specific more or less.
If you don't hear back from me in a week, or ever, I'm happily chewing my steak (https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/526335-censorship-is-telling-a-man-he-can-t-have-a-steak).  :o


CMS: Color Management System
WYSIWYG: What You See Is What You Get
LUT: Look-up Table
UCR: Under Color Removal
TRC: Tone Response Curve
TDF: Target Description File
TAC: Total Ink Coverage
RIP: Raster Image Processor
PCS: Profile Connection Space
LUX: Lumens per square meter
ICC: International Color Consortium
GCR: Gray Component Replacement
DCF: Design Rule for Camera File Systems
DAC: Digital-to-Analog Converter
OOG: Out Of Gamut
CMM: Color Matching Module or Color Matching Method
CIE: (Commission Internationale de L’Йclairage)
BPC: Black Point Compensation
ACE: Adobe Color Engine
OSD: On Screen Display
RI: Rendering Intent (place the actual RI such as Perceptual in context).
OBA: Optical Brightening Agent.
CGATS: Committee on Graphic Arts Technical Standards
CLUT: Color Look-up Table
And most importantly (just after RTFM) in forum discussions and image processing: GIGO Garbage In, Garbage Out

This IMHO isn't acceptable: aRGB. The color space is called Adobe RGB (1998). Oh and the s in sRGB is supposed to stand for Standard, but if you ask Schewe, (and I agree) we think it stands for Small or Shitty (can I say that without getting BANNED AGAIN (http://digitaldog.net/files/badge-of-honor.jpg)?) or Satanic RGB.
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: jeremyrh on August 02, 2018, 10:33:38 am
Banned for discussing SFTCN-P files?  :'(
Better play safe and stick to sftcn-p.
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: digitaldog on August 02, 2018, 10:35:47 am
Better play safe and stick to sftcn-p.
Damn MacBook Pro keyboard incremental cap lock's key is sticking!  :o
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on August 02, 2018, 10:52:06 am
...  CIE: (Commission Internationale de L’Йclairage)...

Russian letter??? Collusion!?

Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: stamper on August 02, 2018, 10:57:18 am
This thread is worse than any of the political threads and I do know I don't need to read it.
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: digitaldog on August 02, 2018, 11:28:25 am
Russian letter??? Collusion!?
Is this an attempt at a political comment? I believe for *some* posters but perhaps not all, grounds for a ban?
Title: Re: Feature request; acronym glossary
Post by: Christopher Sanderson on August 02, 2018, 11:46:10 am
Would you two please stop this fatuous nonsense!

Topic Locked

CS