Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Cameras, Lenses and Shooting gear => Topic started by: ggopher on October 14, 2006, 10:52:25 pm
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I'm interested in really getting into digital photography. I currently have a Sony DSC-P10, and it's a good camera, I like Sony, but I've just out grown it and need something with more control. Something light that I can take backpacking in the mountains. But with RAW format, so I can play with the pictures in Photoshop. Budget of around $700.
I was thinking the Canon Pro 1, meets all my needs and the price is right on a used model, but it's a bit outdated?
Does anyone have any good suggestions? Thanks!
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The Pro 1 is certainly a good camera. If you are looking for RAW capabilities, then certainly you will find more choices in the used market: Canon, Nikon, Minolta, Sony, Panasonic/Leica.
These days, only Panasonic/Leica and Ricoh (I think) offer RAW in their compact cameras. However, depending on your objectives, JPG may be enough?
Personally, I can recommend the Ricoh GRD, nice little camera.
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If you are using this camera for mountain photography where there is a lot of bright sunlight to contend with you are best off with a camera that has a real viewfinder. Those LCD screens, while improving over the years, even on the Panasonic Lumix are not very useful in bright exposed conditions - this is the most frustrating (and least discussed) aspect of using these cameras.
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Thanks for the advice, I am looking for something that has been released recently, but to buy it on the ebay market.
I think D-SLR, are too big with too many lenses for my application, I want to be able to take this camera anywhere while backpacking or canoeing.
And yes you are correct, maybe RAW is not really a requirement. We will make it a nice to have, just to play around with.
So now where does that leave me, The Canon Powershot G7 looks to offer some good manual controls with a nice compact bodt. Or the Canon S3 has a nice zoom, but I don't think I need that much zoom.
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So now where does that leave me, The Canon Powershot G7 looks to offer some good manual controls with a nice compact bodt.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=80510\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
My vote is for the Canon G6. The G7 is a completely different camera... I think. At least RAW is not an option -- among a raft of other things. (Again, I don't know what Canon was thinking.)
My opinion: The G6 is the perfect P&S camera -- all the features of a DSLR except for it having a fixed (zoom) lens. I carry it everywhere -- there are those places that a big DSLR is completely out of place but yet you must take photographs.
Ron
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I just put a Canon Powershot S70 for sale on the bay. 7 megapixels and shoots RAW (in addition to JPGs). I used it only 4 times. Perfect camera to put in a shirt pocket and always have a camera with you. I bought it as a lightweight "travel camera". I'm retired and 69 years old, and don't do much travelling anymore. I also advanced ordered an M8 and lenses, so this will become my travel camera.
Best regards
Dave G in NJ
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I think D-SLR, are too big with too many lenses for my application, I want to be able to take this camera anywhere while backpacking or canoeing.
Well, perhaps you should think twice ref. DSLR? These days, the entry models are really small (Canon Rebels, Pentaxes, etc.), and coupled with a small prime lens (think 35 f/2, or the Pentax pancake lens), they are certainly not that big (compared with my 1V, that is...).
If you think film, a nice Nikon FM2/FM3 with the 45 pancake lens will go a long way too.
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I bought an Olympus SP-350 specifically because it does RAW, though it it is not fast when shooting RAW.
(http://visual-vacations.com/images/2006-09-03_0012.jpg)
(http://visual-vacations.com/images/2006-10-04_0013.jpg)
I paid less than $250 for the camera, and am currently shooting with it in Iraq.
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I agree with pbizzaro that you shouldn't discount DSLRs yet. They don't weigh all that much, and you can always shave weight off of the rest of your backpacking kit to allow it. I suppose it's a priority thing; comfort or camera. This is providing of course that you aren't going super-ultralight, but if you are there won't be much time for photos anyway.
I keep my pack under 30lbs and that's with a 20d and a few lenses. My stupid heavy tripod adds a bit more.
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I keep my pack under 30lbs and that's with a 20d and a few lenses. My stupid heavy tripod adds a bit more.
It's all relative, I guess. I added the weight of a Leica M8, with battery, and 24mm Leica f2.8 ASPH, 21mm Zeiss f2.8, 28mm Zeiss f2.8, 35mm Zeiss f2, and 50mm Zeiss f1.5. TOTAL weight less than 6 pounds!
Regards
Dave G
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The P&S cameras that do provide RAW are too slow for most uses, especially when you factor in the shutter delay. The Canon G6 (new G& lacks RAW capability) is a good camera that will accept an external flash.
Olympus makes cameras that are "water-proof" and will survive a roll-over with your boat.
Try before you buy.
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I'm interested in really getting into digital photography. I currently have a Sony DSC-P10, and it's a good camera, I like Sony, but I've just out grown it and need something with more control. Something light that I can take backpacking in the mountains. But with RAW format, so I can play with the pictures in Photoshop. Budget of around $700.
I was thinking the Canon Pro 1, meets all my needs and the price is right on a used model, but it's a bit outdated?
Does anyone have any good suggestions? Thanks!
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=80442\")
There is the Sony V3 (counterpart of the Canon G6 with the same Sony made sensor), which has all kinds of manual controls, a hotshoe when you need it and has RAW. It also has Compact Flash and Sony Memory stick capability. Its Carl Zeiss Vario-Sonnar does not go wider than around 35mm and the long end goes to around 135mm or so but is very good within its range.
The body is made mostly of metal (magnesium alloy) and thus the build quality is very good and is compact enough to fit into a coat pocket.
It also comes with the Sony exclusive nightshot/nightframing capability, along with their exclusive Laser Hologram AF. For fast focusing (bright or low or no light), the V3 will beat the pants out of the Canon G6. The G6 comes with a slightly faster lens, however.
You can get a used one in the $325-400 range, depending on condition.
[a href=\"http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sonydscv3/]http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sonydscv3/[/url]
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Thanks for the suggestions, that Sony V3 looks really good. But at being 2 years old I am sure the technology has improved a lot since then.
I currently have a Sony Cybershot P10, which is I guess about 3/4 years old and I really want to upgrade.
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The P&S cameras that do provide RAW are too slow for most uses, especially when you factor in the shutter delay. The Canon G6 (new G& lacks RAW capability) is a good camera that will accept an external flash.
Olympus makes cameras that are "water-proof" and will survive a roll-over with your boat.
Try before you buy.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=87970\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes--I considered the Fuji 900 (something) and while it had a lot of attributes I wanted---RAW is very slow, so I backed off.
Diane
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Thanks for the suggestions, that Sony V3 looks really good. But at being 2 years old I am sure the technology has improved a lot since then.
I currently have a Sony Cybershot P10, which is I guess about 3/4 years old and I really want to upgrade.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=87987\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I personally feel that the technology has probably been applied to increase the pixel count on these small sensors and using aggressive in-camera noise reduction to make the JPEGs look good. I recently bought a V3 to supplement my R1 and I could not be happier - specifically with the portability, the controls and the IR features. I searched wide and low and even though the camera is 2 years old, it was holding its value much better than the new crop of cameras. Hard to find an excellent copy at lower than $350 or so.
It comes with a 7.2MP 1/1.8" sensor but I would have been happier if it came with 5MP in the same sensor. Unfortunately, the trend is going in reverse - stuffing more pixels into less space ! I personally would absolutely avoid the recent crop of small-sensored cameras sporting the 10MP Sony sensor and would hesitate to shoot with them in anything other than perfectly lit conditions.
I think you should also consider some of the newer specimens that come with IS and large 400+mm zoom capability, even though they may not have a hotshoe or RAW capability. Some of them can take surprisingly good images.
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Also, along with the Canon Pro 1 you mentioned above, I believe its counterparts were the Sony F828 (FAST 28-200mm f2.0-2.8mm Carl Zeiss Vario-Sonnar lens) and Olympus C8080 (Rated very highly) and also a Minolta model (forgot the name), all of the above sharing the same Sony 8mp sensor. The only problem was a purple fringing issue, particularly acute with the F828. But for sheer responsiveness, the F828 and the Minolta were prime. The Minolta could, I believe, shoot RAW with literally no lag between shots.
A bit larger than cameras of the V3 genre though, and would matter if portability is a big consideration. Also, if you are looking at cameras of this size, then why not consider maybe a Rebel XT with maybe a small fast prime ?
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sonydscf828/ (http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sonydscf828/)
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/olympusc8080wz/ (http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/olympusc8080wz/)
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The Pro1 was rather sluggish before the firmware upgrade, which it received some six months after its introduction. As a result, it lost valuable points the '8 Megapixel War' of early 2004. Michael was very enthusiastic about the Minolta A2 (which I would prefer over the Canon G7 so I don't see why Michael bought the G7 anyway, Michael, is your A2 gathering dust? But that's a different story).
The firmware upgrade for the Pro1 made it about twice as fast in focussing and overall handling, it became a totally different camera. But by then the '8 Megapixel War' was over and nobody really took notice.
Anyhow, the Pro1 has never become popular, but I've shot some 16000 frames with it and if you learn to live with its shortcomings (inherent in the type of camera), it can perform very well. Have a look at the Bahamas gallery at my website, all pictures apart from the underwater pictures were shot with the Pro1; the underwater pictures were shot with the S70, which is also a very serious above-water compact.
I'm still sort of hoping that Canon will release a Pro2 within the next 6 months or so, with basically the same lens (f2.4-3.5 28-200 mm) with preferably smoother zooming, with IS, cleaner higher ISO (400 is enough). 8 MP is enough. The articulated swivel LCD is a dream which has given me many shots that would otherwise have been much more difficult. The internal EVF is perfectly usable, I never quite understood why people hate it so much, once you get used to it, it behaves very much like an ordinary SLR viewfinder with information overlaid, albeit with less resolution.
Purple fringing is not a great problem with this camera if you shoot RAW; it only shows up under very specific circumstances (twigs of bare trees spring to mind)but various types of chromatic aberration can be corrected quite successfully in Adobe Camera RAW.
I always shoot RAW and couldn't do without. The Pro1 shoots 4 frames in quick succession, but then dozes off for about 12 seconds to clear the buffer. It's a perfect combination with something like a Pentax 67ii set or a 4x5 field camera set (I have both).
Gerard Kingma
www.kingma.nu (http://www.kingma.nu)
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Well, perhaps you should think twice ref. DSLR? These days, the entry models are really small (Canon Rebels, Pentaxes, etc.), and coupled with a small prime lens (think 35 f/2, or the Pentax pancake lens), they are certainly not that big (compared with my 1V, that is...).
If you think film, a nice Nikon FM2/FM3 with the 45 pancake lens will go a long way too.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=80812\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The Nikon D40, available today in Japan, is also really compact.
Regards,
Bernard
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I'm still sort of hoping that Canon will release a Pro2 within the next 6 months or so, with basically the same lens (f2.4-3.5 28-200 mm) with preferably smoother zooming, with IS, cleaner higher ISO (400 is enough). 8 MP is enough. The articulated swivel LCD is a dream which has given me many shots that would otherwise have been much more difficult.
There are a lot of Sony afficionados who are hoping for a new "F" series with the same lens as the F828 (Carl Zeiss 28-200mm f2.0-2.8), reappearing in a new model, with the kind of features you mentioned above, in addition to the swivel body, the nightshot/nightframing and the Laser Hologram AF. Yes, that is an f/2.0 - f2.8 lens covering 28-200mm, which in a dSLR would weigh a TON.
I feel those cameras are as dead as the dodo bird, especially if they came with RAW, a dSLR sized buffer, hotshoe etc. Canon certainly will not bring out such a camera, since it will be too much temptation for people who might otherwise go for a 350/400D. Same logic applies to the Sony version, where they would not want to compromise the sales of their dSLR (READ: Cash cow) division.
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I'm surprised no-one has yet mentioned the Panasonic Lumix LX1 (or latest version thereof). Shoots raw, nice 16:9 aspect ratio; has many advanced features found in more expensive DSLRs, super-sharp Leica zoom lens; very small; built-in flash. Only two disadvantages from my experience: LCD screen hard to see in bright sunlight, and images often do need a noise clean-up - Noiseware does a beautiful job of this with almost imperceptible impact on fine detail.
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I recommend you take a look at the Sony R1. Great lense. live hiustogram, live preview, APS sized CMOS (10.3mp), RAW capable (though small buffer), Digicam (though a bit larger then most). Use as my primary after looking at all the DSLRs and hearing everyones techno talk. And as an added benefit you can probably pick on up in the $700/800 range now. Prints to 13x19 w/o any image degradation.
You can refer to my website for image quality: www.mitchdobrowner.com
Good luck with your search. - Mitch
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I recommend you take a look at the Sony R1. Great lense. live hiustogram, live preview, APS sized CMOS (10.3mp), RAW capable (though small buffer), Digicam (though a bit larger then most). Use as my primary after looking at all the DSLRs and hearing everyones techno talk. And as an added benefit you can probably pick on up in the $700/800 range now. Prints to 13x19 w/o any image degradation.
You can refer to my website for image quality: www.mitchdobrowner.com
Good luck with your search. - Mitch
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If the R1, then hurry. There is very little stock left, since Sony is essentially eliminating it from the lineup to prevent competition for their DSLR. It will also humiliate any of the cameras mentioned till now, for sheer image quality from its APS sized sensor. Fast focusing in low light is not its forte though.
Its luscious 24-120mm equiv Carl Zeiss lens is its biggest asset, especially since it covers the entire APS imaging circle. All the others mentioned till now are small-sensored cameras and thus cannot compare in any way, shape or form to the image quality of the R1.
[a href=\"http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sonydscr1/]http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sonydscr1/[/url]
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I sill haven't found a camera in this category that I prefer over the Panasonic LC1/Leica Digilux 2. It's "only" a 5mp camera, but it shoots RAW, has good manual controls and an outstanding lens. There are things I could quibble about (lack of optical viewfinder, lack of RAW buffer), but I have yet to find a replacement that I like better.
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Daniel Bell