Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Digital Cameras & Shooting Techniques => Topic started by: Gary Ferguson on September 27, 2006, 10:57:36 am
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Maybe we shouldn't expect any significant news from Canon at Photokina. This doesn't sound like someone with something up their sleeve.
“We announced many of our new products over the past few weeks to get the news out to retailers and consumers ahead of Photokina so that when they come to the show, they know what to look for,” said Canon spokeswoman Kirsten Abicht-Schubert.
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http://www.dpreview.com/articles/photokina2006/Canon/ (http://www.dpreview.com/articles/photokina2006/Canon/)
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I made it quite clear here a few weeks ago that there definately would not be anything more from Canon at Photokina, especially a new 1 Series.
But, no one wanted to believe it.
Michael
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I made it quite clear here a few weeks ago that there definately would not be anything more from Canon at Photokina, especially a new 1 Series.
But, no one wanted to believe it.
Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=77983\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Come on, Michael. Next you'll be telling us that there is no such thing as the Tooth Fairy or the Great Pumpkin, and you'll expect us to believe that, too.
-Eric
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I made it quite clear here a few weeks ago that there definately would not be anything more from Canon at Photokina, especially a new 1 Series.
But, no one wanted to believe it.
Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=77983\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think the reason why is that we're waiting for something significant from Canon. Canon has essentially done little in the past year or so. The "n" upgrade to the 1DMII, the 5D(nothing new there other than FF price point and FF is up for debate as to whether you want/like it or not), the ridiculous name change to the 20D(should have been an "N"). No answer to the poor WA performance, and little else of note lens-wise.
I get the feeling Canon is just coasting along right now.
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I think the reason why is that we're waiting for something significant from Canon. Canon has essentially done little in the past year or so. The "n" upgrade to the 1DMII, the 5D(nothing new there other than FF price point and FF is up for debate as to whether you want/like it or not), the ridiculous name change to the 20D(should have been an "N"). No answer to the poor WA performance, and little else of note lens-wise.
I get the feeling Canon is just coasting along right now.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78125\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I would call the 5D a big deal (It was a big deal). It's essentially fullframe cheap and attainable for those who've always craved it but couldn't afford it.
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I would call the 5D a big deal (It was a big deal). It's essentially fullframe cheap
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79103\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
At US$3,000, the 5D is not even close to being "cheap": it costs more than typical DSLRs by enough to buy a top of the line EOS-1 family film camera along with that DSLR, and nobody ever called EOS-1's "cheap".
The 5D came in at $500 less than the Kodak SLR/n and SLR/c wer a few months earlier, and with better quality in many ways, so "improved quality in an entry level 35mm format DSLR" was the main 5D news, not greatly reduced price.
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I think the reason why is that we're waiting for something significant from Canon. Canon has essentially done little in the past year or so. The "n" upgrade to the 1DMII, the 5D(nothing new there other than FF price point and FF is up for debate as to whether you want/like it or not), the ridiculous name change to the 20D(should have been an "N"). No answer to the poor WA performance, and little else of note lens-wise.
I get the feeling Canon is just coasting along right now.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78125\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I would tend to agree that Canon seems to be coasting- although they may be saving their powder for the right moment to release some new pro model cameras. The race to release ever higher megapixel cameras may be reaching the limit. Canon's only real competition at the high megapixel pro level is from medium format backs and DSLR's (yes Michael, they are called DSLR's too!) and some of those players are starting to catch up- Pentax will be interesting to watch with their new 645 digital. Mamiya if they can ever get their act together. All this might start to chip away at Canon "the pro camera godzilla", especially as there is a large installed base of Pentax 645 and 67 and Mamiya camera and lens owners out there still.
Whereas, 6 months ago I thought Canon was almost impossible to catch, now I think they are showing some vulnerability. Many folks will be disappointed with their rather flaccid showing at Photokina this year and will start to look at alternatives as the 1Ds Mk II continues to age. In my case, I still use a Pentax 67 AND a Canon 20D but I want to move to a pro camera and so I am looking seriously at Pentax. The other consideration is that there is a paucity of new Canon lenses that are able to resolve what the big megapixel sensors can produce. So we may get a 1DsIII but without a sufficient array of better lenses to go with it, what's the point?
I used to be a Nikon guy for over 25 years but sold the kit when the 20D came out. Now that I see Zeiss with several new lenses for the F mount, I am looking at Nikon again with new eyes. The point being, that Canon's "coasting" may very well cost them dearly as different and exciting alternatives to Canon pro level equipment appear.
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I used to be a Nikon guy for over 25 years but sold the kit when the 20D came out. Now that I see Zeiss with several new lenses for the F mount, I am looking at Nikon again with new eyes. The point being, that Canon's "coasting" may very well cost them dearly as different and exciting alternatives to Canon pro level equipment appear.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79122\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
If could be argued that the 1ds2 was only a minor model change compared to the 1ds. A little bit more detail (but not 1.5 times more as the resolution gap might have suggeste), some long overdue interface enhancements that closed a bit the gap with Nikon D2 series and that's basically it.
Looking at the big picture, Canon hasn't released anything significant technologically for 4 years. They must be working on a paradigm shift, or have come to realize that the big money is in the consumer arena.
Speaking of high end, many sources seem to indicate that Nikon has been working for a long time on FF sensor Pro bodies, and my personnal guess is that 07 is the target year for its release along with suitable lenses. Considering how solid all Nikon entries have been in the past years, I expect that we won't be disapointed by their proposal.
As a result, we might end up in a situation where the Canon lead - that used to be about 2 years for some users for whom FF was key - will have been reduced to a mere few months.
I would personnally prefer Nikon to keep working on the DX line with a 20MP D3x, but I don't see this happening. It would be the best for my landscape needs though.
Regards,
Bernard
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Bernard
Coincidentally my salesman at one of Toronto's largest retailers this week said he believes that Nikon is coming out with a FF model to compete with the Canon 5D.
Ken
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Michael, but you do know that the New 1Ds is already ready. It has been tested in the field for the past couple of months. Since it looks just like a 1Dmk2N the rebadged cameras go unoticed.
If only car mfgs could do the same wiht new models they would save themselves a lot of effort in concealing new models when testing.
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Looking at the big picture, Canon hasn't released anything significant technologically for 4 years. They must be working on a paradigm shift, or have come to realize that the big money is in the consumer arena.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79123\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Bernard:
I think that the big money is not in the consumer area, at least in the digicam market. This has rapidly become a commodity market with severe competition and low margins. Witness Canon's losing market share to Sony and Panasonic in this segment. The money is in the middle pro-sumer market in my estimation and in the high end. My thought is that you are right that they are working on some kind of major step forward because if they are not, they are in danger of losing the big lead they had until earlier this year. For me, I will wait and see what happens until next March- by then things should be more clear.
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Bernard:
I think that the big money is not in the consumer area, at least in the digicam market. This has rapidly become a commodity market with severe competition and low margins. Witness Canon's losing market share to Sony and Panasonic in this segment. The money is in the middle pro-sumer market in my estimation and in the high end. My thought is that you are right that they are working on some kind of major step forward because if they are not, they are in danger of losing the big lead they had until earlier this year. For me, I will wait and see what happens until next March- by then things should be more clear.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79153\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'm not so sure about the high-end but I agree that the 10MP prosumer battleground e.g. D80, 400D and Alpha 100 is where the bulk of the profit will come in the next few years. Revenue from P&S's will help drive the business and profit from the high-end pro kit is nice but in absolute terms will not be as much. Rob Galbraith's site published a very interesting news item a while back that showed Sony grabbing huge amounts of market share from Canon in the Japanese DSLR market. Now with new entrants in the segment on the horizon it's going to be a case of who blinks first on price until someone makes a paradigm shift.
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Bernard says "many sources seem to indicate that Nikon has been working for a long time on FF sensor Pro bodies" and Kenneth says "my salesman at one of Toronto's largest retailers this week said he believes that Nikon is coming out with a FF model to compete with the Canon 5D".
Can anyone point to a reliable source for these claims that Nikon is preparing a 35mm format DSLR?
We have been hearing baseless speculations of imminent Nikon FF at least since the 1Ds and 14/n came out, and Nikon has recently again denied any such plans, and emphasized its commitment to DX as its sole digital SLR format. In the past Nikon reps once or twice talked about doing some research on 35mm format digital, but Nikon has not said anything like that for several years now AFAIK.
In particular, local salesmen will never have any such inside scoop. And as far as competing with the 5D, the D200 seems to be doing that extremely well, outsellng and outgrossing it by large margins, and thus probably generating far larger sales for fairly high level lenses. I suspect the D200 has caused the 5D to fall short of Canon's expected sales and profit levels. So maybe it is the other way around: Canon is working a new 10MP+ EF-S format camera to compete better with the D200.
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Bernard says "many sources seem to indicate that Nikon has been working for a long time on FF sensor Pro bodies" and Kenneth says "my salesman at one of Toronto's largest retailers this week said he believes that Nikon is coming out with a FF model to compete with the Canon 5D".
Can anyone point to a reliable source for these claims that Nikon is preparing a 35mm format DSLR?
We have been hearing baseless speculations of imminent Nikon FF at least since the 1Ds and 14/n came out, and Nikon has recently again denied any such plans, and emphasized its commitment to DX as its sole digital SLR format. In the past Nikon reps once or twice talked about doing some research on 35mm format digital, but Nikon has not said anything like that for several years now AFAIK.
In particular, local salesmen will never have any such inside scoop. And as far as competing with the 5D, the D200 seems to be doing that extremely well, outsellng and outgrossing it by large margins, and thus probably generating far larger sales for fairly high level lenses. I suspect the D200 has caused the 5D to fall short of Canon's expected sales and profit levels. So maybe it is the other way around: Canon is working a new 10MP+ EF-S format camera to compete better with the D200.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79203\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes, the reliable information comes from the CIA. Nothing but the best.
And I hope you are right. The 30D is a great camera, but doesn't hold water when compared to the D200.
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Yes, the reliable information comes from the CIA. Nothing but the best.
And I hope you are right. The 30D is a great camera, but doesn't hold water when compared to the D200.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79207\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
In the May issue of the German magazine ColorfFoto, Page 11 it reads that Mr. Yasuo Baba, Manager Professional Services Nikon GmbH says in an interview that in next 18 to 24 months Nikon will deliver a DSLR with full format sensor!!!!
Henk
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I'll say it again--the 5D was a big deal. It's price is comparatively cheap. I also don't think that the high end will ever be the cash cow of a company. Canon makes and sells more rebels than 1DsII much like BMW does with the 3-series verses the 7-series. Even more evident by the fact that the new tech is often put into the lower level cameras before finding its way into the 1series (mentioned by MR).
Even if the 1DsII is long in the tooth (byDSLR standards--though the D1X took waaay longer to be replaced) it's still king of DSLRs. So if you need it use it or start looking into the refurbished MF back market if you got to spend the cash now (which--if you really think abou it, is a smarter way to go).
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Bernard says "many sources seem to indicate that Nikon has been working for a long time on FF sensor Pro bodies" and Kenneth says "my salesman at one of Toronto's largest retailers this week said he believes that Nikon is coming out with a FF model to compete with the Canon 5D".
Can anyone point to a reliable source for these claims that Nikon is preparing a 35mm format DSLR?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79203\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi BJL,
I am afraid I don't have any links for you. Some of that comes from previous interviews with Nikon product managers where he was clearly stating that Nikon was working on such solutions (that was published on the net in Japanese - I believe during the PMA this year).
Other is some comments I have read in Japanese magazines, more is from Nikon Pro users I have come accross here in Japan. Nohing that you will call firm evidence obviously.
Cheers,
Bernard
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In the May issue of the German magazine ColorfFoto, Page 11 it reads that Mr. Yasuo Baba, Manager Professional Services Nikon GmbH says in an interview that in next 18 to 24 months Nikon will deliver a DSLR with full format sensor!!!!
Henk
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79233\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Eureka! I just figured out how Nikon can deliver on this "full format sensor" promise! All they have to do is redefine "full format", just the way Hassy just did. So hence forth, "full format" can mean whatever they want it to mean (like, for instance, the size of the D200 sensor.)
Like Hassy, it's just a metter of accepting Humpty Dumpty reasoning ("When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone. "It means just what I choose it to mean - neither more or less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master - that's all."
-- Lewis Carroll)
Eric
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I hope Canon gets more competition from Nikon.
Right now the lack of it allows Canon to delay the release of some cameras.
For example, the next 1Ds is ready and has been ready for months (has been tested in the field, rebadged as a 1D mk2n, looks identical) but Canon chose not to release it now and keep selling the current 1Ds mk2 for as long as they can.
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my understanding is that Canon understands their lens problem and plans to do something about it before or concurrently with release of the next generation professional camera mid next year
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In the May issue of the German magazine ColorfFoto, Page 11 it reads that Mr. Yasuo Baba, Manager Professional Services Nikon GmbH says in an interview that in next 18 to 24 months Nikon will deliver a DSLR with full format sensor!!!!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79233\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
That was a false rumor, debunked from the top in a statement from a VP of Nikon Japan. In that statement, the Nikon VP said that Nikon views 35mm as a film format only, and indicates clearly that Nikon intends DX to be its unique digital SLR format.
P.S. It makes no sense that if Nikon did have plans for such a major change, those plans would have been mentioned only by a regional manager in Germany, with no confirmation or corroboration from "head office".
P.P.S. ColorFoto got it very wrong before with a cover story claim several years ago that Nkon was about to launch a new DSLR system with a new larger lens mount instead of F mount. It does not rate as a reliable source with me.
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I'll say it again--the 5D was a big deal. It's price is comparatively cheap. I also don't think that the high end will ever be the cash cow of a company.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79238\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
With comparison to other Canon 24x36mm DSLR's and away from mainstream DSLR's, I agree. The 5D is to Canon's 24x36mm format like what the Boxter is to Porsche: distinctly less expensive and higher selling than previous models in those prestigious product lines, but not the slightest sign that 24x36mm digital or Porsche are going to move into the mainstream market.
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Looking at the FF DSLR market from an economic perspective, I suspect that even at $3-7K Canon is not making significant profits on its FF models. If Canon were making excess profit (supernormal profits) competitors would have rushed to this market segment to reap these profits with a predictable decline in price to a 'normal' level. If this were a significant market with high profits, we would have expected Sony to make its entry here first, and eventually migrate to the prosumer market. Sony's entry into the 10mp prosumer segment is a strong indicator of profit potential, and it should be no mystery to anyone why Canon and Nikon are not at war over the FF market. The benefit of producing these expensive and rather exotic cameras is much like that of racing to auto manufacturers. That is the development of technology for use in average products and the inestimable marketing benefits.
I am also fascinated at the disappointment of so many photographers that they must wait another year to chuck their existing DSLRs to spend thousands more on a new one! Could someone please explain the terrible deficiencies (other than costs) of the 5D, EOS 1Ds MkII, or the D2x? On the bright side, this bodes well for buyers of used equipment!
Cheers,
Scott
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I am also fascinated at the disappointment of so many photographers that they must wait another year to chuck their existing DSLRs to spend thousands more on a new one! Could someone please explain the terrible deficiencies (other than costs) of the 5D, EOS 1Ds MkII, or the D2x? On the bright side, this bodes well for buyers of used equipment!
Cheers,
Scott
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79328\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I, for one, am quite happy with my 5D, which I bought at a pretty good discount to replace my 10D, which did very well for me for a few years. The biggest reason I upgraded was to get the really big, clear viewfinder on the 5D! I expect to be able to live with that for quite a while.
Eric
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I, for one, am quite happy with my 5D, which I bought at a pretty good discount to replace my 10D, which did very well for me for a few years. The biggest reason I upgraded was to get the really big, clear viewfinder on the 5D! I expect to be able to live with that for quite a while.
Eric
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That was excactly my reason to upgrade from 10D to 5D plus the posibility of 17 inch printing. I got it 3 days ago and are happy aslo with the very good AF which is better than the 5D.
Henk
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I think you're all wrong. When Canon punches back against Nikon, we'll all be using the new 20MP full frame point and shoot, fixed lens 17-400 digital zomm that resolves better than a 70-200MML IS at all focal lengths and fits in your shirt pocket, with a small bulge for the 17-400 digital zoom. Price? Oh about 600.00 US. So now what? Huh punk?
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I think you're all wrong. When Canon punches back against Nikon, we'll all be using the new 20MP full frame point and shoot, fixed lens 17-400 digital zomm that resolves better than a 70-200MML IS at all focal lengths and fits in your shirt pocket, with a small bulge for the 17-400 digital zoom. Price? Oh about 600.00 US. So now what? Huh punk?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=80462\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
That 600.00 US is the "Mfrs Suggested Retail Price", right? So what's the street price?
Eric
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Dumb question. $499.00. of course!