Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: Damon Lynch on January 24, 2018, 10:54:17 pm
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The feeling of producing a quality print that meets one's expectations is truly wonderful, and I thank Lula for it's "back to the print" campaign.
However, this immensely satisfying feeling must now coexist with the knowledge that the current way of keeping the printer operational is contributing to an intensifying environmental disaster. The Financial Times has a very readable article (https://www.ft.com/content/30b30b1e-004a-11e8-9650-9c0ad2d7c5b5) on the topic of plastic pollution in general. In short, the problem is probably far worse than you might imagine, unless you've been paying close attention to the issue, in which case you know it already. The article links to an excellent set of fine art photos by Mandy Barker (https://mandy-barker.com/), whose work I was previously unfamiliar with.
All those plastic ink cartridges, the many plastic maintenance cartridges we go through -- the "use once, toss them out" model is now clearly proven to be unsustainable and in fact highly destructive. There has to be a better way.
May I request of the Lula team: can you please ask your contacts in the printer manufacturers what their plans are to confront this problem, and share the results with us in an article? The bottom line: we need to be able to refill printers with ink and run them without creating additional plastic waste. Even if they have nothing important to say today, I hope they will pass the request for information up the chain to the important decision-makers and planners.
While naturally the plastic used in printing pales in comparison to some other human activities, that's not the point: the point is that many product and consumption processes need to be done better, one industry at a time. And this is our industry, whether we are enthusiasts or pros.
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A factory ink cart recycling program seems like an efficient interim move. Have a cart recycle fee that is substantial enough to guarantee turn-in.
Rand
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Canon has their recycling program:
https://www.usa.canon.com/internet/portal/us/home/support/self-help-center/recycling-ink-cartridges
Epson has a less easy to use recycling program:
https://epson.com/recycle-program
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Damon, Interesting topic and something we seem to have not much about. I'm not sure there is a quick answer to what you bring up. I do have a meeting at the end of October with Epson and I can bring it up with Canon too. Maybe they are already considering the problem and have something to propose. Sorry, it has to wait that long but I am off to Antarctica and then a couple of other projects. I'll be meeting up with Epson and a number of other vendors at WPPI. Stay tuned it is going to be a busy month.
It has got me thinking though about the cartridges coming out of my Epson 9900 and P800. I'd estimate that with my usages I turn the cartridges over at least once a year on the 9900 and 3 times a year on the P800 and Pro1000. Multiply that by the thousands of printer out there and it is pretty significant.
The idea of recycling cartridges is an interesting idea.
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John, I had no idea about Canon's recycling program! I don't recall reading it in anywhere in Canon's documentation or marketing. I'll give the local FedEx shop a call tomorrow. The question remains, of course, if the use of plastic consumables can be eliminated. And until then what happens to these plastics destined for recycling? Are (were) they getting shipped to China, for instance?
Thanks much for your positive response, Kevin. Enjoy your Antarctica trip!
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If only there was some way of refilling a used cartridge with ink. What a breakthrough that would be for the environment.
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In Australia, all the major manufacturers are associated with a national cartridge recycling program:
http://cartridges.planetark.org/
Epson is also a full partner https://www.epson.com.au/news/press_releases_details.asp?ID=1164&Year=2017
On top of that, Epson, and now Canon and HP, also offer large, refillable tank models in the consumer range which drastically reduce the waste. In the large format space, you can purchase larger carts for many models and for some inks (dye sub, for example), numerous manufacturers have large tank solutions.
In the office space, Epson, for example, has a number of models with very large capacity ink bags "RIPS" models that do away with individual cartridges and reduce waste https://www.epson.com.au/products/printers_all_in_ones/printers_for_business_corporate/
So, all are doing something and some are already doing quite a lot.
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All those plastic ink cartridges, the many plastic maintenance cartridges we go through -- the "use once, toss them out" model is now clearly proven to be unsustainable and in fact highly destructive. There has to be a better way.
While not designed for fine art printing, Epson has made a move in the direction of refillable carts with their Ecotank printers (https://epson.com/ecotank-super-tank-printers)
I would think that fine art digital printing isn't nearly the cause of negative ecological impact than mainstream consumers/business printers are...but if these printers and the refillable printers catch on, I suspect we'll see it in the fine art printers too.
Epson also has a program Epson's Recycling Program (https://epson.com/recycle-program).
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+1
After quick Google search.
Canon UK – Recycle Canon Inkjet Cartridges (https://www.canon.co.uk/recycling/)
Wish I'd known about this years ago…
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Alas, the Canon program is only for their Pixma ink cartridges.
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if you look at the true economics of recycling, you'll find that for the VAST (!!!) majority of materials, it's economically un-viable and a fraud. Esp. true for complicated things w/ multiple materials (several types of plastics or metals etc).
Printer carts are less than a drop in the ocean when compared to all the junk we throw away.
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Printer carts are less than a drop in the ocean when compared to all the junk we throw away.
Quite true! Our county has a public recycling and waste transfer center. I've made several trips out there in recent weeks taking used and/or no longer functioning electronics. There are usually 1-2 others who are doing the same thing. Every visit shows large bins of computers, monitors, computer parts, etc that would dwarf the number of ink cartridges that are consumed each year. I assume that much of this stuff is shipped to the far east for recycling and or repurposing.
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The City of Toronto operates a fairly advanced garbage collection program disaggregated into three options: recyclables, compost and other garbage. Many plastics are acceptable for recycling. Perhaps a problem with expended ink cartridges is that they do or may contain residual ink and electronic chips which may not be recyclable and may pollute the process. The City has become somewhat aggressive about keeping unacceptable materials out of the recycling stream. So yes, we can put those ink tanks into recycling as part of the normal city operation, but should be mindful of what to do about residual ink and chips. I think the most efficient way of managing this waste could be through the normal operation of municipal waste programs if they can be configured to handle these cartridges.
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Mark, our county also collects recyclable plastics weekly. However, they are co-mingled in a bin with metal and glass and end up getting separated down the line. All plastics for recycling must be stamped with the appropriate code. I don't know whether inkjet cartridges are labeled for recycling and the presence of metal and ink in/on the cartridge would be an impediment to easy recycling
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What about plastic milk cartons. I go through three 1/2gal. containers per week and we have no recycling trash pick-ups. My Canon 8300 will average 5-6 700ml carts per year. I just save the empties.
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Epson has made re-using or refilling ink cartridges (and maintenance tanks!) basically impossible with their new computer chips/board on the latest generation of Epson Surecolor Printers. Epson wants to make sure you buy only new Epson products, and this does in effect, continue the cycle of waste into landfills. The maintenance tanks are the very same tanks going back to at least the old 9800. I have a half dozen new tanks that are now unusable on my new P9000 because of Epson's new "chips/motherboards." I used to recycle the cotton wadding and reset the chips on the maintenance tanks, but it is no longer possible. How's that for waste? ::) >:(
I buy ink from www.tastarsupply.com Not the best website, but once you get used to it, they have an excellent Epson ink cartridge recycling program that gives store credit back for each empty cartridge sent in. Always responsive and excellent customer service, too.
Ken
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The ink carts business model has long stuck in my craw. When a new printer costs less than the ink carts inside it, something is wrong. So, every printer I've owned (since the late nineties) has run third party inks in refillable carts or a CIS. I did this partly for cost reasons. I don't sell prints and my Epson 9800 made a lot of six foot wide canvases. And I did this partly because I wanted to fight back against his appalling practice.
I always said, "If the printer manufacturers make a printer with a built-in CIS, I'll buy one". With the "Eco Tank" printers, Epson did, so I bought one.
It took a little eBay shenanigans, but I ordered an Epson L805 from Taiwan. It's a six-ink 8 1/2" dye printer that makes superb prints. To reload the inks, I just squirt ink into the CIS from bottles of Epson ink. Since it's finally responsibly priced, I see no reason to seek third party inks for this printer. I absolutely love both the printer and the images it makes. If I cut sheets to the 8 1/2" width, I can print borderless panos in any length I choose.
Before you get started, yes, I know that dye inks are not "archival". But, I've had the printer for a year and several foam-core-mounted prints hanging in a sunny room show zero perceptible fade so far. YMMV.
Also, consider this: using the little Epson and "Kirkland Professional Glossy Inkjet Photo Paper", I can make a beautiful full bleed, letter sized print for about twenty cents.
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2380057.m570.l1311.R3.TR4.TRC1.A0.H0.XEpson+L805+.TRS0&_nkw=epson+l805+printer&_sacat=0
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+1
After quick Google search.
Canon UK – Recycle Canon Inkjet Cartridges (https://www.canon.co.uk/recycling/)
Wish I'd known about this years ago…
Thanks for that link, I have 16 qualifying empty cartriges on my desk so have ordered up the free postage paid return envelopes.
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I called Canon and they gave me this page (https://www.usa.canon.com/internet/portal/us/home/products/groups/supplies-inkcollection), titled "Supplies - Large-Format Ink Cartridge Collection Program". I assume it's not been updated to reflect the newer models of printers, but then again I'm assuming that only because the cartridges from my particular printer (Pro 1000) are not listed 8)
I wanted to submit a written request through Canon's online support form, but their site rejected my submission, claiming the zip code was wrong. Odd.
Assuming printer manufacturers want to effectively mandate the use of their inks but use refillable / reusable systems on these large printers, that strikes me as technology problem that can be solved, perhaps using different techniques from before.
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if you look at the true economics of recycling, you'll find that for the VAST (!!!) majority of materials, it's economically un-viable and a fraud. Esp. true for complicated things w/ multiple materials (several types of plastics or metals etc).
This probably depends on where you are. In Australia, there are technology stewardship requirements which essentially mean all of the printer companies are repsonsible for accepting back, and then recycling (documented, through approved EPA recyclers) and diverting from landfill for any product they sold, and at their cost.
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It's NEVER 'their cost'. They just pass it along to the consumer.
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Which as a responsible consumer we should accept.
Brian.
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HP has also had a recycling program for some time now. I am in the US.
Hp has a pretty extensive recycling program that not only includes used ink carts but also all kinds of hardware. I think the corporations are ahead of the consumers in a lot of ways. We're just spoiled and lazy.
https://h30248.www3.hp.com/recycle/supplies/choose-return-materials-hpe.asp?__cc=us&__la=en
Every ink cart that I order comes with a leak proof bag in which to return the ink cart to send them for recycling at their facility.
In most of of Asia and I believe the EU as well ( Europeans can better fill us in ) Epson and other desktop units have been required to use environmentally friendly solutions such as refillable carts to prevent landfill waste. This may be on a country by country basis, as national regulations vary. I just haven't researched it lately, it may be technologically in flux as to the local requirements. But I do know they were talked about a lot a few years ago when people were trying to import these printers into the US.
Obviously Epson was concerned about offering such a solution in the Americas as many users could easily take the next step of pouring 3rd party compatible inks into those carts. Epson being primarily an ink company, would fight that as long as possible. In their current photo printers they have gone so far as to put ink cart recognition software in the circuit boards that will permanently disable the total function of those printers when non Epson refillable carts are loaded into the printer. The days of resetting the chips on third party carts for refilling with Epson large format printers are over unless you replace major circuit boards, that even if doable, would void your warranty.
Right now third party companies still do sell refillable inkcarts for HP and Canon printers and the inks to put in them as well as carts that come already filled with compatible inks.
https://www.inkjetcarts.us
Personally I wouldn't use any of these color ink clones for reasons of longevity if nothing else. And since HP and Canon don't sell ink in bulk most of us don't consider that option, though some obviously do or they wouldn't be selling them.
In the case of all three companies I can understand their concern about these 3rd party refillable ink systems as they are ink selling companies not hardware companies. The smaller the ink carts the more the profit. And a huge percentage of us printmakers are not using their papers either ( except for the new rebranded Canson paper introduced recently, which was a smart move by the way.)
As Jeff mentioned Epson came out with an Eco desktop printer that they have advertised a lot this year, even on the radio, for the U S market that comes loaded with "a years worth" of ink. Then you return the printer for refilling. This currently seems to apply only to the low end amateur printers. That kind of situation is obviously impractical for large format printers or even any photo printers that crank out lots of media in a years time for professional or semi-professional art and design purposes.
So, if they want to help the environment, at a minimum they need convince users to recycle every cart and actually give us a credit on the next purchase to send them back. To me that seems the only way to convince the majority of people, especially Americans, to participate in the program. It's not rocket science. It's just common sense.
John
The feeling of producing a quality print that meets one's expectations is truly wonderful, and I thank Lula for it's "back to the print" campaign.
However, this immensely satisfying feeling must now coexist with the knowledge that the current way of keeping the printer operational is contributing to an intensifying environmental disaster. The Financial Times has a very readable article (https://www.ft.com/content/30b30b1e-004a-11e8-9650-9c0ad2d7c5b5) on the topic of plastic pollution in general. In short, the problem is probably far worse than you might imagine, unless you've been paying close attention to the issue, in which case you know it already. The article links to an excellent set of fine art photos by Mandy Barker (https://mandy-barker.com/), whose work I was previously unfamiliar with.
All those plastic ink cartridges, the many plastic maintenance cartridges we go through -- the "use once, toss them out" model is now clearly proven to be unsustainable and in fact highly destructive. There has to be a better way.
May I request of the Lula team: can you please ask your contacts in the printer manufacturers what their plans are to confront this problem, and share the results with us in an article? The bottom line: we need to be able to refill printers with ink and run them without creating additional plastic waste. Even if they have nothing important to say today, I hope they will pass the request for information up the chain to the important decision-makers and planners.
While naturally the plastic used in printing pales in comparison to some other human activities, that's not the point: the point is that many product and consumption processes need to be done better, one industry at a time. And this is our industry, whether we are enthusiasts or pros.
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It's NEVER 'their cost'. They just pass it along to the consumer.
To some degree, yes, but the market is extremely competitive and price sensitive. By and large, prices continued to decline (as is the trend in printers - particularly consumer) after introduction of stewardship requirements here in Australia. Of course, if many more people start using the services then costs might increase to the point that more needs to be passed back. The key, though, is that they are able to use significant volumes to make it worthwhile for recyclers to take the items which helps to reduce costs (they're certainly not being recycled for free).
As Brian says, though, as consumers we need to be prepared to accept those costs.
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Quite true! Our county has a public recycling and waste transfer center. I've made several trips out there in recent weeks taking used and/or no longer functioning electronics. There are usually 1-2 others who are doing the same thing. Every visit shows large bins of computers, monitors, computer parts, etc that would dwarf the number of ink cartridges that are consumed each year. I assume that much of this stuff is shipped to the far east for recycling and or repurposing.
Yes, that is our dirty secret, shipping our problems elsewhere. Many people getting sick taking apart chemical laden electronics for a living.
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Now that Canon has their EcoTank competitor I really really want to see an end to all home printing with the little cartridges. It comes down to a push by the retailers and manufacturers to push it and start increasing the prices for new ink on the old printers. I've been pushing the Epson ever since it came out - EcoTank is made for families where kids just want to hit print.
The recycle programs are all scrambling due to the changes in China's import laws around recyclable materials.
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Epson being primarily an ink company
Not true. In fact, I don't believe Epson actually makes the inks they sell. Seiko/Epson is primarily an engineering and hardware company.
Personally I wouldn't use any of these color ink clones for reasons of longevity
YMMV. I have used third party inks in nearly a dozen printers for nearly two decades. With pigment inks, fading is not an issue. Prints hung in direct sunshine in my residence show zero fading after more than ten years. More than I can say for my Cibachrome prints.
The smaller the ink carts the more the profit.
Absolutely true.
As Jeff mentioned Epson came out with an Eco desktop printer that they have advertised a lot this year, even on the radio, for the U S market that comes loaded with "a years worth" of ink. Then you return the printer for refilling. That kind of situation is obviously impractical for large format printers or even any photo printers
Not true. Eco Tank printers are user-refilled effortlessly from 70ml squeeze bottles. I own one. It makes superb prints, as I said in an earlier post on this thread.
It's not rocket science. It's just common sense.
Agreed. Common sense dictates that printers are easily and economically refilled by users. Unfortunately, business thinks otherwise.
What's really stupid about the carts business model from the customer's point of view is that they inhibit the very purpose of the device in the first place - PRINTING.
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Not true. In fact, I don't believe Epson actually makes the inks they sell. Seiko/Epson is primarily an engineering and hardware company.
Epson develops and produces their own inks - aqueous dye and pigment, solvent, dye sub, direct to fabric, and so on.
Not true. Eco Tank printers are user-refilled effortlessly from 70ml squeeze bottles. I own one. It makes superb prints, as I said in an earlier post on this thread.
The second generation models also offer keyed bottles (can't put the wrong colour in) and basically drop-free - no mess. There really isn't a downside and as someone mentioned for families with kids printing all the time, or small office environments (or large ones where you get the ink bag models that have up to 80,000 prints worth of ink) it makes so much sense.
Agreed. Common sense dictates that printers are easily and economically refilled by users. Unfortunately, business thinks otherwise.
Smaller carts don't equal bigger profits. There are huge costs for manufacturer and shipping and storage for small carts compared to large ones or tanks, but maintaining control over quality and consistency is also harder with larger supplies (making sure the ink is good on day one and in 2 years time). Of course, businesses also need to change manufacturing lines and printer designs and so on, AND overcome a consumer mentality of wanting to buy the cheapest possible product - i.e. get them to recognise the value in having up to 2 years' worth of ink at time of purchase, even though it's a larger outlay to begin with (it's definitely cheaper in the long run).
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South Korea is an interesting case. Third party inks are the most commonly used there and they have a strong manufacturing base with companies like InkTec who manufacture their own design LF printers and inks including dye sublimation, water-based dye & pigment, solvent, eco solvent, mild solvent, oil inks and conductive inks for electronics.
I'm not sure that such a source isn't up to scratch on all metrics.
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There are ways to encourage plastics recycling, namely by taxing their use and giving a credit for recycling. The level of taxation should high enough to encourage participation. Part of the tax revenue could be used for environmental remediation. I suspect the current political environment in the US is unfavorable to such an approach and would be politically unpalatable, but it won't always be so. California and New York, which together have about 20% of the US population, could mandate such a plan and that would force manufacturers to implement it nation wide. BTW, I absolutely detest styrofoam packing material, that should be first on the list of things to go...
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I refill my carts many times. At least for wide format Epson printers, there are very good refillable cartridges. I'm not sure what the situation is for desktop thermal printers, but encouraging re-use of refillable cartridges would seem one way to lessen the pollution problem.
Paul
www.PaulRoark.com
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Yea you got that right. For the most part the only reason any of these three companies are providing these recycling programs is because they are global companies that do big business in Europe, Japan and Australia where it is mandatory . And yes, California, New York, Oregon, and Washington are separate countries as well with their own environmental laws.
There are ways to encourage plastics recycling, namely by taxing their use and giving a credit for recycling. The level of taxation should high enough to encourage participation. Part of the tax revenue could be used for environmental remediation. I suspect the current political environment in the US is unfavorable to such an approach and would be politically unpalatable, but it won't always be so. California and New York, which together have about 20% of the US population, could mandate such a plan and that would force manufacturers to implement it nation wide. BTW, I absolutely detest styrofoam packing material, that should be first on the list of things to go...
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In Australia, all the major manufacturers are associated with a national cartridge recycling program:
Yes and this has been going on for at least 10 years.
And not just printer cartridges but almost everything like plastic bottles can be recycled and usually collected by the local council.
Perhaps there are countries that don't have recycling?
Maybe there are countries that still use paper money, 1c coins and 7 digit phone numbers too? (:-)
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Well there are all kinds of "recycling" . I have curbside recycling that I pay extra for in Atlanta that collects my inkjet rag papers, cans, glass, and plastics. Now where this ends up is a totally differient matter. A lot of plastic bottles and glass bottles do get reused as new products and probably a lot of it doesn't depending on the type of plastic. But I would say the majority of this kind of waste still ends up in the landfills because there is no requirement that we recycle at all. It's all left up to local governments. Still kind of a third world attitude.
In the case of these HP inkcarts when sent back to Hp in their bags, they go directly to a specific warehouse that they say is set up to reformulate into new hp inkcarts. That's what they say. I've saved all my Canon inkcarts and it is time to box them up and send back to Canon. My Epson has refillable carts for bw process.
But as far as any local or federal government regulation that has passed to keep these kinds of industrial products out of the landfill ...it doesn't exist in most US states.
Yes and this has been going on for at least 10 years.
And not just printer cartridges but almost everything like plastic bottles can be recycled and usually collected by the local council.
Perhaps there are countries that don't have recycling?
Maybe there are countries that still use paper money, 1c coins and 7 digit phone numbers too? (:-)
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When Richard Pratt took Visy to New York in the early 1990's the shopkeepers had to pay to have cardboard boxes removed. It was basically controlled by organised crime. He offered to pay the shopkeepers for the cardboard instead. Recycling made him one of the richest people in the world.
It is just a mindset really.
https://www.visy.com.au/about/our-history/