Luminous Landscape Forum

Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: gdsf2 on January 20, 2018, 02:21:37 pm

Title: Matt paper with large gamut
Post by: gdsf2 on January 20, 2018, 02:21:37 pm: Hi all,

I am looking for a smooth rag matt paper, no OBAs, that has a wide gamut. As close to satin while staying matt (if that makes sense).

I print on a Canon Pro-1000.

Thanks,

Jerry
Title: Re: Matt paper with large gamut
Post by: Mark D Segal on January 20, 2018, 02:22:49 pm: Canon Premium Fine Art Smooth. I reviewed it in my review of the Canon Pro-2000 printer on this website.
Title: Re: Matt paper with large gamut
Post by: gdsf2 on January 20, 2018, 02:34:02 pm: Thanks Mark, I just read your article.

I looked online. Does not seem like they sell much of this fine paper. Heavily discounted already in smaller sheet form. Not that I am complaining about discounts. I may try it.

Still open to other suggestions.

Jerry
Title: Re: Matt paper with large gamut
Post by: Panagiotis on January 20, 2018, 03:21:52 pm: I read Mark's review also and I ordered a pack of Fine Art Smooth. I am expecting it soon.

Quote from: gdsf2 on January 20, 2018, 02:21:37 pm
As close to satin while staying matt (if that makes sense).

This requirement reminds me something. When I started printing a year ago I didn't know anything about papers so I bought many sample packs. I printed (on the PRO-1000) almost all the a4 sheets with the outback evaluation image for color and keith cooper's evaluation image for bw. Among all I noticed two "strange" papers the Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Satin and Permajet Smooth Art Silk 300 (now it's replaced by Permajet Photo Art Silk 290). These papers are like matt papers but when printed they get a sheen which is surprising. The Hahnemuhle sheen is brownish. I don't know their other properties nor I have experience with them other than the four sheets from the sample packs.
Title: Re: Matt paper with large gamut
Post by: unesco on January 20, 2018, 04:42:57 pm: There is another one: Solution Photo White Satin 270. All three (HM, Permajet and Solution) have a layer of wax on top making it matt in whites (no ink covered) and a bit satin when ink density increases. It has a little bit deeper blacks and wider gamut than pure mat rags. Only HM Photo Rag Satin has no OBA. Great paper.
Title: Re: Matt paper with large gamut
Post by: MHMG on January 20, 2018, 06:24:05 pm: Quote from: unesco on January 20, 2018, 04:42:57 pm
... Only HM Photo Rag Satin has no OBA. Great paper.

HM Photo Rag Satin has OBAs in the paper core, but not in the ink receptor coating...very similar to other HN papers like Photo Rag. Because there are no OBAs in the coating the media fluorescence as seen by the viewer is relatively low, and it serves mainly to trim the media whitepoint b* value by about 2.0 b* units, thus resulting in an essentially neutral whitepoint to the observer when measured for D50 viewing condition and ISO 13655-2009 "M0" spectrophotometer illuminant specification. Hahnemuhle's papers that use a restrained use of OBAs only in the paper core generally exhibit reasonable media whitepoint stability over time, albeit not always quite as good as the best OBA-free fine art media.

regards,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
Title: Re: Matt paper with large gamut
Post by: henrikolsen on January 21, 2018, 07:34:46 am: I can definately vote for Hahnemühle Photo Rag Satin for a really great paper, especially well suited for the requirement of "As close to satin while staying matt" with it's rather special wax surface. Think it has a wonderful deep/rich/full glow that normal spectro data doesn't convey, but needs to be observed in real life, whatever that's worth - a little hard to explain, but reminding me again how important real life tests are. Interesting to learn that Permajet has that paper as well, wasn't aware of that. Thanks.
Title: Re: Matt paper with large gamut
Post by: gdsf2 on January 21, 2018, 11:34:11 am: I am sorry, I should have been more clear. When I said “as close to satin while still being matt” I was talking about gamut size and blacks, not sheen.

I am just looking for a smooth rag matt paper, with no OBAs, that has a large gamut and deep blacks.

Thanks,

Jerry
Title: Re: Matt paper with large gamut
Post by: Mark D Segal on January 21, 2018, 02:38:34 pm: Quote from: gdsf2 on January 21, 2018, 11:34:11 am
I am sorry, I should have been more clear. When I said “as close to satin while still being matt” I was talking about gamut size and blacks, not sheen.

I am just looking for a smooth rag matt paper, with no OBAs, that has a large gamut and deep blacks.

Thanks,

Jerry

Yes, I understood that and recommended accordingly, but please be aware that no matte paper will provide the gamut of a luster paper. The only issue is whether the gamut is satisfactory for the purposes. Black shading appearance is tricky - depending on how the paper is made, the appearance of Maximum Black can vary regardless of what the numbers show when it's measured with a spectrophotometer - I've published here on this matter. This is where the Canon Premium Fine Art Smooth is truly advantageous. Another route to deeper Black shading appearance with a variety of matte papers would to get custom M3 profiles made, about which I have also written for this website.
Title: Re: Matt paper with large gamut
Post by: rasworth on January 21, 2018, 04:43:55 pm: Mark,

Based upon your description of Canon Premium Fine Art Smooth, I am interested in trying it on my Epson 3880. Do pigment inks sink in far enough so there is no surface effect? B&H has 8.5x11 at a very reasonable price, have been looking for a relatively inexpensive high quality matte paper, would create a custom profile using the Epson 3880 setting for UltraSmooth Fine Art.

Thanks,

Richard Southworth
Title: Re: Matt paper with large gamut
Post by: Mark D Segal on January 21, 2018, 04:57:25 pm: Richard,

It is specifically designed for pigment inks. I don't know how far they sink or not, and I don't examine prints from angles other than how they should be normally viewed, so I can't comment reliably on "surface efffects". The prints I made with it were 17*22 inch in a Canon Pro-1000 and viewed the normal way of looking at prints the results were outstanding. I agree that a custom profile would be the only way to go with this one, but I'm not sure about the best Media Type. I think something like Epson Legacy Fibre may be the closest match.
Title: Re: Matt paper with large gamut
Post by: rasworth on January 21, 2018, 06:29:07 pm: Mark,

Fair enough, thanks. For $22 and change I'm going to give it a shot. Will provide my results.

Given the L* Black values in your review I would think it would match up better with UltraSmooth Fine Art rather than Legacy Baryta? I've profiled Legacy for my 3880, obtained L* values near 5.

Richard Southworth

Added by edit - Also Legacy is a PK type black, I assume the Canon paper is MK?
Title: Re: Matt paper with large gamut
Post by: Mark D Segal on January 21, 2018, 06:31:21 pm: Not Legacy Baryta. I suggested Legacy Fibre.
Title: Re: Matt paper with large gamut
Post by: rasworth on January 21, 2018, 07:31:43 pm: Oops, sorry about that.

Richard Southworth
Title: Re: Matt paper with large gamut
Post by: John Caldwell on January 22, 2018, 05:06:23 pm: HFA Photo Rag Satin, already mentioned, has huge gamut and Dmax, but the surface is not for everyone or every image. Epson Hot and Cold Press papers are very impressive wrt Dmax and gamut, but they are in no way satin-like, and are more traditional heavy fine art papers. My personal favorites are BFK Rives and HFA Museum Etching, but that’s not really a matter of gamut.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Matt paper with large gamut
Post by: gdsf2 on January 22, 2018, 06:07:32 pm: Thanks all, especially Mark. I purchased the Canon Premium Fine Art Smooth. It is half off (letter size and 13x19) at B&H now. Given the price, I bought two boxes of each. Hope I like it. :D

The 17x22 is still full price so I will hold on that until I know I like it.

Jerry
Title: Re: Matt paper with large gamut
Post by: Mark D Segal on January 22, 2018, 07:51:12 pm: Thanks for the heads-up on the B&H pricing. I just ordered a couple of boxes too. Even shipping to Canada isn't too bad considering it's a heavy item.
Title: Re: Matt paper with large gamut
Post by: unesco on January 24, 2018, 01:57:07 pm: Quote from: MHMG on January 20, 2018, 06:24:05 pm
HM Photo Rag Satin has OBAs in the paper core, but not in the ink receptor coating...very similar to other HN papers like Photo Rag. Because there are no OBAs in the coating the media fluorescence as seen by the viewer is relatively low, and it serves mainly to trim the media whitepoint b* value by about 2.0 b* units, thus resulting in an essentially neutral whitepoint to the observer when measured for D50 viewing condition and ISO 13655-2009 "M0" spectrophotometer illuminant specification. Hahnemuhle's papers that use a restrained use of OBAs only in the paper core generally exhibit reasonable media whitepoint stability over time, albeit not always quite as good as the best OBA-free fine art media.

yes, you are absolutely right, it was simplification from my side, just because Permajet and Solution are OBA rich
Title: Re: Matt paper with large gamut
Post by: stockjock on January 25, 2018, 10:50:13 pm: Quote from: gdsf2 on January 22, 2018, 06:07:32 pm
Thanks all, especially Mark. I purchased the Canon Premium Fine Art Smooth. It is half off (letter size and 13x19) at B&H now. Given the price, I bought two boxes of each. Hope I like it. :D

The 17x22 is still full price so I will hold on that until I know I like it.

Jerry

I also took advantage of the sale on the 13x19" box of the Canon Premium Fine Art Smooth. Paper came today and my first test print looks to be on par with the Canson Rag Photographique which has been my favorite matte paper. Great price for the 13x19" paper at B&H. Now I'm just keeping my fingers crossed the 17x22" size comes down in price at some point too. I'm interested in hearing your thoughts.
Title: Re: Matt paper with large gamut
Post by: gdsf2 on January 27, 2018, 10:46:56 am: I agree. Canon Premium Fine Rt Smooth fits the bill. I am happy.
Title: Re: Matt paper with large gamut
Post by: pikeys on January 27, 2018, 11:33:52 am: Quote from: rasworth on January 21, 2018, 04:43:55 pm
Mark,

Based upon your description of Canon Premium Fine Art Smooth, I am interested in trying it on my Epson 3880. Do pigment inks sink in far enough so there is no surface effect? B&H has 8.5x11 at a very reasonable price, have been looking for a relatively inexpensive high quality matte paper, would create a custom profile using the Epson 3880 setting for UltraSmooth Fine Art.

Thanks,

Richard Southworth

I also picked some up at B&H,and made a few prints with it,I liked it alot.
IMHO,it has a wide color gamut,excellent price,it is a little thick-310g/m2,82plds.,however.

MikeS
Title: Re: Matt paper with large gamut
Post by: rasworth on January 27, 2018, 11:36:02 am: Received my B&H order of Canon Premium Fine Art Smooth yesterday, printed out a 1215 patch target (i1Profiler auto generated). Just created a profile for my Epson 3880, using Epson UltraSmooth Fine Art for the media settings. Profile internals look good (see attachment), test print good. Similar appearance to Epson UltraSmooth, at the B&H present prices this paper is IMO a bargain.

Thanks to Mark for his recommendation.

Richard Southworth