Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: eronald on November 30, 2017, 11:20:12 am
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https://www.dpreview.com/news/9955669595/hasselbald-launches-its-own-online-store-offers-5-off-for-a-limited-time
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Interesting! Dealer support is of critical importance to me. In the case of Phase One, I find their customer support sorely lacking but DT provides all the support I need. I'm not sure that camera manufactures have the DNA to really support customers.
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I would rather support a dealer who supports me in return.
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Makes sense.
I don’t see why X1D customers would benefit more or less from dealers than D850 users would.
Even for the H6D, unless you use it on a tech camera it is self-explanatory and just works.
A key role of dealers during the CCD era was to convince their customers that the inferior real DR of their 40,000 US$ back compared to 3,000 US$ Nikons was in fact a great spec of their camera. ;D This isn’t needed any longer with CMOS backs.
Now good dealers can have great value for mission critical pro customers, but not for Chinese hobbyists whi just want to show off and prefer the ease of online stores where impulsive purchases are just one click away.
Cheers,
Bernard
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I have had a couple of instances where I had problems in the field and dealers sent replacements over night. One was with a Nikon and one was with a Phase One. Not sure any manufacturer is going to provide that level of service. While that might not be important to some it's important to me.
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If the web store works well, I could imagine that in time Hassy could move to a direct sales model for the "small" X1D, and lower the price substantially.
Edmund
Makes sense.
I don’t see why X1D customers would benefit more or less from dealers than D850 users would.
Even for the H6D, unless you use it on a tech camera it is self-explanatory and just works.
A key role of dealers during the CCD era was to convince their customers that the inferior real DR of their 40,000 US$ back compared to 3,000 US$ Nikons was in fact a great spec of their camera. ;D This isn’t needed any longer with CMOS backs.
Now good dealers can have great value for mission critical pro customers, but not for Chinese hobbyists whi just want to show off and prefer the ease of online stores where impulsive purchases are just one click away.
Cheers,
Bernard
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I don’t see why X1D customers would benefit more or less from dealers than D850 users would.
Nikon/Canon do offer Professional Services that in MF, pro dealers typically have to step up for.
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Nikon/Canon do offer Professional Services that in MF, pro dealers typically have to step up for.
Here in France, whatever the manufacturer, service quality depends on who you are.
I handed a new pro body in to Nikon once for a viewfinder tilt adjustment. As it came back, I told the tech at the counter to take a picture to check the camera- he pointed it at a Nikon Service notice, took a picture, looked at it and said "this is rather unsharp". So I said "ok you've seen it's unsharp, now please fix it". Guy answered "I can't do that, you need to hand in a file to prove that the camera is not ok". Of course it wasn't about not doing the warranty fix, it was about making sure I was at the back of the queue as I deserved to be without a pro id. The fact that you've paid $XXXX for the camera doesn't mean that you deserve a precisely adjusted body. I'm not the only one who got these games, Stephen Eastwood told me a similar problem in NY about display color issues when I interviewed him, except that the maker was Canon, I think. Under warranty it was "impossible", when he became an Explorer of Light, the reps got the cameras adjusted.
Edmund
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In my case a Capture Intergration representative came to my house to deliver the camera and tutor me in Capture One and the use of the Phase One 100 megapixel camera. He stayed for three hours until I felt secure with my ability to use the camera. Truthfully I would not have bought the camera without that personal service.
Medium format is not a Nikon...I have three Nikons and they have a purpose...medium format requires a different learning curve that requires personal attention
Chris Snipes, the CI representative, has also excelled in service after the sale.
I have emailed him numerous times with questions; he has responded usually within the same hour with a solution.
IMHO buying a medium format camera online makes no sense
Stanley
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I would be interested in hearing how you think your XF differs from your Nikon?
Thank you.
Cheers,
Bernard
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i have owned several DMF backs and way too many other cameras to remember but i don't see or understand why DMF needs more or less handholding or service? on the contrary, every DMF system i have owned has been pretty straight forward in terms of use and handling, some other cameras i have owned probably should have come with a personal instructor since their menus and options are over the top.....
hasselblad understands that the only way to survive in the long run is to maintain a fine line between professional system and luxury item (like leica) and they also understand that they might get away with charging a certain premium but lets face it: the same sensor and similar quality lens has to be within a certain range....
i think it is a good move by hasselblad, i don't think any of the available dealers will really care all that much and anything that helps keeping another DMF maker stay in business and keeps competition healthy is fine with me....
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I would say: "Bye Bye Online Dealers". Even before Hasselblad's latest move, people could choose to buy from a local dealer or from an online store. Those who decided to support the local dealers would continue to support local dealers for the same reasons they avoided online dealers before. Those who want to buy online have now an additional source: Hasselblad's online store.
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I would say: "Bye Bye Online Dealers". Even before Hasselblad's latest move, people could choose to buy from a local dealer or from an online store. Those who decided to support the local dealers would continue to support local dealers for the same reasons they avoided online dealers before. Those who want to buy online have now an additional source: Hasselblad's online store.
You are completely right.
Edmund
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Hasselblad H6D-50C User Manual: 181 pages
Hasselblad X1D User Manual: 124 pages
Nikon D850 Manual: 400 pages
Which needs more handholding?
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Hasselblad H6D-50C User Manual: 181 pages
Hasselblad X1D User Manual: 124 pages
Nikon D850 Manual: 400 pages
Which needs more handholding?
So true.
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Hasselblad H6D-50C User Manual: 181 pages
Hasselblad X1D User Manual: 124 pages
Nikon D850 Manual: 400 pages
Which needs more handholding?
The H manual lacks in depth explanations concerning its features and practical examples, the few examples they do offer are no more than one paragraph in length.
The manual also would be more complete if firmware additions were completed instead of remaining on the to do list. This list has 25 feature that could be implemented which would make the system second to none...please email your favorite H employee or anyone having influence to get these requests facilitated.
Also the technical articles if added to the manual would increase its size, however even so those articulate are limited and also need to be brought up to date.
Nikon has lots of automation, many more features crammed into its DNA and the H bodies are very capable of producing similar results but your on your own with the work arounds and the timing issues!
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Hasselblad H6D-50C User Manual: 181 pages
Hasselblad X1D User Manual: 124 pages
Nikon D850 Manual: 400 pages
IMO if the only Value your Value Added Reseller is providing can be readily replaced by reading the manual then you have a decidedly deficient dealer with whom you should be done.
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IMO if the only Value your Value Added Reseller is providing can be readily replaced by reading the manual then you have a decidedly deficient dealer with whom you should be done.
I posted to provoke and am surprised no one has picked up that if a camera needs a 400 page manual the chances of using it to its full potential is rather vanishingly small IMHO.
I have never read the manual for my Leica M2 and it works surprisingly well, mine doesn't have a self timer so that's one complication less as well 8)
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IMO if the only Value your Value Added Reseller is providing can be readily replaced by reading the manual then you have a decidedly deficient dealer with whom you should be done.
I used to special order esoteric tech books at a Paris bookseller many years ago. I’d phone and they’d never be there. One day I saw my books on display on a shelf dead opposite the entrance: The shop was selling them, reordering, selling again, reordering, and if the books stayed there for a bit longer they’d call me and deliver my (unsaleable) copy.
But I needed those books for my PhD. In fact I’d already paid for them.
I never bought a book there again.
In the photo trade what the dealer does is sell you the lens that has already been rejected as unsharp by a “pro”, which is why a lens bought from him by a random buyer will never be good. My Nikon dealer in Germany was honest, he said he had people test the lenses on location, and usually sent two out of three back; a Paris dealer will just sell all three, one to a “pro” and the other two to suckers. If the sucker returns the lens it will go to another sucker and in the end maybe to an institution.
Dealers have all sorts of tricks to make money; the interests of their customers come last. Many of the customer service issues we hear about actually come from bad dealer behaviour - buy from B&H or another big house and you’ll have a better chance of stuff that works out of the box.
Edmund
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I posted to provoke and am surprised no one has picked up that if a camera needs a 400 page manual the chances of using it to its full potential is rather vanishingly small IMHO.
I have never read the manual for my Leica M2 and it works surprisingly well, mine doesn't have a self timer so that's one complication less as well 8)
That's a reflection of one of photography's problems: far too many features that take digital recording almost right out of photography, if you let it.
My old Nikons have a pile of functions I have never used, don't want to use and can't imagine ever wanting to use. As a direct result, the manuals remain mostly unread, and as the bodies are set to be as manual as possible, the odd time something goes out of whack, usually my own damned fault, it means a hunt through the books in order to discover what the hell I did this time. As for ever getting the entire camera into my mind - I hope never: life is already becoming too complex for my happiness!
Shame that such a simple, intuitive process as making a photograph has turned into a technician's paradise rather than an artist's brush.
Rob C
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Hi,
If you understand the physics behind photography, you may not need to read the manual, as 75 % of the manual just states the obvious.
I would agree, 95% of the times, dealers are not needed.
But, I would agree. When I bought my P45+ the main dealer in Sweden did know nothing about Phase One backs. But, there was a real dealer somewhere in the archipelago of Sweden who knew everything about sync cables and viewfinder masks.
It seems that a lot of good info is coming from Capture Integration, mostly due to Steve Hendrix. Would I live in the US, i would go to CI and asking for Steve. But, I don't live in the US...
Best regards
Erik
That's a reflection of one of photography's problems: far too many features that take digital recording almost right out of photography, if you let it.
My old Nikons have a pile of functions I have never used, don't want to use and can't imagine ever wanting to use. As a direct result, the manuals remain mostly unread, and as the bodies are set to be as manual as possible, the odd time something goes out of whack, usually my own damned fault, it means a hunt through the books in order to discover what the hell I did this time. As for ever getting the entire camera into my mind - I hope never: life is already becoming too complex for my happiness!
Shame that such a simple, intuitive process as making a photograph has turned into a technician's paradise rather than an artist's brush.
Rob C
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Hi,
If you understand the physics behind photography, you may not need to read the manual, as 75 % of the manual just states the obvious.
I would agree, 95% of the times, dealers are not needed.
But, I would agree. When I bought my P45+ the main dealer in Sweden did know nothing about Phase One backs. But, there was a real dealer somewhere in the archipelago of Sweden who knew everything about sync cables and viewfinder masks.
It seems that a lot of good info is coming from Capture Integration, mostly due to Steve Hendrix. Would I live in the US, i would go to CI and asking for Steve. But, I don't live in the US...
Best regards
Erik
I"m certainly not saying dealers are not needed: quite the contrary, in that I think them essential; it's the closing of so many due to the Internet-based outlets that annoys me because it makes contact difficult.
My problem is it's the cameras have become too smart; consequently the manuals have become huge just to help people work their way around the functions they might have to learn, and which I am happy to ignore, most of the time. I like photography simple, just like my needs from photography.
Rob
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I"m certainly not saying dealers are not needed: quite the contrary, in that I think them essential; it's the closing of so many due to the Internet-based outlets that annoys me because it makes contact difficult.
My problem is it's the cameras have become too smart; consequently the manuals have become huge just to help people work their way around the functions they might have to learn, and which I am happy to ignore, most of the time. I like photography simple, just like my needs from photography.
Rob
It depends on the camera. The little Sony's and Olympus takes an online manual and notepad to set the menu.
My contax/phase backs are like film. Pop it on, set the speed, wb, turn the camera nobs and shoot.
Nothing can be more complicated than a digital cinema camera, (some makes) but acclaimed dp's like Roger Deakins shoots with the same set up all the time and uses one or two luts for base color on every movie he shoots.
With my older RED 1s I have used them for years, so in pre production, I set them up, match them, build my own look in cameras and tell any b or c operator, or assistant operator not to touch anything other than the t stops and the record button. They always do, but I always catch it.
The only thing I dislike about newer digital cameras is they are too smooth and not as film looking as the older ones.
Sure they have more useable stops and go to higher iso's, but comparing a new dslr to my first canon 1ds, I always prefered the look of that camera and probably because it required fill cards or lights, which meant more craft to the image.
Though it's a shame how people buy now. They go into a camera store, tie up the sales people for an hour, test the camera, then go online to save $75, then if there is an issue go back to the store they tested it with and want a fix for a soft lens or knowledge of how to set it up.
That's really not fair.
Anyway, when setting up my 1dx 1 and 2 I use the old 1ds as a baseline for the look. Never get exact but can get pretty close.
But just like film, once you get zoned in on a look, all you need to change is a focus point, wb and iso. The rest is easy.
But in my experience I've always had great service (except once) from cps and though I use older phase backs and a Leica S2, always had amazing service from CI and Steve Hendrix.
IMO
BC
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It is a sign of the times.
In Sydney at least most of the camera stores have gone bust or are in trouble.
The Phase One Dealer who has been in the business for decades just closed its doors. (A new dealer has been appointed)
The Hasselblad dealer does other things and so is not dependant on cameras.
When I started in digital I read my Canon 350D manual and knew every knob and twiddle. Same with the 5D2. Now I have a 5Ds and started to read the manual - 532 pages. I gave up. On the menu screen there are 4 pages of options for AF. Lucky auto focus is for sissies. I have a T-shirt that says so.
My Hasselblad has a much smaller manual. If I want Mirror Up I press the Mirror Up button.
If I need service I ship it to the dealer in Sydney and they ship it to the Head Office in Melbourne and unless it's something simple they then ship it to Denmark.
A lot of things Hasselblad does on line it fulfils through the dealers so you may buy online but then get it from the dealer anyway.
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In a rational market, local support services, repairs and such can be products contracted separately from the original hardware: my HVAC service contract is not with the installer or manufacturer. Could good pro camera stores sell such a service to online buyers? Original hardware pricing would have to be adjusted down if it no longer includes all that pro dealer support.
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In a rational market, local support services, repairs and such can be products contracted separately from the original hardware: my HVAC service contract is not with the installer or manufacturer. Could good pro camera stores sell such a service to online buyers? Original hardware pricing would have to be adjusted down if it no longer includes all that pro dealer support.
Thing is, good pro dealers always did provide an excellent (in my experience() after-sales service. In the case of my own local expert, he handled Leica, Nikon and Hasselblad as his major brands. He was one of only two Leica dealerships of which I knew in the area. The various camera reps paid him frequent visits (you could arrange to meet them) and would keep him up to date with all that was new. A photographer himself, he was very interested in the stuff that he stocked. Fortunately, he was a little straight-laced, and as a direct comsequence, I ended up getting the Hans Feurer and Sam Haskins calendars when he remembered; I wonder if the Pentax chap wondered where they went?
Trouble was, as I've mentioned before, like me, he was based in Scotland and not London. In the end, Hasselblad dumped him because he was not willng to buy from them at a price that was above that for which bigger English dealers were able to sell the bloody cameras! Yes, legal, but there is something amiss when the makers think it okay directly to undermine their smaller retailers. Those bigger companies, within bigger catchment areas, would have been selling the same number of units regardless: nobody bought Hassy on whim, and if they could, it was clearly not going to be a customer's make or break decision whether or not he saved a few critical (to the smaller dealers) bucks. See Leica today. If big companies can make cost cutting offers via internal advantages of scale or better management, okay, but it's not okay if that is because they can get the goodies from the makers at a lower price than can the competition. As a consequence, I lost a good dealer who knew his gear, but fortunately for me I ended up going abroad anyway. On a return trip I went to see him to discover he had folded. I had used him for over two decades.
And in the end, it's the customer's fault, brough about by the Internet and the virtual, non-shop outlets that gradually destroy everybody with premises to run and support. I think it's a manifestation of very limited vision on the part of shoppers; where the hell do they imagine this is going to finish? When all the real shops have closed then the fight between the Internet merchants will get really fierce, until the last man standing runs everything. Then see where prices go. If there's anyone left to manufacture anything, that is.
I suppose it comes down to our very own cupidity.
Rob
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" Though it's a shame how people buy now. They go into a camera store, tie up the sales people for an hour, test the camera, then go online to save $75, then if there is an issue go back to the store they tested it with and want a fix for a soft lens or knowledge of how to set it up.
That's really not fair."
Could not agree with you more. A good friend had a sporting goods store many years back. The store included an indoor Archery Range. I listened one day as a customer was beating up on him over the $$ of a particular bow. Mind you, when someone purchased archery equipment there, they ALWAYS left the store with a bow that was setup and tuned to fit the shooter. All this was done at no charge. Well he finally said to the customer he'd take the 20 or 30 dollars off but the customer could not open the box in the store and would have to deal only with the bow's maker if there was a problem. The same thing used to happen all the time with certain (dare I say it, firearms purchasers), the store was very well stocked with them and always had a very good supply of certain hard to get items. The usual exchange went something like this "well dealer X has this for 20.00 less and this one here for almost 40.00 less." My friend would then ask why the customer was not making his purchase from Dealer X, the answer was always the same "well, he doesn't have any in stock"
Kevin in CT
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deleted idiotic post. apologies :)
Edmund
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If the web store works well, I could imagine that in time Hassy could move to a direct sales model for the "small" X1D, and lower the price substantially.
I don't believe it works that way. Even RED started with their own exclusive sales outlets, in most major markets, offered a complete line so you could buy it all and start working. Now they sell through many retailers as the goal today is to sell product, no matter how.
If you buy from RED you get your own bomb squad rep some are good, some not so, but RED changes their upgrade and sales process continually so whatever you hear today will most likely change tomorrow.
I personally believe you buy as local as possible, build good relationships with your suppliers as they can save you and give you honest information.
I also want to speak with the people I purchase from. Nothing is more frustrating than buying 5 items and only 4 come in 1 is backordered or not the correct item.
No matter if you shoot for fun or commerce, what you purchase is important to you and good suppliers really are your production partners.
IMO
BC
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I don't believe it works that way. Even RED started with their own exclusive sales outlets, in most major markets, offered a complete line so you could buy it all and start working. Now they sell through many retailers as the goal today is to sell product, no matter how.
If you buy from RED you get your own bomb squad rep some are good, some not so, but RED changes their upgrade and sales process continually so whatever you hear today will most likely change tomorrow.
I personally believe you buy as local as possible, build good relationships with your suppliers as they can save you and give you honest information.
I also want to speak with the people I purchase from. Nothing is more frustrating than buying 5 items and only 4 come in 1 is backordered or not the correct item.
No matter if you shoot for fun or commerce, what you purchase is important to you and good suppliers really are your production partners.
IMO
BC
Aren't the rental houses now turning into full-service rent/sell/problem-fix bureaus?
I have dealt with the video rental places a bit and they seem much more solution-oriented than the photo dealers, and helpful with the small stuff -cables etc- not only the large.
Edmund
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I posted to provoke and am surprised no one has picked up that if a camera needs a 400 page manual the chances of using it to its full potential is rather vanishingly small IMHO.
I have never read the manual for my Leica M2 and it works surprisingly well, mine doesn't have a self timer so that's one complication less as well 8)
Strange logic: a product that offers a greater array of functionality is likely to have a longer manual—I do not see how that can be spun into a disadvantage. to put it another way: I use a smaller _fraction_ of the far more numerous features of my current digital cameras than I did with my manual SLRs, but that "smaller fraction of a larger total" comes to more capabilities that I am making good use of.
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Strange logic: a product that offers a greater array of functionality is likely to have a longer manual—I do not see how that can be spun into a disadvantage. to put it another way: I use a smaller _fraction_ of the far more numerous features of my current digital cameras than I did with my manual SLRs, but that "smaller fraction of a larger total" comes to more capabilities that I am making good use of.
Have you tried setting up the action follow-focus AF on a pro SLR?
Edmund
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Thing is, good pro dealers always did provide an excellent (in my experience() after-sales service. . . .
Rob
Rob, I have no disagreement with your diagnosis, and the sadness of the situation: the only places I could now buy a camera within many hours' drive of home are big-box discount stores that only carry a few models of ILC from each of just two or three brands.
I am just looking for some optimism about how the people at "bricks and mortar" photo stores might adapt to this painful reality, and find new markets for whatever part of their talents and resources there is still a need for. Maybe Edmund has a point that lenses and their rental providers are a hope — but only in very major markets.