Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Landscape Photography Locations => Topic started by: LesPalenik on October 13, 2017, 05:32:32 am
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South Korean student jumps up and down on the edge of the cliff at Seven Sisters clifftop and falls 200 ft to her death.
Hyewon Kim, 23, had seconds earlier asked a passer-by to take her picture at the beauty spot in East Sussex – and then jumped up and down in “enjoyment” while focused on the camera.
There were six photos of her close to the cliffs. They were showing her jumping in the air extremely close to the edge. “Her concentration is not on anything other than what she is doing. The expression on her face shows nothing but enjoyment."
The delegated photographer must have concentrated also too much on picture taking, instead of warning her how close she was to the cliff edge. Most likely, this won't be the last occurence of such a tragedy.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/student-fell-death-seven-sisters-jumping-for-photo-hyewon-kim-east-sussex-a7997996.html
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Very sad.
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"Councillors in nearby Seaford town weeks later discussed having warning signs for visitors at Seven Sisters translated into languages other than English at the spot popular with tourists."
Are we truly at the point where we actually have to warn people about the risks of falling off of cliffs?
It is sad that this lady died, but she was 100% in control of the situation. Choices have consequences.
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"Councillors in nearby Seaford town weeks later discussed having warning signs for visitors at Seven Sisters translated into languages other than English at the spot popular with tourists."
Are we truly at the point where we actually have to warn people about the risks of falling off of cliffs?
It is sad that this lady died, but she was 100% in control of the situation. Choices have consequences.
+1
A tragic accident for those involved, but a case of natural selection (assuming the course of events was reported accurately).
Cheers,
Bart
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+1
A tragic accident for those involved, but a case of natural selection (assuming the course of events was reported accurately).
Cheers,
Bart
A little bit insensitive no? Would you feel the same way if it was someone you knew, a relative maybe?
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A little bit insensitive no? Would you feel the same way if it was someone you knew, a relative maybe?
As I said, a tragic event.
And there are many, even more, tragic events near and far. I assisted this weekend with a condolence register for a young 25-year-old woman taking a bicycle ride on September 29th who was murdered for no reason by a stranger, and got dumped in a forest and was only found 4 days ago. One can only begin to understand the desperation of her next of kin during that ordeal.
But the stupidity of some people asking for trouble seems to have no limits, and I have a bit less empathy for those. Excuse me for being honest.
Cheers,
Bart
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As I said, a tragic event.
And there are many, even more, tragic events near and far. I assisted this weekend with a condolence register for a young 25-year-old woman taking a bicycle ride on September 29th who was murdered for no reason by a stranger, and got dumped in a forest and was only found 4 days ago. One can only begin to understand the desperation of her next of kin during that ordeal.
But the stupidity of some people asking for trouble seems to have no limits, and I have a bit less empathy for those. Excuse me for being honest.
Cheers,
Bart
+1
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A tragic accident for those involved, but a case of natural selection (assuming the course of events was reported accurately).
My thoughts exactly. See also here (https://www.dropbox.com/s/cphnelw9rrug9v4/coren%20selfies.pdf?dl=0).
Jeremy
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As I said, a tragic event.
And there are many, even more, tragic events near and far. I assisted this weekend with a condolence register for a young 25-year-old woman taking a bicycle ride on September 29th who was murdered for no reason by a stranger, and got dumped in a forest and was only found 4 days ago. One can only begin to understand the desperation of her next of kin during that ordeal.
But the stupidity of some people asking for trouble seems to have no limits, and I have a bit less empathy for those. Excuse me for being honest.
Cheers,
Bart
So I take it you never done something stupid, something that could have killed you or possibly others. But luck was on your side. We’ve all been there, it’s the unlucky ones that don’t make it back.
I live in an area that has many remote regions that take away many people each year. Skiers who ski out of bounds and end up lost and frozen, cliff jumpers that don’t surface, hikers that never return, backcountry skiers that are hurried in avalanches. Are all these tragedies just a case of natural selection?
In fact the people that climb Everest and never make it down just reducing the weakness in the gene pool?
I’m sure the parents of that student which fell to her death grieve with as much sorrow as other parents that lose their child. Most accidental deaths are preventable, but that does not make them less tragic.
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I’m sure the parents of that student which fell to her death grieve with as much sorrow as other parents that lose their child. Most accidental deaths are preventable, but that does not make them less tragic.
As I said, a tragic event.
Cheers,
Bart
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As I said, a tragic event.
Cheers,
Bart
I also heard the remark of it being a case of natural selection which given the circumstances of the event, rather an insensitive comment.
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I also heard the remark of it being a case of natural selection which given the circumstances of the event, rather an insensitive comment.
Let it go man!
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So I take it you never done something stupid, something that could have killed you or possibly others. But luck was on your side. We’ve all been there, it’s the unlucky ones that don’t make it back.
I live in an area that has many remote regions that take away many people each year. Skiers who ski out of bounds and end up lost and frozen, cliff jumpers that don’t surface, hikers that never return, backcountry skiers that are hurried in avalanches. Are all these tragedies just a case of natural selection?
In fact the people that climb Everest and never make it down just reducing the weakness in the gene pool?
I’m sure the parents of that student which fell to her death grieve with as much sorrow as other parents that lose their child. Most accidental deaths are preventable, but that does not make them less tragic.
Since you decided to belabor the point...
This case, as reported, has nothing to do with luck, but everything to do with incredibly shortsighted, irresponsible, and yes, stupid move. It isn't even about taking a risk. Risk, in my mind, implies a prior calculation of possible outcomes and selection of those that offer a reasonable chance of success. If those calculated outcomes include possible death, in some cases it is worth taking the risk if the cause is worth it - that's what heroes do.
In this case, the lofty cause (a selfie!) was definitely not worth the risk. Any reasonable insight into possible outcomes of jumping at the very edge of a cliff would suggest that the move is incredibly stupid. I can't even believe that we are discussing it.
It wasn't an accident either. Accident is when something unexpected happens. Your examples include various degrees of risk. Climbing the Everest is not a good example of "cleaning the gene pool," as it usually involves months of preparation and training. It is a calculated risk. But climbing the Everest in a t-shirt is. Such is jumping at the edge of a cliff.
There are numerous deaths in national parks, in spite of signs like those attached below, clearly indicating that DEATH is a very likely outcome. And yet, people disregard them... and die. That is just stupid. And yes, tragic for the family anyway. But we are not discussing this in front of the family, which would be indeed insensitive.
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/46/00/43/4600431a4a64aaffc5d4add396f4a92e--funny-road-signs-danger.jpg)
(https://www.timberlinetrails.com/sitebuilder/Photos/Yosemite/Y77E.JPG)
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If you were speaking to one of her friends or relatives, or if they were readers here, then it would be insensitive. As a abstract discussion, it's just a point of view (and reasonably founded).
Yes, I'm sure everyone here has done some stupid things but, apparently, have all survived (unless there's something we don't know...). Luck, preparation, circumstance - whatever it might be. Had we not, and had we been doing something as stupid as jumping on the edge of a cliff, someone would probably have made a similar comment.
Would it be insensitive if someone had been doing 150mph in a car, lost control, and died and someone said they were stupid?
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Since you decided to belabor the point...
This case, as reported, has nothing to do with luck, but everything to do with incredibly shortsighted, irresponsible, and yes, stupid move. It isn't even about taking a risk. Risk, in my mind, implies a prior calculation of possible outcomes and selection of those that offer a reasonable chance of success. If those calculated outcomes include possible death, in some cases it is worth taking the risk if the cause is worth it - that's what heroes do.
In this case, the lofty cause (a selfie!) was definitely not worth the risk. Any reasonable insight into possible outcomes of jumping at the very edge of a cliff would suggest that the move is incredibly stupid. I can't even believe that we are discussing it.
It wasn't an accident either. Accident is when something unexpected happens. Your examples include various degrees of risk. Climbing the Everest is not a good example of "cleaning the gene pool," as it usually involves months of preparation and training. It is a calculated risk. But climbing the Everest in a t-shirt is. Such is jumping at the edge of a cliff.
There are numerous deaths in national parks, in spite of signs like those attached below, clearly indicating that DEATH is a very likely outcome. And yet, people disregard them... and die. That is just stupid. And yes, tragic for the family anyway. But we are not discussing this in front of the family, which would be indeed insensitive.
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/46/00/43/4600431a4a64aaffc5d4add396f4a92e--funny-road-signs-danger.jpg)
(https://www.timberlinetrails.com/sitebuilder/Photos/Yosemite/Y77E.JPG)
It really doesn't matter if the family is present or not, calling this unfortunate event an act of "natural selection" is extremely insensitive and uncalled for. And yes there are warning signs everywhere for out of bounds skiing, jumping off cliffs into deep pools etc. And there are warning messages put out about back country skiing conditions...yet many people die doing these acts. In fact I'm pretty sure there are many warning regarding climbing Everest. Should we regard all these deaths as just the "natural selection" in motion?
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Frankly, I am amazed that any of us live to the age of 30. The amount of stupidity that even the most summa cum laude types of young people have is considerable. I hike a fair bit, and am around high (usually wooded) bluffs. I am very careful and check footing, because every once in a (great) while, a safe lookout develops a crack - this is limestone.
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In Iceland this summer a tourist fell overboard while trying to take a selfie on a whale-watching trip. After being rescued she expressed her great disappointment at the loss of her brand new Samsung phone.
In Chennai, India, a guy almost burnt to death while taking a selfie in front of a burning bakery. He later said he wanted to get Likes on Facebook.
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not to be TOO tasteless, but there should be a special "selfies" section for the Darwin awards.
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not to be TOO tasteless, but there should be a special "selfies" section for the Darwin awards.
+1!
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He later said he wanted to get Likes on Facebook.
That is pathetic on so many levels.
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The delegated photographer must have concentrated also too much on picture taking, instead of warning her how close she was to the cliff edge. Most likely, this won't be the last occurence of such a tragedy.
I wanted to point out that the photographer bears also some responsibility in these tragic situations to guide or warn the photographed person. Unfortunately, in most situations the shooter is seeing only the jumping person, not realizing how close she is from the cliff edge (especially when watching the scene on the small and poorly lit LCD screen).
In all likelihood, the girl started further from the cliff edge, but through subsequent jumping she might have come closer and closer to the edge. Sometimes even a bad landing may result in an unintended and fatal slide or roll off the cliff.
The picture below was taken at 100m-deep Barron Canyon in north eastern Ontario. This solitary tourist was careful in taking pictures down in the canyon (not visible in this shot), but still only a step away from the edge, standing on uneven surface and slightly off balance holding the camera in outstretched hand. So if he slipped or some raven (even a bumble bee or wasp) decided to bomb dive him, it could end up disastrously.
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I was at Horseshoe Bend a couple of weeks ago and the craziness that goes on there is nerve racking.....this woman was also standing in that spot she is sitting while friends photographed her....people around me were shaking their heads and cringing.
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When I was stationed in Iceland I used to visit the nearby cliffs. I'm not afraid of heights but it was absolutely terrifying to be anywhere near the edge. Not sure how she could jump up and down like that. I had to crawl on my belly just to look over the edge.
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Last year I fell from a small mountain road ( a road, not a path...) because I was rewieving the photographs on the LCD of my camera and did not look where I was walking. The ligaments of the ankle and of the knee were severely sprained. If I were fallen a few meters later I would have probably been dead. I am glad that in those moments the natural selection was distracted.
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This afternoon as I was driving to the airport, I saw a driver just barely able to stop and miss hitting a young person crossing the street (a four lane street at that) against the light and looking at their phone instead of the light, road and where they were walking.
Dave S
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Over the past two years, after decades of declining deaths on the road, U.S. traffic fatalities surged by 14.4 percent. In 2016 alone, more than 100 people died every day in or near vehicles in America, the first time the country has passed that grim toll in a decade. Regulators, meanwhile, still have no good idea why crash-related deaths are spiking: People are driving longer distances but not tremendously so; total miles were up just 2.2 percent last year. Collectively, we seemed to be speeding and drinking a little more, but not much more than usual. Together, experts say these upticks don’t explain the surge in road deaths.
There are however three big clues, and they don’t rest along the highway. One, as you may have guessed, is the substantial increase in smartphone use by U.S. drivers as they drive. From 2014 to 2016, the share of Americans who owned an iPhone, Android phone, or something comparable rose from 75 percent to 81 percent.
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Perhaps more telling are the findings of Zendrive Inc., a San Francisco startup that analyzes smartphone data to help insurers of commercial fleets assess safety risks. In a study of 3 million people, it found drivers using their mobile phone during 88 percent of trips. The true number is probably even higher because Zendrive didn’t capture instances when phones were mounted in a fixed position—so-called hands free technology, which is also considered dangerous.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-10-17/smartphones-are-killing-americans-but-nobody-s-counting
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Society can only do so much to protect people.
Society can not remove all risks.
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I was at Horseshoe Bend a couple of weeks ago and the craziness that goes on there is nerve racking.....this woman was also standing in that spot she is sitting while friends photographed her....people around me were shaking their heads and cringing.
A few years ago I was at Horseshoe Bend with 2 photographer friends. One of my friends stood one foot from the edge of the cliff to take photos. The other friend and I were horrified, urged her to move back. She said she was stable and not afraid of heights. We countered she could have a seizure or faint unexpectedly and that would be the death of her. In the end we grabbed her coat and wouldn't let go until she moved back from the edge. This person is otherwise intelligent, grounded, reasonable and rational. Fortunately, she did not win a Darwin award.
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Not only young Asian girls jump to their death for a photo, but also seasoned Asian men.
Chinese conglomerate HNA Group [HNAIRC.UL] Co-Chairman Wang Jian died during a business trip in France on July 3 in what local police said appeared to be an accidental fall from a wall while posing for a photograph.
Wang fell 15 meters off a wall in the village of Bonnieux, near Avignon, a picturesque area popular with tourists, lieutenant-colonel Hubert Meriaux of the Vaucluse gendarmerie force told Reuters. “He stood on the edge of a sharp drop to get his family to take a picture of him and fell,” he said.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hna-chairman/chinas-hna-group-chairman-wang-dies-after-fall-in-france-idUSKBN1JU0SQ
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It is sad that this lady died, but she was 100% in control of the situation. Choices have consequences.
Yes, but this was not an adult. Over the past few years I've intervened in several places when I saw young Chinese tourists doing very stupid things. Talking to them I got the feeling that these are people who have lived in cities all their lives and have no experience with the outdoors. They seem to have little awareness of the danger they are in. One young guy was going to take a selfie with a buffalo in one of our state parks. I stopped him and discussed it. In Canada a couple of years ago I intervened when a Chinese guy was having his young daughter walk out on the edge of a waterfall that had wet & slippery rocks. In Yellowstone I stopped two young Chinese women from walking out to a geysor where they wanted to look into the hole. At the Columbia Ice Field I talked to a young Chinese guy who was preparing to take his very young children out on a glacier--all were wearing shorts and flip-flops. I do think that as experienced adults we have a moral duty to advise others when they are in imminent danger, especially if there are children involved.
Kent in SD
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At some point people need to take responsibility for their own lives. It is hard to believe she didn't know what the danger was. The real problem is those that have gone before and that will come after. Did she come up with this idea herself or copy someone else? There's very little that can be done. Tragic yes.
This girl jumping up and down obviously didn't think about how accurate she needed to be with her jumping. Personally, I never go closer to the edge of a cliff than I am tall so that if I fall, none of me is hanging over the edge. That's my own rule that I made up after thinking about the situation.
To add to the other stories of Asians from cities doing stupid things, they'll follow their GPS off a made road and into mud, only to find themselves bogged.
Every year people die in Yosemite because they ignore signs and go where they shouldn't or do what they shouldn't. There's only so much that can be done.
It isn't just a matter of "city living", it is a matter of critical thinking. In too many Asian societies, people learn to copy rather than to think.
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Yep. We lose a few tourists every year. Some animals will bite you, some will claw you and some simply step on you. Lions are not actually very cuddly and elephants can be a bit grouchy. All are very fast.
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At some point people need to take responsibility for their own lives. It is hard to believe she didn't know what the danger was. The real problem is those that have gone before and that will come after. Did she come up with this idea herself or copy someone else? There's very little that can be done. Tragic yes.
This girl jumping up and down obviously didn't think about how accurate she needed to be with her jumping.
It isn't just a matter of "city living", it is a matter of critical thinking. In too many Asian societies, people learn to copy rather than to think.
It's not difficult to imagine that the young girl was elated, and eager to get another photo of herself, without thinking about the danger.
But the second case of the CEO of a larger company, an older experienced man who fell down from a wall (post #28), is really hard to understand. Case of impaired balance or impaired thinking.
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2721975/Couple-plunged-death-cliff-young-children-tried-selfie.html
https://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/australian-couple-dead-after-fall-at-portugal-beach/news-story/2a3d4c71b2fe52641cfcab39b3786fdb
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5249537/Man-falls-death-posing-cliff-photo.html
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2014/08/11/selfie-death-fall-portugal/13922025/
https://patch.com/new-jersey/hoboken/nj-man-24-falls-cliff-dies-while-taking-pictures
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I think it is a high time to ban dangerous cliffs.
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I think it is a high time to ban dangerous cliffs.
Along with dangerous rivers, ski hills...even certain roads that take dozens of lives every year.
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Along with dangerous rivers, ski hills...even certain roads that take dozens of lives every year.
Yes. With roads, since they're a creation of man, you might argue that there is a responsibility to fix them if they are deadly (blind corners, etc.)
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My own experience with dangerous cliffs, Badlands National Park, 2006.
I stood in front of that sign for a good few minutes, trying to figure out what it meant. It was very early in the morning, no coffee yet, so forgive me if it would be obvious to anyone else under the circumstances. Did it mean "keep right" by passing on the right side of the sign and staying close to the wall on the right, where there actually was what seemed to be a beaten path (in yellow)? Or it meant to go higher up to the right (not visible in the picture) and walk around the the "wall"? After a few minutes, I decided not to take the yellow path and climbed higher up and around. Though, truth to be told, the yellow path didn't seem that risky either. The dangerous cliffs were a few feet to the left in the image, the steep drop not visible. It was a mild telephoto (around 112mm full-frame eq.), slightly compressing the perspective.
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Last year I fell from a small mountain road ( a road, not a path...) because I was rewieving the photographs on the LCD of my camera and did not look where I was walking. The ligaments of the ankle and of the knee were severely sprained. If I were fallen a few meters later I would have probably been dead. I am glad that in those moments the natural selection was distracted.
Well, if it's any consolation it would have given some of the posters here (including some who demand "sensitivity" in other contexts) cause for a good laugh.
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Think of all the risks people take messing with the cellphones while driving. I know I do and should know better. It's estimated that 3500 people die on American roads due to distractions. We all think it's not going to happen to us. It's easy to get distracted using a cellphone especially taking selfies. I can't imagine what the parents are going through losing their 23 old daughter.
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People forget that many of the spectacular photographs that are taken at cliff edges or other hazardous spots are taken by photographers who prepare for disaster - photographer is wearing a climbing harness and has both a good anchor point and some help - and the photographer is an experienced climber in the first place. Adventure photographers generally seem to start as skilled adventure sport participants, who then develop some photography expertise. Not vice versa.
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Yesterday, a 53 year old woman was killed after falling 50 ft from a cliff on a rock ledge at Cape Spears, the most easterly point in America. She and her sister came to Newfoundland from Chicago to watch the sunrise. Not sure if any photography was involved.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/incident-at-cape-spear-1.4799010
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I just came back from a trip to a lot of the national parks in the southwest USA in high areas like Canyonlands, Grand Canyon etc. I can;t believe how many people stand close by or jump up and down near the cliffs. My heart was in my throat for these people. I didn't get closer than ten feet if no fence. I'm chicken.
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People forget that many of the spectacular photographs that are taken at cliff edges or other hazardous spots are taken by photographers who prepare for disaster - photographer is wearing a climbing harness and has both a good anchor point and some help - and the photographer is an experienced climber in the first place. Adventure photographers generally seem to start as skilled adventure sport participants, who then develop some photography expertise. Not vice versa.
And it's these adventure adrenalin seekers that we here about getting themselves killed or seriously injured almost daily. Should we all be poking fun at them?
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And it's these adventure adrenalin seekers that we here about getting themselves killed or seriously injured almost daily. Should we all be poking fun at them?
Nobody is poking fun of anybody here, just pointing out that stupid is stupid, and that is a serious statement. There is a difference between calculated risk (in case of highly trained "adrenalin seekers") and stupid risk.
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Nobody is poking fun of anybody here, just pointing out that stupid is stupid, and that is a serious statement. There is a difference between calculated risk (in case of highly trained "adrenalin seekers") and stupid risk.
So are you "stupid is stupid" when driving and looking at your phone? Are you "stupid is stupid" when you speed, drive after a few drinks etc...
Do you calculate these risks when you take them?
Stupid is stupid.
Oh...and those statements about natural selection is not poking fun?
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... Oh...and those statements about natural selection is not poking fun?
No, just a shrewd observation.
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No, just a shrewd observation.
Glad you think so. I guess you would make the same claim if someone close to you died in a crash while texting.
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It has happened again, but in Yosemite. Be careful out there.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/teen-falls-to-death-in-yosemite-national-park-while-reportedly-taking-selfie/
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A tragedy. Very sad and also very stupid. A think can be both sad and stupid.
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We should outlaw selfies. They're dangerous to your health. :)
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According to some reports, selfies now lead to more deaths around the world than shark attacks.
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According to some reports, selfies now lead to more deaths around the world than shark attacks.
The worst of both worlds ;)
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The worst of both worlds ;)
Good one.
Did you direct the shark to smile? ;)
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The worst of both worlds ;)
That is definitely in poor taste... I can't believe that shark is enjoying the taste of that selfie stick!!! ;)
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The worst of both worlds ;)
Is it a genuine iPhone or some Android copy?
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“A California woman slipped and fell to her death while taking selfies at Pictured Rocks National Lakeshore on Michigan's Upper Peninsula, according to National Park Service officials.”
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2018/09/21/pictured-rocks-death-tu-thanh-nguyen-lake-superior/1382807002/
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Totally unrelated to this thread, but I've just come across this t-shirt ;)
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Death by selfie seems to have attracted the attention of (a subset of) the scientific community and the researchers involved in a study (https://arstechnica.com/science/2018/10/deaths-by-selfie-drowning-falling-and-getting-nailed-by-a-train-top-list/) have made a proposal "to define "no selfie zones" in hazardous sightseeing areas, such as along bodies of water, mountain peaks, and the tops of tall buildings."
We are all looking forward to seeing additional signs on famous sightseeing spots!
Cheers,
Fabien