Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: gkroeger on June 14, 2017, 12:41:34 pm
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I am looking for a bright whitepoint and the widest gamut I can get from a matte paper, with as smooth a surface as I can get. So far, the leading candidates are Hahnemühle Ultra-Smooth Photo Rag and Epson Legacy Fibre. It seems the Hahnemühle is smoother but the Epson might have a better gamut.
Am I missing other leading contenders? Any comments on these or others will be appreciated.
Glenn
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If you check through all my articles on this website where I've reviewed papers, I usually include gamut volume data as well as White point and Black point data. You may find something suitable.
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You can only get a bright white from a paper with optical brightening agents (OBAs). I have found that almost all other matte papers have pretty much the same white point. I print a lot with Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Ultra Smooth and it's a nice paper. There is some good data on print permanency of this paper at Aardenburg from samples that I submitted. In terms of gamut volume, it is the best of all the papers that I have profiled for my own use. I have not tested the Epson papers at all and I've read very good things about Moab Entrada which I plan to try this summer.
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Why must you have a matte paper? As far as I can tell, the only point of these papers is to get prints with dull whites and grayish blacks - to mimic the old-timey look.
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Why must you have a matte paper? As far as I can tell, the only point of these papers is to get prints with dull whites and grayish blacks - to mimic the old-timey look.
If you read my Canon Pro-2000 review, which includes reviews of several new Canon papers - you will see that this is no longer the case. The value of the Black point measurement and how they look visually are very different. They have put a lot of research into Black appearance modeling in developing their new inkset and papers (manufactured by third parties), and it shows in the results unambiguously. The B&W with the new Epson Legacy Fiber also shows really well for a matte paper. I'm not saying they have the gamut of a high quality luster paper, but the print appearance on some of these newer matte papers has improved dramatically just over the past year or two. If I need very well differentiated fine shadow detail in the tonal range of say L*1.5 ~ 10 or 15 I would still prefer a good PK paper, but for many photos that don't really need this, some of the matte offerings can be very attractive depending on the photo. I particularly liked Canon's new Premium Fine Art Smooth when I tested it and made a suite of ten 17*22 inch prints with it. Discerning people I've shown them to really warm-up to them.
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As far as I can tell, the only point of these papers is to get prints with dull whites and grayish blacks - to mimic the old-timey look.
That's not been my experience with quality matt papers.
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Have you tried Canson Rag Photographique? It's as smooth as the Hahnemuhle Ultra smooth but without the OBAs.
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Have you tried Canson Rag Photographique? It's as smooth as the Hahnemuhle Ultra smooth but without the OBAs.
I am experimenting with Canson Rag Photographique now. Very nice surface.
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Innova Fibaprint Matte is the brightest white matte paper that I have found. I use both it and Smooth Cotton from Innova. Both are nice papers for both colour and B&W.
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Innova Fibaprint Matte is the brightest white matte paper that I have found. I use both it and Smooth Cotton from Innova. Both are nice papers for both colour and B&W.
It has OBAs, hence people concerned with its keeping properties would need to know more about its OBA fading characteristics.
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No argument there, and Innova state that it has. I've never found anything definitive on it, and pray that it is good, or I may have some irate customers. So far it is holding up well
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Who knows - it may their grandchildren that get a bit annoyed :-).
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I'll be long gone.
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Optical brighteners by their very nature are not known for longevity. They make things appear more white by absorbing and re-emitting light much like a fluorescent pigment does. That ability fades over time, generally in relation to how much it is exposed to uv light. It can be slowed somewhat by adding Uv absorbers but that adds a detrimental effect when you are discussing papers.
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Optical brighteners by their very nature are not known for longevity. They make things appear more white by absorbing and re-emitting light much like a fluorescent pigment does. That ability fades over time, generally in relation to how much it is exposed to uv light. It can be slowed somewhat by adding Uv absorbers but that adds a detrimental effect when you are discussing papers.
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Sure, but the devil is in the details of what kinds of brighteners, how much, and where in the paper they are lodged. I understand all this can have a large impact on the timing and appearance of their fading. One is given to expect that a small amount of OBA in the base of the paper is likely to be much less obnoxious than larger admixtures closer to the surface, but how true this is I don't know. Unless one knows more than the binary fact of whether or not the paper contains OBAs, it is hard to know much about their specific impact unless they have been properly tested for this, as Aardenburg Imaging does to the extent it can.
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As Mark says, the devil is indeed in the details. If the OBAs simply stop fluorescing under UV light but don't affect any colors then it's really little harm. However if the OBAs affect the colors as they recede then indeed that may be a concern.
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I wouldn't disagree with any of that. I'm merely pointing out that in regards to a paper being equal in all other aspects, the one having the optical brightenner will not have the light fastness of the one without it.
Of course, within a set of papers containing OBA, there could be significant differences in the stability of those papers. Particle size of the OBA agent, surface coatings on the paper that can absorb the UV radiation as opposed to the OBA which would tend to increase the life of the OBA. On the other hand, it is the absorbance of the UV light that allows the OBA to re-emit in the blue region and create the "brighter" look.
I do not claim to be an expert on papers by any means, but I do know pigments, dyes and additives very well. Another thing I wonder about is what type titanium dioxide is used in the paper. I know that anatase is widely used, but the rules may change for photographic papers. It would be interesting to know since rutile has much better stability in most applications. Another factor could be what extenders are used in the papers. I know pigments such as barium sulfate, calcium carbonate, and zinc sulphide are used, but I wouldn't have a clue as to which papers use more, less, or none. I also don't know to what extent coatings are used in matte papers. Another factor that could significantly affect the paper's color stability. Perhaps that kind of information is available for the different papers, I have no idea but I find it an interesting topic.
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Actually, we don't get to know about most of those details of the chemistry that you are raising. It's all in their "secret sauce". About the best information we have on OBA fading these days comes from Aardenburg Imaging, where Mark McCormack-Goodhart has interesting insights based on his testing and knowledge of many papers and inksets.
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OBAs will lose their fluorescence ability over time, usually by photochemical or oxidative reactions. When this happens the paper tales on a yellow cast. Three old Epson matte paper turned yellow in about six months. Cheap photocopy papers with high OBA content turn fast as anyone who has stored old office documents knows.
Chemical whitening agents such as TiO2 and barium sulphate work differently but can also lose whitening ability. I is hard to make an a priori guesses about a paper which is why longevity testing is critical.
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Alan, I have old prints from my HP Z3100 where I used what is now known Epson UPPM and HP matte papers with OBAs as well. Some of these prints are 10 years old and I see no signs with my eyes of yellowing. Admittedly these aren't exposed to direct sunlight but there is no protection other than they're in "Crystal Clear Bags" with archival foam core for support. Perhaps a spectro is required for detection.
I've viewed them under 4700K LED lamps in my print viewing area.
I don't doubt OBAs may do what you say but I've not witnessed it personally.
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Try Epson Hot Press Bright