Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Dahlmann on February 04, 2017, 06:04:47 pm
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Hi guys.
I'm thinking of invest in a older digital back that i can mount on a Hasselblad 503cw.
I'm a slow photographer and mostly I sitting in my studio and doing still life. Flowers and sometimes portraits. Landscape i do with my d810.
The reason to buy a digital back is more for fun and i have done some looking around and i like the look of those old ccd backs.
I also like to have the opportunity to shoot film every now and then.
I do print my work up to 17x20 inch and I do sell my prints.
What backs to stay away from?, and what backs have a good reputation?!
What type of problem can i run in to when i buy and using 5-10 years old backs.
I do think the old phase one looks a bit flat compare to mamiya zd or leaf aptus 75s backs.
The two backs I mention above is the ones I so far leaning towards.
So what do you guys think?
Nothing is written in stone here so I am open for suggestions..
My budget is around 3 grand for the back
Kind regards Daniel
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For probably less money you could get an H3D camera and integrated back and the version I shoots film also.
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For printing 17"X and spending $3K you will not got any better than the D810.
If you are seeking to have back the thrill of using MF, any back 10 years old or newer will do.
Just saying.
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For probably less money you could get an H3D camera and integrated back and the version I shoots film also.
And there is an adapter to use your lenses on that camera.
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You are not going to pick up a H integrated digital for the price of an older V fit back IMHO and then spend again for the adapter, which does work well but is prone to slipping clutch in S/H examples.
My P20 back still performs in the "fat pixel" CCD stakes and gives the "authentic" square output and they are reasonable, so reasonable it's not worth selling!!
I would say it depends on your viewfinder crop tolerance which back and also which software you are comfortable with, you may want the longer exposure of the + series in phase for your interior work, the premium is much less than it used to be.
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You are not going to pick up a H integrated digital for the price of an older V fit back IMHO and then spend again for the adapter, which does work well but is prone to slipping clutch in S/H examples.
My P20 back still performs in the "fat pixel" CCD stakes and gives the "authentic" square output and they are reasonable, so reasonable it's not worth selling!!
I would say it depends on your viewfinder crop tolerance which back and also which software you are comfortable with, you may want the longer exposure of the + series in phase for your interior work, the premium is much less than it used to be.
I do struggling a bit to understand what you mean. I use lightroom cc and photoshop. That's pretty much what I understood. Can you simplify it a bit for me?! SORRY.
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I was not clear in my post. I don't have a hassy body yet. What type hasselblad body's are best for digital backs. I do like the older bodies..
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Thanks for your answer.
I do not like those plastic bodies I prefer the old classic ones..
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I friend did show me a couple or pic he took with the mamiya zd back and I really liked the look of the file. It Nearly looked like film. I think it was taken with mamiya 645 afd and the 80 mm 2.8
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You may also look at the Mamiya RZ, they are dirt cheap and the glass has a very organic look. I´d go with the Leaf back (ZD was Leaf technology as well). Not sure if it makes any sense as business invest but for the pleasure to work with MF, why not? Cheers!
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V mount backs always seem to command a good price premium compared to H and M mount. There are a number of models that you can get, it's just a matter of one of them coming up and being available long enough to find and purchase.
First step is to get some files from the Leaf, PhaseOne and Hasselblad options & compare which files you like better - Don't worry about the model, worry about the color & editing workflow. Some folks prefer CaptureOne, some prefer the colors from the Hasselblad & deal with Phocus. That should really help you narrow down the options.
Generally speaking, digital backs will work as long as you give them fresh batteries. The moving parts are in the body, so they'll last.
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I do struggling a bit to understand what you mean. I use lightroom cc and photoshop. That's pretty much what I understood. Can you simplify it a bit for me?! SORRY.
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Simply, Phase One backs produce of their best using Capture One, if that is not a program you are familiar with there will be a learning curve which may limit you to start.
I had assumed you had a V platform since you specifically mentioned the 503CW, the H series does integrate better with digital backs although the Hasselblad V series fit backs from Hasselblad are seamless.
Actually it is hard to say which back no one would recommend, all are possible, it is down to the look and the software and availability, ideally from a dealer for a comforting warranty period and support if you are new to the game.
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Also consider the price of a potential refresh on the camera body. A v might need a calibration service to keep tolerances tight to a digital back. It's more demanding than film. I bought an H1 setup for an insane price...but I spent another $1000 in service having key parts replaced a year later.
The p25 backs are nice too. You can find those for some good prices online.
I highly recommend getting together with a photographer that has a similar setup or renting, or going to a dealer and trying the gear out. Make sure it feels right. Especially for studio work, even older backs give amazing results. I personally still think they look better than any 35mm camera result out there. The technical difference has shrunk, and the performance and feature difference is completely in favor of high end 35mm. Like you say, the workflow and mind set is totally different. I prefer medium format for that as well. It slows me way down. Sometimes that is desireable.
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Hi,
My experience is with the Phase One P45+ back on the Hasselblad 555/ELD. What I have found is:
- It can give great results
- But so can a 24 MP DSLR type of camera
- Focusing is difficult and not very reliable, OK, practice, eyesight, viewfinder loupes
- I used to use a Zeiss 3X monocular with the PM5 viewfinder. Sort of OK, 80-90% sharp focus rate.
- Aliasing/Moiré is a problem, depends on subjects. In my case rippled water surface and sailboat rigs mean problems.
- DR is limited compared with modern Sony sensors.
- Somewhat problematic rendition of greens. You hate it or love it.
- Some Hasselblad lenses very good but some rather mediocre. All can deliver great images under the right circumstances
- For me it was a learning experience.
- I like to shoot with the Hasselblad, but few of the images make it to the wall. I guess it doesn't work for me but I don't know why.
Best regards
Erik
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My experience is with the Phase One P45+ back on the Hasselblad 555/ELD. ....
I like to shoot with the Hasselblad, but few of the images make it to the wall. I guess it doesn't work for me but I don't know why.
You are not shooting with a Hasselblad and the parts that are Hasselblad are over a decade old.
Really old film cameras are interesting. Really old digital cameras are like really old computers and VHS cassette players.
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A CFV-16 or V mount Phase One P21, 30, 25+ will produce images with a different look to a modern DSLR. The biggest issue in my experience is that the on board battery may be dying/dead but otherwise image quality is still excellent and different.
Ignore the typical "use a D810/A7RII/5DIII/5Dsr" notes because they just don't understand ...
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You are not shooting with a Hasselblad and the parts that are Hasselblad are over a decade old.
Really old film cameras are interesting. Really old digital cameras are like really old computers and VHS cassette players.
I would beg to differ on this point. I wouldn't go to a tethered back but a later P+ or CFV have a different look. I started with a Kodak 645M and even now those images have a look that my dslr images lack.
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Another consideration... only the cfv backs work natively on the v series. Phase and leaf backs need an extra cable to trigger the sensor at the time the shutter fires. Some people don't care...but just be aware.
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Ignore the typical "use a D810/A7RII/5DIII/5Dsr" notes because they just don't understand ...
You can ignore the "5DIII/5Dsr" notes for sure. ;)
Rest assured that the image quality you are getting from your D810 at ISO64 with the best lenses is a challenge for any digital back, including the very latest ones.
So the notes about the D810 are relevant if you don't know why you are buying your MFDB for.
This being said, it is true that the combination of larger sensor (at least from 36x48mm onwards IMHO), higher resolution (in some cases), different lenses,... can result in a different look. It is true also that the large OVF of these MF bodies results in a shooting pleasures miles ahead of that of an EVF body. It is true also that the slower paced shooting can result in a different vision and relationship to the scene and subject.
Now, be aware also that focusing can be a challenge, that handheld shooting can be tough, that higher ISOs are poor, that may important functional goodies such as Auto-ISO are typically very basic, that...
Cheers,
Bernard
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Bernard
I don't disagree ... not better or worse, just different ...
(In full disclosure I shoot all of them - well not the Canon wannabes :) Everything from IQ3100, P25+, Aptus 65, A7RII, Nikon df, Leica M246, soon M10, RX100 IV, RX1rII plus xpan, Rollei 6008I2, Nikon F6 and even ... iPhone )
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I don't disagree ... not better or worse, just different ...
Absolutely.
Cheers,
Bernard
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I would beg to differ on this point. I wouldn't go to a tethered back but a later P+ or CFV have a different look. I started with a Kodak 645M and even now those images have a look that my dslr images lack.
I am not sure what we are differing on?
When I had the H2 I was looking for a P45+ as I had a P21. They were ridiculously expensive and personally I found the H and P combination cumbersome. You needed a truck full of batteries and there is no integration. For much (much) less money I bought an H3DII-31 and haven't looked back. Now have the H3DII-39. Current lens range and support. I have used Mamaiya AFD and didn't like them much. Next step is an H4D or H5D.
A lot of people get hung up on the square format and I am not really sure why. The majority of people I shoot are not square whether standing or lying and for landscape work it is useless. You want even more rectangular. If you are shooting a portrait you are not going to blow it up past life size anyway so cropping doesn't matter.
Perhaps people can't see the practicality because of the nostalgic tear in their eye. Hasselblad could though and I don't think they will continue to support three ranges of MF for much longer.
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somebody mentioned something about onboard battery issues?
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Can't onboard batteries be replaced via service? I never thought that would be an issue?
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Hi Bob,
Since you may have missed it, the original poster was specially asking about V-series Hasselblad. Also it is quite obvious that he is asking about an affordable system. The V-lenses are very affordable. So a V-system makes a lot of sense.
On the sensor side, Hasselblad has been using Kodak sensors for very long time. All the CCD-s used by Hasselblad were Kodak CCDs except the 60 MP model that uses DALSA.
Another small point, the P45+ back has an 1.1X crop factor, near full frame 645. With modern cameras, affordable means 1.3X crops, no fun with wide angles.
Best regards
Erik
You are not shooting with a Hasselblad and the parts that are Hasselblad are over a decade old.
Really old film cameras are interesting. Really old digital cameras are like really old computers and VHS cassette players.
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Hi,
It will be an expensive repair, as the back would be taken apart. All repairs on MFD tend to be expensive.
On the plus side, I think most cameras work with an almost dead clock battery as long they are powered by other means and you may be able to replace the battery without loosing date, time and other settings.
Best regards
Erik
Can't onboard batteries be replaced via service? I never thought that would be an issue?
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You can ignore the "5DIII/5Dsr" notes for sure. ;)
Rest assured that the image quality you are getting from your D810 at ISO64 with the best lenses is a challenge for any digital back, including the very latest ones.
So the notes about the D810 are relevant if you don't know why you are buying your MFDB for.
This being said, it is true that the combination of larger sensor (at least from 36x48mm onwards IMHO), higher resolution (in some cases), different lenses,... can result in a different look. It is true also that the large OVF of these MF bodies results in a shooting pleasures miles ahead of that of an EVF body. It is true also that the slower paced shooting can result in a different vision and relationship to the scene and subject.
Now, be aware also that focusing can be a challenge, that handheld shooting can be tough, that higher ISOs are poor, that may important functional goodies such as Auto-ISO are typically very basic, that...
Cheers,
Bernard
Agreed. The D810 at ISO 64 is hard to beat. I would definitely wait until dust settles for the D850 and the A7R-III, which should be just this year anyway if the rumors are trustworthy at all.
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Since you may have missed it, the original poster was specially asking about V-series Hasselblad. Also it is quite obvious that he is asking about an affordable system. The V-lenses are very affordable. So a V-system makes a lot of sense.
Actually he asked what do we think. He also does not have any of the back or camera, so presumably does not have any lenses. I think investing thousands into an obsolete system is a waste. H3 series are now fairly affordable. I have had a couple.
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Hi guys.
I'm thinking of invest in a older digital back that i can mount on a Hasselblad 503cw.
I'm a slow photographer and mostly I sitting in my studio and doing still life. Flowers and sometimes portraits. Landscape i do with my d810.
The reason to buy a digital back is more for fun and i have done some looking around and i like the look of those old ccd backs.
I also like to have the opportunity to shoot film every now and then.
I do print my work up to 17x20 inch and I do sell my prints.
What backs to stay away from?, and what backs have a good reputation?!
What type of problem can i run in to when i buy and using 5-10 years old backs.
I do think the old phase one looks a bit flat compare to mamiya zd or leaf aptus 75s backs.
The two backs I mention above is the ones I so far leaning towards.
So what do you guys think?
Nothing is written in stone here so I am open for suggestions..
My budget is around 3 grand for the back
Kind regards Daniel
Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
Daniel -
I take you at your word. You said you like to shoot slow and measured in a studio shooting still life. You use a D810 for landscapes.
But you want to have some fun with medium format, preferably a 503CW. And you want to also be able to shoot film. I hear you!
You said 503CW. Why? Do you like the experience or the feeling of shooting an old school, manual camera, perhaps with a waist level finder? Many do. Or is it primarily about the lenses - do you like the look of the Zeiss glass for that system? Is there something else that draws you to that camera? Is shooting square with film part of the allure? Have you ever shot with a Hasselblad 5 Series camera before? (I'm guessing you have).
If shooting square is a factor, then yes, there was a square sensor developed by Kodak that resides at least in the following digital back models:
- Kodak ProBack
- Phase One P20/20+
- Hasseblad CFV-16
All are 16mp. Despite the low megapixel count - by todays standards - it yields quite a nice file. But the sensor, while square, is 36mm x 36mm, not so large for a 60mm x 60mm camera (56mm x 56mm imaging area, roughly). But the price certainly fits well under your budget, you'll benefit from a viewfinder mask showing you the image capture area, and (for Kodak and Phase One digital backs), a $20 short cable that will connect the sync post of the lens to the miniphone port in the digital back for synchronization. A firewire cable if you desire to shoot into a computer and have images appear as you shoot. If it is a Phase One P20+, there is a sort of live view feed that one can use when shooting tethered to computer to magnify images for accurate focusing and composition (I think also the CFV has this ability, not sure of the ProBack). It's not the best live view, you need just enough light not too much, and it can't be too low, and the signal has a slight delay, but for your pace, it can work well.
If the square sensor is not super important, there are more options in your price range. Phase One P25/25+, Leaf Aptus 22, these are a few good ones. I would avoid the ZD, even though it uses the same sensor as the Aptus 22. Just trust me. These are rectangular sensors that employ a 4/3 ratio. But, there is the possibility of shooting square via a square viewfinder mask and pre-set square crop that automatically applies upon import. Just a thought. The sensors are relatively large (48/49mm x 36/37mm), so a wide angle lens becomes a possibility, and of course your viewfinder is larger too, as a result.
While the Phase One P/P+ backs looked a bit "flat" to you, I can tell you they are as rock solid as any digital back ever made. They will last and last.
Another thing - if this is mostly about the lenses, and the camera really doesn't matter to you, then you might consider a digital back in Mamiya 645 interface, since there is a Phase One adapter for that camera that accepts Hasselblad V lenses. The adapter costs about $650, however, it is not unusual to find them for less, and there are other manufacturers that produce Hasselblad V to Mamiya 645 adapters (FotoDiox, etc). Not sure of their quality first hand, but for the price (often less than $150), perhaps worth a play if there's a good return policy. Traveling this route means a Mamiya/Phase One 645 AFD/AFD-II/AFD-III, as the DF models did away with the film back option. One of the benefits here is that there is more abundance of digital backs available in Mamiya/Phase One 645 interface than Hasselblad V. Your choices and options will widen.
Daniel, for the scenario you've described, I find this is emminently reasonable, if you know this is what you want.
Downsides?
- Digital Back repairs can be expensive.
- The camera technology may be frustrating compared to your experience with the D810, however I imagine you've already considered that.
- You might think it is fun and that you'd like it, but $3,000 is $3,000. I would take steps to hedge this bet (an eval rental, etc).
- People who play in the mainstream might make fun of you, but often this is a solid endorsement that you're on the right track.
Good luck!
* Side note (slightly self serving, hope you don't mind), we can be of help, should this path become serious for you. We do carry the models listed above, we test and inspect them extremely thoroughly, and even on a $3,000 digital back from 10-12 years ago, we'll place a 1 year warranty on every one we sell.
Steve Hendrix/CI
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I started in medium format with an older Hasselblad with a leaf aptus 17. It's a totally different feeling and really makes you study what you are shooting. I moved to a hasty h4x because I needed af and the true focus is amazing. But if you are looking to go back towards the roots of photography with a digital twist, the V setup with a digital back will bring you tremendous joy when you are shoooitng .
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For $3,000 you can buy a Pentax 645D with a two or three lenses. It's a DSLR, so a lot like your 810.
Don't think you'll find much of an upgrade from your 810, to be honest, if an upgrade at all. And you'll be limited on autofocus speed, high ISO, the number and quality of lenses, high speed sync, also hour doable, is not as easy, etc...
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I have an old Kodak Pro Plus back along with battery, 503cxi, winder and software that I have not used for awhile. It is 16 mp and produces great images. There is only one speed, (iso100) and no live view but I shot it tethered, which worked well. You can take it into the field also but you have to carry a good sized battery and you are connected to the camera via a cable from battery to the back.
Pretty much all the flower pictures on my website were created with this setup in the studio and field. I have printed some large prints off the back with great results.
http://jshetlerphotography.com/
It also works great for infrared. You can pull the IR blocking filter off simply by sliding a little button and use a R72 or 98 filter on the front of your lens and it produces great IR images. The sensor was originally made for a IR missile head so it is very sensitive to IR.