Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Bo_Dez on January 03, 2017, 09:50:40 am
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The S has diabolical reliability issues and still, everyone is being left in the dark. No permanent fix, just replace the defective part with another defective part which will soon break again, with months of waiting for repair times, some reported cases of 8 months for a repair turn around. This has been going on for a long time now, at least a year. People are left with a system they don't know if it will even work on shoot day and also one which has greatly diminished in value because of the issues.
http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-format-systems-and-digital-backs/60441-leica-007-warning-potential-buyers.html
http://www.getdpi.com/forum/leica/59271-leica-service.html
How can any company let it get to this? Let alone one with such high standing, heritage and abnormally premium prices. Surely this is grounds for class action law suit? This does not bode well for this company long term, their credibility and trustworthiness has all but evaporated.
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They have diabolical reliability issues and still, everyone is being left in the dark. This has been going on for a long time now, at least a year. People are left with a system they don't know if it will even work on shoot day and also one which has greatly diminished in value because of the issues.
http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-format-systems-and-digital-backs/60441-leica-007-warning-potential-buyers.html
http://www.getdpi.com/forum/leica/59271-leica-service.html
How can any company let it get to this? Let alone one with such high standing, heritage and abnormally premium prices. Surely this is grounds for class action law suit? This does not bode well for this company long term, their credibility and trustworthiness has all but evaporated.
I dont shoot Leica but I have a friend that bought into the S system. Like me, he is a professional, and last we spoke he was quite annoyed with the service.
He loves the camera body, how it works and feels, and the files are great, but service is a weak point. He had an issue with a lens under warranty, went to drop it off and they did not have a loaner to give him that was close to the focal length. This was his go to lens.
I think prior to the S system, Leica was mainly a high end consumer company with very few working professionals using the system for serious projects. And those professionals I knew that had a Leica camera were using it as a backup and/or grab & go camera.
So, really, service was never an issue they had to deal with since hobbyists and amateurs really don't need it. If an hobbyist's camera goes down, not too much of a big deal. Yes, it sucks, but he is not loosing money or looking bad because of it.
Now with the S system being marketed towards professionals, Leica is coming to the realization of how important good service is for that market.
Hopefully they improve.
They also may be trying to handle too many things at once. Them buying Sinar provides a great opportunity, but that could be diverting resources if they are trying to integrate/combine the systems too fast.
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Leica is coming to the realization of how important good service is for that market.
Was that not their focus at Photokina last year ?
Wetzlar, 20 July 2016: Leica Camera AG has announced that its presence this year at photokina 2016 in Cologne will be focused on professional photography and the needs of professional users ...
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I dont shoot Leica but I have a friend that bought into the S system. Like me, he is a professional, and last we spoke he was quite annoyed with the service.
He loves the camera body, how it works and feels, and the files are great, but service is a weak point. He had an issue with a lens under warranty, went to drop it off and they did not have a loaner to give him that was close to the focal length. This was his go to lens.
I think prior to the S system, Leica was mainly a high end consumer company with very few working professionals using the system for serious projects. And those professionals I knew that had a Leica camera were using it as a backup and/or grab & go camera.
So, really, service was never an issue they had to deal with since hobbyists and amateurs really don't need it. If an hobbyist's camera goes down, not too much of a big deal. Yes, it sucks, but he is not loosing money or looking bad because of it.
Now with the S system being marketed towards professionals, Leica is coming to the realization of how important good service is for that market.
Hopefully they improve.
They also may be trying to handle too many things at once. Them buying Sinar provides a great opportunity, but that could be diverting resources if they are trying to integrate/combine the systems too fast.
I think you might be surprised at how many professionals are using Leica.
Most of the main problem revolves around their failing lenses. They just have to make a permanent fix but they haven't a year (or more?) later.
You make a very good point about taking on too much.
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Was that not their focus at Photokina last year ?
Implementation is much different, especially across an ocean.
Remember, Rollie had great service in Europe, but horrible service in N. America, which hurt them immensely. This is part of the reason why P1 and Hassy use a dealership model.
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I think you might be surprised at how many professionals are using Leica.
I would not! The S system is great, and my comments about a lack of professionals using Leica's was directed to the time frame prior to the S being released.
Yes, the S system is very attractive, but the problems with the lenses and their apertures and leaf shutters, which only present themselves after thorough use, are not being dealt with efficiently. (This is what I have heard from a couple of users anyway.)
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I would not! The S system is great, and my comments about a lack of professionals using Leica's was directed to the time frame prior to the S being released.
Yes, the S system is very attractive, but the problems with the lenses and their apertures and leaf shutters, which only present themselves after thorough use, are not being dealt with efficiently. (This is what I have heard from a couple of users anyway.)
Ah, I see. yes it has been more recent times that they've picked things up on this level of pro use and I agree with you that they've probably take on too much too.
But what is it going to take to get them to resolve this? It's been a year or more it's crazy. All the hard work they did on creating such a great system is down the toilet.
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I have followed these issues closely, both at GetDpi and elsewhere:
http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/258959-state-of-s/
http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/248514-leica-s-lens-af-issue/
http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/266300-wtfs007-just-crapped-itself/
I have strong opinions and recent experience on this subject by way of contrast with another company. My strong opinion is that Leica's quality control and, more importantly, customer service on the S system is completely unacceptable. My recent experience is as follows:
I have both an S system and a Phase One system. I love the S for its files, form factor, and lenses. I have not had any lens failures, but given the many people who have reported lens failures, I'm always on edge. I have, however, had an issue with an S body: specifically, my backup S006 was checked by a dealer and found to have sensor corrosion. It was sent to Leica Germany in mid-november. As of now -- early January -- there has been no word whatsoever on when I can expect it back. It took over 4 weeks to get from the US through German customers and, as of Dec. 14, still had not even arrived at Leica. No offer of a loaner in the meantime, although I asked Leica directly (not the dealer -- it's not his fault). No offer of a replacement camera rather than waiting a gazillion years for mine to be repaired and returned, although I asked that too. All I've received in response to my half dozen queries has basically been "please be patient; sorry for the inconvenience," and there's at least a week delay before I even get that kind of half-assed response. If this is all their new "professional service division" plans to do, it's very little indeed.
Contrast that with another recent experience with my Phase One XF. As XF owners know, the original style prism latch and battery door are problematic. They haven't caused me any big problems, but are of sufficient concern that I wanted to go ahead and get them fixed. I emailed my dealer (Digital Transitions) immediately before the holidays and got a response in less than 12 hours. They then offered to send me a loaner via priority shipping for me to use for the duration, and said that I should get mine back and repaired in a week to 10 days. They moved so fast that I haven't even managed to send mine in for repair yet (i'll do it today).
Now: I do not earn my primary income from photography, so I suppose I can "afford" the expected several month downtime for my S006 to be repaired and returned to me (yes: *several months* according to my dealer based on his past experience). But if I depended upon photography to make a living, there's no way I could do that. Notwithstanding the quality of the S system, I could not in good conscience at this point recommend to any professional photographer that s/he invest in the S system. Will portraits shot in natural light with the S007 and 100mm summicron at 2.0 look prettier than anything shot with my XF under similar conditions? Yep. But that doesn't matter if (a) the S doesn't work and (b) you need it to work so you can put bread on the table.
Edit: re-reading the above makes it sound like I don't like the files from my XF system. That's not the case: love them, in fact. Just pointing out that the S007 and 100mm summicron files at wide aperture are indeed pretty and, when that look is called for, prettier than what I can do with the XF. Which is why I have both. Now if Phase provided a Leica lens (or Contax lens) adapter for the XF body as I've repeatedly suggested, I'd be extremely happy and would ditch the S body. That wouldn't solve the problem that the S lenses that I'd use on the XF might at any moment crap out on me, but then I could at least divest myself from any further investments in S system bodies in the future. And, if I were a new buyer and such adapters were available, I wouldn't have bought the S body at all, purely for economic reasons.
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Well said William, I agree about your sentiments with the 100 Summicron v Phase One. To me, nothing beats the look of the Leica S files but a camera that is never with you or is a mystery if it will work is absolutely useless to anyone, let alone someone who needs it to make a living, let alone, again, the huge initial outlay in the cost of a system and the lenses. It's madness.
The whole thing really is unacceptable, yet they sit there in silence and do nothing except give lip service and promises of "focussing on the professional" and new "professional unit" - that was half a year ago and still nothing changes. The only thing they are focussing on professionals with is a magnifying glass, in the sun. What will it take? Surely this is headed for a class action law suit?
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This notion that professionals are entitled to better service than people who don't make their living through photography is nonsense and offensive. If you buy something, you are entitled to a product that performs according to specs, and when it doesn't you are entitled to timely repairs, particularly if the product is under warranty. It is irrelevant what you do with the photographs you produce with the camera.
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This notion that professionals are entitled to better service than people who don't make their living through photography is nonsense and offensive. If you buy something, you are entitled to a product that performs according to specs, and when it doesn't you are entitled to timely repairs, particularly if the product is under warranty. It is irrelevant what you do with the photographs you produce with the camera.
Come on now, no one said that, period!
Why do people get so annoyed so easily now a days when spending a little more time to fully comprehend the text would put any offense to rest? ???
It is more like if I am a professional, I would not put up with a system that did not have exceptional service. It's what I expect and need in order to work and make money.
Now, of course, I would expect exceptional service to come at a price, and, if an amateur wanted to spend that same price, I would expect that amateur to receive the same service regardless. If he did not, I would consider that to be a negative against the company.
However, if someone bought another lower priced product and service was not up to par, that's on the purchaser, regardless of their status.
The S system was marketed as a professional system with a professional's price point. It should come with exceptional service (for anyone who buys it).
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This notion that professionals are entitled to better service than people who don't make their living through photography is nonsense and offensive. If you buy something, you are entitled to a product that performs according to specs, and when it doesn't you are entitled to timely repairs, particularly if the product is under warranty. It is irrelevant what you do with the photographs you produce with the camera.
No one here has said that...
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Implementation is much different, especially across an ocean.
Remember, Rollie had great service in Europe, but horrible service in N. America, which hurt them immensely. This is part of the reason why P1 and Hassy use a dealership model.
Joe - I agree with you!
My earlier post was a caustic comment on Leica's pre-Photokina press release. [/insert-disgruntled-face].
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The S system was marketed as a professional system with a professional's price point. It should come with exceptional service (for anyone who buys it).
Leica tried that at launch - there clearly weren't enough takers or else the price wasn't attractive when compared to the competition. Today, the price may be, but the service/support is wanting and more importantly the S lenses though excellent may well be 'lacking' in the AF department. Something that, in a way is worse, 'cos it's not something that can be fixed by good service alone.
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Hi Joe,
You know, this is just BS!
If an amateur looses images is just as bad as pro. That person may never go to that place again.
Amateurs take pictures for their love of imaging, but don't ever believe that those pictures matter less to amateurs than to professionals!
Right, loosing a customer is bad for your business. Memories lost may not have a business value, but be sure they cause pain for the amateur.
Amateurs don't have the budget you are accustomed to, but they still care a lot!
Best regards
Erik
I dont shoot Leica but I have a friend that bought into the S system. Like me, he is a professional, and last we spoke he was quite annoyed with the service.
He loves the camera body, how it works and feels, and the files are great, but service is a weak point. He had an issue with a lens under warranty, went to drop it off and they did not have a loaner to give him that was close to the focal length. This was his go to lens.
I think prior to the S system, Leica was mainly a high end consumer company with very few working professionals using the system for serious projects. And those professionals I knew that had a Leica camera were using it as a backup and/or grab & go camera.
So, really, service was never an issue they had to deal with since hobbyists and amateurs really don't need it. If an hobbyist's camera goes down, not too much of a big deal. Yes, it sucks, but he is not loosing money or looking bad because of it.
Now with the S system being marketed towards professionals, Leica is coming to the realization of how important good service is for that market.
Hopefully they improve.
They also may be trying to handle too many things at once. Them buying Sinar provides a great opportunity, but that could be diverting resources if they are trying to integrate/combine the systems too fast.
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Hi,
They have a red dot…
Just to say, other companies may stink, too. But unless you run into a problem, world is just fine. I shoot Sony and Phase One P45+. My understanding is that Sony repairs are expensive and having repairs on the P45+ you need to go trough a dealer that costs you a lot.
Fortunately, I had near zero issues the 46 years I was shooting Minolta, Pentax 67, Sony and Hasselblad V with Phase one. So my world is just fine.
But, sooner our later something will break down and that is the time your will appreciate a professional service from Canon or Nikon at a reasonable fee.
Best regards
Erik
The S has diabolical reliability issues and still, everyone is being left in the dark. No permanent fix, just replace the defective part with another defective part which will soon break again, with months of waiting for repair times, some reported cases of 8 months for a repair turn around. This has been going on for a long time now, at least a year. People are left with a system they don't know if it will even work on shoot day and also one which has greatly diminished in value because of the issues.
http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-format-systems-and-digital-backs/60441-leica-007-warning-potential-buyers.html
http://www.getdpi.com/forum/leica/59271-leica-service.html
How can any company let it get to this? Let alone one with such high standing, heritage and abnormally premium prices. Surely this is grounds for class action law suit? This does not bode well for this company long term, their credibility and trustworthiness has all but evaporated.
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This notion that professionals are entitled to better service than people who don't make their living through photography is nonsense and offensive. If you buy something, you are entitled to a product that performs according to specs, and when it doesn't you are entitled to timely repairs, particularly if the product is under warranty. It is irrelevant what you do with the photographs you produce with the camera.
I agree! Well obviously the buyer is irrelevant, and all buyers must get a good service and a camera that works as it should, but if you need a camera day in and day out to do your job, to pay your mortgage, to put food on the table, and you can't do your job because the shitty plastic gear in it broke then you are screwed, right? There is a lot at stake for a person who relies on their equipment to do their job. And some of that is impossible to repair should you lose it; Your reputation, your career, your livelihood. There is zero room for this sort of error in such a highly competitive and fragile business. That is the only point being made here and the camera is marketed at these people. But sure, no matter who buys the camera they still deserve the same product and service.
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Hi Joe,
You know, this is just BS!
If an amateur looses images is just as bad as pro. That person may never go to that place again.
Amateurs take pictures for their love of imaging, but don't ever believe that those pictures matter less to amateurs than to professionals!
Right, loosing a customer is bad for your business. Memories lost may not have a business value, but be sure they cause pain for the amateur.
Amateurs don't have the budget you are accustomed to, but they still care a lot!
Best regards
Erik
Sorry, but it's crazy to compare an enthusiast who has none of their financial wellbeing, their reputation, their job, their ability to put food on the table, tied to their equipment and pictures with a professional. Losing a customer is not only bad, it can be catastrophic and total melt down. It can mean years, several years, of trying to claw back what or some of what you had with the risk of never getting back. One failure is usually the end of the road for a client and they don't just let you back 6 months or a year later. Losing pictures is not nice at all but think how you would feel if losing those photos also lost what ever the job you have as well. It's pain on another level, it's nothing compared to losing your wellbeing, your financial security, your ability to provide for your family, months on end of no sleep from worry, and most photographers who have been in the business 20-30 years don't have a lot of other options.
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Leica tried that at launch - there clearly weren't enough takers or else the price wasn't attractive when compared to the competition. Today, the price may be, but the service/support is wanting and more importantly the S lenses though excellent may well be 'lacking' in the AF department. Something that, in a way is worse, 'cos it's not something that can be fixed by good service alone.
Exactly. This is not just about service, better service is not going to change a thing, ultimately. This is about fundamental design and fixing what isn't working. It's about responsibility for your customers, some of which have spent the best part of $100K on a system they have bought in good faith of working without the worry of getting through a shoot or not. The part that breaks is plastic - hurry up and make it metal. There are no excuses for this level of inaction and lack of care. They need to fix it and fix it fast.
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Professionals have a backup camera/lenses and makes sure they have a workflow that backups all images all the time. That's why they're professionals. Everything breaks down sooner or later, and it's your job to make sure that when that happens you are prepared.
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Hi Joe,
You know, this is just BS!
If an amateur looses images is just as bad as pro. That person may never go to that place again.
Amateurs take pictures for their love of imaging, but don't ever believe that those pictures matter less to amateurs than to professionals!
Right, loosing a customer is bad for your business. Memories lost may not have a business value, but be sure they cause pain for the amateur.
Amateurs don't have the budget you are accustomed to, but they still care a lot!
Best regards
Erik
Erik, you're failing to actually try and comprehend what it was that I was saying, and instead, allowing your emotions to take over!
I was not saying amateurs do not deserve service as good as a pro especially if they pay for it. But less, much less, amateurs are concerned about receiving the same quality of service that a professional needs. Therefore, companies that focus mainly on amateurs tend to focus, to a less extent, on service. Hence, since Leica was mainly a consumer company, I am not surprised their service is less then spectacular.
Now if you have a problem with this, buy somewhere else, just like any professional would do.
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I agree! Well obviously the buyer is irrelevant, and all buyers must get a good service and a camera that works as it should, but if you need a camera day in and day out to do your job, to pay your mortgage, to put food on the table, and you can't do your job because the shitty plastic gear in it broke then you are screwed, right? There is a lot at stake for a person who relies on their equipment to do their job. And some of that is impossible to repair should you lose it; Your reputation, your career, your livelihood. There is zero room for this sort of error in such a highly competitive and fragile business. That is the only point being made here and the camera is marketed at these people. But sure, no matter who buys the camera they still deserve the same product and service.
Said a little better here.
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Professionals have a backup camera/lenses and makes sure they have a workflow that backups all images all the time. That's why they're professionals. Everything breaks down sooner or later, and it's your job to make sure that when that happens you are prepared.
Well, yes, but that's somewhat beside the point. Back when I earned my primary income from photography, I did always have a backup with me on site. However: There's a huge difference between having a backup on the *off chance* that something will break versus needing a backup because something is so unreliable that it has *a great likelihood* of breaking in such a way to make the job un-doable. In the former scenario, you likely do what I used to: take a crappy backup camera with you and a lens or two for that camera just as insurance, not because you're assuming you'll actually need to use them; in the latter, you'd want to plan to take an entire second Leica S kit because the failure rate is so high and the service so poor. Needing to have a second entire kit on hand eats into your profit margin sufficiently that (1) you go out of business or (2) you start asking yourself why you're using such an unreliable system in the first place. #2 is what people here are saying; that's all.
Analogy: If you were self-employed as a long-haul truck driver, you'd carry a toolkit, jumper cables, spare tires, and the like: You wouldn't carry an entire extra truck with you because you were concerned that the truck you paid tens of thousands of dollars for would stop working entirely.
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Professionals have a backup camera/lenses and makes sure they have a workflow that backups all images all the time. That's why they're professionals. Everything breaks down sooner or later, and it's your job to make sure that when that happens you are prepared.
Sure, things go wrong. I have everything backed up. But when your $85K system is with you for 2 months in the year then you've got a problem. When your equipment comes back months later, only to need to be returned shortly after, you've got a problem. When you need to go buy a backup for your backup, your accountant points out that your career is no longer financially feasible and you've got a problem. When your system costs $85K, it becomes a problem to spend another $85K on unnecessarily necessary backups. Sure, you can have a cheapy, but you're not booked by a high end client for that, the reason you spend so much on a system is because it does a certain thing, makes pictures that look a certain way, when you don't deliver what your client was booking you for they go away and they don't come back. When your shoot goes tits up because your $85K system has shat itself it tends to mess your day up even when you have a backup. And then your next week trying to deal with Leica service. Days that you don't get back and days that costs you money when you are self employed. If your work computer failed and your employer asked you to fix it, or orgainse fixing it, but told you they weren't going to pay your for those days I'm sure you'd have a problem with it too. When the threat of it happening is there every time you turn your $85K system on, it adds to the stress of the shoot and some shoots are so fast paced you don't even have time to deal with failures. I could go on but...see this is what it does to you. You get angry. Over a damn camera.
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I've been shooting Leica M for several years now and granted I have very limited experience with their S lineup but if their support for the M system is any indication, they are just not geared towards professionals at all anymore. I had a lens that took 6 months to be serviced, which was also my go-to lens and they had no loaner for me because all their loaners 50mm Summilux lenses were out to camera reviewers (yes, really). After about 4 months of me complaining every week, the Leica Store in Los Angeles finally loaned me their in-store demo copy (I think just to make me go away). The people in the store were great but turn-around time and communication from the repair facility in NJ is atrocious.
More recently I wanted to get my M body calibrated (under warranty) and the staff of the store suggested I pay to go to a local indie service shop because they estimated it would be several weeks and possibly months before NJ would get to it! I was dumbfounded.
The lesson I think is this: if you invest in Leica gear, DO NOT expect to get the same level of professional support you would get from Hasselblad or Phase One for the same money. It's a shame, since the S system is really impressive but I just can't afford to be without gear for that long, which is why I'm sticking with my H2+Phase Back setup for the time being.
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Erik, you're failing to actually try and comprehend what it was that I was saying, and instead, allowing your emotions to take over!
I was not saying amateurs do not deserve service as good as a pro especially if they pay for it. But less, much less, amateurs are concerned about receiving the same quality of service that a professional needs. Therefore, companies that focus mainly on amateurs tend to focus, to a less extent, on service. Hence, since Leica was mainly a consumer company, I am not surprised their service is less then spectacular.
Now if you have a problem with this, buy somewhere else, just like any professional would do.
(http://www.russellrutherford.com/peace_love.jpg)
I believe everything that is said here about the S lenses and Leica service, though I use contax lenses on my S2 and never had an issue.
I also have the Leica 120 Macro and zero issues also and though I don't use the S2 the way I use other cameras, I do shoot a lot of frames with it and the 120 so maybe I've been lucky.
I also love the dng file that works in about any post production suite and the lemo connectors that are rock solid. Also the fact I can put on H or Contax lenses makes for a versatile system.
I'll use the S2 next week and I love the camera, but Leica is a strange company. I was at the Mayfair store in London before I bought the S2 and they treated me like Royalty, though Steve Hendrix hooked me up with a great deal on an S2 and the 120 and two contax adapters so I went with Steve.
The Mayfair guy called me and asked when I was buying and I explained I had purchased and why and you'd think I called his mum a bad name, cause he practically hung up on me.
Leica service is dead slow early with my m8 and my 90mm it wouldn't focus with accuracy so I sent it in and it took about 3 months, it came back same issue exactly the same so I sent it back and a month later got it and it worked.
Leica sells cameras as professional equipment and they need the follow up to make it right.
But Canon can be frustrating also. CPS is fast, but I let my membership lapse, just didn't think about it during a busy time and last month had a small issue with a 1dx and signing up again is painful.
It took 4 phone calls and was told I needed all the serial numbers of the "qualified" equipment to reach a certain amount of points and have to drive to the Hollywood CPS to apply. The last guy I talked to was knowledgeable and trying to help but as he said "rules are rules".
Anyway I love Leica cameras and yes some people find them glitchy, but their design philosophy and feel is awesome, plus the look of the file is pretty amazing to me. Next weeks project will be shot with the S2 and though I have backups I don't think I'll need em". (knock on wood)
Given that, reading this lens gear thing has saved me some money. I was going to buy three more Leica lenses, but will just stay with what I have.
In regards to this amateur vs. pro discussion, some people get their knickers in a twist. I like Eric but he's always sensitive about this and I'm sure I'll catch heat just by mentioning it. That's why I don't do twitter. And let's be real. If it's memories 99% of whatever your shooting at a family get together has been covered by 200 mobile phone snaps.
I know shooting for yourself is important to the photographer, but when you've dropped 100 large on a project and you have a room full of people counting on you, there is a monetary difference and you don't just lose the memories, you loose a lot more than that and once again that's not a knock on a non pro.
But nothing worries a client like a camera problem. They assume (and rightfully so) that the last problem a professional photographer should have would be with a camera.
IMO
BC
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I have 5 Leica bodies and so far have not had any issue with them.
I did experience the AF failure once for one of my two S lenses. Leica repaired free of charge but it took 2 months which is too long...
To the OP, this topic has already been discussed ad nauseam on the Leica and GetDPI forums...
Not sure what you want to achieve by also opening the exact same discussion here...
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Come on now, no one said that, period!
Why do people get so annoyed so easily now a days when spending a little more time to fully comprehend the text would put any offense to rest? ???
I suggest that before you lecture me, you read your post, which states: "So, really, service was never an issue they had to deal with since hobbyists and amateurs really don't need it. If an hobbyist's camera goes down, not too much of a big deal. Yes, it sucks, but he is not loosing money or looking bad because of it."
You said service is not a big deal for hobbyists and amateurs because they don't need it. Not a big deal if their cameras go down. Apparently only photographs made for money matter.
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I've had a ton of stuff break in the last few weeks (was bound to happen, I shot 200,000 photos in 2016). I have no Leica input, but just wanted to say that (and I've been a member for years), NPS is largely a joke. I've had poor experiences with repairs on my Elinchroms, Nikons and my original H1 (direct from Hasselblad in NJ/Sweden) and know a H5D-50c shooter who was without his camera for months this fall with no updates. Compared with recent issues with my Credo 40 that also broke, and Capture Integration couldn't have been better in getting me a loaner, and eventually an upgrade to a Credo 60.
-Doug
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This is no way to treat customers, whether they are professionals or not. I read on another blog a photography business owner, now an a college photography instructor, sent in a Digital M for repair and it took Leica an entire year to repair it. In the meantime, there was no correspondence from Leica to her about the status of her repair.
When I shot a lot of pro racing and was a member of CPS, Canon would turn around a repair in three days flat. Often times, they would not charge for parts, just service labor. First class support.
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I suggest that before you lecture me, you read your post, which states: "So, really, service was never an issue they had to deal with since hobbyists and amateurs really don't need it. If an hobbyist's camera goes down, not too much of a big deal. Yes, it sucks, but he is not loosing money or looking bad because of it."
You said service is not a big deal for hobbyists and amateurs because they don't need it. Not a big deal if their cameras go down. Apparently only photographs made for money matter.
My God! Whether you realize it or not, you're turning my words into a straw man, which is what is annoying me so much. I never intended to knock a non-pro, which is what you are making me out to do.
Anyway, if your camera goes down on a personal project, regardless if you are a hobbyist or a pro just out having fun, it sucks, but it is not nearly as bad, or at the same level, as it happening on a paid shoot with a room full of people looking at you. This is absolutely true, but it is not the equivalent as saying photographs are less important to an amateur, what you are trying to turn my words into (hence a straw man).
Lets say hobbyists really don't want service nearly as much as a professional, therefore consumer companies don't focus on it as much.
In any other industry, everyone would agree. I have a client who is a high end cabinet manufacturer. In his facility, the first thing you will see is a $30K cabinet saw, the kind where the motor and table are separate, both bolted to their own concrete pad, 10 HP motor, took two days to install it, and service is included throughout the warranty. Now, of course if a hobbyist woodworker wanted to purchase it, I would expect the same level of service for him as my client. But if that saw breaks down for the hobbyist working on his latest project it is very different then it breaking down for my client who has it running for two shifts a day, 5 days a week and a huge backlog of things that need to get built.
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Lets say hobbyists really don't want service nearly as much as a professional, therefore consumer companies don't focus on it as much.
I won't get into your choice of words and phrases, and will assume you meant no offense. Having said that, I will offer a number of observations
In the camera market, calling a camera "professional" does not mean that people who make their living from photography are the exclusive buyers. I just upgraded my Olympus OMD 1, Mark I to the II. I bought two lenses designated "Pro" when I ordered the camera. I already had two labeled "Pro." My Canon lenses are in their "Pro" line. I use a Canon Pro-1000 printer (I'd use larger floor model, but space is an issue). I also use Eizo monitors, and RAID backup systems. I suspect I am not all that unusual. To me, a "Pro" designation carries the implication that the product is made of high quality components and is cutting edge design.
I can't say for sure, but I have heard a number of times that those who make their living from photography "owe" us "amateurs" a debt of gratitude. What I have been told is that we provide the volume that speeds develop of professional products with new features and better specs.
As for service, it is critical. Leica is opening up boutique stores around the world. The stores are beautifully fixtured, but at the end of the day I would prefer they put that money into building a U.S. repair operation that rivals Canon's. My experience with Canon is a 7-business day turn around. Like it or not, equipment breaks, particularly the high-end gear. People should not have to wait 6 months to get a camera repaired, which has happened with Leica.
Right now, many people are debating whether to go the Hasselblad X1D or the Fuji camera route. Each camera had its distinct pluses and minuses. If I decide to purchase one of those cameras, a huge factor will be service. I have no experience with Fuji, so I don't know how they handle repairs, but for me, the biggest problem/concern with the X1D delay is that this is possibly a sign that this company does not have its act together, including repair service. If it can't get the cameras out the door for sale, will it be able to any better with repairs? Fuji may not be as storied as Hasselblad, but if their repair service is on par with Canon's, I would be inclined to go with the Fuji.
As for wanting service: Phase One has effectively let me make that choice with their Leaf backs. No, I don't have a big fee shoot scheduled for Vogue next week, so I don't need the extra cost that comes with the Phase One loaner program anywhere in the world on a number of hours notice--at least that is how I recall how it works. So I went with the Leaf. But what I do want is to send my camera in for repair and get it back within a reasonable amount of time.
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Interesting discussion. Let’s agree we all want good service. I for one, choose my equipment based on performance and service. That includes buying from a dealer that will support me. Digital Transitions has been extremely supportive for my Phase system and Allen’s Camera has been very supportive for my Nikon which is my backup system. Technically, I’m a hobbyist as I don’t make my living from photography even though I do exhibit my work as well as sell it. I do expect a high quality of service and will not stay with a system that isn’t supported. I had the S2 for a while but I did not care for the level of support I was getting. I shot Canon for years and loved the support but the performance didn’t keep up with my expectations. I travel to Japan in a couple of months for 2 week shoot. If my camera breaks that’s a big cost in terms travel cost and time as I might not be able to get back there for a couple of years. In the case of Japan, I will take the Phase One as the primary camera and take 2 Nikon bodies and a few lenses as backup - that's my insurance. That’s a lot of expense but who said photography was inexpensive.
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Jack, bring it back in, Joe isn't writing a legal paper. The notion of purchasing a product and getting that extra level of service is in other industries, not just cameras. Pro level service & support are critical to some fields - broadcast, production, etc - and some consumers purchase products based on the idea that they'll get the same level service as a 'pro'. Some companies do a better job, some fail at it regularly.
Sony has issues because it can't service it's cameras to the same level Canon can, and Nikon has slipped (the whole selling of parts for third party repairs) in the last few years. Leica service seems to be pretty slow, to the point where frustrations leave an owner one option, to b**ch online and hope for the best. After sale service and support are part of what any consumer uses to judge their next purchase.
When people buy a 1Dx or a D5, they expect that they can shoot forever, and shy of dropping a camera into a pool, any service issue can be resolved within a week. Medium Format cameras are at another level, and part of what makes a 'dealer cost' higher for both new & used is that dealer being able to support you if/when that camera fails. There is a cost to this level of service, and Professionals know this, and happily/begrudgingly pay for it.
The issue is that these 'pro costs' are not compatible with this bargain or 'lowest price online' mentality.
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Joe:
Not sure that we disagree on anything. I said that I opted for the Leaf back rather than the Phase One because I didn't need (or wasn't willing to pay for the) the loaner on demand. My experience with Leica has been mixed. On occasion they have turned around a camera in four or five weeks, but in others it has been five to six months. The M doesn't strike me as anymore complex than a Canon, although the rangefinder is probably tricky--my repairs, however, have been sensor replacements and the shutter button, not the rangefinder.
I have several Schneider lenses, which look to be very complex mechanisms The gentleman at Precision Camera is fantastic and turns stuff around very quickly in my experience--although I do live in Chicago so I can drop stuff off.
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First of all, I think that reliability, warranty and service are fundamental for any kind of equipment, whether addressed to professional or amateur customers. Price is relatively important in this, IMO, meaning that for someone who can invest 100.000 US in a camera system his 100.000 US are as important as are 1.000 US for someone who can just invest 1.000 US in his. To me, both customers have exactly the same rights in this scenario.
Let's not forget that NO manufacturer is releasing faulty products on purpose, and that NO manufacturer enjoys the bad rap that this creates both online and in the "real world". I am sure Leica didn't purposely choose sensors that would corrode in a few years, nor to put AF motors that would break in their lenses. $.it happens to everyone in every field, the question is how manufacturers deal with it.
Leica had some serious problems with the timing of their service in the past, but it seems to me that they took notice and that the new Professional Service now in place for owners of the S and SL is a step in the right direction. Let's wait and see if they really turned the corner on this issue. By the way, back to the OP, it is obvious to me that if a lens spends more than one month in the mail to get to Leica, that is hardly Leica's fault, as are Customs problems and the like.
Putting things into perspective, trying to avoid generalisation and the unnecessary panic generated by online complaining and not forgetting that users without problems are very likely the majority and are generally silent, I can say that the S 007 is a very reliable camera that just works, and that there haven't been any "structural" problems reported so far (such as the sensor corrosion that plagued the previous generation of Leica sensors, or the like). Of course, a single camera can fail, but it's definitely not the norm for the S 007. More, the camera FW is getting regular updates, which is a sign of Leica's commitment to the system. The corrosion issue with older S cameras' CCD sensor has been acknowledged and free repairs have been offered, which if implemented in a reasonable timeframe and with a permanent solution is a good enough sign of customer care and attention on Leica's part for me.
There definitely is a problem with the AF motor in Leica S lenses; Leica knows that and offered free repairs for everyone forever, which, again if implemented in a reasonable timeframe and with a permanent solution, seems to me to be a good solution. Again, I am pretty sure that most S lenses out there didn't fail (yet, perhaps) and that most will perhaps never fail. Of course, perception is extremely important in this, and reported failures have a much stronger impact online than non-reported non-failures. Could Leica have addressed this faster and better? Definitely. Did they address it? Definitely. Could their implementation of the repair system have been done better? Possibly, but I can't know that, and honestly I am more interested in the future than in the past. As a S and SL user I'd like to hope that the new Professional Service will help improving matters, that faulty lenses will be repaired faster and permanently, and that Leica learned from the experience and worked accordingly when they designed their Professional Service.
Best,
Vieri
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First of all, I think that reliability, warranty and service are fundamental for any kind of equipment, whether addressed to professional or amateur customers. Price is relatively important in this, IMO, meaning that for someone who can invest 100.000 US in a camera system his 100.000 US are as important as are 1.000 US for someone who can just invest 1.000 US in his. To me, both customers have exactly the same rights in this scenario.
Let's not forget that NO manufacturer is releasing faulty products on purpose, and that NO manufacturer enjoys the bad rap that this creates both online and in the "real world". I am sure Leica didn't purposely choose sensors that would corrode in a few years, nor to put AF motors that would break in their lenses. $.it happens to everyone in every field, the question is how manufacturers deal with it.
Leica had some serious problems with the timing of their service in the past, but it seems to me that they took notice and that the new Professional Service now in place for owners of the S and SL is a step in the right direction. Let's wait and see if they really turned the corner on this issue. By the way, back to the OP, it is obvious to me that if a lens spends more than one month in the mail to get to Leica, that is hardly Leica's fault, as are Customs problems and the like.
Putting things into perspective, trying to avoid generalisation and the unnecessary panic generated by online complaining and not forgetting that users without problems are very likely the majority and are generally silent, I can say that the S 007 is a very reliable camera that just works, and that there haven't been any "structural" problems reported so far (such as the sensor corrosion that plagued the previous generation of Leica sensors, or the like). Of course, a single camera can fail, but it's definitely not the norm for the S 007. More, the camera FW is getting regular updates, which is a sign of Leica's commitment to the system. The corrosion issue with older S cameras' CCD sensor has been acknowledged and free repairs have been offered, which if implemented in a reasonable timeframe and with a permanent solution is a good enough sign of customer care and attention on Leica's part for me.
There definitely is a problem with the AF motor in Leica S lenses; Leica knows that and offered free repairs for everyone forever, which, again if implemented in a reasonable timeframe and with a permanent solution, seems to me to be a good solution. Again, I am pretty sure that most S lenses out there didn't fail (yet, perhaps) and that most will perhaps never fail. Of course, perception is extremely important in this, and reported failures have a much stronger impact online than non-reported non-failures. Could Leica have addressed this faster and better? Definitely. Did they address it? Definitely. Could their implementation of the repair system have been done better? Possibly, but I can't know that, and honestly I am more interested in the future than in the past. As a S and SL user I'd like to hope that the new Professional Service will help improving matters, that faulty lenses will be repaired faster and permanently, and that Leica learned from the experience and worked accordingly when they designed their Professional Service.
Best,
Vieri
In summary: Leica Ambassador says very reliable and an interesting future. Leica owners report completely unreliable and are getting rid of them.
I don't want to hear lip service and optimism, i want to hear solutions and have this done with.
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In summary: Leica Ambassador says very reliable and an interesting future. Leica owners report completely unreliable and are getting rid of them.
I don't want to hear lip service and optimism, i want to hear solutions and have this done with.
?? Well, I guess you haven't read my post. I hope others will before posting back. Best,
Vieri
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Hi,
A lot of good points!
But, I may add some other points:
- Anyone can have a piece of equipment failing. In that case it matters a lot how it is handled.
- If someone has multiple technical issues with a system it indicates that there is a problem. If we say that failure ration is 1/100, the chance of a dual failure would be 0.00001.
- Leica seems to have a high dose of NIH (Not Invented Here) complex. Taking proven solutions is mostly preferable to developing new solutions. Leica seems to have a lot of problems no one else seems to have, like corroding sensors and inconsistent AF system on the S.
- Lloyd Chambers made a lot of noise about issue with AF on several Leica S cameras, including a system belonging to a client. If the system was reliable it would be most improbable that a single tester would encounter problems with 3-5 camera.
- Leica may have the attitude that if you have a problem we fix it. That worked fine with SAAB cars (a late Swedisch vendor of cars), but would not hold in times of Japanese lean production and Six Sigma, that essentially means that you are doing things right on first try.
Best regards
Erik
First of all, I think that reliability, warranty and service are fundamental for any kind of equipment, whether addressed to professional or amateur customers. Price is relatively important in this, IMO, meaning that for someone who can invest 100.000 US in a camera system his 100.000 US are as important as are 1.000 US for someone who can just invest 1.000 US in his. To me, both customers have exactly the same rights in this scenario.
Let's not forget that NO manufacturer is releasing faulty products on purpose, and that NO manufacturer enjoys the bad rap that this creates both online and in the "real world". I am sure Leica didn't purposely choose sensors that would corrode in a few years, nor to put AF motors that would break in their lenses. $.it happens to everyone in every field, the question is how manufacturers deal with it.
Leica had some serious problems with the timing of their service in the past, but it seems to me that they took notice and that the new Professional Service now in place for owners of the S and SL is a step in the right direction. Let's wait and see if they really turned the corner on this issue. By the way, back to the OP, it is obvious to me that if a lens spends more than one month in the mail to get to Leica, that is hardly Leica's fault, as are Customs problems and the like.
Putting things into perspective, trying to avoid generalisation and the unnecessary panic generated by online complaining and not forgetting that users without problems are very likely the majority and are generally silent, I can say that the S 007 is a very reliable camera that just works, and that there haven't been any "structural" problems reported so far (such as the sensor corrosion that plagued the previous generation of Leica sensors, or the like). Of course, a single camera can fail, but it's definitely not the norm for the S 007. More, the camera FW is getting regular updates, which is a sign of Leica's commitment to the system. The corrosion issue with older S cameras' CCD sensor has been acknowledged and free repairs have been offered, which if implemented in a reasonable timeframe and with a permanent solution is a good enough sign of customer care and attention on Leica's part for me.
There definitely is a problem with the AF motor in Leica S lenses; Leica knows that and offered free repairs for everyone forever, which, again if implemented in a reasonable timeframe and with a permanent solution, seems to me to be a good solution. Again, I am pretty sure that most S lenses out there didn't fail (yet, perhaps) and that most will perhaps never fail. Of course, perception is extremely important in this, and reported failures have a much stronger impact online than non-reported non-failures. Could Leica have addressed this faster and better? Definitely. Did they address it? Definitely. Could their implementation of the repair system have been done better? Possibly, but I can't know that, and honestly I am more interested in the future than in the past. As a S and SL user I'd like to hope that the new Professional Service will help improving matters, that faulty lenses will be repaired faster and permanently, and that Leica learned from the experience and worked accordingly when they designed their Professional Service.
Best,
Vieri
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It is obvious to me that if a lens spends more than one month in the mail to get to Leica, that is hardly Leica's fault, as are Customs problems and the like.
I'm the one who wrote that, not the OP. In any event, if you read my full post, you'll see that my problem with Leica is not the customs delay -- which I'm well aware they have no control over -- but the utter lack of any proactive communication on their part and the lack of any response to my repeated requests to be provided with a loaner or a replacement camera in light of the expected several months delay *after* they get the camera from customs. And this is all notwithstanding the fact that their alleged new "professional service division" is now in place.
This is why I said I can't in good conscience recommend the S system to a working pro at the moment. The defects and failures, combined with their laissez faire attitude toward customer service, combined with the months long delays in actual repairs, is untenable for someone who depends upon a camera to run a business as their sole source of income. I myself "can" be out of action for several months without it having the effect of ruining my business or rendering me unable to pay the rent; I don't like it, but at least I can, in theory, put up with it.
Oh, and by the way: my last email to them was on December 27: still no reply whatsoever as of January 5. (And please don't tell me about the lengthy European holidays: that just furthers the point that they're not in a position to provide a professional level of service. I got a response from Phase One (well, from my dealer) within twelve hours of sending it, during their (and my) holiday vacation. And that reinforces the point that Leica's centralized model of "send everything to Germany and deal directly with Germany" rather than a dealer network that is able to perform repairs and provide replacements is an untenable relationship for a working pro.)
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I'm the one who wrote that, not the OP. In any event, if you read my full post, you'll see that my problem with Leica is not the customs delay -- which I'm well aware they have no control over -- but the utter lack of any proactive communication on their part and the lack of any response to my repeated requests to be provided with a loaner or a replacement camera in light of the expected several months delay *after* they get the camera from customs. And this is all notwithstanding the fact that their alleged new "professional service division" is now in place.
This is why I said I can't in good conscience recommend the S system to a working pro at the moment. The defects and failures, combined with their laissez faire attitude toward customer service, combined with the months long delays in actual repairs, is untenable for someone who depends upon a camera to run a business as their sole source of income. I myself "can" be out of action for several months without it having the effect of ruining my business or rendering me unable to pay the rent; I don't like it, but at least I can, in theory, put up with it.
Oh, and by the way: my last email to them was on December 27: still no reply whatsoever as of January 5. (And please don't tell me about the lengthy European holidays: that just furthers the point that they're not in a position to provide a professional level of service. I got a response from Phase One (well, from my dealer) within twelve hours of sending it, during their (and my) holiday vacation. And that reinforces the point that Leica's centralized model of "send everything to Germany and deal directly with Germany" rather than a dealer network that is able to perform repairs and provide replacements is an untenable relationship for a working pro.)
William,
sorry for the person exchange, my bad.
In your post, you wrote: "It was sent to Leica Germany in mid-november. As of now -- early January -- there has been no word whatsoever on when I can expect it back. It took over 4 weeks to get from the US through German customers and, as of Dec. 14, still had not even arrived at Leica." Well, it seems to me that until Leica gets the actual camera and examines it, it is just not possible to hear any words from them about when you can expect it back, can it? It's a bit unreasonable to expect otherwise, until you'll have confirmation that the camera is actually in Leica's hands
That said, I understand you frustration and definitely see your point re: not recommending the S to a working pro, which is exactly the point I was making in my post re: perception and the need for Leica to turn the corner on customer support. I hope your S's problems (as well as everyone else's) will be solved fast and for good, the S is such a great image making tool and system that it's really sad to hear all these bad service reports.
Best,
Vieri
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I believe everything that is said here about the S lenses and Leica service, though I use contax lenses on my S2 and never had an issue.
I use my S 006 since 6 months with my Hasselblad lenses (both my HC and V lenses) and they work perfectly. Great files. I am very happy.
Luckily, due to Forums like these, everybody is now aware of Leica's AF issue, so till it is solved, just carry some Hasselblad lenses in your bag and you never face an issue.
At last year's Photokina, the Leica engineers were very open about the issue and they consider it the highest priority to fix it. So, I am sure they will succeed .... one day.
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I started with the S system in 2015 withe the S006 and a 70mm lens. I then bought a 120mm and 30mm both CS lenses and over the course of 2016 two out of three lenses went back to Germany for replacement AF motors. In June 2016 I decided to buy the Hasselblad H6D-100 but was let down by the Hasselblad rep in the UK as he was meant to have met me in Solihull but canceled due to a new appointment.
I contacted my friends at Ffordes in Scotland to see if they could get me the H6D and while in there store in Inverness they convinced me to trade in my S006 for a new S007 which I did. A week later while on holiday in Switzerland my S120mm sh!t itself......totally pissed off I sent a really bad email to Leica and they managed to turn my 120mm around in 3 weeks.
Last month my S007 s!it itself and I now have a brand new replacement...............Im hoping that is the end of it all, but at the end of the day the files I get from the S007 are IMOO unmatched so the Leica S system will stay with me.
Later
Neil
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I started with the S system in 2015 withe the S006 and a 70mm lens. I then bought a 120mm and 30mm both CS lenses and over the course of 2016 two out of three lenses went back to Germany for replacement AF motors. In June 2016 I decided to buy the Hasselblad H6D-100 but was let down by the Hasselblad rep in the UK as he was meant to have met me in Solihull but canceled due to a new appointment.
I contacted my friends at Ffordes in Scotland to see if they could get me the H6D and while in there store in Inverness they convinced me to trade in my S006 for a new S007 which I did. A week later while on holiday in Switzerland my S120mm sh!t itself......totally pissed off I sent a really bad email to Leica and they managed to turn my 120mm around in 3 weeks.
Last month my S007 s!it itself and I now have a brand new replacement...............Im hoping that is the end of it all, but at the end of the day the files I get from the S007 are IMOO unmatched so the Leica S system will stay with me.
Later
Neil
If camera brands were people:
my girlfriend is beautiful; she makes amazing love with me; most of the time she lives with somebody else, often abroad - sometimes I pay for her trips there, at other times not - but she always comes back after a couple of months or so. There have been times when she just went straight back to where she'd been without even climbing into bed with me once, but hell, that's women... the love she makes makes it all worthwhile, all the pain, all the cost. My psychiatrist and my accountant both tell me I should move on, but you know how it is... I think I'll get myself castrated; then I could take up golf. The freedom would sure improve my swing!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06xZyh8VBFQ
Rob
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............. Im hoping that is the end of it all, ...........
Neil,
Buy a couple of second-hand Hasselblad lenses, so you are safe.
If Leica can't get it fixed (always possible-hopefully not), you have already some lenses for your new life with your H6.
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Hmm...Let me think...golf, sweet fleeting love, golf, sweet fleeting love, golf, sweet fleeting love...
Wouldn't work for me, Keith; never played golf, only pitch 'n' putt - about twice - at the local park when it had a course, back in the 50s. I think it's currently an enclosed dog-walking/pooping area... There has to be a moral deep in there.
However, I still wish I had a post-8 digital Leica M of some type, but not a b/white only version. My last employer had an M3 and it was a beautiful object, but his Nikon F got a helluva lot more use. Yes, as you've indicated before, it's probably not the best type of system for me, and I have to agree that it wasn't during my working years, which was why I didn't have one, but today... make a very nice alternative to the Nikons! Maybe if I'd owned a Leica all along, then those two tentative books might have seen print.
;-)
Rob
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Neil,
Buy a couple of second-hand Hasselblad lenses, so you are safe.
If Leica can't get it fixed (always possible-hopefully not), you have already some lenses for your new life with your H6.
I have two V lenses the 180mm and 250mm that I use on the S and they are too both fantastic lenses
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Rob,
Golf wouldn't work for me either. Never tried it, never wanted to try it, really, seems to me to be the waste of a good walk. Sweet love, hell yes, but certainly not fleeting!
Leica offer the lightest and most compact fast lenses, perfect for those forays into hand held selective focus land. Perhaps sometime in the not too distant future V and I will make it to Mallorca and you'll be able to try for yourself.
That's almost a contract now!
One bit of advice: don't believe the blandishments about great winter hols unless you're a crazed cyclist: it's bloody freezing and the buildings are mostly made of hollow bricks that hold no warmth, however much power one burns! I think it was a reported 3°C last night, and I've had ice on the morning windscreen in past years. It's currently being presented as a freak event similar to what's hitting other, more easterly parts of Europe, but it's actually normal for this time of year, and gets worse before it gets better.
From mid-April can be geat! Life gets back to a busy normal usually in time for Easter, whenever that actually happens to fall. But August sucks: too many people, and lots of heat haze.
Really love to see you both here!
Rob
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I have two V lenses the 180mm and 250mm that I use on the S and they are too both fantastic lenses
Add a HC 50mm II and you have a AF in case you need it. No more broken AF parts.
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You can spend thousands on Hasselblad lenses as backup to your Leica ones, but there is a good chance you will be using your backup Hasselblads more and for months on end. It's easier and makes more sense to just buy a Hasselblad.
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A Hasselblad is great on a tripod. For action / street photography, I prefer the Leica S. I use the same lenses. No AF worries.
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Well for street I admit the less boxy shape is useful for walking around with but I don't have issues hand holding a Hasselblad H and for action even. It does not need to be tripod bound.
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Neither did I, but it scared the sh1t out of folk.
Most I meet think it's a movie camera, but then I am usually not taking people.
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On digiloyd there is an account from a reader that says they had head from several sources that Leica has all but abandoned the S System and it has put the S R&D budget into the SL. It's looking like another R scenario.
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On digiloyd there is an account from a reader that says they had head from several sources that Leica has all but abandoned the S System and it has put the S R&D budget into the SL. It's looking like another R scenario.
I remember looking at an R6 and thinking I could like this, I could afford this; unfortunately, it doesn't show full screen coverage of the neg space.
I worked on some trannies made via such a camera and they were beautiful; however, when one's living was rather dependent on making the best use of the tiny acreage of a 135 format, there wasn't a lot of sense in increasing uncertainties for myself.
However, from an amateur perspective, if you could afford them, and the glass, of course, they were lovely things to have. I would not dream of knocking them in any way, and their optics are still pretty damned good and useful today. Ditto the old rangefinder Leicas, which again, were not ideal for my work. But boy, were they beautiful!
Rob
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On digiloyd there is an account from a reader that says they had head from several sources that Leica has all but abandoned the S System and it has put the S R&D budget into the SL.
Always possible, but unlikely in my view. Not with the show they put on at the latest Photokina.
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I get the S but I've never got the SL.
The scenario seems to be that afte a range has been evolved to perfection it gets killed off,
So the V Hassy was dumped, now the H is having a dagger shoved into its ribcage just as it has had the quirks ironed out and a used market established - let's have no illusion, the next H if it comes will be the last. Same may be true of the Leica S range.
And manufacturers sell us poor sods the same lense range over and over again, because the new mount is "better".
Edmund
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Yeah it sucks, add to that the Contax 645 and Rollei.
I have my doubts the H is done for at this point, but who knows. I hope not!
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Strikes me that if the new thing just reviewed (X1D) has a noticeable delay between press and expose, then it won't appeal to anyone shooting fashion or any other sort of people work. For that, both you and the camera need to be pretty quick in reactions. Maybe what it needs is a range of good shift lenses and aim iself at people using tripods pretty much from necessity.
Rob C
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Strikes me that if the new thing just reviewed (X1D) has a noticeable delay between press and expose, then it won't appeal to anyone shooting fashion or any other sort of people work. For that, both you and the camera need to be pretty quick in reactions. Maybe what it needs is a range of good shift lenses and aim iself at people using tripods pretty much from necessity.
Rob C
Rob, the delay is between shown image and shot image. Just mount a V camera on top of the XD to compose, and you have new age Rolleiflex.
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I don't follow: if WYSInotWYG, and the image you see onscreen and think you are shooting is only that of something that was real a fraction of a second earlier, then you are always going to be too late. N'est-ce pas? OVF... ;-)
Rob
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I don't follow: if WYSInotWYG, and the image you see onscreen and think you are shooting is only that of something that was real a fraction of a second earlier, then you are always going to be too late. N'est-ce pas? OVF... ;-)
Rob
No. Mount an optical viewfinder on the XD, or just look over the lens and you will have less shutter lag than on a dSLR that flips a mirror. The lag issues can be viewfinder lag.
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Hi,
It seems the shutter needs to close before exposure. So shutter closes, shutter opens and exposes the sensor, the shutter closes and readout is done.
Best regards
Erik
No. Mount an optical viewfinder on the XD, or just look over the lens and you will have less shutter lag than on a dSLR that flips a mirror. The lag issues can be viewfinder lag.
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Erik,
Yes. Only the Fuji has EFCS and even that may require a global reset of the sensor before exposure.
But my feeling is that both the shutter close or reset would be faster than mirror up on an MF dSLR, and the latest big hassy can do 4k continuous.
Hi,
It seems the shutter needs to close before exposure. So shutter closes, shutter opens and exposes the sensor, the shutter closes and readout is done.
Best regards
Erik
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Hi Ronald,
I think EFCS does a sweeping reset. The reset acts as first curtain.
Full ES combines sweeping reset with sweeping readot, but readout is a much slower process so ES has long sweep time.
Best regards
Erik
Erik,
Yes. Only the Fuji has EFCS and even that may require a global reset of the sensor before exposure.
But my feeling is that both the shutter close or reset would be faster than mirror up on an MF dSLR, and the latest big hassy can do 4k continuous.
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Don't worry, guys. The Leica M10 is coming out soon and all the problems in the world will go away! ;D
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Don't worry, guys. The Leica M10 is coming out soon and all the problems in the world will go away! ;D
They won't: I still can't afford to splash out on one. I could buy one, but it would cause me pain elsewhere. Priorities...
;-)
Rob
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Don't worry, guys. The Leica M10 is coming out soon and all the problems in the world will go away! ;D
Not that they were ever competitive in price but they are now in the same ball park as the new mirrorless medium format offerings and in the Leica forums that has not gone un-noticed as has the "old" sensor (however tweaked) plus rumours of a new type of M soon with the missing video etc and hybrid viewfinder, I'm happy with my M2s ;)
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I don't think Leica has much competition for the M, it seems to exist in its own niche. Even the Leica S with all it's potential issues and lackluster customer care still sells, and the reason is simple: as bcooter said, it's the look of the files and feel of the camera that is worth it all.
I agree that such long wait times for simple parts replacement are unjustified for such an expensive piece of gear, but Leica is also not the only camera company struggling in this. With the exception of a couple, the whole camera industry keeps living in the past when it comes to certain (or all) aspects of the business.
The cameras will keep selling for now, because they still have unique and appealing features that people are willing to pay and compromise for. Despite this, I do believe that things need to change sooner, because with easy access to quality sensors and so many lens makers ready to produce stellar optics for anyone willing to pay, it only takes a bold entrepreneur with enough money and a vision to kill companies like Nikon overnight.