Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Mirrorless Cameras => Topic started by: FrankStark on October 31, 2016, 05:33:16 pm
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I understand that Kevin (and his wife) are big fans of Olympus cameras and lenses. But in this and other reviews, Kevin completely ignores that Olympus is part of the M4/3rds system that includes Panasonic bodies and lenses, and other manufacturers as well. You would think from listening to Kevin that Panasonic does not exist, or that Olympus developed the m4/3rds system all by itself. Kevin isn't reviewing Olympus cameras as much as simply expressing his personal prejudices about them and his admiration for them.
Olympus makes good cameras and lenses. Personally, and this is my personal preference just as Kevin has his, I think Panasonic makes equally good or better ones. But we don't hear about Panasonic on the Luminous Landscape. In fact, in his video, Kevin says its not necessary to review the Olympus (M4/3rds) system. That is a bit of a put down. He says that Olympus is not to be underestimated, but but that sounds a bit patronizing to me. I would be grateful for a bit more depth of analysis.
Carry on with your OMD cameras, Kevin, and enjoy them. :)
F.
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Maybe Kevin's wife should do a review!
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I've been shooting with the OMD E-M5 II for a couple years. I disagree with Kevin on one point: I routinely print 18" X 24" from the RAW files. At base ISO, I've printed up to 21" X 28." The 75mm f/1.8 lens is about the sharpest lens I've ever shot with. The 40-150mm is extremely sharp and it works beautifully with the 1.4X extender. The 300 f/4 is extraordinarily with or without the 1.4 extender. I've taken razor sharp photos with it at 1/60 second. Despite its wonderful qualities, I ended up selling mine. I don't photograph wildlife and it wasn't a good match for the subjects I like to photograph.
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I've had a mix of Olympus and Panasonic m43 lenses all along, but am a more recent fan of the Panasonic cameras. Well, one particular camera: the GX8. I haven't used my Oly bodies since getting it. In fact I've hardly used any other camera over the last ~14 months. The GX8 isn't as configurable as the Oly E-M series cams but it's configurable enough, and for me in terms of handling & feel it hits the sweet spot. On my current sojourn it's got a few of its Panasonic lens buddies for company along with the Oly 12mm.
-Dave-
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BobDavid, In stressing 16 mp sensors for m4/3rd (the Olympus camera system for him,) Kevin didn't mention that both Olympus and Panasonic now have 20mpx cameras. In fact he has one himself, the Pen F. Apart from the fact that you are not alone printing larger than 17 by 22, it is not clear how large the new sensor will allow prints to be.
Telecaster, good to hear about the GX8. I take delivery of mine this week. But I am not putting down Olympus. I have one of their lenses, the 40-150mm 4-5.6. A terrific lens for the money.
F.
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BobDavid, In stressing 16 mp sensors for m4/3rd (the Olympus camera system for him,) Kevin didn't mention that both Olympus and Panasonic now have 20mpx cameras. In fact he has one himself, the Pen F. Apart from the fact that you are not alone printing larger than 17 by 22, it is not clear how large the new sensor will allow prints to be.
Telecaster, good to hear about the GX8. I take delivery of mine this week. But I am not putting down Olympus. I have one of their lenses, the 40-150mm 4-5.6. A terrific lens for the money.
F.
A lot of how large one can print from a super clean file shot with a super sharp lens and the 16MP sensor depends on the subject matter. There are some pictures I've taken that will blow up larger than the width of my 24" Epson. ... The newer 20mp sensor models have 25% more resolution than 16MP with improved dynamic range. I've heard that the high ISO noise has been reduced by a stop.
The EM5 II high res mode is fantastic for table top setups, copy stand setups, and static scenes. The native files are around 24" X 18" (at 300 or 360 DPI). The hi-res mode is a miracle of modern science if it is implemented intended correctly. Back when I had a fine art repro studio, I used a Hasselblad multi-shot camera. Getting excellent results from a multi-shot camera requires fastidious technique.
The Oly premium and Pro lenses (including the zooms) work well.
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When I mention 17x22 I say that because that is what I have found to be an ideal large size from a 16mpm sensor. I'd the same about Fuji in the past. I use a RIP as many of you know and that does allow me to pull more out of a file and print bigger. However, seeing how I have used many large MP cameras I get tp be a bit picky about print quality. Yes, I have worked with last week the new MMD E-M1 II camera and new lenses. I'll have a first-hand report on these in the next 48 hours. The Olympus system is just a darn good system and the lenses are excellent and it deserves attention as aa capable camera in a lightweight package.
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I find a lot of people seem to skimp on the "technique" when going to smaller cameras. I have found if I expect the same results (as in, ideal, sharp, well toned, and aesthetically beautiful and technically competent) I do from my large, high MP sensors, I need to use the same discipline. When I do, the prints below 30" are just as great as any other camera i've used or own. 80% of my prints are 18" or smaller. I'm happy as a clam not hauling the size and weight any more of larger systems.
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Kevin, it seems like you still have your blinkers on. In my opinion, to speak of the "Olympus system" by itself without acknowledging that is part of, and integrated with, the larger m43rds system seems like tunnel vision. The relative merits and demerits of Olympus cameras and lenses within the m4/3rds system is another question.
F.
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I hope that doesn't sound too harsh.
F.
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I've had a mix of Olympus and Panasonic m43 lenses all along, but am a more recent fan of the Panasonic cameras. Well, one particular camera: the GX8. I haven't used my Oly bodies since getting it.
I prefer Olympus, particularly the lenses. It's difficult to describe, but I find the look of the P/PL lenses to be too... clinical.
I did like the ergonomics of the GX8, though.
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I find a lot of people seem to skimp on the "technique" when going to smaller cameras. I have found if I expect the same results (as in, ideal, sharp, well toned, and aesthetically beautiful and technically competent) I do from my large, high MP sensors, I need to use the same discipline. When I do, the prints below 30" are just as great as any other camera i've used or own. 80% of my prints are 18" or smaller. I'm happy as a clam not hauling the size and weight any more of larger systems.
No kidding. I just finished a week of day hikes in the Sierras with an M43 setup. A 35mm DSLR would've doubled the weight of my camera kit. Pass....
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I hope that doesn't sound too harsh.
Frank, I wouldn't equate having a preference to wearing blinkers. Also, a person can simply lack the hands-on experience necessary to say anything evaluative about a particular camera maker or model.
I enjoy sampling various tequila brands and types, but there are some I haven't yet got to and may never get to. So when someone asks me to evaluate tequlias or recommend some (the new Casamigos añejo is sublime!) I just tell 'em what I like, leaving out any "you could also try this out, though I personally haven't" stuff.
-Dave-
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Also, a person can simply lack the hands-on experience necessary to say anything evaluative about a particular camera maker or model.
I enjoy sampling various tequila brands and types, but there are some I haven't yet got to and may never get to. ...
Still, it's worthwhile to note of these M4/3 systems the existence in full --i.e., of both makers--, for it does add considerable value to have the selection. Does Olympus have as good a tiny body as the Panasonic GM5 (per one's desires)? Is the Oly 40-150/2.8 just over large for one's needs vs. the (internal zooming) Pany 35-100/2.8? And so on. There are many (good & otherwise) choices in the bodies & lenses, and while it's likely too much for anyone to know well, knowing the availability is a plus to this dual-maker "system" --yes?!
:)
ps: Btw, Dave, I'm liking much my GX7 but noticing your praise the GX8, thanks. (Others have opined that the GX80/85 is a closer bump-up match.)
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Dave, preference is one thing, acknowledgement that Olympus is in a camera and lens system not completely of its own making is another. It is fine to prefer one brand or another, but perhaps a misnomer to talk about the Olympus "system" as if the other companies in the m4/3rds camera and lens system, including Panasonic, do not exist. I have no doubt that Kevin is aware that m4/3rds exists, but he seems reluctant to mention it for reasons of his own. I cannot force him to do that, but think it would be better if he did. This seeming reluctance over a few posts about Olympus finally led me to comment. Now perhaps we can get on to other things like photography, and enjoy whichever camera we prefer to do it with.
F.
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Frank, I am perfectly aware of other system and relationships to the 4/3rd system. My article was about a system that is compact and well built and in a sense of things it is a system. I am fully aware of Panasonic and we use Panny's for our video work. Maybe we'll do a story on that. This was about the Olympus system that I own and how I use it and how it is small and powerful. No different from my articles on Sony, Fuji, Phase One and Hasselblad.
So, let's get out there and use the cameras, and take some photos. I'm off to Antarctica where I'll give the Olympus, Fuji, Phase One and Hasselblad X1D a workout.
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All the best on your trip.
F.
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....interesting read!
After looking at the internet for the past 15 years I disbelieve what I read as my basic benchmark position. Anything that I can actually verify myself then becomes a bonus, hopefully.
i'm not sure of the current 'disclaimer' status on this site and have to assume that Kevin is as honest and pure as the driven snow and really does think the olympus is great and that he bought his oly with his own money. However, there are plenty of photo people online who seem to be pushing particular cameras with a persistent determination that one can only be wary of......
In any case, we should remember that 'one mans meat is another mans poison'........and cameras are a very personal choice.
Because of enthusiastic coverage on this site particularly, I took a look at olympus OMD at the end of last year. it's quite well made stuff but far too complicated for reliable use when there's a good image on the hook! This seems to be a failing of m4/3 in general....massive over engineering (to give it a kind description) is counter productive to any serious image maker and is found in most of the m4/3 offerings. I grew up with Rollieflexes so four types of RAW is a bridge too far for me!...as is the 'rogue button' and flawed logic issues that abound in these "systems".
In photography as in many other matters; 'less is frequently (read, 'usually') more.
....While we are on the subject, a full disclaimer heading on the front page would not be a bad thing perhaps.....
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it's quite well made stuff but far too complicated for reliable use when there's a good image on the hook! This seems to be a failing of m4/3 in general....massive over engineering (to give it a kind description) is counter productive to any serious image maker and is found in most of the m4/3 offerings. I grew up with Rollieflexes so four types of RAW is a bridge too far for me!...as is the 'rogue button' and flawed logic issues that abound in these "systems".
I don't fully understand this logic. To me a camera cannot be too complicated or over engineered because there is no obligation to use it all. I don't have and M4/3 camera but on the digitals I use maybe 10% or less of the options available. Just choose one file format and put the camera on Manual and it won't be much different from ancient film cameras with the only exception that changing film is easier (just turn the iso dial ;)). I come from manual M39 Leica viewfinders and don't find that much difference with now using my modern mirrorless cameras other then the in-built exposure meter and different way of manual focus (magnified view vs. rangefinder split image). I'm probably missing something so I wouldn't mind if you explained which options get in the way of serious image making. I'm not doubting you, just trying to learn what I'm overlooking.
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I don't fully understand this logic. To me a camera cannot be too complicated or over engineered because there is no obligation to use it all.
The potential issue is with the interface and buttons.
Olympus cameras are highly customizable, and has a simplified top-level menu interface (Super Control Panel). However, the menus can be frustrating for new users; and advanced features often require a bit of perplexing menu diving.
Olympus also didn't have dedicated Custom slots on the mode dials until recently (though you could assign a custom set to an existing dial slot). That helps simplify things.
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Pieter,.....Like you, i don't own any m4/3 camera "system", and after taking a good look I doubt I will as the annoyance level is not for me, and i suspect, not for you either. Also, on m4/3 models it's not possible to "not use" areas of feature reliably...the cameras typically have their own irritating intrusions that are not easy to eliminate permanently. Try for yourself;....go to a camera dealers and spend some time with OMD and try to set it up from scratch!....firstly you need to memorize the hundred plus page users manual, then decipher what is good for you and then finally, you have to keep those settings during use. if you succeed then good for you, but will you be able to just pick the camera up next week and still be able to use it efficiently?....Doubtful! Essentially these are amateur cameras that need coinstant use to retain familiarity and that is not usually possible for amateurs!
...When a good image turns up these are NOT the cameras to be holding...at least not for me!
The Sony camera have been criticised for their menu layout but they tend to look good compared to m4/3 and they do at least stay adjusted!
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I use a RIP as many of you know and that does allow me to pull more out of a file and print bigger. However, seeing how I have used many large MP cameras I get tp be a bit picky about print quality.
I would be interested in how much more you can pull out of a file with an RIP such as ImagePrint, which is not a particularly cost effective solution, since it costs nearly as much as the printers with which it is used. For example, US $895 for the Epson P800 which sells for $1195 at B&H (now $895 with a $300 rebate). It is my belief that the printer manufacturer should be able to provide a satisfactory driver for their hardware. Personally, I would never shell out for such an unreasonably priced product. Alternatives such as Qimage are more reasonably priced.
Regards,
Bill
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Frank - I wish the m4/3rds ecosystem played as well across systems as was the initial hope when the standard was announced. But as usual it is the manufacturers angling for advantage that makes it worse for the consumer. One of the first lens purchases I made for my Olympus OM-D EM-5 was the Panasonic 20mm 1.7. Unfortunately many users reported purple fringing when shooting wide open – but only on Olympus cameras (to be fair I did not experience this issue). More troubling is how image stabilization is so proprietary and incompatible on the m4/3rd system (I wish Panasonic had just licensed it from Olympus). If it was not for incompatible stabilization I would have bought a Panasonic 100-400 lens, but to be unable to use Panasonic lens stabilization on a Olympus system, especially when Olympus has shown how effective IBIS AND lens stabilization can be, just turns me away from that option (see Robin Wong’s OM-D EM1 II review that includes 5 second hand held shots with the new Olympus 12-100 lens).
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..will you be able to just pick the camera up next week and still be able to use it efficiently?.
Yes. All of the OM-D models have custom presets which let you save your settings for a variety of shooting situations. In the latest iterations, these are not lost when shutting down or even when installing new firmware updates. I have presets for basic landscape shooting with a tripod, for studio flash, and for hi-res mode, plus a fourth for my wife (as bulletproof as I could make it).
There is also the Super Control Panel display, which puts the most used menu items a click away. There is an extensive menu system, but it is not often necessary to dip into that once you set the camera up for your preferences.
As for this being an "amateur" camera system, well, i just got done beating a couple of dozen photographers in a landscape competition. My "amateur" m43 cameras took home an individual first place, plus "Artists Choice" as best in show for my full exhibit of 10 landscapes. Total prize money was $4,500. I took $3,000 of that against a passel of full frame cameras. That's in addition to my usual gigs doing corporate headshots and product photos. Same "amateur" cameras.
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Pieter,.....Like you, i don't own any m4/3 camera "system", and after taking a good look I doubt I will as the annoyance level is not for me, and i suspect, not for you either. Also, on m4/3 models it's not possible to "not use" areas of feature reliably...the cameras typically have their own irritating intrusions that are not easy to eliminate permanently. Try for yourself;....go to a camera dealers and spend some time with OMD and try to set it up from scratch!....firstly you need to memorize the hundred plus page users manual, then decipher what is good for you and then finally, you have to keep those settings during use. if you succeed then good for you, but will you be able to just pick the camera up next week and still be able to use it efficiently?....Doubtful! Essentially these are amateur cameras that need coinstant use to retain familiarity and that is not usually possible for amateurs!
...When a good image turns up these are NOT the cameras to be holding...at least not for me!
The Sony camera have been criticised for their menu layout but they tend to look good compared to m4/3 and they do at least stay adjusted!
Really? I have three MFT cameras and in use they're no different to my DSLR's apart from the EVF and in view goodies and the fact that anyone can be phased by them phases me :D
The first thing I do with any digital camera is go through the menu and set it up and this includes turning anything I don't want or don't understand off and once this is done that's it and I usually only go back into the menu to format the card or set the clock.
And when I pick the camera up next week it's never managed to perform a reset and is always just as I left it.
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I want to see a review of the new 25mm 1.2 lens. On the other hand, if I were to pay $1200 for such a fast lens, I would want it on a full frame camera. Still I'm curious to see how it performs.
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Try for yourself;....go to a camera dealers and spend some time with OMD and try to set it up from scratch!....firstly you need to memorize the hundred plus page users manual, then decipher what is good for you and then finally, you have to keep those settings during use.
Nonsense!
I am one of those people who doesn't read the manual. Consequently I am missing lots of cool little benefits I could get if I did read the manual and set up presets for different scenarios. Somehow I have struggled through without that. Basically all I did was go through the menu system one time to set date, RAW mode, etc. Yeah, the menu is huge, but reading the manual is not required to understand it. I DID read the manual to learn how to implement auto focus bracketing when that was implemented. But other than that I just turned the wheel to M, assumed that meant manual mode, and then played with the thumb wheels and found that yes, indeed, I was in manual mode because one wheel changed shutter speed and the other changed Fstop. Two years later "read OMD manual" is still on my ToDo list and it keeps getting bumped down by higher priorities.
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Seems like the GX8 is the bargain in the M4/3s world right now.
In the UK you can almost get three Gx8's for the price of one EM1-MKII.
That's going to be a tough sell for Olympus....
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Pieter,.....Like you, i don't own any m4/3 camera "system", and after taking a good look I doubt I will as the annoyance level is not for me, and i suspect, not for you either. Also, on m4/3 models it's not possible to "not use" areas of feature reliably...the cameras typically have their own irritating intrusions that are not easy to eliminate permanently. Try for yourself;....go to a camera dealers and spend some time with OMD and try to set it up from scratch!....firstly you need to memorize the hundred plus page users manual, then decipher what is good for you and then finally, you have to keep those settings during use. if you succeed then good for you, but will you be able to just pick the camera up next week and still be able to use it efficiently?....Doubtful! Essentially these are amateur cameras that need coinstant use to retain familiarity and that is not usually possible for amateurs!
...When a good image turns up these are NOT the cameras to be holding...at least not for me!
The Sony camera have been criticised for their menu layout but they tend to look good compared to m4/3 and they do at least stay adjusted!
I personally don't see much difference in any m4/3 or Sony or Canon or Nikon when it comes to setting them up. It's all a matter of quickly learning what buttons to push to get it going. All one needs to know if how to set it to Raw, setting the ISO, manual shutter and manual f-stop. I haven't found that to be difficult in any of these bodies. I agree that most cameras are way too complicated and filled with tons of tricks that most of us don't need or want. But once you use a camera for a few days, you learn to ignore those features and just shoot it like any other camera. In fact, take the rear LCD and tilt it up 90 degrees, hold it at waist level and it may feel just like your Rollei!
I have a few M4/3 bodies that I use for some personal work and they are truly amazing systems that are tiny to carry in comparison to DSLR's.
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One of the first lens purchases I made for my Olympus OM-D EM-5 was the Panasonic 20mm 1.7. Unfortunately many users reported purple fringing when shooting wide open...
Very few lenses have that issue -- perhaps only two you'd still want to use (20mm and Panasonic 7-14). It's because in the early days, Panasonic and Olympus handled UV filtration differently.
More troubling is how image stabilization is so proprietary and incompatible on the m4/3rd system....
That isn't a big issue either.
Olympus uses IBIS, so it can do full stabilization on any M43 lens. For years, Panasonic relied on ILIS, so it couldn't stabilize Olympus lenses. However, they are now using IBIS, so that is slowly getting resolved.
A handful of the ultra-telephoto lenses use proprietary lens stabilizers. Even without it, you still get very good stabilization on mixed platforms.
If it was not for incompatible stabilization I would have bought a Panasonic 100-400 lens, but to be unable to use Panasonic lens stabilization on a Olympus system....
You might want to rent the 100-400 and test the results, before writing it off altogether.
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I want to see a review of the new 25mm 1.2 lens. On the other hand, if I were to pay $1200 for such a fast lens, I would want it on a full frame camera. Still I'm curious to see how it performs.
Steve Huff...
http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2016/11/01/the-olympus-25-f1-2-pro-arrives-1st-shots-out-of-the-box/
I'd imagine that the Oly is better wide open than a few 50mm f1.2's.
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Seems like the GX8 is the bargain in the M4/3s world right now.
In the UK you can almost get three Gx8's for the price of one EM1-MKII.
That's going to be a tough sell for Olympus....
I've thought about getting a GX8 myself but I can't quite get passed shutter shock. I currently have a G1, a GX7 and a G7 and the latter two are known to be affected and this worries me as it means being careful with lens choices.
I currently only have one lens which regularly displays shutter shock but it's annoyed me enough to want to avoid buying any shutter shock prone bodies in the future. GX9 with EFCS and the new shutter mechanism maybe but the current one, no thanks.
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Then again, having the speed of a 1.2 lens with the depth of field of 2.4 is an advantage to some people. Besides, ide much rather try to focus a lens that is f/1.4 or faster on a good evf system than on an slr or ovf. Again, subjective.
I want to see a review of the new 25mm 1.2 lens. On the other hand, if I were to pay $1200 for such a fast lens, I would want it on a full frame camera. Still I'm curious to see how it performs.
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Pieter,.....Like you, i don't own any m4/3 camera "system", and after taking a good look I doubt I will as the annoyance level is not for me, and i suspect, not for you either. Also, on m4/3 models it's not possible to "not use" areas of feature reliably...the cameras typically have their own irritating intrusions that are not easy to eliminate permanently. Try for yourself;....go to a camera dealers and spend some time with OMD and try to set it up from scratch!....firstly you need to memorize the hundred plus page users manual, then decipher what is good for you and then finally, you have to keep those settings during use. if you succeed then good for you, but will you be able to just pick the camera up next week and still be able to use it efficiently?....Doubtful! Essentially these are amateur cameras that need coinstant use to retain familiarity and that is not usually possible for amateurs!
...When a good image turns up these are NOT the cameras to be holding...at least not for me!
The Sony camera have been criticised for their menu layout but they tend to look good compared to m4/3 and they do at least stay adjusted!
Yada - Yada - Yada. There's a reason that the expression RTFM exists; at this point in history it's never a bad idea. When I first tested the OMD EM-1 I rented it from LensRentals.com for 7 days. I used the camera virtually in manual mode for the entire week with side trips into the other modes to compare with. As a long time Canon and Nikon DSLR user and a former Olympus film body user, I recognized the camera was a quality camera and was very smitten with it.
My first m4/3s camera was a Panasonic GX1. I liked the camera but the IQ wasn't always up to snuff when especially compared side by side with the OMD EM-1 and further comparisons with the Canon SLT 100.
So before you go about anecdotally trashing a camera that you may have spent a half hour using in a camera store rent it and give it a true test.
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I've thought about getting a GX8 myself but I can't quite get passed shutter shock.
Electronic shutter. Unless you're taking pics of fast-moving subjects—potential motion artifacts—it does the job. I always use it except when taking >1 second exposures on a tripod (no shutter shock seen to date).
-Dave-
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Pieter,.....Like you, i don't own any m4/3 camera "system", and after taking a good look I doubt I will as the annoyance level is not for me, and i suspect, not for you either. Also, on m4/3 models it's not possible to "not use" areas of feature reliably...the cameras typically have their own irritating intrusions that are not easy to eliminate permanently. Try for yourself;....go to a camera dealers and spend some time with OMD and try to set it up from scratch!....firstly you need to memorize the hundred plus page users manual, then decipher what is good for you and then finally, you have to keep those settings during use. if you succeed then good for you, but will you be able to just pick the camera up next week and still be able to use it efficiently?....Doubtful! Essentially these are amateur cameras that need coinstant use to retain familiarity and that is not usually possible for amateurs!
...When a good image turns up these are NOT the cameras to be holding...at least not for me!
The Sony camera have been criticised for their menu layout but they tend to look good compared to m4/3 and they do at least stay adjusted!
Thanks for responding and indeed every camera and menu system has some quirks but in my mind they can all be worked out pretty quickly. However you were complaining about "over engineered options" and not about "difficult user interface" which I think are very different things. But both can be easily solved if you're longing for the Rolleiflex experience you seem to be craving for. Don't use the menu and don't use the options. Stay at base ISO, Shoot Manual mode and MF and none of the "problems" you're experiencing will be there.
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pegelli,.......thanks for the helpful pointers to where I'm going wrong but, with respect, you need to go and look at these cameras yourself and then you will see what i mean...it's NOT possible to reliably 'set to snap' as you are implying. My wife has a m4/3 panasonic (G5) and that is beset with the same 'design ethos'....it's simply NOT possible to use the thing reliably from one week to the next because it's crammed full of irritating and largely pointless features and, yes, over engineered to the point of being unreliable in use. it's not feasible to use it without upsetting any settings inadvertantly.......focus cursor(s) has an apparent mind of it's own and there are 4 levels of RAW, iso speed changes apparently at will(but impossible to find when needed) and the whole thing is impossible to memorise.......the body is small and badly designed so that it is impossible to use it without pressing the several rogue buttons.
all the psudeo m4/3 'pretend dslrs' are like this so go and take a look and see if I'm not right!....they are not for people like you, or me!
For example of what I mean;.....i have been recently using a friends fuji xe-1. It was possible to set the thing up with stable focus point and 'A' setting and easy grasp of iso in a few minutes. this camera has not changed it's tune in several weeks and is completely reliable in use. a world away from most m4/3 dslr types.
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Pieter,.....Like you, i don't own any m4/3 camera "system", and after taking a good look I doubt I will as the annoyance level is not for me, and i suspect, not for you either. Also, on m4/3 models it's not possible to "not use" areas of feature reliably...the cameras typically have their own irritating intrusions that are not easy to eliminate permanently. Try for yourself;....go to a camera dealers and spend some time with OMD and try to set it up from scratch!....firstly you need to memorize the hundred plus page users manual, then decipher what is good for you and then finally, you have to keep those settings during use. if you succeed then good for you, but will you be able to just pick the camera up next week and still be able to use it efficiently?....Doubtful! Essentially these are amateur cameras that need coinstant use to retain familiarity and that is not usually possible for amateurs!
...When a good image turns up these are NOT the cameras to be holding...at least not for me!
The Sony camera have been criticised for their menu layout but they tend to look good compared to m4/3 and they do at least stay adjusted!
It looks as if you set out NOT to like the camera system? Nothing is perfect and one thing is certain you don't have to memorize anything. You set a function the way you want it and forget it. Calling a camera amateur is disparaging. Are you a professional?
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Electronic shutter. Unless you're taking pics of fast-moving subjects—potential motion artifacts—it does the job. I always use it except when taking >1 second exposures on a tripod (no shutter shock seen to date).
-Dave-
I'm not worried about rolling shutter but I do quite a bit of shooting indoors under artificial lighting and banding can be a problem.
At the moment my solution is to use the electronic shutter when shooting outdoors and to use a trusted lens when shooting in situations when banding could occur. Having to worry about body and lens combination to avoid this isn't ideal.
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pegelli,.......thanks for the helpful pointers to where I'm going wrong but, with respect, you need to go and look at these cameras yourself and then you will see what i mean...it's NOT possible to reliably 'set to snap' as you are implying. My wife has a m4/3 panasonic (G5) and that is beset with the same 'design ethos'....it's simply NOT possible to use the thing reliably from one week to the next because it's crammed full of irritating and largely pointless features and, yes, over engineered to the point of being unreliable in use. it's not feasible to use it without upsetting any settings inadvertantly.......focus cursor(s) has an apparent mind of it's own and there are 4 levels of RAW, iso speed changes apparently at will(but impossible to find when needed) and the whole thing is impossible to memorise.......the body is small and badly designed so that it is impossible to use it without pressing the several rogue buttons.
I really need to try one, I have some friends who use a Oly PEN-F and maybe I can borrow one for a few hours to see how it works. It's hard to imagine you can't set it up "simple" and just leave it that way but the proof will be in the actual doing.
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I really need to try one, I have some friends who use a Oly PEN-F and maybe I can borrow one for a few hours to see how it works. It's hard to imagine you can't set it up "simple" and just leave it that way but the proof will be in the actual doing.
I shoot my cameras very much like film cameras with the advantages of being able to change the ISO from shot to shot, being able to place the focus point anywhere and having in view aids. I shoot in aperture priority mostly, manual mode occasionally and shutter priority very occasionally and I can't think of a single time I've picked one of my cameras up and not been able to use it. You can even save your settings in a custom mode.
Over complexity and losing simple settings and having to constantly wade through baffling menus simply are not IMO real world issue. The one thing baffling about this is that someone sees a problem here.
As one famous blogger said recently, you can't get much simpler than a GX7 (a MFT RF style camera) and a 17mm f1.8.
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What is amazing is that people really blow the menu out of proportion. I think people just see sooo many options and they go running. Does anyone actually read them? What a shame to lose out on potentially using such a great tool just because of a bunch of optional content.
The first two menus are straight forward. As is the playback menu. The custom menu barely needs anything digging. It's all advanced setup and preference. Same kind of stuff that the canon custom menus would have for instance. You don't need to use any of it.
There are already hard buttons for ISO and white balance, stop down, focus, ael, and bracketing...just like every other camera. That's no different.
Yes you can m are these buttons whatever you ent or turn them off.... but you don't have to. How hard is it to then just put the camera in p, a , s , or m and shoot like any other camera?
Super control menu comes from pressing the center OK button and that lets you change everything else you could possibly need for most scenarios.
Maybe it's just me, but I personally love the deep options. If anyone is really having trouble wrapping their heads around the menu system, I have a video on you tube, and my blog going option by option through the entire system, and telling you how to set it up in a great way. It's broken up by custom menu. I hate to put a plug for my own stuff, but if you need it, that's why it's there. Check it out from my link below. Or search unlockingolympus on YouTube. I guarantee you it's easier than the manual.
And once you set the camera up, even if you don't menu dive...how often will you go back in? I never do. I've set up friends' cameras that are totally not tech people that don't care or want to deal with any camera's menu and they are making the best images of their lives. They've never had to readjust anything.
It's only daunting if one makes it daunting.
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There are a lot of menu options on an Olympus camera, that much is true. However, there are also plenty of cheat sheets and YouTube video walkthroughs explaining what the options are and suggesting how to set them. I've found this largely a one-off process. Set to taste and assign favourite setting groups - bracketing, for example - to a function button or dial. After that, it's usually been a question of setting just a few things like ISO, WB, focus points and so on in the usual way of almost any camera. Deeper tweaks such as altering the fps or RAW settings can all be done off one screen using the Oly Super Control panel. Just one button press to bring it up. It even works through the EVF as well as on the back screen. Anyway, I haven't felt baffled by complexity. And the truth is that most modern cameras are complex, essentially being small computers with a sensor and lens attached. You can fiddle or not fiddle to your heart's content.
Most modern cameras are compromises in the sense that the manufacturer has to include features of appeal to a very wide range of different users. Hence all the setting options. If they weren't included, the camera's appeal and hence sales would be quickly reduced.
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What is amazing is that people really blow the menu out of proportion. I think people just see sooo many options and they go running. Does anyone actually read them? What a shame to lose out on potentially using such a great tool just because of a bunch of optional content.
The first two menus are straight forward. As is the playback menu. The custom menu barely needs anything digging. It's all advanced setup and preference. Same kind of stuff that the canon custom menus would have for instance. You don't need to use any of it.
There are already hard buttons for ISO and white balance, stop down, focus, ael, and bracketing...just like every other camera. That's no different.
Yes you can m are these buttons whatever you ent or turn them off.... but you don't have to. How hard is it to then just put the camera in p, a , s , or m and shoot like any other camera?
Super control menu comes from pressing the center OK button and that lets you change everything else you could possibly need for most scenarios.
Maybe it's just me, but I personally love the deep options. If anyone is really having trouble wrapping their heads around the menu system, I have a video on you tube, and my blog going option by option through the entire system, and telling you how to set it up in a great way. It's broken up by custom menu. I hate to put a plug for my own stuff, but if you need it, that's why it's there. Check it out from my link below. Or search unlockingolympus on YouTube. I guarantee you it's easier than the manual.
And once you set the camera up, even if you don't menu dive...how often will you go back in? I never do. I've set up friends' cameras that are totally not tech people that don't care or want to deal with any camera's menu and they are making the best images of their lives. They've never had to readjust anything.
It's only daunting if one makes it daunting.
Tony's online stuff for the OMD is really excellent, I've availed myself of them several times!
And yes I agree, that out of the box the camera is very usable - no deep menu diving required but it's great to have these options.
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I shoot my cameras very much like film cameras with the advantages of being able to change the ISO from shot to shot, being able to place the focus point anywhere and having in view aids. I shoot in aperture priority mostly, manual mode occasionally and shutter priority very occasionally and I can't think of a single time I've picked one of my cameras up and not been able to use it. You can even save your settings in a custom mode.
Over complexity and losing simple settings and having to constantly wade through baffling menus simply are not IMO real world issue. The one thing baffling about this is that someone sees a problem here.
As one famous blogger said recently, you can't get much simpler than a GX7 (a MFT RF style camera) and a 17mm f1.8.
I have my doubts as well, but it's hard to be definitive about if you've never actually handled the camera.
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I know there area a lot of purists out there, and I myself even really like the 4 button layout of the Leica s and phase sensors. For those that wish for simplicity, it is easy to turn off all the function and custom buttons, turn off control panels and even menus, turn off the screen, and set the camera to manual.
If your screen articulates, reverse it. Now you look like a film camera, but playback happens. In the viewfinder as needed. No buttons or keypad will activate anything except for your ISO and white balance button. You can be in auto focus or manual focus, and even see a black and white display. In manual mode now it's all you. Also, no accidental settings changes or button presses...everything is deactivated. Don't know too many cameras that can turn their buttons off.
I am really curious to see if the new e-m1 allows external loading of file settings. They stated it can through the software. I am really hoping this means we can access those settings files and even share them to other users. How nice will it be to be able to transfer ready made setups? Maybe this menu thing will be a thing of the past.
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IMO Oly's menus are tedious to work with but not difficult. The cameras are extremely configurable, and the price you pay for that is in the time spent doing the configuring. Once configured, though, you can mostly stick to the Super Control Panel, which is easy to use.
-Dave-
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..it's NOT possible to reliably 'set to snap' as you are implying...it's simply NOT possible to use the thing reliably from one week to the next because it's crammed full of irritating and largely pointless features and, yes, over engineered to the point of being unreliable in use. it's not feasible to use it without upsetting any settings inadvertantly.......focus cursor(s) has an apparent mind of it's own and there are 4 levels of RAW, iso speed changes apparently at will(but impossible to find when needed) and the whole thing is impossible to memorise.......the body is small and badly designed so that it is impossible to use it without pressing the several rogue buttons.
all the psudeo m4/3 'pretend dslrs' are like this
I'm not responding to this because I like to argue, I don't. I'm just responding to encourage you to open your mind and examine the camera that this thread is about. If you aren't pleasantly surprised then stick with a DSLR. Unless you are excluding the E-M1 from this generalization, I find it to be patently untrue. I can't speak for the other m43 cameras because I have no experience with them.
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pegelli,.......thanks for the helpful pointers to where I'm going wrong but, with respect, you need to go and look at these cameras yourself and then you will see what i mean...it's NOT possible to reliably 'set to snap' as you are implying. My wife has a m4/3 panasonic (G5) and that is beset with the same 'design ethos'....it's simply NOT possible to use the thing reliably from one week to the next because it's crammed full of irritating and largely pointless features and, yes, over engineered to the point of being unreliable in use. it's not feasible to use it without upsetting any settings inadvertantly.......focus cursor(s) has an apparent mind of it's own and there are 4 levels of RAW, iso speed changes apparently at will(but impossible to find when needed) and the whole thing is impossible to memorise.......the body is small and badly designed so that it is impossible to use it without pressing the several rogue buttons.
all the psudeo m4/3 'pretend dslrs' are like this so go and take a look and see if I'm not right!....they are not for people like you, or me!
For example of what I mean;.....i have been recently using a friends fuji xe-1. It was possible to set the thing up with stable focus point and 'A' setting and easy grasp of iso in a few minutes. this camera has not changed it's tune in several weeks and is completely reliable in use. a world away from most m4/3 dslr types.
Seriously ... I found the Olympus menus confusing at first, as I did the Panasonic. But then, I also found the Nikon DLSR menus confusing when I started using them. After using the EM5 for a while, I put down my Nikon DX never to return. I now roll with an EM1 and GX7, find them very reliable, and rarely use the menus. Probably less than I used my D7000 menus, because both the EM1 and GX7 are sufficiently customizable with hard buttons and dials so I am set. And four custom setups (MySets in Oly-talk) tied to mode dial positions rapidly change the camera from tripod/landscape, to chase the grandkids, to street/urban monochrome. Without ever menu diving.
And they don't appear to be inhabited by ghosts changing the settings Willy-Nilly.
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Good preview, Kevin. I've owned the EM-1 since it came out and have traveled extensively with it. I left my Canon 5D III and it's monster lenses at home. I look forward to trying the new body out. I appreciate your thoughtful remarks. I am curious how the 12-100 f/4 lens will work.
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I dunno. I shoot exclusively with Panasonic (and lenses from both Panny and Oly), I only do stills and can print processed RW2s with no problems at 30x40.
People seem to overlook that Pannys shoot stills quite beautifully.