Luminous Landscape Forum
Site & Board Matters => About This Site => Topic started by: robertfields on August 07, 2016, 12:28:02 pm
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Regarding the article/essay "Fail Forward and Fail Hard" I disagree with 90% of what he has to say, and his images are...well...odd, IMHO; the links to his website don't work. This is the kind of new age touchy-feely drivel a lot of kids get in school today. Don't worry if you fail the test kids. We'll give you an "A" to make you feel good. In my 50-year career (not photography) I learned what was right and what was wrong from those who were smart and those who were stupid, respectfully. I always tried very hard to not make mistakes.
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Regarding the article/essay "Fail Forward and Fail Hard" I disagree with 90% of what he has to say, and his images are...well...odd, IMHO; the links to his website don't work. This is the kind of new age touchy-feely drivel a lot of kids get in school today. Don't worry if you fail the test kids. We'll give you an "A" to make you feel good. In my 50-year career (not photography) I learned what was right and what was wrong from those who were smart and those who were stupid, respectfully. I always tried very hard to not make mistakes.
The article is another 'enlightened' essay, as you well pointed out reflecting the moral relativism corroding society.
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Grumpy Gus alert! ::)
-Dave-
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I think he just said "try stuff."
Can't really argue.
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I think he just said "try stuff."
Can't really argue.
Exactly! Art school 101...take lots of chances. It's the only way for true creativity.
Peter
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Regarding the article/essay "Fail Forward and Fail Hard" I disagree with 90% of what he has to say, and his images are...well...odd, IMHO; the links to his website don't work. This is the kind of new age touchy-feely drivel a lot of kids get in school today. Don't worry if you fail the test kids. We'll give you an "A" to make you feel good. In my 50-year career (not photography) I learned what was right and what was wrong from those who were smart and those who were stupid, respectfully. I always tried very hard to not make mistakes.
No right or wrong in the creative aspects of the visual arts, Robert.
Would be interested to see some of your photos.
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The article is another 'enlightened' essay, as you well pointed out reflecting the moral relativism corroding society.
Er, what had this article to do with morality?
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Sorry about the link for the web page. I have made the corrections on it.
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Er, what had this article to do with morality?
"Moral Relativism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_relativism)" has nothing to do with morality. It has to do with political correctness and utopian results equality.
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"Moral Relativism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_relativism)" has nothing to do with morality. It has to do with political correctness and utopian results equality.
The article had nothing to do with any of that stuff - it was about personal artistic development ( from my reading anyway ).
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Looks like the article itself is a failure. Then again, in the author's world, it means success, no? ;)
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I think many of you are being a bit harsh. Seems to me most of what the writer says is common sense.
While I agree that with art (photography) making mistakes is fine and they are the way you often learn and get to try new ideas. What I don't necessarily agree with his the author carrying that on into everyday life and the assertion that we could ban the words 'failure' and 'mistake'. There are lots of areas of life where failure or mistake are catastrophic, and to be trained to avoid failure or mistakes is absolutely correct.
Jim
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I think many of you are being a bit harsh. Seems to me most of what the writer says is common sense.
While I agree that with art (photography) making mistakes is fine and they are the way you often learn and get to try new ideas. What I don't necessarily agree with his the author carrying that on into everyday life and the assertion that we could ban the words 'failure' and 'mistake'. There are lots of areas of life where failure or mistake are catastrophic, and to be trained to avoid failure or mistakes is absolutely correct.
Jim
True. But in this case the author is talking about the art of photography.
Peter
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I think many of you are being a bit harsh.
Seems to be a trend - articles provoking mean-spirited belly-aching instead of interesting discussion.
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When there seems to be nihil novi sub sole digitali, people are not easily impressed by rehashed generalities.
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Wow, it's been a long, long time for me since I was forced to study Latin in HS!! Brought back some very old memories including the teacher that could speak many languages except English!!
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Seems to be a trend - articles provoking mean-spirited belly-aching instead of interesting discussion.
Yeah, use a controversial title and premise (since when was a failure "good"?), and this is what you get. News flash: controversy sells, but may leave you [virtually] bruised.
The author should have explained that failure should not be disheartening, should not be feared, should not stop from trying new stuff, etc. Draw proper examples. Instead he chooses to stir the pot, bash education, etc. And gets bashed back -- big freaking surprise...
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Seems to be a trend - articles provoking mean-spirited belly-aching instead of interesting discussion.
No. Simply a counterpoint. Not everyone should think the herd's way, especially when a senseless proposal is on the table.
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When there seems to be nihil novi sub sole digitali, people are not easily impressed by rehashed generalities.
Quod erat demonstrandum :-)
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No right or wrong in the creative aspects of the visual arts, Robert.
Would be interested to see some of your photos.
No right or wrong, eh Graeme?
Ok, how about there is talent or no talent? Great or rubbish, perhaps? Definitions abound, of course, so how do we decide what hangs in the Louvre? Will it accept your child's wonderful finger painting? Probably not, but why not? Or could we apply the monetary test; open an exhibition and see what sells. It's quite a powerful method, but not foolproof (think Van Gogh). Perhaps it's a combination of factors with technique playing an important part. Is that "right"?
But then there's the bit about seeing some of his photos. How many times have we read this type of comment in reply to someone having the sheer audacity to demand standards or the like. Yeah, I bet your snaps are a real laugh, Robert. Do these demanders complain about that rotten portrait in the Louvre and then come back the next day with their masterpiece they've knocked up that night? As if you have to do better as a license to critique.
I think we see Robert's "right" or "wrong" as a shortcut or summary of multiple factors which contribute to success or otherwise. (Yes, what is success....).
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No right or wrong, eh Graeme?
Ok, how about there is talent or no talent? Great or rubbish, perhaps? Definitions abound, of course, so how do we decide what hangs in the Louvre? Will it accept your child's wonderful finger painting? Probably not, but why not? Or could we apply the monetary test; open an exhibition and see what sells. It's quite a powerful method, but not foolproof (think Van Gogh). Perhaps it's a combination of factors with technique playing an important part. Is that "right"?
But then there's the bit about seeing some of his photos. How many times have we read this type of comment in reply to someone having the sheer audacity to demand standards or the like. Yeah, I bet your snaps are a real laugh, Robert. Do these demanders complain about that rotten portrait in the Louvre and then come back the next day with their masterpiece they've knocked up that night? As if you have to do better as a license to critique.
I think we see Robert's "right" or "wrong" as a shortcut or summary of multiple factors which contribute to success or otherwise. (Yes, what is success....).
I said no right or wrong in the creative aspects of the visual arts: That is the generation of ideas and the finding of inspiration.
The craft side of the visual arts is a different thing: If I'm doing a life drawing & I've drawn the models head out of proportion to the body or ( as usual ) made a really bad job of drawing the hand then the drawing is a failure as a finished work of art & I wouldn't put it up on my wall or exhibit it. But if parts of the drawing were interesting I'd keep it to refer to for inspiration later on.
Re the' child's wonderful finger painting'. No, I wouldn't hang it in the Louvre, but I would look at it to see if there was anything of interest going on in it. Like the germ of an idea that could be developed into a work which was worthy of being hung in the Louvre
When I was studying stained glass we spent part of the course on 'Visual Studies' - basically the generating of ideas & inspiration. Glenys Cour was our teacher, her work can be seen at:
http://www.glenyscour.co.uk
We would do drawings, make collages, marble paper & generally muck around with paints, pastels or whatever. The idea was to come up with ideas that would be the starting point for larger more constrained projects. You didn't have to worry about doing 'bad' or 'good' stuff in a Visual Studies session - it was about playing around and seeing what happened. One day one of the students held up some of his work & said ' a child could do this stuff'. Glenys' reply was 'Yes, but they wouldn't know they'd done it'.
She wouldn't let us throw any of our Visual Research stuff away.
Re My statement that it would be interesting to see some of Robert's photos - you can take it literally: I would be interested to see the work of someone who was so offended by the relatively innocuous article.
I wouldn't try to define 'success' - you probably have to come up with your own personal definition & apply it to your own life.
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Graeme: "I said no right or wrong in the creative aspects of the visual arts: That is the generation of ideas and the finding of inspiration".
I see. I would agree with that, but we'd need essay space to pursue that one! The relationship between science and art is sometimes close when it comes to formulating an hypothesis and creating a widely lauded piece of art. Some claim their hypothesis came in a dream or moment of contemplation. Very complex.
Of course, the hypothesis, however it came into being, will stand or fall by the accepted weight of empirical evidence (or should, sadly the outrageous abandonment of such testing is evident in current fashionable causes and scams).
You mentioned a few "falls" which would negate the child's bright idea, but storing away the idea for a future run... I don't know how that would be realised in practice. And I note you mentioned incorrect ("wrong") proportion in, say, a drawing, but who's judging that? I agree with you, and I think Robert was too, including that as widespread acceptance of certain standards which add to a "right", or lack of them to a "wrong" when realising the final work.
I have ideas about "success" but enough of essays.
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Graeme: "I said no right or wrong in the creative aspects of the visual arts: That is the generation of ideas and the finding of inspiration".
And I note you mentioned incorrect ("wrong") proportion in, say, a drawing, but who's judging that?
Anyone holding a straightedge ( pencil, ruler, plumb line etc ) at arm's length while doing the drawing or anyone with even half an eye looking critically at the finished drawing.
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Anyone holding a straightedge ( pencil, ruler, plumb line etc ) at arm's length while doing the drawing or anyone with even half an eye looking critically at the finished drawing.
W/o going into much details (another can of worms, actually...) I'll just say: that does not work.
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W/o going into much details (another can of worms, actually...) I'll just say: that does not work.
Oh come on, details please.
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Anyone holding a straightedge ( pencil, ruler, plumb line etc ) at arm's length
No, they're only measuring. Who decides the measurements are not right?
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The title is a little misleading. There doesn't seem to be any real reason to fail at anything. Failing, where it relates to photography, is not setting your ISO correctly, or your lens falls off your camera - or something. The word experiment, on the other hand, try new things etc is what art photographers should be doing anyway. Maybe I missed the point, I don't know.
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I think what he was saying is, "If you get in an elevator, push the button for the 16th floor, and on the way up, you trip and fall down - you're still going UP!" ;D
Rand
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Failure is only failure if we don't learn from it.
How do you do something that has never been done before and there is no 'old master' to tell you 'right and wrong'?
You plan and structure your attempt as well as possible and learn from your results to integrate your experience into future attempts.
For everyone who still needs rights and wrongs, just stick to your caves, berry picking and snare traps. Scientific experimentation and discovery were clearly wrong as all of those pioneers were told by the accepted authorities of their times.
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Failure is only failure if we don't learn from it.
How do you do something that has never been done before and there is no 'old master' to tell you 'right and wrong'?
You plan and structure your attempt as well as possible and learn from your results to integrate your experience into future attempts.
For everyone who still needs rights and wrongs, just stick to your caves, berry picking and snare traps. Scientific experimentation and discovery were clearly wrong as all of those pioneers were told by the accepted authorities of their times.
Well said Phillip
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Regarding the article/essay "Fail Forward and Fail Hard" I disagree with 90% of what he has to say, and his images are...well...odd, IMHO; the links to his website don't work. This is the kind of new age touchy-feely drivel a lot of kids get in school today. Don't worry if you fail the test kids. We'll give you an "A" to make you feel good. In my 50-year career (not photography) I learned what was right and what was wrong from those who were smart and those who were stupid, respectfully. I always tried very hard to not make mistakes.
Wow - the vitriolic responses to Angelo's article and subsequent posts here are rather shocking. All he is saying is learn from your mistakes. Surely you've heard that one before - it's not new-age, it's not touchy-feeling. Henry Ford said it almost 100 years ago, "Failure is only the opportunity to begin again, this time more intelligently." In fact, Ford goes on to say, " There is no disgrace in honest failure; there is disgrace in fearing to fail." (p. 19. Quotes in: Arch Wilkinson Shaw (1927). The Magazine of Business, Vol. 52, p. 182)
I see what Angelo and Ford are saying everyday in school: students unwilling to commit an answer to paper or a perspective for discussion because they don't want to get " it wrong". In fact a whole generation of students are still using pencil all the way through high school for this very reason. Or there is more white out on the page than there is paper because they want to cover up their mistakes, as if everything they do is a "final paper".
What I spend much of my time doing is coaching students to do exactly what Angelo is saying: don't be afraid of mistakes: when you make errors (in spelling, maths, judgement, facts), learn from them and move on. I think we all do this on a regular basis. Of course we try our best not to make mistakes, but it's our approach to the mistakes we make that allow us either to move forward or forever be stuck in first gear.
Most of the time, photographers here are very open to learning from their mistakes and and welcome the helpful critique received. We often hear, "Hey, thanks for pointing that out." It's how we grow. Angelo's fault may have been in stating the obvious - but it's only obvious to those who have made that leap. Not everyone reading this forum has years of experience (and mistakes) behind them, so a range of articles at different levels are needed to keep this forum alive.
What's even more upsetting, though, is that this first post seems to have set the tone for the series of posts after it. Robertfields expressed an opinion - but it is clearly NOT based on what Angelo wrote. In fact, based on what he appears to have understood from the article, Robertfields would receive an F in comprehension.
I've already pointed out the thinking expressed in the article is clearly not "new age touchy-feely drivel a lot of kids get in school today". A comment like "Don't worry if you fail the test kids. We'll give you an "A" to make you feel good." is not at all what was written and again shows a lack of comprehension. The OP seems only to want to use his response as his own sounding board while not actually discussing the reality of what was written. Interestingly, the OPs post tells us more about him then perhaps he would like us to know. :)
But perhaps what really grinds my gears is that no one seemed to directly challenge the OPs baseless and inflammatory remarks.
Why has it become acceptable to accept, without question, a grumpy, negativistic, opinion that does not actually reflect the reality of what was written? It seems too many are falling into the Trump-trap of shooting from the lip without any connection to the reality of facts. And, if it's said with enough impact, it stands. What a shame it will be if we let this kind of speaking rule the world (or this Forum!). Cue the political correctness rhetoric!
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Thanks for that post, Terry.
I couldn't agree more.
In my school days I was the kind of kid who was always afraid of getting it wrong, so I never spoke up in class. It wasn't until well after I had left school that I began to understand the value of making mistakes, and that only through mistakes does real learning occur.
In photography and elsewhere.
-Eric
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"I learn so much from my mistakes, I am going to make some more."
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Terry,
The OP expressed his opinion. You don't agree with it. You think it's a failure. Deserving an F*. Fine. Yet you attacked him so viciously for that failure, that I am afraid the OP will never again dare to fail, i.e., express his opinion. You see the irony?
* By the way, in the new-age, touchy-freely school, there are no Fs. The lowest grade is C, and you get it even if you fail to show up for the test.
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Terry,
The OP expressed his opinion. You don't agree with it. You think it's a failure. Deserving an F*. Fine. Yet you attacked him so viciously for that failure, that I am afraid the OP will never again dare to fail, i.e., express his opinion. You see the irony?
* By the way, in the new-age, touchy-freely school, there are no Fs. The lowest grade is C, and you get it even if you fail to show up for the test.
I'm all for expression of opinions and will always defend one's right to their opinion, but not when the opinion is being expressed by totally miscomprehending what was originally said in order to grand stand and inflame.
BTW there are still Fs in school. Your talk about grades and that of the OP does nothing to further the discussion; it's not only wrong, but you drop it in there only to grab attention. We're not selling newspapers or air time, so let's try and leave the misrepresentations-for-effect out of the usually helpful, creative and positive discussions that go on here.
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Hey guys and gals, relax and think about what Angelo wrote. I think one of the hardest things to do in any art or even life endeavor is to experiment and be ready to have the experiment yield negative results, so the really successful creative people learn from the results of probing and probe some more with new tools. I try to understand what is around me and present it in my photographs. Some pictures work and others do not and some of the images I like, others do not like. It is my job to be true to my own vision and keep refining it so that ultimately the pictures speak for themselves and I can shut up.
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... BTW there are still Fs in school. Your talk about grades...
It was you who brought grades into the discussion:
...Robertfields would receive an F in comprehension...
As for the new-age schools' new grading systems: http://dailycaller.com/2015/10/27/students-in-california-school-district-now-guaranteed-c-grades-for-doing-nothing/
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Just my opinion
Failure, Mistake and Experimentation are different things. Not all mistakes lead to failure, in fact several discoveries have been made through history because of mistakes.
We experiment because we are not sure of the outcome. Experimenting without making mistakes does not mean our idea will work. If it doesn't, it should not be considered a failure but as "now we know it doesn't work" learning, increasing the body of knowledge.
When is it bad? When someone repeatedly makes the same mistake over and over again knowing that the outcome will be a failure. If you think this does not happen in real life just look at politics.
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But perhaps what really grinds my gears is that no one seemed to directly challenge the OPs baseless and inflammatory remarks.
No-one? I think there have been a few comments to challenge the OP, including my first post - "I think many of you are being a bit harsh. Seems to me most of what the writer says is common sense." (Post 11).
Jim
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More so than ever are photographers going to have to take chances to create images that are memorable or stand out from the billions that are already out there. I find the bashing of public education from a bunch of well to do white males a bit distressing. Yes the article about all students getting a C is awful, but I think this is an exception rather than the rule. I'm sorry but our livilyhood is directly connected to those coming up the ranks through our education system. If we do away with public education in the US we will see disparity that will further divide our country. Instead make it better! I read these post while setting up my classroom. In a couple of hours I am about to start a new school year. I'm looking forward to greeting my new 5th and 6th grade class here at Yosemite Park El Portal School. This year I got a grant from Adobe to teach my students Photoshop Elements. I also wan't to have my students build pin hole cameras! No the system is not perfect, but we are no longer living in 1953. The world has changed!
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;)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BtmSTMjCUAEEqKC.png)
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:P
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Funny
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My brother once commented to me that he was undoubtedly the only person I knew who had been a dropout from high school, college, and graduate school.
That was true.
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I think the problem lies in terminology.
Reading the brief piece isn't offensive at all - just tailored to a readership that's still wearing its L plates. And why not? Before we end up with WW3 - again - 'learning' is indeed a lifelong job, like it or not, but there's a difference in the application context. Apply it to the situation of the neophyte and it's helpful advice; the same sentiment articulated to the old hand is just silly: nobody who has learned how to do whatever he has to do within photography thinks that he has stopped 'learning' but it isn't really seen as that (its just a linguistic conceit to try and force that issue): it's seen as trying out different directions. I hesitate to call them new ideas because I hardly think photography has even one anymore: it's all been done before - to the death, and decades ago.
The nub of it's this: when you already know perfectly well what you're doing, you can try doing something different (to your norm) and perhaps enjoy it - or not. That's not to say you are learning anything in any real sense of the word - just finding out if it suits you. Learning could possibly be applied to techical approaches (are you learning by doing something you know how to do but just haven't bothered doing before?), but hardly to conceptual resolve or intention; that's already alive and well in your head or simply absent, in which case stop trying to invoke it because it ain't comin'.
If there's one problem with this article, it's not actually within the article per se, but in the greater, external mindest that feels obliged to defend failure when failure is just as real as success. It's called political correctness, all right, but because it has reached a state of saturation acceptance withing some worlds doesn't make it an intelligent belief. It's a long-running fashion that, in time, will fail (!) by its own consequences. Trouble is, the casualties will forever be surprised and wonder why and where it all went wrong.
Failure can come from being in the wrong job, and even from being in the right job but the wrong town when you are trying to find your Golden Fleece. It can be your fault and not, but generally it is your fault: you should be aware enough to calculate the odds for and agin your project. Based on that calculation you then have to decide what matters most: your continued pusuit after whatever, or the application of common sense and a career change. Neither way leads to certainty - either can lead to lifelong regrets, of omission or of commission.
So yeah, life's a gamble and, hand on heart, would you want it any other way? Taken to the extreme; do you really want the date of your death?