Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: joshcomley on July 24, 2016, 07:46:49 pm
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New to MF, I have tried to read (and read and read and read) all I can, and although I am beginning to grasp the arena to some degree I am none-the-wiser to what is a good price for what.
I understand that used prices vary due to condition etc., but could anybody advise how they might spend their money if they were in the market for a digital back now for the Mamiya 645 AFD III? I have one being delivered with one lens and no back.
My key goals are landscape and portraits, some candid but not sports or action; it doesn't need to be fast. I know quality lenses are crucial, but without a back they're useless, so first I must buy a back, then slowly add good lenses :)
Many thanks in advance
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Mate, I started off with a Mamiya 645AF film then went to a 645AFD and was in the same situation you are in. Probably the same situation the guy who sold you this was in.
Frankly I thought the camera was bit of a brick and there was no easy or cheap solution for a back.
I finished up buying a Hasselblad H1 with Phase back and then moved to H2, then sold the lot and bought an H3DII-31. Now have H3DII-39
Much better camera, much better lens range and integrated back.
I am sure for less than you will buy a back for and certainly less than GBP2000 you would buy an H3D-31 or better and sell the Mamiya 645AFD.
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You could look around for a Leaf Aptus II. The 33 MP model has a large sensor. The 22MP model is also nice. Check out the fat pixel magic thread in GetDPI. Plenty of great images from both.
Phase one backs from that era do not have a very good display on the back, but are solid otherwise. They are generally more expensive though.
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Hi guys,
Thank you both so much for your replies.
BobShaw - I have read a few people talk about the Hasselblads being superior to the Mamiyas, I am new to MFD and am curious what kind of difference I would see if I swapped? I picked up my Mamiya AFD III for a relatively good price, so I am sure I could sell it again if need be for the same. Also, can I change the back on the H3DII-31? I like the idea of saving up good money over the next year and investing in a fantastic, newer digital back for my Mamiya, and of occasionally shooting film (although I am sure I can give up the latter opportunity).
synn - Thank you; I had considered the Leaf Aptus II range but can't find any for sale with my fitting right now and wasn't sure if it would be within my price range. One of the biggest challenges for a newbie to MFD like myself is knowing exactly what is good value for a used back! I did have a thoroughly good look through that thread actually a week or so ago, but in the week since I've learned so much more that it's worth another look with my better grasp of the ecosystem as a whole :) so thank you for pointing me there.
Thank you both again, really appreciate the help.
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Hi Josh, welcome on board!
In the UK you could start by talking to 2-3 good dealers and "spreading the word"...DDI (http://directdigitalimaging.co.uk), Peartree (http://peartreephoto.com) and Teamwork (http://www.teamworkphoto.com) will all be able to help with advice and maybe some offers...
Good luck!
Yair
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Hi Yair,
Thank you for the pointers, I notice you're a Phase One product manager, which gives me confidence in the links you gave!
I'll take a look through, see what I can find.
Thanks again,
Josh
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DDI has this P25+ for your Mamiya (http://directdigitalimaging.co.uk/product/Phase%20One/Pre-owned%20Phase%20One%20P25+%20M645%20fit%20back/713).
It's slightly over budget, but from what I've seen so far seems to be worth it. There's a thread about the H25 (same sensor) with some sample images (http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=111029.0).
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DDI has this P25+ for your Mamiya (http://directdigitalimaging.co.uk/product/Phase%20One/Pre-owned%20Phase%20One%20P25+%20M645%20fit%20back/713).
It's slightly over budget, but from what I've seen so far seems to be worth it. There's a thread about the H25 (same sensor) with some sample images (http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=111029.0).
Thanks for that - I think that is above budget right now, I'm fairly sure I can find it at a better price if I wait. However, patience is not a virtue of mine when it comes to wanting to shoot my new toys :) It does look like the P25+ would be a superb back; some of the shots from the H25 and P25 I've seen on GetDPI look incredible.
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Thanks for that - I think that is above budget right now, I'm fairly sure I can find it at a better price if I wait. However, patience is not a virtue of mine when it comes to wanting to shoot my new toys :) It does look like the P25+ would be a superb back; some of the shots from the H25 and P25 I've seen on GetDPI look incredible.
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Leaf-Aptus-22-Digital-Back-for-Mamiya-Phase-One-/152177310102?hash=item236e797996:g:cbgAAOSwtnpXigt4
Maybe it's your lucky day. :)
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Ah man, that is tempting. The only thing holding me back is I had the opportunity to buy an Aptus 22 yesterday for £500 less, but Hasselblad fit! I was confused about fittings, as I thought the 645 AFD III could handle all sorts of fittings. For the extra £500 I could almost buy a Hasselblad body of some kind *and* the 22 from yesterday!
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Hasselblad H1 or H2 are quite similar to the Mamiya 645 series in terms of the feature set, but several people consider their ergonomics superior.
H3 onwards, the back and body are mated together, which means you cannot upgrade them separately (On the most parts).
I was in the same boat as you for months before I made my purchase. One reason I went for the Mamiya body was because with the Hasselblad, I was limited to a 1/800 top shutterspeed and also because additional lenses will cost a lot more, even when used. With the Mamiya, one can get film era AF lenses for only a few hundreds each and they work astonishingly well with all but the highest MP backs.
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I would agree for you to sell your Mamiya body and go for an alternative platform instead... If not anything else to convince you, is to look for at S/H prices... there is a reason behind S/H prices that has never proved wrong through the years... staying with the platform it will lead for you to purchase additional equipment that will also be undervalued in the future and it will lead in a point where you'll be trapped with it, but unable to run away from the trap anymore... The sooner that one avoids a trap, the more financially harming it gets... Just look how much cheaper you can buy a P1 or Leaf back for M645 fit than if it is for other platform... Can you understand why? It is simply because your back won't be supported anymore if you try to upgrade your body and your body is the least capable out of all alternative platforms one may have...
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Theo, can you please take your anti PhaseOne agenda elsewhere? There are a thousand other threads to pollute without confusing someone just getting into MF. To go by your own advise, since you own nothing from Mamiya, please sit this one out as there is nothing useful you can add here. And please stop with the outright lies.
For one, the reason why Mamiya mount backs are cheaper than say, contax mount or Hasselblad V mount in general is because of good old supply and demand. There are far more Mamiya mount backs out there than those two mounts. Hasselblad H mount backs are actually a bit cheaper, going by the current market prices, but not by much. AFi/ Hy6 mount leaf backs are very rare to come by these days because current owners do not want to part ways with them, which makes them perhaps the most expensive (And the least amount made).
OP: Please ignore the rest of the fearmongering in that post. Here is the ACTUAL compatibility list for your sake.
- Your AFD III will work with Leaf Aptus, Aptus II and Phaseone P, P+ backs (In your pricerange). Phaseone IQ 1and 2 and Leaf Credo backs will also work with it, if you want to upgrade. That's close to a dozen backs (Many of them current)you can upgrade to for quite some time. It will also work with Mamiya film backs.
- Phase One IQ3 backs will not work with your body, but if you are going to invest 40K in a back, might as well drop another 7k and get a new body to go with it.
- Similarly, the Phase One XF body will not work with an Aptus or P series back, but ask yourself if you will upgrade to a 7K body for a 2K back at any point of time.
- Your body does not support the Schneider Kreuznach leaf shutter lenses for the M645 platform. You will need to get a Mamiya 645DF or DF+ for that. I personally own and use a DF+ which I find quite capable for my purposes. I can share image samples at request, unlike fearmongers who do not ever post images. You can find these used nowadays at quite decent prices (Especially after the launch of the XF). Every lens you buy for the AFD III will also work on the DF/ DF+ along with the leaf shutter lenses.
On the Hasselblad side,
- An H1 or H2 will let you use an Aptus or P series back made in the H mount. You can independently upgrade back and body with this combo. You can also use film backs. The H2D comes with a mated back that cannot be independently upgraded (IIRC).
- H3 series are back and body mated. You cannot individually upgrade these, but at lease one poster here has used an H3 series back on an H4 series body and it worked.
- You get something called Trufocus with the H4 series bodies, which is quite good for portraiture applications. H4 series cameras come in two flavors, one with a mated back (Which cannot be upgraded independently) and something called H4X, which will allow you to use third party backs. Phase One P, IQ 1and2 and Leaf Credo backs will work with it. Aptus I and II series backs will not work and there has been a long and documented story about this with Hasselblad and Leaf blaming each other for the incompatibility, with no clear answer.
- The newer Hasselblad bodies are out of the current budget that you#re working with.
These two are realistically, the only two systems one should get into in 2016. Everything else (Contax, Hy6/AFi, Hasselblad V) are out of production and even though they might offer some unique features, a dead system is a dead system.
Now Knowing Theodoros, he will bark and froth in this thread until every single person who has said anything positive about Mamiya/ PhaseOne admits that they are wrong and walks away. (Just FYI, he does not own anything from Mamiya, has never owned anything from Mamiya and only exists in this forum to express his intense displeasure at products that come from the Mamiya Phase One camp). So in order to not derail your thread, I will not be posting here anymore. If you have any additional questions, please PM me and I will do my best to answer them.
Cheers!
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Let's avoid thread hijacking to another Theo vs. Synn diatribe.
Should you continue in this vein, I will lock the thread
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Let's avoid thread hijacking to another Theo vs. Synn diatribe.
Should you continue in this vein, I will lock the thread
Hi Chris... I never quoted or answered Synn's comments... I only answered to the O/P requirement with a fully supported (with market evidence) comment... I also never used Synn's name in one of my comments nor I ever do for anybody... The fact that he is not in my ignore list as he is with so many other members of the forum, is purely because I don't have anybody in my ignore list. So I don't see why you made this statement... I only reply to the receiver of my posts and thus only to the O/P in this discussion... Synn's intentions don't concern me nor I believe anybody else in this forum...
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Occasionally while walking my dogs - two rather docile Labs - I pass a chain-linked fence behind which are two highly aggressive and territorial German Shepherds.
They rush up and down the fence snarling, barking and generally making themselves as unpleasant as possible.
I talk my guys down a bit and they accept the nonsense and we continue our walk. We have got quite used to the reception - it is absolutely predictable.
However some days I tire of the noise & aggression and take another route. Yes, I have the right to walk where I please along public roads but sometimes the world is a quieter and better place when I avoid the reaction I know will occur.
As Schewe says: "Just sayin...'"
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Hi Chris,
Would be nice to see some new stuff with Jeff.
Best regards
Erik
Occasionally while walking my dogs - two rather docile Labs - I pass a chain-linked fence behind which are two highly aggressive and territorial German Shepherds.
They rush up and down the fence snarling, barking and generally making themselves as unpleasant as possible.
I talk my guys down a bit and they accept the nonsense and we continue our walk. We have got quite used to the reception - it is absolutely predictable.
However some days I tire of the noise & aggression and take another route. Yes, I have the right to walk where I please along public roads but sometimes the world is a quieter and better place when I avoid the reaction I know will occur.
As Schewe says: "Just sayin...'"
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- H3 series are back and body mated. You cannot individually upgrade these, but at lease one poster here has used an H3 series back on an H4 series body and it worked.
Do you know the specifics of this? I have the H3DII-39 and would like to use an H4D body to get Truefocus.
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Do you know the specifics of this? I have the H3DII-39 and would like to use an H4D body to get Truefocus.
I don't usually get on well with the gentleman who posted the compatibility list, but I think he's provided good information. I don't share his opinion about fellow posters.
There's a post by Steve Hendrix or Doug Peterson about the Hassies, probably Steve, someone may have it handy. BTW, both Steve and Doug sell used stuff, especially Phase backs, and nobody has ever complained about them. Both are very helpful.
Here is a UK dealer in used Phase and Hassy/ If it were me, I would resell the Mamiya and get a Hassy body, either all Hassy or with a Phase back, if you really love C1. The Phase backs are nice, the Mamiya bodies less so. The Hassy backs are good, but they don't do C1 which some really like.
http://procentre.co.uk/sales-secondhand-hasselblad-h-system.php
http://procentre.co.uk/sales-secondhand-medium-format-digital.php
Edmund
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Aloha,
The pentax 645D
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3019-Pentax-645D-Medium-Format-Digital-SLR-Camera-Body-w-Box-from-Tokyo-/272318332341?hash=item3f676ffdb5:g:lXEAAOSwEjFXc9er
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BobShaw - I have read a few people talk about the Hasselblads being superior to the Mamiyas, I am new to MFD and am curious what kind of difference I would see if I swapped? I picked up my Mamiya AFD III for a relatively good price, so I am sure I could sell it again if need be for the same. Also, can I change the back on the H3DII-31? I like the idea of saving up good money over the next year and investing in a fantastic, newer digital back for my Mamiya, and of occasionally shooting film (although I am sure I can give up the latter opportunity).
It is a while since I used the Mamiya AFD. The Mamiya AFDIII became the Phase One DF I believe. I think there were issues just getting a compatible back at the right price. Compatible seemed to be a fluid word depending on who you asked. You need to speak with a Phase dealer. The back on the H3D can be removed. It is modular like the Mamiya, so you can use the back on a view camera say. As for actually changing backs then that is more difficult as they are matched. It can be done by the factory at a cost. You usually just sell the both and buy a newer one. All lenses etc are compatible. Film only goes to H3DI or the H4x series.
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Hi everybody,
Thank you all for your kind advice and apologies for my delay in responding.
Lots of information to ingest here, and a special thanks to Synn for the wonderfully put together details on compatibility.
I bought my Mamiya 645 AFD III based on the belief that it provided the best balance of lens/back compatibility for the price (I got the body with an 80mm lens for £500), but then it seems I would need to buy a back that really lacked any future proof should I upgrade to a Phase One XF system in a few years, but as Synn pointed out, if I do this, and can afford it, I would likely care little about losing some money on the resale value of my old 645 AFD compatible digital back.
I also have an RZ67 Pro II to which I am very new but have done some shooting with, with some very pleasing results so far (for me at least; a baby amateur by a lot of your standards!). I was hoping some level of compatibility between what I buy for the RZ67 Pro II and what I buy for the 645 AFD III, but it looks like that may have been a mistake; if anything I can get an H adapter for my RZ67 Pro II, potentially buy a Hasselblad H2 and be able to share my back between the two bodies, and if I upgrade later to an H4X I think would still work on that, if I would be unable to afford to upgrade back and body at the same time.
I haven't really looked in any depth into the lenses for Hasselblad yet to see the price difference people talk of, but I have read a number of reviews of various newer(ish) Phase One and Hasselblad systems and it does look like both are extremely capable systems that would be limited for some good years by my own ability as a photographer more than their own quality as systems.
@leeonmaui, that is a great price on the Pentax 645D, thank you for the link! But it is body mated and I definitely want to maintain a modular system for now.
One thing seems clear: I have probably bought the wrong body. Then again, if I can find a cheap enough back to go with it, I can begin collecting some Phase One lenses that will work down the line on future bodies and don't need to worry too much about the resale value of the (relatively) cheap starter equipment.
I've written all this and still feel confused :o
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I think a good solution would be to call a dealer and get an offer on back+body so you will be sure that it works, and use the AFDIII in the exchange to get a discount.
Start from there and then find a suitable RZ67 adapter. Keep in mind that anything you buy now for your budget will be worth a lot less by the time you upgrade, so don't think about resale value but features you need right now. If you buy something you can shoot for a couple of years, it will be money well spent even if you make nothing back (can always keep it as backup).
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I think a good solution would be to call a dealer and get an offer on back+body so you will be sure that it works, and use the AFDIII in the exchange to get a discount.
Start from there and then find a suitable RZ67 adapter. Keep in mind that anything you buy now for your budget will be worth a lot less by the time you upgrade, so don't think about resale value but features you need right now. If you buy something you can shoot for a couple of years, it will be money well spent even if you make nothing back (can always keep it as backup).
That's not a bad idea, thank you. My body *just* arrived in the post.. :( I was excited about getting it, I suppose now it looks like I might be selling it!
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That's not a bad idea, thank you. My body *just* arrived in the post.. :( I was excited about getting it, I suppose now it looks like I might be selling it!
Just find a back for it and start shooting...you'll have an easier time finding decent lightweight lenses for it that mostly do not require any service (no shutters). Both back and body will have some value in them if & when you move up and an M back is easier to find and easier to mate to other platforms e.g RZ...
Good luck
Yair
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Regarding the body: newer bodies certainly are more capable, but the image quality is determined by the back, not by the body. You can do great stuff with your AFDIII and a decent back. A weak point of your body is auto-focus, which somewhat constrains the use (I wouldn't shoot sports with it), but for most use cases, the compromise is actually not that bad. If you're getting into medium format for resolution, dynamic range etc. with a low budget, then it's probably better spent on a back. I agree that you should start to get shooting (you can still upgrade later). I am currently shooting with a 645DF+. Of course I'd love to own the XF body... I tested it for a week and it's awesome. But considering the amount of money I would have to spend, my DF+ is still fine. I'll wait.
I have a PhaseOne P40+ for sale, which I purchased directly from PhaseOne in October 2012. I'm selling it because I recently upgraded to an IQ250. The price I have in mind for the P40+ is more like 3000 GBP, so I understand if this is irrelevant for you. If interested though, send me a PM. I'm based in Berlin.
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Regarding the body: newer bodies certainly are more capable, but the image quality is determined by the back, not by the body. You can do great stuff with your AFDIII and a decent back. A weak point of your body is auto-focus, which somewhat constrains the use (I wouldn't shoot sports with it), but for most use cases, the compromise is actually not that bad. If you're getting into medium format for resolution, dynamic range etc. with a low budget, then it's probably better spent on a back. I agree that you should start to get shooting (you can still upgrade later). I am currently shooting with a 645DF+. Of course I'd love to own the XF body... I tested it for a week and it's awesome. But considering the amount of money I would have to spend, my DF+ is still fine. I'll wait.
I have a PhaseOne P40+ for sale, which I purchased directly from PhaseOne in October 2012. I'm selling it because I recently upgraded to an IQ250. The price I have in mind for the P40+ is more like 3000 GBP, so I understand if this is irrelevant for you. If interested though, send me a PM. I'm based in Berlin.
I actually am based in Berlin, too, except I am spending a few weeks in the UK :) Gotta love that city; so much to photograph!
There is a P20 on eBay right now, at £509 in auction ending in a few hours, so it'll probably go for around £600. My problem with buying that is that the sensor size is the smallest MF sensor there is, with a crop factor of 1.5x, so I'd be spending £600 on making my MF only just a tad better than a 35mm digital sensor.
Your P40+ sounds lovely, but as you say it's out of my price range :)
I think patience is the winner in this game now. I think I'll keep my body and wait for a P25/P25+ to poach for around £1000 somewhere.
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I actually am based in Berlin, too, except I am spending a few weeks in the UK :) Gotta love that city; so much to photograph!
There is a P20 on eBay right now, at £509 in auction ending in a few hours, so it'll probably go for around £600. My problem with buying that is that the sensor size is the smallest MF sensor there is, with a crop factor of 1.5x, so I'd be spending £600 on making my MF only just a tad better than a 35mm digital sensor.
Your P40+ sounds lovely, but as you say it's out of my price range :)
I think patience is the winner in this game now. I think I'll keep my body and wait for a P25/P25+ to poach for around £1000 somewhere.
Clearly P25 is the best solution one may have if you decide to stick with the AFD III... IMO, all 22mp 37x49mm Kodak sensor backs out of all makers that made them, have a unique "look" in their image that many find unsurpassed even today (the now famous "fat pixel magic). Unfortunately, the rest of the makers backs work only on the AFD and not on the later Mamiya II & III or the DF versions... So with the AFD one is restricted to the P25 only out of all makers... Some people aren't aware about the compatibility of later than AFD II Mamiya with backs and think that if a back is of M645 fit, it is compatible with them... It is the case with AFD, but not with the versions that replaced it.
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Clearly P25 is the best solution one may have if you decide to stick with the AFD III... IMO, all 22mp 37x49mm Kodak sensor backs out of all makers that made them, have a unique "look" in their image that many find unsurpassed even today (the now famous "fat pixel magic). Unfortunately, the rest of the makers backs work only on the AFD and not on the later Mamiya II & III or the DF versions... So with the AFD one is restricted to the P25 only out of all makers... Some people aren't aware about the compatibility of later than AFD II Mamiya with backs and think that if a back is of M645 fit, it is compatible with them... It is the case with AFD, but not with the versions that replaced it.
Hi Theodoros, yes, you are absolutely right. I did read up on the AFD III and my readings implied that its advantage was compatibility, hence I bought it. But as I've discovered, it's limited. I think I'll try to get a P25/P25+ and enjoy shooting with it for a year, get used to MF and then consider selling the body and back at a loss and keeping the lenses.
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Hi Theodoros, yes, you are absolutely right. I did read up on the AFD III and my readings implied that its advantage was compatibility, hence I bought it. But as I've discovered, it's limited. I think I'll try to get a P25/P25+ and enjoy shooting with it for a year, get used to MF and then consider selling the body and back at a loss and keeping the lenses.
its really pity... The best of multishot backs, of which their image result for stills will easily surpass by much any modern 100mp Cmos back, are of 22mp when used in 16x mode for a "true colour" 88mp completely free of artifacts file... These backs are sold "for peanut" prices these days and one will be shocked out of the result if he uses it for stills at its full potential 16x mode, they are also usable at 22mp single shot mode but with further improvement in image quality over their "single shot only" counterparts because the sensors used on them where hand selected to be the best out of production... They can be used on Mamiya AFD and even need no exterior cable as to sync with it... Additionally the AFD can lock the mirror up as to maximize the performance out of them if they are used in multishot mode for the whole process time... It may would be a good idea if you would look to trade the body only for an older AFD instead and use one of these backs (I would recommend the Imacon 528c or the Hasselblad 22MS)... If there is a possibility for you to advance your tasks in the future as to include shooting "true color" multishot captures, I'm sure you won't regret changing to an older AFD... P1 or Leaf are not expected to ever release a multishot back....
EDIT: Actually P1 is not expected to release any back to support DF and earlier than that models anymore... (let alone multishot).
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Josh to make things straight, simple and clear for you; your AFDIII works with any M-mount Phase One P and P+ back and with any M-mount Leaf Aptus, Aptus S and Aptus-II back.
It also works with several 3rd party backs e.g. Eyelike/Sinar eMotion and Hasselblad CF, providing that they come with an M interface plate.
Looking forward to seeing some of your work after you've found what you're after.
BR
Yair
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Josh to make things straight, simple and clear for you; your AFDIII works with any M-mount Phase One P and P+ back and with any M-mount Leaf Aptus, Aptus S and Aptus-II back.
It also works with several 3rd party backs e.g. Eyelike/Sinar eMotion and Hasselblad CF, providing that they come with an M interface plate.
Looking forward to seeing some of your work after you've found what you're after.
BR
Yair
Hi Yair...
I'm pretty sure my ex Imacon 528c worked perfectly well with AFD, but not with AFD II because Mamiya changed the interface compatibility... I know as I've tried it myself... The fact that I prefered the Contax platform is a personal matter... Was that altered with the AFD III? Can the AFD III and later DF bodies do multishot captures with multishot able backs from Sinar or Imacon/Hasselblad? Please inform us on the matter as it is of importance for some of us...
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Josh to make things straight, simple and clear for you; your AFDIII works with any M-mount Phase One P and P+ back and with any M-mount Leaf Aptus, Aptus S and Aptus-II back.
It also works with several 3rd party backs e.g. Eyelike/Sinar eMotion and Hasselblad CF, providing that they come with an M interface plate.
Looking forward to seeing some of your work after you've found what you're after.
BR
Yair
Dear Yair,
You don't know whether his AFDIII works fine, you know that it *should* work fine.
Edmund
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Very late, but I'll give you my view:
Mamiya is a much better compatability system than Hasselblad.
The early bodies are not very good, the comparable Hasselblad bodies are better.
The new XF body is better than Hasselblad, but quite expensive.
Still, it's a pretty good way to start with AFD compatability and work your way up inside that system.
Do note that due to the much lower demand for Hasselblad, you will find much better deals on Hasselblad older backs and bodies.
eBay is always rife with every old model of Hasselblad back you could want, for pennies.
Note also that Hasselblad are not great supporting older backs and bodies. P1 is much better at that.
I would suggest that you consider the even older P20/P21 backs.
For a hobbyist they are great, and certainly a great way to start.
A little bit lower resolution but decent enough. I keep one as a backup and it works fine.
With the new software and firmware they produce very good results and are dirt cheap, so no need to break the bank.
If you have any interest to shoot tethered on location I would stay away from Aptus as their powering solution is not very good.
Untethered or tethered in studio is quite good. Aptus suppot is not as good as P1 support since the user base is much smaller the same date back will go out of support much sooner. In fact I don't know a P1 back that went out of supprt yet, but all Aptus I line (not Aptus II), which is not that old, is already out. Out of support means once broken, you can throw it away.
Pentax is great if that is your final stop, but it doesn't offer you a path into the serious stuff. Pentax doesn't allow you to process with C1, which for me is a disqualifier.
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Thank you everybody here again, apologies for very slow replying.
sbernthal, thank you for the great summary, too. This actually helped me make a decision last night; I was about to put an offer in on a slightly over-my-budget Leaf Aptus 75 with 40k actuations, but it concerned me that it was coming both not from an official vendor/reseller, from the USA to the UK, and if I had any trouble your point about Leaf products lacking support meant that if anything did go wrong with it I'd be severely out of cash with a digital brick not a digital back. Of course I don't expect any warranty left on these things, but as far as I can tell if something goes wrong with a Phase One product I can send it in and pay for a refurbishment to be done on it, which although might cost a sweet penny, would surely (?) be cheaper than buying a new back altogether.
Yair, thanks again, I checked out the vendors you linked to and their prices are above my budget compared to what I have seen possible on eBay or gumtree/craigslist. Of course I have no support/refund usually with purchases from such places as compared to the vendors, but if I go with Phase One at least I can pay to get it fixed if something does go wrong.
I so far cannot test whether my AFD III works at all as I have no back for it, not even film, but I don't want to rush into a situation where should something go wrong I have no room for movement.
Can other people confirm this is the case between Leaf/P1?
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I will confirm that if you buy an Aptus 75 and it breaks, then Phase One will not fix it for you.
That is their official statement.
Whether they will agree to make a special exception for you, I have no idea.
I would not buy a back that is out of support or about to be out of support.
You could try your luck at an independent lab, but I believe very few labs around the world understand these backs.
Also, even if you do find one by some miracle, they still need the repacement part, and I believe it will not be possible to find most of them for the out of support backs.
On the other side, a Phase One back fix will run you normally $2500 - so if you pay for the back not much more than that, it means not much difference between back in or out of support.
Number of actulations means very little IMO.
You want to see if the back seems beat up or well cared for.
Possible problems with these backs:
External interfaces - comm and power.
Scratched CCD or broken LCD.
That's most of it.
P1 backs are more resilient.
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BTW I didn't say there's a problem with Leaf support, only with the support of the first line of Aptus.
Aptus II are still supported, and I expect for a few more years.
Credo I would estimate will be supported for a very long time.