Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: hasselbladfan on June 22, 2016, 08:49:19 am
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For those who missed the live stream.
Hasselblad X1D-50c
first mirrorless medium format camera
same sensor as the H6D50c (43.8 x 32.9 mmm)
possibility to shoot square format (39 MP) and Xpan format (according to Adorama website)
same touchscreen as H6D
EVP XGA 2.4 MP (as Sony a7RII)
100-25,600 ISO
AF via contrast detection
shutter 60 min - 1/2000s
1.7 - 2.3 frames per sec
725g - 14 stops DR
new serie of lenses with CS, 45mm/3.5 and 90mm/3.2 available at start, 30mm at Photokina
all H lenses can be used with adapter
USB 3.0 - dual SD - Wifi & GPS
Nikon compatible hotshoe
Handmade in Sweden - fully designed by Hasselblad, no involvement by Fuji
Demos available end July, delivery end Aug-Sept
Europe 7,900 euro (ex VAT)
US $ 8,996, 45mm $2,295, 90mm $ 2,695 at B&H
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Forgot to mention. I want one. :):):)
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Nikon TTL in the hotshoe (couldn't see the shoe as it's got a cover on it.
Did I say I want one too?
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Looks great. The design is super clean, but can someone give us more details about the EVF features (if they exist), like focus peaking, and manually selecting an area to zoom in for manual focusing, etc.
I don't see any control dials or arrow pads on the back of the camera that indicate I can move focus points or move around manual focus zoom boxes while my eye is in the viewfinder, for example.
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I don't see any control dials or arrow pads on the back of the camera that indicate I can move focus points or move around manual focus zoom boxes while my eye is in the viewfinder, for example.
Touch screen on the back
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Looks great. The design is super clean, but can someone give us more details about the EVF features (if they exist), like focus peaking, and manually selecting an area to zoom in for manual focusing, etc.
I don't see any control dials or arrow pads on the back of the camera that indicate I can move focus points or move around manual focus zoom boxes while my eye is in the viewfinder, for example.
Single central focus point and no Truefocus (from the H series). There is an adapter available for HC lenses. No IBIS but no mirror slap and leaf shutters will surely help.
I have an H6D which is my work horse but I have ordered one of these as well for location and travel.
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Perhaps instead of waiting patiently for the D5X, I should just buy this? The price likely won't be much different in either case. Of course I'd have to invest in new glass... but, then again, perhaps Trump would respond to my Go Fund Me site if I did it...
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Did I read that right 1 focus point? I was wondering how many AF points would be included.
Paul C
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I included the latest specs They put on their website.
Number of AF points is not mentioned, but likely only 1.
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Latest news from Adorama (not on the Hasselblad website)
After listening to the feedback from Hasselblad users, Hasselblad has implemented different image capture modes. These will include a square format (delivering a 39MP capture) and finally the much requested XPan panoramic format.
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no electronic shutter? missed oportunity...
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I heard it does have an electronic shutter. On the Mode pasm dial it says M and then Mq for quiet.
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Leaf shutters.
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An elctronic shutter would allow loads of legacy lenses and view cameras to be used. Cambo Actus comes to mind. I am not shure how many Hasselblad users use their backs in view cameras, probably many less the Phase users.
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US prices now available, also for the lenses.
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I'm interested in this camera, but I don't understand 1 focus point. The 645z has more than that. It's not a deal breaker, but it gives pause.
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I'm interested in this camera, but I don't understand 1 focus point. The 645z has more than that. It's not a deal breaker, but it gives pause.
It depends on how good the manual focus helper is.
Cheers,
Bernard
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If you are a Hassie user, you get a very good second camera (EVP could be better, that's a pity) for 9,000 usd, with the same sensor as your base equipment, not bad.
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My guess is this simply isn't going to be a camera with fast AF performance, in that situation I don't think there's really much need for more AF points as focus and recompose should be fine for most users.
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My guess is this simply isn't going to be a camera with fast AF performance, in that situation I don't think there's really much need for more AF points as focus and recompose should be fine for most users.
does it have eye-AF/Face Detection ? like some lowly cheap dSLMs (may be even cell phones now) can focus on left eye, right eye, nearest eye or shoot when smile detected or find the proper face in the group ...
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No and it can't put emoji's on the image. Nor can it shoot 8K video or make you dinner. It's an awesome mirrorless MF camera is what it is. For goodness sake don't buy it if you don't like it.
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does it have eye-AF/Face Detection ? like some lowly cheap dSLMs (may be even cell phones now) can focus on left eye, right eye, nearest eye or shoot when smile detected or find the proper face in the group ...
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1618/26663498522_1d5c2eb940_c.jpg)
Thank you for that insight. I will just stop making portraits now because clearly, my 1 point AF system is useless and I can only make portraits if the camera has face, eye and ass detection.
This is not a perfect camera. I have made my (very personal) disappointment very clear early on. But that doesn't take away from the fact that it it still a spanking good, well thought out product that will do a phenomenal job for those who actually know how to use their tools. For once, let this spec sheet regurgitation go.
As a Phamiya user, I am really happy that Hasselblad is stepping up andto the Danes and changing the rulebook. This is a great shot in the arm for the industry. The usual suspects who do not shoot MF, but are here for argument's sake will of course be not satisfied, but please understand that you are a (very) vocal minority.
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(https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1618/26663498522_1d5c2eb940_c.jpg)
Thank you for that insight. I will just stop making portraits now because clearly, my 1 point AF system is useless and I can only make portraits if the camera has face, eye and ass detection.
This is not a perfect camera. I have made my (very personal) disappointment very clear early on. But that doesn't take away from the fact that it it still a spanking good, well thought out product that will do a phenomenal job for those who actually know how to use their tools. For once, let this spec sheet regurgitation go.
As a Phamiya user, I am really happy that Hasselblad is stepping up andto the Danes and changing the rulebook. This is a great shot in the arm for the industry. The usual suspects who do not shoot MF, but are here for argument's sake will of course be not satisfied, but please understand that you are a (very) vocal minority.
Exactly! (Nice image BTW)
That very vocal minority dedicates themselves to sow discord in this an other forums. It is quite sad. Even though their info is a lot of times right they are wrong with their (lack of) communication skills and come across like naggy chronically unhappy and unsatisfied folk. They focus on what the product does not have rather than what it offers.
The X1D offers access to the extensive H lens line and Medium Format look and quality in an extremely light and compact body. That is awesome. Could it be better? Of course.
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I was so hoping this would be my ticket back into MFD after a two year break however this simply looks like a camera designed to be a first rather that it actually being a great camera. Designed not to step on the toes of the H6 and missing so many great features that make cameras like the Sony A7 so much more iconic tools.
Seems like HB's view of mirrorless is one of compromise rather than revolutionise.
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No and it can't put emoji's not the image. Nor can it shoot 8K video or make you dinner.It's an awesome mirrorless MF camera is what it is. For goodness sake don't buy it if you don't like it.
+1.......
Victor
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I was so hoping this would be my ticket back into MFD after a two year break however this simply looks like a camera designed to be a first rather that it actually being a great camera. Designed not to step on the toes of the H6 and missing so many great features that make cameras like the Sony A7 so much more iconic tools.
Seems like HB's view of mirrorless is one of compromise rather than revolutionise.
All mirrorless cameras are a compromise IMHO, even the latest generations from Sony. This is the first mirrorless medium format camera from a small company. Is it perfect? No. Is it cool? Yes. Let's hope it sells well and that Hasselblad can further develop this platform.
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As usual, a very nice blog / article from Ming Thein.
https://blog.mingthein.com/2016/06/22/announcing-the-hasselblad-x1d-50c/
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So are we getting a firmware update that unlocks ISO 12,800 and 25,600 on the existing -50c products?
Just checked, and the H6D-50c is only going to ISO 6400 - will this be updated or is the higher ISO only in the X1D??
http://www.hasselblad.com/h6-system/h6d-50c/
Keep in mind that Pentax 645z has the same chip and does ISO 204,800. Will Phase unlock higher ISOs on the IQx50 backs?
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So are we getting a firmware update that unlocks ISO 12,800 and 25,600 on the existing -50c products?
Just checked, and the H6D-50c is only going to ISO 6400 - will this be updated or is the higher ISO only in the X1D??
http://www.hasselblad.com/h6-system/h6d-50c/
Keep in mind that Pentax 645z has the same chip and does ISO 204,800. Will Phase unlock higher ISOs on the IQx50 backs?
no matter, it is just an instruction to the raw processor
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Seems like HB's view of mirrorless is one of compromise rather than revolutionise.
I would say their view is of simplicity rather than swiss army knife feature fest.
If you like the later consumer electronics from the big Japanese manufacturers will always win.
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So are we getting a firmware update that unlocks ISO 12,800 and 25,600 on the existing -50c products?
Why?
Just checked, and the H6D-50c is only going to ISO 6400 - will this be updated or is the higher ISO only in the X1D??http://www.hasselblad.com/h6-system/h6d-50c/
Looks like a good range if you want some quality.
Keep in mind that Pentax 645z has the same chip and does ISO 204,800.
And the resulting 'quality' appeals to you?
Will Phase unlock higher ISOs on the IQx50 backs?
Only if there is a genuine demand, and they can operate that sensor as a 16-bit device (like the IQ3 100mp). Anyway, one can simply underexpose and push in postprocessing, which will create a similar photon starved capture as with a high ISO setting, but now with specular highlight recovery potential.
Cheers,
Bart
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Thank you for that insight. I will just stop making portraits now because clearly, my 1 point AF system is useless and I can only make portraits if the camera has face, eye and ass detection.
synn, synn - people do pose for you here waiting to take a shot (or many shots and present the one which is suitable)... and then you want to post 1:1 pixel sized crop so that we can see that iris is in focus and everything else if hitting outside DOF... your nice picture is just a nice picture, but irrelevant to why eye-AF exists.
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I've asked to my fave shop and I've been told I could get the X1D-50c + 45mm for 7999€ incl. taxes (22% here in Italy).
As much as they like to give me discounts, I know they still have to keep margins high so you might get lower prices as well. Considering the rather low volume of MF gear, resellers might be more interested in making sales at low profits rather than losing customers.
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Why?
Looks like a good range if you want some quality.
And the resulting 'quality' appeals to you?
Only if there is a genuine demand, and they can operate that sensor as a 16-bit device (like the IQ3 100mp). Anyway, one can simply underexpose and push in postprocessing, which will create a similar photon starved capture as with a high ISO setting, but now with specular highlight recovery potential.
Cheers,
Bart
Actually, the reasons come down to marketing - Hass can treat 12k/25k as H1/H2 and make it so you have to enable them, but really, to have the same chip with different spec's is asking for communication problems. Yes, they're noisy, grainy, color being off, etc. We've known from the Pentax the ability was there, even video, just a business decision to limit it.
The reason for the higher ISOs as a setting rather than a mental calculation has to do with the meter - If you shoot it at -1 or -2 intending to pull up in post, the highlight warning and the image preview on the screen won't be accurate. By shooting at the higher ISO setting and at 0 your preview will be closer to what the final image will be, quality being ignored.
-Joe
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Medium format has always had different spec for the same chip, it was even "worse" in the CCD days, as the surrounding electronics was so important. If I understand things correctly the surrounding electronics has much less impact with CMOS, but still not zero. So I think it may be a hardware improvement that has caused the X1D provide higher ISOs.
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synn, synn - people do pose for you here waiting to take a shot (or many shots and present the one which is suitable)... and then you want to post 1:1 pixel sized crop so that we can see that iris is in focus and everything else if hitting outside DOF... your nice picture is just a nice picture, but irrelevant to why eye-AF exists.
Coming from a person with zero pictures to his name, it means very little.
While you look at 1:1 crops of pictures other people make and huff and puff, I'll be happy making images that make my clients and me happy.
Keep working that keyboard though...
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Actually, the reasons come down to marketing - Hass can treat 12k/25k as H1/H2 and make it so you have to enable them, but really, to have the same chip with different spec's is asking for communication problems. Yes, they're noisy, grainy, color being off, etc. We've known from the Pentax the ability was there, even video, just a business decision to limit it.
That doesn't explain why you seem to want a Higher ISO. Hasselblad are likely to be capable of handling their own marketing.
The reason for the higher ISOs as a setting rather than a mental calculation has to do with the meter - If you shoot it at -1 or -2 intending to pull up in post, the highlight warning and the image preview on the screen won't be accurate. By shooting at the higher ISO setting and at 0 your preview will be closer to what the final image will be, quality being ignored.
Quality ignored, by underexposing (using a virtual high ISO and shorter exposure time) the highlights will already be protected.
Cheers,
Bart
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Medium format has always had different spec for the same chip, it was even "worse" in the CCD days, as the surrounding electronics was so important. If I understand things correctly the surrounding electronics has much less impact with CMOS, but still not zero. So I think it may be a hardware improvement that has caused the X1D provide higher ISOs.
Afaik zero unless outside electronic noise contaminates the chip's internal working - the chip output is digital; however various integration parameters may be adjustable, and of course heat dissipation from the device will vary a lot with the way the chip is embedded in the camera. Heat does affct high ISO performance substantially.
Edmund
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I've asked to my fave shop and I've been told I could get the X1D-50c + 45mm for 7999€ incl. taxes (22% here in Italy).
As much as they like to give me discounts, I know they still have to keep margins high so you might get lower prices as well. Considering the rather low volume of MF gear, resellers might be more interested in making sales at low profits rather than losing customers.
Wow, that's a discount of nearly 4.000 EUR.
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Some more info is coming through from Goteborg:
Finally, the early prototype only had one central AF point, with a Hasselblad representative telling me that more selectable points will be available on the shipping camera.
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Wow, that's a discount of nearly 4.000 EUR.
I should probably ask for pricing on a H5D-50c Wifi as well. I must say I have spent quite a bit of money with them, besides knowing them personally for years, so your mileage may vary.
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I should probably ask for pricing on a H5D-50c Wifi as well. I must say I have spent quite a bit of money with them, besides knowing them personally for years, so your mileage may vary.
I am quite sure that I won't get that kind of percentage anywhere :-[. What puzzles me is the kind of margin dealers have obviously even with this camera (assuming they still gain something selling the X1D to you)
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They may have to reprice this camera in Euro and Pounds Sterling prior to intro after what's happening to those currencies today, I doubt they will rebound to previous levels for some time... Either that or drop the US price... but that's probably less likely.
Otherwise you could just buy one in Europe, get the VAT back and save significantly on US prices.
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I don't think margins are that high for those cameras. My shop gets them from a huge national retailer at good prices, but on bodies and lenses they probably get less than 10% net margin to work with.
They recently had huge issues with the official Nikon distributor for Italy (NITAL). They were getting net margins below 4% mostly for non-business related reasons, so now they sell gray market Nikon bodies with third party extended warranties. I also don't think they will be able to keep that offer for long after what happened, but the high end camera market is so small and targeted that it might not change much even with weaker currencies.
Olympus is the one giving the best margins (on some models over 35% net), with Canon being a close second.
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Ah, prices.
I used to have a very good and knowledgeable local dealer perhaps two hundred yards away from my studio. He sold Nikon, Leica and Hasselblad amongst other brands, and really knew his cameras and lenses.
One day, I walked in to buy something and he told me he was sorry, he couldn't sell it to me: Hasselblad and he had parted company because he was unable to source from Hasselblad at the prices the bigger London dealerships could sell to the public.
There is something more than a little smelly in relationships where dealer A can buy the same product from the maker at a lower price than can dealer B. Smelly, and a bit stupid: both dealers are in a position to sell the same product, and if the larger dealer can sell more cheaply due to his internal efficiency controls, great, but no manufacturer should be in the position to play kingmaker, and effectively decide which dealers will prosper and which die. Stupid, yes, because that product would have sold anyway, and therefore the prejudiced dealer/maker relationship has only served to reduce the maker's profit margin and the possible outlet opportunities.
For the buyer, it means fewer local shops hold anything - if they even exist - mine vanished. This was all years before the Internet; such madness, taken as the norm today, is not really a product of Internet shopping changes, it's a product of stupidity, fear, greed and semi-thuggery that started a long time ago.
Some say the buyer benefits; I don't think so. If anything, he becomes victim of the shrinking value of everything to all the participants on the way to the final sale. Maybe this is why the customer has also become the unwitting QC department post the purchase event. Stretch anything too thinly and it'll snap, one way or the other.
Rob
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That's almost what is going on with NITAL here (they also carry other stuff like Lowepro, Lexar, Epson). They do some really stupid games with smaller shops, in that one orders a small number of cameras but receives more than he ordered and is forced to pay it all to not lose the dealership for official products of the covered brands. They don't care about customers or final sales, they just want to sell stuff and they probably found out it's far easier to make money that way.
The other part of this idiotic act is that my particular shop, despite the competent people in it, isn't much loved by the regional representative for NITAL. That means not only worse prices, but complete lack of marketing material or any useful info to actually sell the products. Sometimes they managed to stick it to NITAL and their little games, like one time they had 30 Nikon 1 models delivered that they never even wanted in the first place, but when it happens to one body or lens, or even backpacks, memory cards, etc they usually keep it if it's stuff that can be sold.
If I wanted to just save money I could buy anything online in the EU, since Italian prices tend to be extremely inflated, but losing the support of a good local shop would be a pretty big loss for me. I like having someone that can handle any issue I might have with my gear, show me new stuff, even give it for free for a spin. I like the human touch in all that, and that I can much more easily form my own opinion on a product without having to trust online reviews.