Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Theodoros on May 17, 2016, 03:00:12 pm
-
I received that on my mail:
"Purchase the H6D-50c now and trade-up to the H6D-100c for the difference in price! ...offer is valid until October 31st!"
Well... it looked that H6D-50c will eventually end up priced same as the H5D-50c is currently priced, but I never thought they would do it right from the begging! I guess those who are targeting an H5D-50c for the following months will have a choice... Either buy a new a H5D-50 or a (mint) condition H6D-50... I wonder what the offer will be for those that will directly order an H6D-100... shouldn't they prized for leaving the H6D-50 in the box for Hasselblad to re-sell? ;D
-
The 100 is not ready for release, maybe.
Edmund
I received that on my mail:
"Purchase the H6D-50c now and trade-up to the H6D-100c for the difference in price! ...offer is valid until October 31st!"
Well... it looked that H6D-50c will eventually end up priced same as the H5D-50c is currently priced, but I never thought they would do it right from the begging! I guess those who are targeting an H5D-50c for the following months will have a choice... Either buy a new a H5D-50 or a (mint) condition H6D-50... I wonder what the offer will be for those that will directly order an H6D-100... shouldn't they prized for leaving the H6D-50 in the box for Hasselblad to re-sell? ;D
-
Or just no high demand... ;)
Christopher Hauser
[email protected]
-
Here is exact mail content:
"The H6D has become an instant success with orders received worldwide and has far exceeded our expectations. The engaging media coverage and encouraging comments from our current and new users has been phenomenal!
Unfortunately due to the recent devastating earthquakes in Kumamoto, Japan, the suppliers of some components, including the 100MP sensor, have been affected.
To get the H6D into the hands of eager customers Hasselblad are offering a fantastic H6D-50c Trade-Up promotion.
Purchase the all new H6D-50c at the standard price and you will have the option to trade-up that camera to the H6D-100c for the difference in the recommended sales price (MRSP).
The H6D has a brand new electronic platform boasting super-fast image processing and faster shooting rates that can be sustained for longer than ever before. The 100MP option, delivers unmatched image quality and the ability to resolve the finest detail with all our HC & HCD lenses.
This unique offer of getting started with our all new H6D-50c will be valid until 31st October 2016."
-
smart move on Hasselblad's part. They get their new camera into people's hands now instead of having them wait until the 100mp back is available. This means their plant facilities aren't sitting idle and/or they are sitting on bodies that are getting their costs back.
-
So it does look like not only phase was effected after all. Strange that it can be so. I really believed it all to be just great marketing by phase to get their CCD backs cleared. :-p
Christopher Hauser
[email protected]
-
I received that on my mail:
"Purchase the H6D-50c now and trade-up to the H6D-100c for the difference in price! ...offer is valid until October 31st!"
Well... it looked that H6D-50c will eventually end up priced same as the H5D-50c is currently priced, but I never thought they would do it right from the begging! I guess those who are targeting an H5D-50c for the following months will have a choice... Either buy a new a H5D-50 or a (mint) condition H6D-50... I wonder what the offer will be for those that will directly order an H6D-100... shouldn't they prized for leaving the H6D-50 in the box for Hasselblad to re-sell? ;D
I am sorry, aren't you misunderstanding their offer?
This isn't about the H5D-50c, it is about the H6D50c.
Cheers,
Bernard
-
From a representative: "Hasselblad has a stock of 50 mpix cmos chips but cannot get the 100 mpix chips delivered as planned because of the earthquake."
-
According to Sony, production of imaging sensors will be back to full capacity by the 21st of May... This is a 5 weeks time gap from the earthquakes happening. http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/good-news-sony-wafer-sensor-production-will-resume-on-may-21/
It is therefore reasonable to assume that the maximum delay that may occur in supplies for the 100mp sensor won't exceed 6 weeks of time... But Hasselblad's offer is until October the 31st. This means that the offer will be active by the time that the H6D-100 production starts next month (Hasselblad hasn't made any announcement that the release scedule of the H6D-100 will be postponed) and it will last well until after Photokina.
-
The fact that they restart doesn't mean they will get the yield.
According to Sony, production of imaging sensors will be back to full capacity by the 21st of May... This is a 5 weeks time gap from the earthquakes happening. http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/good-news-sony-wafer-sensor-production-will-resume-on-may-21/
It is therefore reasonable to assume that the maximum delay that may occur in supplies for the 100mp sensor won't exceed 6 weeks of time... But Hasselblad's offer is until October the 31st. This means that the offer will be active by the time that the H6D-100 production starts next month (Hasselblad hasn't made any announcement that the release scedule of the H6D-100 will be postponed) and it will last well until after Photokina.
-
The fact that they restart doesn't mean they will get the yield.
Of course it doesn't, it doesn't mean the opposite either though... Never the less, Hasselblad's offering means that plenty of used 6HD-50c will be soon available in the market at prices that will be very close to the H5D-50c offering... This, may not cause a financial loss to Hasselblad (as the price of used H6D-50 will be similar to a new one if the customer takes advantage of the trade in offerings) but it does mean that they will attract even more customers with the mint-used H6D-50s and additionally they'll be selling two new H6D cameras (one 100c and another 50c) for many of the H6D-100 orders, as well as maximize the H6D-100 sales.
-
Of course it doesn't, it doesn't mean the opposite either though... Never the less, Hasselblad's offering means that plenty of used 6HD-50c will be soon available in the market at prices that will be very close to the H5D-50c offering... This, may not cause a financial loss to Hasselblad (as the price of used H6D-50 will be similar to a new one if the customer takes advantage of the trade in offerings) but it does mean that they will attract even more customers with the mint-used H6D-50s and additionally they'll be selling two new H6D cameras (one 100c and another 50c) for many of the H6D-100 orders, as well as maximize the H6D-100 sales.
assuming the 50s get upgraded. But:
- customers may decide they hate the Cmos Sony look.
- customers may find the 50c so good they don't want to let it out of their claws.
- Sony may release a 72mp stills/video hybrid A9 for $5K at Photokina, killing the market for the 50c dead, be it Phase or Hassy. Which is why the next 4 months may be a dumpfest for every brand with the 50 chip including Pentax.
Edmund
-
There is not need for conspiracy theories. Hasselblad can't deliver the H6D-100s for lack of sensors. The sensors will probably not be available until july-august. Hasselblad does not want to lose customers, so they have this offer instead.
When they'll get the H6D-50s back, they can decide to sell them second-hand or use the parts to remanufacture new cameras. I don't think it will be a problem for them.
-
Yes, except here the 50 may effectively be a dead product in 3 months, and the 100 is not exactly ready for prime time. Last not least, Sony may need the production lines for its new pro camera sensors, so the 100Mp may go to the back of the line until they have their own production batch finished.
If Hassy were smarter they would lower the price of the 50 to $8K right now, and get some cash and new customers while they regroup. There is going to be blood in the water at Photokina with new releases from Sony and Pentax, and few will be buying over the summer.
Historically speaking, MF backs with fewer pixels than the 35mm top have sold badly.
Edmund
There is not need for conspiracy theories. Hasselblad can't deliver the H6D-100s for lack of sensors. The sensors will probably not be available until july-august. Hasselblad does not want to lose customers, so they have this offer instead.
When they'll get the H6D-50s back, they can decide to sell them second-hand or use the parts to remanufacture new cameras. I don't think it will be a problem for them.
-
There is not need for conspiracy theories. Hasselblad can't deliver the H6D-100s for lack of sensors. The sensors will probably not be available until july-august. Hasselblad does not want to lose customers, so they have this offer instead.
When they'll get the H6D-50s back, they can decide to sell them second-hand or use the parts to remanufacture new cameras. I don't think it will be a problem for them.
There is no "conspiracy theory" described here... To the contradict, they keep surprising the market by improving their products appeal all the time... Past practices seem to be over with Hasselblad. I wish competition will make an example out of it.
-
I received that on my mail:
"Purchase the H6D-50c now and trade-up to the H6D-100c for the difference in price! ...offer is valid until October 31st!"
Well... it looked that H6D-50c will eventually end up priced same as the H5D-50c is currently priced, but I never thought they would do it right from the begging! I guess those who are targeting an H5D-50c for the following months will have a choice... Either buy a new a H5D-50 or a (mint) condition H6D-50... I wonder what the offer will be for those that will directly order an H6D-100... shouldn't they prized for leaving the H6D-50 in the box for Hasselblad to re-sell? ;D
It seems that Sony is about to restart sensor production:http://www.digitaltrends.com/photography/sony-sensor-production-resume/
I believe that is a combination of two factors:
1) Japan Earthquake
2) The H6D-100 to H6D-50 radio is off out Hasselblad estimations.
From my readings Hasselblad is very confident about the quality of the H6D and H5D-50 series. They want people to try it.
Best regards
-
Or just no high demand... ;)
Christopher Hauser
[email protected]
Or maybe we have a big earthquake in some relevant country?
-
I don't find this offer attractive at all, as you have to buy the H6D 50c for the (exaggerated) normal price and not for the interesting upgrade price (buy an old H3D and trade it in and save 5.000 EUR or so).
Again the price differential to the 100c will be calculated at the normal price. Much more inter siting to buy the 100c with the upgrade option trading in another camera.
Sure, the expectation to find cheap H6D 50c later on the used market may be something to observe.
-
Yes, except here the 50 may effectively be a dead product in 3 months, and the 100 is not exactly ready for prime time. Last not least, Sony may need the production lines for its new pro camera sensors, so the 100Mp may go to the back of the line until they have their own production batch finished.
If Hassy were smarter they would lower the price of the 50 to $8K right now, and get some cash and new customers while they regroup. There is going to be blood in the water at Photokina with new releases from Sony and Pentax, and few will be buying over the summer.
Historically speaking, MF backs with fewer pixels than the 35mm top have sold badly.
Edmund
I totally disagree with your POV... The megapixel war seems to be long over, resolution is about the last thing that concerns photographers that consume top end products, the past experience about high resolution DSLRs affecting negatively MF sales, has more to do with CCD vs. Cmos and the shortcomings related with CCD, not with resolution as such... There is no evidence that Canon's 5DS or Sony's α7RII success had any negative impact for MF sales, nor that people want (even) higher resolution offerings than they are offered today.
To the contradict, Hollywood's recent direction for MF size sensors over the past years, has widely created a mass opinion that "sensor size matters" and Hasselblad's decision to promote the convergence of technology as a prime factor in their H6D introduction, seems to be in line with the widely spread culture.
Don't forget Hasselblad's claim about "phenomenal market appreciation" for the H6D release... and yet they come up with a more attractive proposal. It seems to me that their aim is to "clean the cards off the table" with respect to competition... they don't seem to worry at all about what the case is with higher offerings from smaller formats...
If you remember the chairman's interviews, he thinks of the higher end FF Dslr market as being beneficial for the MF market the more it develops, it is a very sensible conclusion as like he said "one can then really appreciate the quality behind advancing to MF"... What is traditional with image areas in photography, is that "size does matter" and this can't change, whatever problem has caused smaller image areas to replace larger ones for being the "top-end" in the past, has to do more with the "quality with respect to investment needed" ratio being poor than the quality advancement itself. If the investment is kept reasonable, larger image areas can even expand their market (IMO).
-
I don't find this offer attractive at all, as you have to buy the H6D 50c for the (exaggerated) normal price and not for the interesting upgrade price (buy an old H3D and trade it in and save 5.000 EUR or so).
Again the price differential to the 100c will be calculated at the normal price. Much more inter siting to buy the 100c with the upgrade option trading in another camera.
Sure, the expectation to find cheap H6D 50c later on the used market may be something to observe.
But they didn't replace the old policy with a new one... It's an alternative. Think if one can't decide if 50c is enough for him or if he really wants an 100c instead... Then, there are the respective Phase One CCD offerings where (to their usual practice) they have renamed all CCD backs (of which the CCD sensors are no longer in production - hence there will be no more backs made) to factory refurbished/promo/rental and are trying to find their way to the market through POA pricing... By Hasselblad offering this, they have two gains over P1 sales:
1. To attract the customers that are offered a CCD back from P1 instead of the 100MP Cmos one they want and... 2. To offer them a direct access to the 100MP Sony CMos sensor (which they wanted in the first place) at a (much better) price that is known to the customer without asking for a down-payment and then a position in a waiting list...
-
But they didn't replace the old policy with a new one... It's an alternative. Think if one can't decide if 50c is enough for him or if he really wants an 100c instead... Then, there are the respective Phase One CCD offerings where (to their usual practice) they have renamed all CCD backs (of which the CCD sensors are no longer in production - hence there will be no more backs made) to factory refurbished/promo/rental and are trying to find their way to the market through POA pricing... By Hasselblad offering this, they have two gains over P1 sales:
1. To attract the customers that are offered a CCD back from P1 instead of the 100MP Cmos one they want and... 2. To offer them a direct access to the 100MP Sony CMos sensor (which they wanted in the first place) at a (much better) price that is known to the customer without asking for a down-payment and then a position in a waiting list...
*sigh*
Theodoros... so many factual errors it's hard to know where to begin. But let me simply ask this... where you do you get your information about Phase One from?? It seems you honestly and firmly believe the things you say, but it's hard to understand how someone could be so confident of misinformation.
-
*sigh*
Theodoros... so many factual errors it's hard to know where to begin. But let me simply ask this... where you do you get your information about Phase One from?? It seems you honestly and firmly believe the things you say, but it's hard to understand how someone could be so confident of misinformation.
What is the misinforming part Doug? Is it that CCD back sensors aren't made anymore and thus P1 is trying to get rid of their stock of those backs? Are the sensors still made? Are there more CCD backs coming after stock is over?
-
The H6D-50c has a few advantages over the H5D-50c, namely the screen, the faster shutter speeds with the new lenses, and a bunch of minor details that may or may not apply to you. CFast + SD (love it), USB3 (eh), and so on. This allows Hasselblad to get folks off the fence, and if they don't upgrade to the 100c, there's a line of folks behind them. The 50c chip has been tuned and the yield has to have gone up enough that Sony just keeps putting them out at a good profit.
Personally, the promotion is all about selling new glass, and since you need a new body to take advantage of the shutter speed, here's how to get in on it. There is going to be a lot of CPO gear the second half of the year, so keep an eye out.
I love my CCD camera, and I hope I'll never have to part with her. There are times that the CCD is the technically correct answer when using a medium format back (wide angle technical/view camera with lots of movement and old glass). I love the IQ380, to push the sensor so long after some folks have given it up for retirement. I kind of wish Phase would do an Acromatic 80, mostly because I want to do some concert photography at ISO1600, and without the bayer filter.
-
Yes, except here the 50 may effectively be a dead product in 3 months, and the 100 is not exactly ready for prime time.
What is this strange idea that the 50 would be a dead product in 3 months? Canon just issued a 50 mpix camera, do you really expect them to top that in 3 months? Same with Sony: they are selling the A7RII like hot cakes, do you really expect them to double the amount of pixels?
If Hassy were smarter they would lower the price of the 50 to $8K right now, and get some cash and new customers while they regroup. There is going to be blood in the water at Photokina with new releases from Sony and Pentax, and few will be buying over the summer.
Hasselblad is probably both smarter and better informed than you and me. I am pretty confident that they have the complete list of products that will be presented at Photokina 2016, just like everyone else.
-
I think Theo may be putting a painful hard nugget of truth in someone's shoe
What is the misinforming part Doug? Is it that CCD back sensors aren't made anymore and thus P1 is trying to get rid of their stock of those backs? Are the sensors still made? Are there more CCD backs coming after stock is over?
-
....I am pretty confident that they have the complete list of products that will be presented at Photokina 2016, just like everyone else....
"lots of new products"... (according to Mr. Oosting).... and they seem to create quite and impact with each new announcement or marketing decision they come up with... Surely competition has to react soon, other wise it may be late for them when the "lots of new products" appear... A few months ago Leica's decision to redesign the "S" pricing policy was pleasantly received by the market... but what if the new "ently level" Leica kind DSLR that Mr Oosting (practically) announced in his later interview is ready by Photokina? If nothing else, it will be of 4:3 image ratio... and then P1 lost all the advantages they had only within a year (exclusive to them sensor, exposure+, 1hr exposures, higher flash sync...) and are left with the disadvantage of their pricing policy and the bitter they created within their older customers by "closing" the access of these customers to the new platform...
-
Interesting times. I have always been a hasselblad fan - since i bought a used 503 in 1992 and then a selection of V lenses to go with it. Then in 2007 I bought a second hand h3d-39 which has done me pretty well for the last 9 years but is now getting flaky and a bit unreliable (but with the adapter I can use it with my V lenses and the HC 80mm and 50mm which I eventually bought). So just before the H6D launch I thought about upgrading to an H5D-50c. However my H3D is apparently worth no more than about £1k in part exchange from the Pro Centre in London but worth over £5k as a trade in for a new H6D-50c (and given that my existing camera is slightly flaky I wouldn't look to sell it on privately). So I could buy a new H6D for around £15K including VAT or I could take whatever I am offered for my H3D and buy a new H5D-50c for about £12K including VAT. Or I could wait for second hand H5Ds to come onto the market or I could wait for exchanged H6Ds to come onto the market. Or I could wait and see if Hasselblad's much rumoured new middle range offering meets my requirements or if Sony introduce something appealing - a lot of my work recently has been with an A7ii which is pretty good but it is not what I really want. But then again Sony might put out something in September that would appeal.
But then again I do a lot of work on my own and on various streets and locations around the world. Do I really want to walk around with a £12k+ camera plus lenses? I am in the fortunate position of being able to afford, justify and rationalise an upgrade. But given the current state of affairs (by which I include rumours of both a new Sony camera and something else from Hasselblad) what to do? The only sensible answer to that question is wait and see what happens over the next few months. But having spent an hour with an H6D-50c the other day there is a big emotional pull to go with it - it really is what I could see myself living with.
Given the rumours in the market place, the possibility of second hand Hasselblads coming onto the market between now and after September, the only sensible solution is to wait and see what happens and then curse oneself for not making the right decision.
But as I say - interesting times and a lot of calculations as to the financial implications of those times.
-
One more factor to these decisions is the coming ability of the new 35mm cams to do handheld multishot, in effect getting more than 100Mp handheld stabilised Bayer-free resolution. This will certainly upend the art repro market.
Interesting times. I have always been a hasselblad fan - since i bought a used 503 in 1992 and then a selection of V lenses to go with it. Then in 2007 I bought a second hand h3d-39 which has done me pretty well for the last 9 years but is now getting flaky and a bit unreliable (but with the adapter I can use it with my V lenses and the HC 80mm and 50mm which I eventually bought). So just before the H6D launch I thought about upgrading to an H5D-50c. However my H3D is apparently worth no more than about £1k in part exchange from the Pro Centre in London but worth over £5k as a trade in for a new H6D-50c (and given that my existing camera is slightly flaky I wouldn't look to sell it on privately). So I could buy a new H6D for around £15K including VAT or I could take whatever I am offered for my H3D and buy a new H5D-50c for about £12K including VAT. Or I could wait for second hand H5Ds to come onto the market or I could wait for exchanged H6Ds to come onto the market. Or I could wait and see if Hasselblad's much rumoured new middle range offering meets my requirements or if Sony introduce something appealing - a lot of my work recently has been with an A7ii which is pretty good but it is not what I really want. But then again Sony might put out something in September that would appeal.
But then again I do a lot of work on my own and on various streets and locations around the world. Do I really want to walk around with a £12k+ camera plus lenses? I am in the fortunate position of being able to afford, justify and rationalise an upgrade. But given the current state of affairs (by which I include rumours of both a new Sony camera and something else from Hasselblad) what to do? The only sensible answer to that question is wait and see what happens over the next few months. But having spent an hour with an H6D-50c the other day there is a big emotional pull to go with it - it really is what I could see myself living with.
Given the rumours in the market place, the possibility of second hand Hasselblads coming onto the market between now and after September, the only sensible solution is to wait and see what happens and then curse oneself for not making the right decision.
But as I say - interesting times and a lot of calculations as to the financial implications of those times.
-
One more factor to these decisions is the coming ability of the new 35mm cams to do handheld multishot, in effect getting more than 100Mp handheld stabilised Bayer-free resolution. This will certainly upend the art repro market.
Totally agree, if you have not already, look at the 3200 and 6400 on the Pentax K1 with the multishot. Pentax has found a way to not only take advantage of the resolution but the additional light, to get ISO 6400 that is similar to ISO 200. Leaves a lot more range to the photographer for sure.
Paul C
-
Then in 2007 I bought a second hand h3d-39 which has done me pretty well for the last 9 years but is now getting flaky and a bit unreliable
It may be worth trying to clean the contacts of your camera: back, lens, battery and viewfinder. I has been known to do wonders to "flaky" hasselblads.
-
One more factor to these decisions is the coming ability of the new 35mm cams to do handheld multishot, in effect getting more than 100Mp handheld stabilised Bayer-free resolution. This will certainly upend the art repro market.
Improvement of (true color) multishot functioning over traditional Bayer pattern captures is certainly phenomenal. However, the art repro market will hardly be affected by cameras like the K1... Surely K1's shift pixel mode will have one or two (or three, or more) things to teach shingle shot MFDBs for product photography or other stills, but given the cost of a S/H Sinarback 54H, its much higher Niquist limit and the dedicated software that needs to be used for (dead) accurate color calibration, art repro market is far for being the field where K1 might excel... Still, it will be a far better solution than any single shot MFDB that many (ignorants) suggest that might be used for the job... ;)
As for "hand held multishot", one may forget it on the spot... The feature is clearly there on the K1 for landscapers as to retain detail on the real still subjects in the compensation and overcome things like leaves, or dust, or clouds (or the sun in sunsets) moving during the capture... I can see Bernard changing his Nikon for a Pentax K1... ;)
-
I can see Bernard changing his Nikon for a Pentax K1... ;)
It is for sure an appealing camera, but no short term plan to move to Pentax here. ;)
I would be interested if the 645X with the 100mp medium format sensor had this capability built-in though!
Cheers,
Bernard
-
It is for sure an appealing camera, but no short term plan to move to Pentax here. ;)
I would be interested if the 645X with the 100mp medium format sensor had this capability built-in though!
Cheers,
Bernard
I doubt such a thing as P645X will ever exist... (due to several reasons including the mounting distance of the P645 body). But anyway, the least I would desire would be for this discussion to turn to (yet another) rumor/wishlist/prediction/cross fingers thread...