Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Colour Management => Topic started by: bjanes on May 08, 2016, 09:15:07 am
-
The Washington Post (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/in-sight/wp/2016/04/19/what-russia-looked-like-before-1914-in-color/?hpid=hp_no-name_photo-story-d%3Ahomepage%2Fstory) has published some remarkable color photos taken 100 years ago by a Russian photographer who took composites with 3 color filters. This was well before the era of color management, profiling, and Bayer color arrays, but the results are nonetheless impressive.
Bill
-
Yes, there is a published book on this work and has been aired on BBC television (I think it was) at some time within the past several years. It's quite remarkable and worth bringing to peoples' attention. We don't often think back to the roots of colour photography and the lengths to which the early developers went for making it happen. Round about the same time Prokudin-Gorskii was making those photos, the Lumiere brothers invented the autochrome process, said to be the first reproduction of colour photographs on paper from a glass plate camera. Looking at those prints provides perspective on just how amazingly far technological progress has taken us.
-
I have posted this link on LuLa several years before. It is quite fascinating both photographically and historically. The Wonderful World of Albert Kahn.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMiLWi0-Tsk
Possibly as an adjunct we also have recent celebrations of Cinco de Mayo and Anzac Day. The French have an interesting history of which I know little about but there are many Australian bodies buried in France to attest that fact.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinco_de_Mayo
Cheers,
-
Yes Tom, and the book by David Okuefuna "The Dawn of the Color Photograph" covering the Kahn archives (published by Princeton University Press) is a treasure.
-
I have posted this link on LuLa several years before. It is quite fascinating both photographically and historically. The Wonderful World of Albert Kahn.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMiLWi0-Tsk
Possibly as an adjunct we also have recent celebrations of Cinco de Mayo and Anzac Day. The French have an interesting history of which I know little about but there are many Australian bodies buried in France to attest that fact.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinco_de_Mayo
Cheers,
I looked at the Kahn photographs in the BBC video. However, they are not technically nearly as good as those by the Russian with respect to color quality and sharpness, Sergei Mikhailovich Prokudin-Gorskii. Are we talking about the same images?
Bill
-
Honestly, talking about the technical quality of 100 year old photographs in a video posted on YouTube.
I like LuLa, but it really attracts the technical photographic pedants.
Cheers,
-
I looked at the Kahn photographs in the BBC video. However, they are not technically nearly as good as those by the Russian with respect to color quality and sharpness, Sergei Mikhailovich Prokudin-Gorskii. Are we talking about the same images?
Bill
Absolutely not. Different technologies with different objectives. Prokudin-Gorski produced colour transparencies on glass viewed using a projector, whereas the Autochrome process invented by the Lumiere Brothers makes prints on a single glass substrate using potato flour as the suspension for the light sensitive chemistry. So they can't be compared; perhaps somewhat akin to the differences one perceives between slides and prints these days?
(Edited for technical correction on the substrate)
-
Honestly, talking about the technical quality of 100 year old photographs in a video posted on YouTube.
I like LuLa, but it really attracts the technical photographic pedants.
Cheers,
Firstly, there is absolutely nothing wrong with talking about the quality of historical photographs - it is part of the history of the medium; and secondly, you have no business spewing personal insults at forum participants engaging in this discussion.
That said, I would agree that the relative quality of these various outputs are best appreciated seeing the originals, but for most of us that is not possible, so we must rely on secondary interpretations and hope they are of indicative value.
-
"Firstly, there is absolutely nothing wrong with talking about the quality of historical photographs - it is part of the history of the medium; and secondly, you have no business spewing personal insults at forum participants engaging in this discussion".
Mark… You obviously didn't look at the video, my comment was not about technical quality, it was more about tribal affiliations, social upheaval, conflict, war, nationalism, all that Albert Khan was all about.
I have no idea how you have read that I have been "spewing personal insults at forum participants engaging in this discussion".
A really strange post.
Confused,
-
Well let me "de-confuse" you - when you talk about LuLa attracting "technical photographic pedants", that is insulting insofar as the word "pedant" in the English language usually has derogatory connotations. If you did not have any derogatory meaning that is fine. We can move on.
-
Well let me "de-confuse" you - when you talk about LuLa attracting "technical photographic pedants", that is insulting insofar as the word "pedant" in the English language usually has derogatory connotations. If you did not have any derogatory meaning that is fine. We can move on.
You really have to view the video, I will accept your apology when you have done so.
Cheers,
-
Look, I don't argue with screen names and I have nothing to apologize for, nor do I need to watch videos at your behest; I have more important things to do. You can clarify what you mean by "pedant" or just let it hang for others to think what they will of you, but I'm out of this discussion.
-
Those of you who google Prokudin-Gorski are in for a treat. Thanks, Mark
-
Those of you who google Prokudin-Gorski are in for a treat. Thanks, Mark
You are welcome, but the thanks are to Bill who "re-surfaced" it! Unfortunately, the colour reproduction in the book, which I have seen, would appear to understate the originals, though one would need to see them to be sure of this, which I haven't. I believe there is a substantial collection in the Library of Congress, Washington.
-
"In 1909 the millionaire French banker and philanthropist Albert Kahn embarked on an ambitious project to create a colour photographic record of, and for, the peoples of the world. As an idealist and an internationalist, Kahn believed that he could use the new Autochrome process, the world's first user-friendly, true-colour photographic system, to promote cross-cultural peace and understanding.
Until recently, Kahn's huge collection of 72,000 Autochromes remained relatively unheard of. Now, a century after he launched his project, this photography book and the BBC TV series it accompanies are bringing these dazzling historical photos to a mass audience for the first time and putting colour into what we tend to think of as an entirely monochrome age.
Kahn sent photographers to more than 50 countries, often at crucial junctures in their history, when age-old cultures were on the brink of being changed for ever by war and the march of 20th-century globalisation. They documented in true colour the collapse of the Ottoman and Austro-Hungarian empires, the last traditional Celtic villages in Ireland, and the soldiers of the First World War. They took the earliest known colour photographs in countries as far apart as Vietnam and Brazil, Mongolia and Norway, Benin and the United States. In 1929 the Wall Street Crash forced Kahn to bring his project to an end. He died in 1940, but left behind the most important collection of early colour photographs in the world."
Albert Khan used photography to explain the world. Do I care about the quality of the 72,000 images that he had photographers produce, no. However the BBC video "The Wonderful World of Albert Khan" has changed my perception of the early 20th Century.
One lesson I learnt is based on this loosely remembered quote:
"The best way to have an argument is if you don't have the facts".
The video is fascinating, you don't have to watch it, however it does explain my point of view in a way that I expect most photographers would find fascinating.
Cheers,
-
The Autochrome process.
"Unlike ordinary black-and-white plates, the Autochrome was loaded into the camera with the bare glass side facing the lens, so that the light passed through the mosaic filter layer before reaching the emulsion. The use of an additional special orange-yellow filter in the camera was required to block ultraviolet light and restrain the effects of violet and blue light, parts of the spectrum to which the emulsion was overly sensitive. Because of the light loss due to all the filtering, Autochrome plates required much longer exposures than black-and-white plates and films, which meant that a tripod or other stand had to be used and that it was not practical to photograph moving subjects. The plate was reversal-processed into a positive transparency — that is, the plate was first developed into a negative image but not "fixed", then the silver forming the negative image was chemically removed, then the remaining silver halide was exposed to light and developed, producing a positive image".
It was an interesting technique, but yep it wasn't the equivalent to today's high iso digital equivalents. The full article is below.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autochrome_Lumi%C3%A8re (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autochrome_Lumi%C3%A8re)
-
"Prokudin-Gorsky was also acquainted with the use of Autochrome color plates, which did not require a special camera or projector. He was one of the favored few the Lumière Brothers introduced to their new product in 1906, the year before it went into commercial production.[18] Autochrome plates were expensive and not sensitive enough for casual "snapshots" with a hand-held camera, but their use was simple and in expert hands they were capable of producing excellent results. They made color photography truly practical for advanced amateurs and led some pioneering users of color separation cameras to abandon their methods as outmoded, but Prokudin-Gorsky was not won over. No Autochromes by Prokudin-Gorsky are known to survive".
So Prokudin-Gorsky and Albert Kahn's photographers both used the same process. The two differences I can see is that:
Prokudin-Gorsky appears to have acknowldged that the Autochrome proceess was poor for moving objects and he used the formal portrait techniques of the time. Albert Kahn's photographers seem to be more accepting of movement.
There seems to be a comparison of still vs video images which favours Prokudin-Gorsky.
You can see Albert Kahn's photographer images at:
http://albert-kahn.hauts-de-seine.fr/english/ (http://albert-kahn.hauts-de-seine.fr/english/)
-
Honestly, talking about the technical quality of 100 year old photographs in a video posted on YouTube.
I like LuLa, but it really attracts the technical photographic pedants.
Cheers,
I think the use of the word pedant isn't the best but I can see where you are coming from. :(
-
... remarkable color photos taken 100 years ago by a Russian photographer ...
I was fortunate enough to see many of these images at an exhibit some two years ago in Bonn, Germany. Absolutely fabulous! If ever you get the chance, do visit such an exhibition!! You won't regret it.
-
This was well before the era of color management, profiling, and Bayer color arrays, but the results are nonetheless impressive.
And you could say the same about many, many color photo's taken before say 1976 or so (Bryce Bayer's patent U.S. Patent No. 3,971,065). This has what to do with color management?
-
And you could say the same about many, many color photo's taken before say 1976 or so (Bryce Bayer's patent U.S. Patent No. 3,971,065). This has what to do with color management?
Perhaps that we overemphasize the wonders of color management. Early photographers got by without it. :)
Bill
-
Perhaps that we overemphasize the wonders of color management. Early photographers got by without it. :)
Because there were no numbers used to define colors! Color management is simply number management. Without color management, R8/B56/G79 is meaningless. With it, R8/B56/G79 in sRGB now defines a solid color.
Color management isn't at all necessary today either, if you can edit, print, edit print and run yourself into circles until you get the print (on a press; expensive, or otherwise) you desire! You can do all your editing on a grayscale display.
-
Perhaps that we overemphasize the wonders of color management. Early photographers got by without it. :)
Bill
Sure they did; but then was then and now is now. In those days the standards and expectations of automatic. inter-device, reliability and repeatability for photographic colour reproduction were not so exacting as they are nowadays. Recall the adage, all too true for technology as for other things, that supply creates its own demand.
-
Because there were no numbers used to define colors! Color management is simply number management.
Color management for film was done in the research lab using chemical processes. The art of creating a new photographic film process was to figure out how to get all the photo and chemical mechanisms balanced in such a way that a pleasing image was the result.
Appendix C of Giorgianni & Madden's "Digital Color Management, Encoding Solutions" has a good overview of this.
-
Color management for film was done in the research lab using chemical processes. The art of creating a new photographic film process was to figure out how to get all the photo and chemical mechanisms balanced in such a way that a pleasing image was the result.
Appendix C of Giorgianni & Madden's "Digital Color Management, Encoding Solutions" has a good overview of this.
I have a copy. That's interesting stuff (especially the part on why color negs are orange) but I'm not seeing much about management of color and much about how the film(s) work.
-
I seem to keep butting my head against a wall. Albert Kahn (amongst other things) commisioned the first colour photographs of America. The videos are educational, just saying…
My last comment on the subject.
Frustrated,
-
That's interesting stuff (especially the part on why color negs are orange) but I'm not seeing much about management of color and much about how the film(s) work.
Creating a 3x3 transformation matrix out of chemical and optical interaction of film layers is what I would regard as the color management of the time. It's not end user color management no.
-
Albert Kahn (amongst other things) commisioned ___the first colour photographs of America__.
not exactly
http://americanhistory.si.edu/blog/2010/01/the-1906-san-francisco-quake-in-color.html
and then Kahn was not a photographer himself
-
And yet pedants seems to be the first word that comes to mind.
Cheers,
-
And yet pedants seems to be the first word that comes to mind.
thank you for honestly acknowledging your factual errors in so eloquent way...
-
Though early attempts at color photograph started sometime in the mid 1860s as I recall with three-plates for three colors, the Autochrome by the Lumiere brothers in Paris at the start of the 20th century has a charm all its own. Imaging using R-G-B-dyed potato starch granules to make this thing work! It wasn't until the 1980s that Polaroid brought out their instant color slide work with an RGB screen on top of black-and-white positive file that this older tech evolved was revitalized just prior to the age of digital.
After autochrome came the 3-shot cameras using prisms and mainly used in the studio for color during the first half of the 20th century until chromogenic films, stat cameras and eventually PMT scanner and laser film plotters took hold in the 1970s and 1980s.
Of course the Bayer-arrayed sensors we use today are the modern version of Autochrome. Early tech evolved and cycled into our current digital photography.
What a rich history in both photography and tech you have shared with us!
-
thank you for honestly acknowledging your factual errors in so eloquent way...
I can be a pedant too. Sentences start with a capital. You seem to be missing an a. An ellipsis is a character … not three points.
Something to think about.
http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2012/02/the-dawn-of-the-color-photograph-albert-kahns-catalog-of-humanity/253583/ (http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2012/02/the-dawn-of-the-color-photograph-albert-kahns-catalog-of-humanity/253583/)
Cheers,
-
Years ago I bought this book secondhand:
http://www.amazon.com/Century-Color-Louis-Walton-Sipley/dp/B000OM05CC
Fascinating story about early color photography and the parallel development of color printing. Roughly describing the period before 1950. Early color photography inventions. Color management tuned by chemistry and standards for CMYK printing ink colors. The first color theories and color models. Not to forget the guys that made and tweaked the four color separation films. And way more.
Several pages printed with the processes described in the book. A photo of a dinner in Philadelphia with the brothers Lumière, Stieglitz, brothers Levy (halftone screening inventors), Goldensky, Yarnal Abbott, Beck of the Beck Engraving Company and more important color gurus of that period. Think what it would have been to sit at that table and listen to the conversation.
The first chapter of the book has the title "There is always a background". We shouldn't forget that.
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
January 2016 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots
-
Of course, for a better understanding of the history of colour photography one should look here (http://calvin-and-hobbes-comic-strips.blogspot.co.uk/2011/11/calvin-asks-dad-about-old-black-and.html).
-
Of course, for a better understanding of the history of colour photography one should look here (http://calvin-and-hobbes-comic-strips.blogspot.co.uk/2011/11/calvin-asks-dad-about-old-black-and.html).
Hilarious!
-
Of course, for a better understanding of the history of colour photography one should look here (http://calvin-and-hobbes-comic-strips.blogspot.co.uk/2011/11/calvin-asks-dad-about-old-black-and.html).
Someone please pass the butter. I can smell the corn.