Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: hasselbladfan on April 27, 2016, 08:35:31 am
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Extract from an interview with Hasselblad CEO Oosting (ePHOTOzine April 7, 2016):
You spoke about broadening the appeal of Hasselblad ... do you plan to release something lower down in the market?
What would fit is something aimed at the prosumer .... Part of this audience already buys into Leica and our first step would be to look at this area, prices and portability.
DID ANYBODY HEAR SOMETHING MORE ABOUT SUCH A LEICA S TYPE HASSELBLAD CAMERA?
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I'll go on record as saying I think the chances of this are slim to none.
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I'll go on record as saying I think the chances of this are slim to none.
Haselblad have a lot of marketing problems, and the biggest is they don't know who they are. Are they Ferrari-red luxury items? Are they useful tools for breadwinners? Are they sold by the mothership, or via dealers?
And now they want to go prosumer? Hey guys, this is is full-blown multiple personality disorder :)
Edmund
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Extract from an interview with Hasselblad CEO Oosting (ePHOTOzine April 7, 2016):
You spoke about broadening the appeal of Hasselblad ... do you plan to release something lower down in the market?
What would fit is something aimed at the prosumer .... Part of this audience already buys into Leica and our first step would be to look at this area, prices and portability.
DID ANYBODY HEAR SOMETHING MORE ABOUT SUCH A LEICA S TYPE HASSELBLAD CAMERA?
Actually there's more that he said, with phrases like: "Portability will be the key factor" (meaning that the camera is coming), "it will bring more people to MF" (meaning that it is entry level & it's MF) & "How and which way it will be portable, is yet to be announced" (meaning that the product is ready and only announcement remains).
Practically it's an announcement (especially as it is confirmed by the CEO of the company), my guess goes for a 33x44 sensor (so that Hasselblad uses an already existing sensor & electronics as to keep costs to the minimum), it is mirror box but without a removable MFDB and the mirror box is for OVF/sensor size up to 33x44mm (so that it is a direct alternative to the Leica-S), it has video (again like the Leica S 007) and it takes a new series of lenses, but with the same interface as the H-series so that if one plans a future update, will be able to invest on the H lenses and use them via an adapter... (again like the Leica -S). I don't see anything else that would keep in line with the CEO's own statements about the specifications of the product... My direct bet would go for a reframed H6D-50 priced around 12K Euros (inc. VAT)... in a few months we will know, but all sines (out of the CEO's own words) lead to that being the most possible scenario...
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Perhaps something like the Leica SL? which is 35mm and has a new lens mount but is (or better will be) able to take a/o S-lenses using an adapter.
My guess would also be that the chances of an entirely new MF body are indeed very slim...
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Actually there's more that he said, with phrases like: "Portability will be the key factor" (meaning that the camera is coming), "it will bring more people to MF" (meaning that it is entry level & it's MF) & "How and which way it will be portable, is yet to be announced" (meaning that the product is ready and only announcement remains).
Practically it's an announcement (especially as it is confirmed by the CEO of the company), my guess goes for a 33x44 sensor (so that Hasselblad uses an already existing sensor & electronics as to keep costs to the minimum), it is mirror box but without a removable MFDB and the mirror box is for OVF/sensor size up to 33x44mm (so that it is a direct alternative to the Leica-S), it has video (again like the Leica S 007) and it takes a new series of lenses, but with the same interface as the H-series so that if one plans a future update, will be able to invest on the H lenses and use them via an adapter... (again like the Leica -S). I don't see anything else that would keep in line with the CEO's own statements about the specifications of the product... My direct bet would go for a reframed H6D-50 priced around 12K Euros (inc. VAT)... in a few months we will know, but all sines (out of the CEO's own words) lead to that being the most possible scenario...
It wouldn't make much sense to get into the 'compact' medium format sector, there isn't that much demand and what little demand there is has already been filled by Pentax on the low-end and Leica on the high-end. If Hasselblad were to position themselves in-between that would sound nice but who would buy it? Realistically I mean. Those that look for a low price already have the Pentax645Z (and perhaps soon a new Pentax with a new sensor?) with their lens lineup already in place. Who would buy such a Hasselblad? And would they be forced to buy Hasselblad-lenses too? Wouldn't that make the whole cheap-entry-system idea completely useless? And if not - a new cheap lens lineup? Or an existing 3rd party option to have the Lunar/Sony debacle all over again?
I doubt they'll do that and I think you are twisting his words to fit your wishes. He could easily be talking about a mirrorless solution similar to the Hasselblad SWC system - which is after all very portable but with the addition of live-view much more comfortable to use.
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Hi,
Well, I don't think the Biogon plays well modern sensors, but an SWC type camera with EVF would be attractive and could be used with a wide variety of lenses.
I don't know if Hasselblad would be ready to take the step.
Best regards
Erik
It wouldn't make much sense to get into the 'compact' medium format sector, there isn't that much demand and what little demand there is has already been filled by Pentax on the low-end and Leica on the high-end. If Hasselblad were to position themselves in-between that would sound nice but who would buy it? Realistically I mean. Those that look for a low price already have the Pentax645Z (and perhaps soon a new Pentax with a new sensor?) with their lens lineup already in place. Who would buy such a Hasselblad? And would they be forced to buy Hasselblad-lenses too? Wouldn't that make the whole cheap-entry-system idea completely useless? And if not - a new cheap lens lineup? Or an existing 3rd party option to have the Lunar/Sony debacle all over again?
I doubt they'll do that and I think you are twisting his words to fit your wishes. He could easily be talking about a mirrorless solution similar to the Hasselblad SWC system - which is after all very portable but with the addition of live-view much more comfortable to use.
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It wouldn't make much sense to get into the 'compact' medium format sector, there isn't that much demand and what little demand there is has already been filled by Pentax on the low-end and Leica on the high-end. If Hasselblad were to position themselves in-between that would sound nice but who would buy it? Realistically I mean. Those that look for a low price already have the Pentax645Z (and perhaps soon a new Pentax with a new sensor?) with their lens lineup already in place. Who would buy such a Hasselblad? And would they be forced to buy Hasselblad-lenses too? Wouldn't that make the whole cheap-entry-system idea completely useless? And if not - a new cheap lens lineup? Or an existing 3rd party option to have the Lunar/Sony debacle all over again?
MO is that there is much sense into entering the "compact" (as you call it) DSLR market... Hasselblad has already a very wide base of thousands of customers that work with the H system all over the world, to them, a compact 44x33 DSLR will come as a blessing since they can both modernise their existing system and finance the new camera by selling their DSLR gear (which for cases other than sports would then be completely useless) altogether. Another factor that is often underestimated is the "shrinkage of gear" factor (using as little equipment as possible, yet improving quality), which to pros is very important. If one adds to the above the new comers to will cause to Hasselblad, it is the most logical thing to do.
I doubt they'll do that and I think you are twisting his words to fit your wishes. He could easily be talking about a mirrorless solution similar to the Hasselblad SWC system - which is after all very portable but with the addition of live-view much more comfortable to use.
"twisting his words"? ...in what way and how do I do that? The man speaks good English and is specific on his target group with phrases like "Leica S-section", "upper class DSLR users", "portable-entry level MF (to the H-system)" and on the Lula interview he insisted on the "greatness of MF optical viewfinder". Where do you see me twisting his words? To the contradict... where have you see him talking about a "mirrorless" or the SWC, or LV? What leads you as to come to that conclusion?
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Hi,
Well, I don't think the Biogon plays well modern sensors, but an SWC type camera with EVF would be attractive and could be used with a wide variety of lenses.
I don't know if Hasselblad would be ready to take the step.
Best regards
Erik
Quite right, I wasn't thinking of using the old lenses anyway - but if Hasselblad was thinking of a compact medium format camera that would be a start - new lenses etc would be necessary.
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MO is that there is much sense into entering the "compact" (as you call it) DSLR market... Hasselblad has already a very wide base of thousands of customers that work with the H system all over the world, to them, a compact 44x33 DSLR will come as a blessing since they can both modernise their existing system and finance the new camera by selling their DSLR gear (which for cases other than sports would then be completely useless) altogether. Another factor that is often underestimated is the "shrinkage of gear" factor (using as little equipment as possible, yet improving quality), which to pros is very important. If one adds to the above the new comers to will cause to Hasselblad, it is the most logical thing to do.
"twisting his words"? ...in what way and how do I do that? The man speaks good English and is specific on his target group with phrases like "Leica S-section", "upper class DSLR users", "portable-entry level MF (to the H-system)" and on the Lula interview he insisted on the "greatness of MF optical viewfinder". Where do you see me twisting his words? To the contradict... where have you see him talking about a "mirrorless" or the SWC, or LV? What leads you as to come to that conclusion?
Simply put: no.
If you already own the H system - why would you buy something you can't use with it? A compact medium format system would only make sense if the camera and the lenses are compact. But if you use the same lenses and you only have a small (very small) difference between the weight of a compact camera and the H6D - well why would you get a compact camera with all its drawbacks? It won't be weather sealed anyway, since the lenses aren't weather sealed.
It won't have faster AF or better ISO performance than the H camera and I think pros would rather invest in the new H6 with a 100mpx back by using the trade-in option.
In the whole interview he never said the Hasselblad he's thinking of is a compact Leica-S type. He said that its portability etc are factors they consider - that doesn't mean it'll be a carbon copy. Besides with 4*x3* sensors the viewfinder 'greatness' simply isn't really there anymore. So I doubt he was talking about creating a compact small medium format camera.
Leica S:
160 x 80 x 120 mm (without lens)
1.26 kg (without battery, without lens)
H6D:
153 x 131 x 205 mm (complete camera with HC 80mm f/2.8 lens)
2130 g (with battery, card, and HC 80mm f/2.8 lens)
I really don't see the big difference here in weight/portability when it comes to the body and if Hasselblad plans on using their pre-existing lens lineup the difference will be pretty much 0.
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Theo: you have made many predictions about Hasselblad, Leica, Phase, and Sinar. Maybe you could start a thread and list specific predictions you're making for each, so that we can all track how many of them come true. One of my favorite bloggers Robert Cringely does this every year.
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There have been numerous interviews of Perry Oosting, you will find them on youtube. In all of them, he hints at a new MF camera which would:
-be more compact and light than the H6
-directed at enthusiasts at a slightly lower price point than the H6
-built in Sweden.
That sounds interesting, but that could be plenty of things, for example something resembling the Leica Q or Sony RX-1. And we won't find out, because it is quite clear that Perry Oosting is only telling us what he wants us to know and nothing more.
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Actually there's more that he said, with phrases like: "Portability will be the key factor", "it will bring more people to MF". Practically it's an announcement (especially as it is confirmed by the CEO of the company), my guess goes for a 33x44 sensor. ... My direct bet would go for a reframed H6D-50 ... in a few months we will know ...
Agree, it is an announcement. I don't think it will be a reframed H6D50. This would not improve the portability.
I would love a Mamiya 7 type (with or without an EVP), using the existing H lenses.
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...or how about a Leica/Hasselblad merger? Leica has shown how Hasselblad lenses can be used on the S, the other way around might also work for the smaller sensors. Hasselblad would get strong distribution from the Leicashops, they would together be stronger towards the sensor manufacturers.... Well, some engineering would have to be done.
But I think this pond is too small for all the MF companies copying each other's form factors, and maintaining special PP SW for each brand.
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Actually, this sounds like a way to get rid of price bloat. Canon did the same with the 5D. One announces a "prosumer model" priced at 50% of the "pro" model, tells everybody it is "prosumer", but then puts in all the newest latest features, and some years later you have successfully lowered your prices by 50%, reached a new audience, and all this without destroying your brand.
Edmund
There have been numerous interviews of Perry Oosting, you will find them on youtube. In all of them, he hints at a new MF camera which would:
-be more compact and light than the H6
-directed at enthusiasts at a slightly lower price point than the H6
-built in Sweden.
That sounds interesting, but that could be plenty of things, for example something resembling the Leica Q or Sony RX-1. And we won't find out, because it is quite clear that Perry Oosting is only telling us what he wants us to know and nothing more.
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Agree, it is an announcement. I don't think it will be a reframed H6D50. This would not improve the portability.
Reframing is exactly what causes portability and reduction in cost. If the H6D is reframed so that the sensor/electronics are housed in the camera body (as it is with the Leica S) and then a dedicated mirrorbox & viewfinder for 33x44mm sensor is used (again like it is with the Leica S and its similar size 30x45 sensor), the result would be an MF DSLR that would resemble Leica S dimensions but at a significant reduction of costs than the H6D that will be caused by the luck of MFDB frame, the smaller VF & mirror box and the luck of modularity... Costs can further benefit by using already existing electronics and sensor... The compatibility with the existing series of H lenses, can then be secured by using a "dummy" adapter...
I would love a Mamiya 7 type (with or without an EVP), using the existing H lenses.
I'm sure that if he aimed for that kind of camera, he would have mentioned the Mamiya 7 as an example... But Mr. Ooosting mentioned the Leica S by name and also mentioned the customers of it as being the target group... "part of this market already buys into Leica S and this is what should attract our interest" he said... remember?
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I'm sure that if he aimed for that kind of camera, he would have mentioned the Mamiya 7 as an example... But Mr. Ooosting mentioned the Leica S by name and also mentioned the customers of it as being the target group... "part of this market already buys into Leica S and this is what should attract our interest" he said... remember?
Fully agree, this is what he said.
But if he wants to push portability a step further a Mamiya 7 would be the ultimate portability IMHO. Not sure how many current Leica S users would jump on the train and sell their very expensive gear and buy new lenses / body. A Mamiya 7 type with H lenses would have the sales boost the Leica SL is having now. You can keep your H6 for studio and the new guy for travel.
I am not sure if I am awake or still dreaming. :)
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Fully agree, this is what he said.
But if he wants to push portability a step further a Mamiya 7 would be the ultimate portability IMHO. Not sure how many current Leica S users would jump on the train and sell their very expensive gear and buy new lenses / body. A Mamiya 7 type with H lenses would have the sales boost the Leica SL is having now. You can keep your H6 for studio and the new guy for travel.
I am not sure if I am awake or still dreaming. :)
Portability with H-lenses...? We probably have different ideas about portability...
IMHO if you are talking about portability you are necessarily talking about m43 or APS-C or fixed lens cameras like the Leica Q or the Sony RX1RII. Everything else remains heavy (including FF mirrorless).
The Leica SL is also not exactly the king of portability with the 2 zoom lenses weighing 1.2KG and 1.7KG... That being said it is a very appealing camera IMO.
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Assuming Hasselblad introduces a new "entry level" medium format camera utilizing the same 33x44 sensor currently in the H5D, H6D, and CFV-50c, at a price point that "attracts new users," their first question is how to do so without cannibalizing sales on those other platforms. You want to give new users a taste of the quality the larger format is famous for, but not such a flexible system that users - both new and old - can conclude that it mostly does everything they need.
And the R&D and pre-prod fab expenses must be kept tightly in check.
With that as the brief, what would make sense to me is a fixed lens rangefinder.
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Can someone explain the target buyers of this monstrosity?
Edmund
Portability with H-lenses...? We probably have different ideas about portability...
IMHO if you are talking about portability you are necessarily talking about m43 or APS-C or fixed lens cameras like the Leica Q or the Sony RX1RII. Everything else remains heavy (including FF mirrorless).
The Leica SL is also not exactly the king of portability with the 2 zoom lenses weighing 1.2KG and 1.7KG... That being said it is a very appealing camera IMO.
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Assuming Hasselblad introduces a new "entry level" medium format camera utilizing the same 33x44 sensor currently in the H5D, H6D, and CFV-50c, at a price point that "attracts new users," their first question is how to do so without cannibalizing sales on those other platforms. You want to give new users a taste of the quality the larger format is famous for, but not such a flexible system that users - both new and old - can conclude that it mostly does everything they need.
And the R&D and pre-prod fab expenses must be kept tightly in check.
With that as the brief, what would make sense to me is a fixed lens rangefinder.
IMO, it won't matter if there is some cannibalisation happening, not if it adds more customers and more profitability because of larger per sale margin... Let me explain... If you notice the real price of H6D-50, (after the trade in value is subtracted) it comes down to 16K USD, If they price the same package, but rehoused in a non-modular body for 12K, there can be even larger profit remaining per item... ;) Besides, one would expect for many to still prefer the modular body (especially if they need the body to be modular) and there is still the H6D-100 that will keep the H6D system running well... But the 12K DSLR, will surely attract more customers to invest into the system other than cannibalising (but still have the same customers) some out of the H6D sales... I also don't expect the H5D-50 to continue after the H6D trade policy will stop... I expect them to then come with a similar pricing policy with the H6D, if you take the currently offered trade in prices of the H6D, it's easy to conclude that they are not that much different to the H5D-50 pricing policy... ;)
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Can someone explain the target buyers of this monstrosity?
Edmund
What is there to explain? If a DSLR type camera is introduced, you'll have a new series of lenses (with smaller image circle) for it... The compatibility with H lenses (via an adapter) will be retained only as to "bridge" the two systems into one...
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What is there to explain? If a DSLR type camera is introduced, you'll have a new series of lenses (with smaller image circle) for it... The compatibility with H lenses (via an adapter) will be retained only as to "bridge" the two systems into one...
I am guessing Edmund is probably talking about the Leica SL...
I don't think it is a monstrosity... it is a very incomplete system at present with only 2 zooms available but IMO it holds a lot of promise for the future...
As soon as the S-adapter becomes available I will probably get one...
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I am guessing Edmund is probably talking about the Leica SL...
I don't think it is a monstrosity... it is a very incomplete system at present with only 2 zooms available but IMO it holds a lot of promise for the future...
As soon as the S-adapter becomes available I will probably get one...
Ok, ok, a juvenile monster then.
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Ok, ok, a juvenile monster then.
I do believe you miss the point with the SL... The SL is NOT there to be appealing, if Leica wanted to do that, they could make an interchangeable lens Q instead (cheaper than the Q too since there would be no lens) with T mount and market that... (which might as well happen). Instead, the SL is marketed as a PRO camera and it being a mirrorless, it has great compatibility (and LV) as to play the roll of an MFDB on a Sinar camera, as well as providing a great video platform for professional use... My Opinion is that the SL was never meant to be a mainstream product, the dedicated lenses made for it are to support the future T -mount (FF) cameras, the SL is there only for pros... (and that's how Leica markets it...). Wait until the S to SL adapter will be introduced (by next month I think is what Leica's intro announcement said) and thus the communication interface for one to use the SL on a view camera (as a back) with the (larger image circle) S lenses on the front standard and full communication interface between (the SL) camera and (the S) lenses... The SL has 4mm (!!!!) wider mount (in diameter) than the Sony a7 and only 19mm lens mounting distance... That "says" (by itself) a lot more for its purpose (to pros) than what Synn's mind can achieve... ;)
EDIT: There are two kinds of viewpoint with the SL... One that sees a FF mirrorless with respect to Sony a7 and another, (the correct one) that sees an ALPA 12 FPS alternative...
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Wait until the S to SL adapter will be introduced (by next month I think is what Leica's intro announcement said) and thus the communication interface for one to use the SL on a view camera (as a back) with the (larger image circle) S lenses on the front standard and full communication interface between (the SL) camera and (the S) lenses... The SL has 4mm (!!!!) wider mount (in diameter) than the Sony a7 and only 19mm lens mounting distance... That "says" (by itself) a lot more for its purpose (to pros) than what Synn's mind can achieve... ;)
EDIT: There are two kinds of viewpoint with the SL... One that sees a FF mirrorless with respect to Sony a7 and another, (the correct one) that sees an ALPA 12 FPS alternative...
There may be something to what you say. I never got the point of the SL as a handheld, but as a digital back in all but name ... ;)
Edmund
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There may be something to what you say ;)
Edmund
There is always something in what I say... Otherwise... I don't speak. ;)
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I never got the point of the SL as a handheld, but as a digital back in all but name ... ;)
Right now the Leica SL IMO only makes sense for people with R-glass (call it the R10 if you want) and long M-lenses (rather difficult to focus on the M for some).
With the 2 zoom lenses you can add versatility but they are expensive, heavy and rather slow...
This can all change when Leica releases the 50mm at the end of the year. Leica claims that it will be the new reference for this focal length.
If they pull this off I am sure a lot more people will become interested in the Leica SL...
As a video platform you will also be able to use Leica Cine lenses through an adapter.
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If they pull this off I am sure a lot more people will become interested in the Leica SL...
I am sure the success of the S and the SL (and the failure of the Lunars) has made Hasselblad thinking why they cannot do the same.
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I am sure the success of the S and the SL (and the failure of the Lunars) has made Hasselblad thinking why they cannot do the same.
Unfortunately Hasselblad made a lot of poor decisions in the past and it will take them a while to catch up again.
It would appear they are at the right track again, although I wouldn't call pricing the H6D-50c at $26K one of their better judgement calls...
You can shoot Hasselblad H lenses on the Leica S with a focal plane shutter, you can't on the Hasselblad H...
You can shoot the Hasselblad Zeiss Planar 110mm on a Leica S body, you cannot on the H-body.
The H-body accepts H and V lenses, the Leica S does the same and (in addition to S-lenses) also Contax 645, Pentax 67 and Mamiya 645 lenses.
And by stacking adapters you will also be able to use them on the Leica SL.
There's some catch up to be done here for Hasselblad...
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I am sure the success of the S and the SL (and the failure of the Lunars) has made Hasselblad thinking why they cannot do the same.
It's rather, "why they weren't doing the same..." Agreed... Go figure! My guess is with the answer "because products where designed by marketeers instead of photographers & engineers working together..." Never the less, one can't help to notice that P1 is completely the other way around... They sleep in the "marketing nirvana" of the past years.... Unless if they wake up, I can see them having big trouble to compete soon... pity... They don't listen... they are based on the fanboy base they've created (like Hassy was until 3 years ago) and think that they can rely on that... It's explainable... they luck past experience!
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It's rather, "why they weren't doing the same..." Agreed... Go figure! My guess is with the answer "because products where designed by marketeers instead of photographers & engineers working together..." Never the less, one can't help to notice that P1 is completely the other way around... They sleep in the "marketing nirvana" of the past years.... Unless if they wake up, I can see them having big trouble to compete soon... pity... They don't listen... they are based on the fanboy base they've created (like Hassy was until 3 years ago) and think that they can rely on that... It's explainable... they luck past experience!
P1 have dealers who can sell ice to eskimos; that gives them a lot of flexibility. :)
Edmund
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There's some catch up to be done here for Hasselblad...
A lot to catch up, but it may be easier if they copy someone else.
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First thing that they should do, is to include a focal plane shutter in the design. They should have done that with the H1 too ages ago... Next is that they should introduce back the CF series of self contained backs... Third is that they should have done a 28mm lens for the V some... ages ago!
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P1 have dealers who can sell ice to eskimos; that gives them a lot of flexibility. :)
Edmund
One should better think as to "why the Eskimos do buy the Ice" instead... IMO the answer is simple... It's all Hasselblad's fault, if they would have continued making the CF series of backs, Eskimos would have a choice... ;)