Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: narikin on April 12, 2016, 10:58:03 am
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Anyone got one of the new 64" models yet? I'd be interested to hear how it compares. Are they even delivering?
Epson seem to be pushing speed with this, but for many of us here, that is not the critical issue, its print quality, gamut, and reliable clog-free heads for owner-users that would be a real improvement, not something 50% faster.
I'm keen to get across to the new long life yellow inks, and those archival improvements, otherwise would stick with reliable 11880 - been a great machine for many of us. I get on my knees and thank the stars that this workhorse doesn't suffer from 9900 type head issues!
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I don't think either the P10000 or the P20000 is available till the end of the month. All places here in the U.S. say April 30th. I am going to get the P10000 and also get on my hands and knees and pray that I get a good one. LOL! My 9900 has lasted 6 years and although I complain about the ink waste, I haven't had the problems that others have had.
Gar
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I just hope they release 24/44" versions with the new, less-clogging heads and the extended-gamut O/G/V inks of the P7000/P9000 printers.
A slow printer doesn't bother me. But I need as much gamut as I can get.
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The 24/44" P7000/P9000 are available. P9000 is on a short b/o with Epson at the moment, but should be in stock soon. The Commercial version uses the Violet, but is NOT recommended for photographers by any means. This version is for Proof/Packaging only. Violet version requires a RIP (hence for proofing and packaging users/companies). Once you put the Violet in the printer, it cannot be converted back to Lt Lt Blk (same as the other way). The P series are doing very well so far with much less clogging than the previous series.
P10000 and P20000 are expecting to be available very soon.
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Does anyone know if the P10000 can be considered as a Fine Art printer? I mean does the speed and the different inks of this printer permit the same level of quality as the 9900? I am very attracted to the New Advanced Media Feeding System of the P10000, because i had some problems feeding Hahnemuehle Fine Art Photo papers in my 9900(scratches etc). I am also attracted to the four-level grey ink technology because I do a lot of BW printing. What are the negative aspects of the P10000 in comparison to the SP 9900? The speed is not very important to me.
Thanks
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I believe the inks are the same as the 7000/9000, except without the orange/green and with the addition of an extra grey.
You just wouldn't release a printer with four shades of grey if it weren't intended for fine-art use...
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It will be interesting to see a comparison/differences between the SP 9000 and the P10000....
:) ken
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I hoping to order a P10000 sometime in the beginning of May. When I get it I will do a comparison between my 9900 and the P10000, that is if I haven't sold my 9900 on Craigslist yet.
Gar
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Does anyone know if the P10000 can be considered as a Fine Art printer? I mean does the speed and the different inks of this printer permit the same level of quality as the 9900? I am very attracted to the New Advanced Media Feeding System of the P10000, because i had some problems feeding Hahnemuehle Fine Art Photo papers in my 9900(scratches etc). I am also attracted to the four-level grey ink technology because I do a lot of BW printing. What are the negative aspects of the P10000 in comparison to the SP 9900? The speed is not very important to me.
Thanks
From what I saw coming out of the p20000 at a trade show, the quality seems to be on par with the p6000/p8000. closer examination and testing may even show the extra grey offers some quality gains. The increased speed has been achieved in two ways, first by lowering the nozzle density, so this printer operates at similar resolution to Canon and HP now (300dpi instead of 360 dpi). The head is also huge (2.6 inches vs 1 inch, 800 nozzles per channel at 300nozzles/inch vs 360 nozzles at 360 nozzles per inch) so it's covering 260% more paper in each pass. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtsitb5qHwU )
The paper handling/loading and other design features look great other than it doesn't feature the straight through paper path of current printers, so I"m not sure what impact that might have on some heavy or very stiff media types.
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I can't wait to see what Epson has done with them.
From what I heard six months ago, the P2000 ( and P1000 that they announced later ) were designed by Epson specifically for the art market. Most of the interest in the extended gamut insets were to satisfy the Pantone people ( designers primarily ) to hit some very specific hues.
I know one thing, if the the added gray does not noticeably improve monochrome printing then they are doing something terribly wrong with their software. As in years past we will most likely have to wait for QTR and Ergosoft to set up their workflows to get the most out of it. Most of us who have been doing quad and hextone printing for the last 10-15 years have come to the conclusion that 3 grays and a black ( quad set ) are about the minimum number of partitions to get you into the dimensional realm of a great analogue print. Six channels is noticeably better than 4 but 4 can be really excellent if done correctly.
I like my Canon and HP 3 channel bw output on Pk papers like Platine, but it isn't the same as four. Where I see the difference between say K6 or K7 and the 3 channel sets is in the high values, definitely the high values . That is where the sculptural aspects come into play. It reminds me of the days when printing with a silver paper with more silver in it ( like Agfa Record Rapid ) totally out performed the analogue papers with less silver. It's just so much more forgiving and easy to deal with when almost any file you print has more values to start with. With these Epson inks though, you are still going to have to add some color dots to neutralize, and that needs to be done right too on the software level. Maybe Epson has been thinking about that too. But it's gotta be a lot better than ABW, that's for sure.
I just have this intuitive feeling that these printers are going to kick ass. And then I'll have to buy something else...... Never ends does it. This damn tech world.
John
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I just have this intuitive feeling that these printers are going to kick ass. And then I'll have to buy something else...... Never ends does it. This damn tech world.
John
:) I hope you are right that Epson really delivers for the fine art printer with these new printers. I'm battling with a stubborn Green channel in my 7900 at the moment (just about to waste a lot of ink and do a full INIT to see if the suction will solve it) and if it ends up I have a bad head then I'm going to have to seriously consider the P10000. I've already replaced the head in my 7900 once and I don't think I could justify doing it a second time.
Regarding ABW and the new 4K ink setup: To me, this is the biggest question of all...i.e. will Epson do a decent "upgrade" to the ABW software driver to take full advantage of the new K inks? I'm actually more interested in the answer to that question than anything else at this point. And I guess equally important will be whether QTR will be able to support the printer. At this point it doesn't look like Piezography will be an option because of the new cartridge design and Epson's intention to prevent any non-Epson carts. So for B&W it will be either ABW (hopefully significantly upgraded) or QTR if the printer can be supported. Right now I would find it hard to invest in this printer not knowing more about the B&W software driver options.
Dave
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:) I hope you are right that Epson really delivers for the fine art printer with these new printers. I'm battling with a stubborn Green channel in my 7900 at the moment (just about to waste a lot of ink and do a full INIT to see if the suction will solve it) and if it ends up I have a bad head then I'm going to have to seriously consider the P10000. I've already replaced the head in my 7900 once and I don't think I could justify doing it a second time.
Regarding ABW and the new 4K ink setup: To me, this is the biggest question of all...i.e. will Epson do a decent "upgrade" to the ABW software driver to take full advantage of the new K inks? I'm actually more interested in the answer to that question than anything else at this point. And I guess equally important will be whether QTR will be able to support the printer. At this point it doesn't look like Piezography will be an option because of the new cartridge design and Epson's intention to prevent any non-Epson carts. So for B&W it will be either ABW (hopefully significantly upgraded) or QTR if the printer can be supported. Right now I would find it hard to invest in this printer not knowing more about the B&W software driver options.
Dave
No doubt someone will make a non-Epson cartridge sooner rather than later, which can then be filled with Piezography and other inks.
Any ink cartridge can be made third-party. If they make it too expensive or difficult to manufacture, it becomes difficult for them too. And then Piezography would just migrate to another (Canon or HP) platform.
Also, there are plenty of rock-solid, non-clogging 7600/7800/9600/9800 machines out there, which are perfect for Piezography. There are plenty of black-and-white photographers out there, and plenty of demand for top-quality black-and-white printing. Piezography is a major, popular system - it's not going to die off just because Epson wants to force everyone to use its OEM, one-size-fits-all inkset.
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Shadowblade is right. Every time they come up with a new printer they try to keep 3rd party carts out, but people always get around it. Last time they foolishly tried to keep QTR out ( rather than working with them ) and QTR got around that fast. Ergosoft is expensive but they always support the new Epson units. There should be plenty of older model Epsons around to use Piezography with in the mean time. I know I would be very, very, sad if I couldn't do my K7 Carbon prints. I haven't done anything that comes close to that. But for a universal printer the new ones based on the 11880 could be very sweet.
John
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Slightly off topic, but..
Waiting for Jon Cone or someone else to jailbreak the chips on the P800 and these newer large printers as well. Then I can purchase a set of empties for my P800 to load with OEM inks pulled from Epsons so called empty carts.
I do it now for all my K3 printers. 9900 and 3880. I purchase empties and carts that are almost full from other people in the business that are discarding their K3 printers for one reason or another.
I now have my ink costs under .10 per ml. by extracting OEM inks. Many of these inks are out of date but a large portion of my printing is for testing at workshops. I use full sets of factory OEM inkcarts/in date for the important stuff.
The P800 starter carts are labeled 64ml. Most have close to 70 ml in them but all stop printing with around 35ml left. Bottom line you have access to only around half the ink for printing in those carts. (But all can be extracted.)
I do the same thing for my 4880 with dye sub Saw Grass inks. To a T they almost all stop with between 35 and 40ml. At $1.50 a ml the savings for me are huge. That is $60 worth of ink per cart most folks are throwing away.
The empty 4880 cart set was around $300. I made that back in the first 5 dye sub carts I drained.
Attached picture shows extracting 36ml of ink from an initial 64ml P800 cart. I am storing those extracted inks in bottles until someone cracks the chip.
Other 2 carts in the picture are 9900 and 3880 refilled with OEM K3 inks from carts that would no longer print.
By the way, thank you Ken.
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Shadowblade is right. Every time they come up with a new printer they try to keep 3rd party carts out, but people always get around it. Last time they foolishly tried to keep QTR out ( rather than working with them ) and QTR got around that fast. Ergosoft is expensive but they always support the new Epson units. There should be plenty of older model Epsons around to use Piezography with in the mean time. I know I would be very, very, sad if I couldn't do my K7 Carbon prints. I haven't done anything that comes close to that. But for a universal printer the new ones based on the 11880 could be very sweet.
John
I can see the Chinese making some very good inkjet printers in the future, if they'd just put their mind to it.
At the moment, Chinese companies probably make more inkjet printers than anyone else. Most of these are high-speed, grand format or flatbed, four-colour machines designed to spit out banners. They're dirt-cheap compared to what Epson/HP/Roland and others offer, and after-sales support is generally sub-par, but when it comes down to it, they do what they're supposed to do - namely, put ink onto paper in the right places - quickly, noisily and efficiently, without clogs or any need for constant, careful maintenance. Don't expect any refinements like inbuilt spectrophotometers, and don't expect great software either. They make no pretence to be ink companies - some don't even sell ink - but you can put just about any liquid into them and they'll squirt it out onto whatever substrate you can cram into the printer. Think of them as the AK47 of printers - utilitarian workhorses designed to do a job with the minimum of fuss.
Trouble is, they're mostly four-ink units (at most six-ink) and too large to be practical for photography and fine art reproduction, where, for the most part, you're not printing banners several metres wide. But if one of them decided to go after the photography and print shop market, producing a (relatively) dirt-cheap, 24"-44" printer with 12 or so heads, to which you could attach any sort of ink and control them via a RIP, they could probably give Epson and Canon a run for their money. And, no doubt, someone would probably start making quality, high-longevity inks as well (or you could just empty HP Vivera cartridges into the new printer).
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The P10000/P20000 are intended more towards larger production business/companies that print quicker but still product high end prints. The inks ONLY come in 700ml and nothing smaller. You could also do fine art printing, but if you won't be doing large amounts of printing, you're better off with the P8000/P9000 (44").
If you already have a 64" model (Epson 11880) and looking for a replacement, than the P20000.
The main part that differs from the Px000 is that they will have direct BK/MK lines to the print head, so no waiting for the black conversion and prints right away.
Atlex.com
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Then why did they put an extra light gray in there? That makes no sense.
The P10000/P20000 are intended more towards larger production business/companies that print quicker but still product high end prints. The inks ONLY come in 700ml and nothing smaller. You could also do fine art printing, but if you won't be doing large amounts of printing, you're better off with the P8000/P9000 (44").
If you already have a 64" model (Epson 11880) and looking for a replacement, than the P20000.
The main part that differs from the Px000 is that they will have direct BK/MK lines to the print head, so no waiting for the black conversion and prints right away.
Atlex.com
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Then why did they put an extra light gray in there? That makes no sense.
That's not the only thing that doesn't make a lot of sense.
Apart from photography/fine art printing, there aren't too many other applications where aqueous inkjet is the best solution. Aqueous inkjet coatings are fragile. Unless you're going to frame it behind glass, the print needs to be protected with a spray or laminate of some sort. This is an extra, time-consuming step which isn't mandatory with any other kind of inkjet printing. Furthermore, you can't apply the coating until the print dries. No matter how fast the printer prints, you still need to wait for it to dry and outgas before performing the next step, and aqueous prints dry slowly. Even with all of this, you're still stuck with a printer that's not suitable for printing things to be displayed outdoors or on surfaces expected to take abuse (e.g. advertising decals on floors), requires a time-consuming, multistep process to produce things like posters (which are still more fragile than their screen-printed, solvent-printed or latex-printed counterparts) but which produces excellent image quality (i.e. overkill for printing blueprints and diagrams). What are you left with other than fine art applications?
I'd be very interested to see what you can do with this printer using a RIP. You probably don't need four different shades of grey for printing colour (if you were dedicated to black-and-white, you'd probably be using Piezography). What if you switched one of the greys for a green ink? Greens are very prevalent in nature, and are prominent in outdoor shots almost anywhere apart from the middle of some cities. They are also a notorious weak spot in the typical, four-colour CMYK setup. Switching a green for a grey could significantly increase your gamut. Also, MK and PK run on two completely separate channels here. If you don't plan to print on glossy media with the printer (say, you bought it to print roll after roll of Lyve, since canvas prints are often large and could benefit from the high speed), what if you swapped the PK channel for either a red or a brown? You'd probably be able to match or exceed the gamut and print quality of the 4900/7900/9900, while retaining the high speed and non-clogging heads of the new printer.
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Then why did they put an extra light gray in there? That makes no sense.
I asked this question to my dealer and they felt the extra grey is there to ileviate a banding issue. As has been mentioned the 10K and 20K are meant for high volume shops. Nothing smaller than 700ml tanks. The output of the 9000 with the new yellow seems a better fit for my needs just wish the head allowed for on line black swaps.
Paul C
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Then why did they put an extra light gray in there? That makes no sense.
Exactly. And a system which uses only 700ml carts seems odd unless Epson is specifically trying to keep this printer out of the hands of individuals and small shops interested in high quality fine art printing who typically are not printing continuously. While I wish I was doing enough business to print continuously, it's not realistic for me.
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These printers were based on the 11880 design which was the best "fine art" printer they ever made. The extra gray also improves gradients in all colors and reduces the metameric issues under different light sources. But primarily it would benefit monochrome tonal rendition ( if they do it right ). The benefits of having one printer that can do everything well is obvious. Not only because you can pick and choose the exact monochrome print color you want for a project on the fly, but also not waste all that ink when switching back and forth between PK and Mk all day long. As a "fine art" printmaker I care a lot more about that than I do the orange and green gamut ( or violet :-). They don't need that green. They couldn't have put a gray in all the other models it seems to me. But I've been saying that for a long time with the last series.
Probably the biggest concern for me would be how much of those big carts are wasted with head cleanings and pressure issues, as in the last series. We might not know the true answer for that for another year. But, there is a lot of potential there.
John
Exactly. And a system which uses only 700ml carts seems odd unless Epson is specifically trying to keep this printer out of the hands of individuals and small shops interested in high quality fine art printing who typically are not printing continuously. While I wish I was doing enough business to print continuously, it's not realistic for me.
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Then why did they put an extra light gray in there? That makes no sense.
Maybe you misunderstood his post. The printer has dedicated pk and mk nozzles. There is no ink swapping.
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Maybe you misunderstood his post. The printer has dedicated pk and mk nozzles. There is no ink swapping.
What's that got to do with the presence of three shades of grey in addition to PK and MK?
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These printers were based on the 11880 design which was the best "fine art" printer they ever made. The extra gray also improves gradients in all colors and reduces the metameric issues under different light sources. But primarily it would benefit monochrome tonal rendition ( if they do it right ). The benefits of having one printer that can do everything well is obvious. Not only because you can pick and choose the exact monochrome print color you want for a project on the fly, but also not waste all that ink when switching back and forth between PK and Mk all day long. As a "fine art" printmaker I care a lot more about that than I do the orange and green gamut ( or violet :-). They don't need that green. They couldn't have put a gray in all the other models it seems to me. But I've been saying that for a long time with the last series.
Probably the biggest concern for me would be how much of those big carts are wasted with head cleanings and pressure issues, as in the last series. We might not know the true answer for that for another year. But, there is a lot of potential there.
John
Why would you not want greater gamut, particularly for nature and landscape photography? Green is common throughout nature, and reds are very prevalent in rocks and sunset/sunrise scenes. Both these colours are also notorious weak spots for CMYK inksets (as is brown - a dedicated brown ink can do a much better job of lighter and more vivid browns without looking muddy). I'd prefer an inkset that can deliver vivid, super-saturated colours, even on matte media, than one with an extra light grey that really doesn't help colour photos all that much.
Certainly, the extra grey would help black-and-white tonality, but, for fine art black-and-white printing, there really isn't a match for Piezography Carbon or MIS Eboni, and won't be until Epson/Canon/HP comes up with their own pure-carbon inkset. Their longevity and print quality are just on another planet. Run Piezography Carbon K7 with one or two long-life colour pigments for toning and you end up with a flexible black-and-white inkset that surpasses anything you can do using a full-colour inkset.
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... I'd prefer an inkset that can deliver vivid, super-saturated colours, even on matte media, than one with an extra light grey that really doesn't help colour photos all that much.
And therein lies the difference in your "sweet spot" and mine for what we want out of a printer system for doing fine art work. You are right that there are benefits to dedicating a printer to B&W (e.g. Piezography), but what I need (and would fit into my budget) is a "universal" printer that can do either B&W or color, both with the best possible quality. That is why the interest in the 4K setup in the P10000 (assuming the driver software will take advantage of it). Gamut is still important, but the ability to do both high-quality B&W AND color is higher priority for me.
Dave
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What's that got to do with the presence of three shades of grey in addition to PK and MK?
His question seemed to be directed at the previous post which discussed the pk/my switching. A quick glance at that post might have been interpreted to imply the new printers were like the rest of the Epson line in that they have ink lines to the head, but not dedicated nozzles, as though Epson decided the extra gray was used instead of dedicated MK nozzles.
I certainly may have misunderstood his reply ("Then why did they put an extra light gray in there? That makes no sense.") but I didn't see any other reason for that response based on the previous post which it seemed directed towards.
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I'm battling with a stubborn Green channel in my 7900 at the moment (just about to waste a lot of ink and do a full INIT to see if the suction will solve it) and if it ends up I have a bad head then I'm going to have to seriously consider the P10000. I've already replaced the head in my 7900 once and I don't think I could justify doing it a second time.
I just bought a 7900 with a clogged orange channel with the intention to run it as a piezography printer, or simply use QTR with it. However I found if I install the 7890 driver it bypasses the orange and green inks. With the auto cleaning (I'm sure that's what killed the head for the previous owner) turned off it hasn't caused me any issues. I do color pair cleanings in maintenance mode and it seems to work well. All the 7890 profiles seem to print as well as factory profiles ever do. I bought Orange and Green empty carts from inkjetmall and put piezoflush in them as a way of keeping the cost down.
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From what I saw coming out of the p20000 at a trade show, the quality seems to be on par with the p6000/p8000. closer examination and testing may even show the extra grey offers some quality gains. The increased speed has been achieved in two ways, first by lowering the nozzle density, so this printer operates at similar resolution to Canon and HP now (300dpi instead of 360 dpi). The head is also huge (2.6 inches vs 1 inch, 800 nozzles per channel at 300nozzles/inch vs 360 nozzles at 360 nozzles per inch) so it's covering 260% more paper in each pass. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtsitb5qHwU )
Strange that for Fine Art Aqueous machines Epson would prioritize speed in the new generation. I don't know anyone who was saying "my printer's too slow'. Yes maybe in commercial signage or solvent machines, but not in fine art. Odd.
Everyone wants more gamut, more longevity, less bronzing (where's the gloss overcoat option, a la Canon?). Nothing wrong with getting a print faster of course, but really they have fixed a 'problem' that did not exist for most people here.
Still I commercial labs will be happy I guess, and some of them do use Aqueous machines, so... good for them!
(Personally I'd still like an XL wide printer option - 80" or so, but that seems to be a dream)
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A whole lot of these companies that the printer companies are marketing to are cranking out a lot of large canvas painting reproductions and stuff like that, or lots of multi print editions of the same image. So, they make their money in volume as apposed to single image ultra-fine image quality for an exhibition or portfolio.
For most of the work I do it's like one print at a time or a couple at a time. That's not an easy way to make a living of course.
When I do make large editions of paintings and art reproductions, like 50 - hundreds of copies, I often use bi-directional 16 bit printing on my Canon and the quality is surprisingly good. And it is a far cry from what bi-directional printing used to be. But many people want even faster output for large prints. I guess I can understand where they are coming from.
john
Strange that for Fine Art Aqueous machines Epson would prioritize speed in the new generation. I don't know anyone who was saying "my printer's too slow'. Yes maybe in commercial signage or solvent machines, but not in fine art. Odd.
Everyone wants more gamut, more longevity, less bronzing (where's the gloss overcoat option, a la Canon?). Nothing wrong with getting a print faster of course, but really they have fixed a 'problem' that did not exist for most people here.
Still I commercial labs will be happy I guess, and some of them do use Aqueous machines, so... good for them!
(Personally I'd still like an XL wide printer option - 80" or so, but that seems to be a dream)
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If you're churning out lots and lots of el-cheapo canvas prints, solvent or UV would work even better. The inks are cheaper and you don't need to bother with spraying and laminating them afterwards, saving on time and manpower.
If you're after quality, you'd want the extra gamut in a lot of cases.
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Yes, I too noted the new 300dpi head figure, a change from the old 360dpi Epson standard.
This means I guess that for XL prints -which is exactly what the new 64" P20000 machine is designed for- you can work at 150dpi, which was the old 180dpi.
Personally I've made very acceptable prints on the 11880 by sending it files at 120dpi. Surprising how well those come out. (no up-sampling by me, though of course the printer driver does its own thing)