Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: Rand47 on April 04, 2016, 12:50:20 pm
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I've found an interesting discrepancy that I'd like your thoughts on. My question stems from Mark's comments about loading Canson Baryta Photographique and Ilford GFS via the Front Fine Art mechanism on a P800.
I've stated before that when I do this, I get head strikes on the first few inches of the print, in the middle of the 17" width. I've now experimented by going all the way to paper thickness 15 and platen gap wide. Still get light head strikes that ruin the print.
I decided to experiment with Epson Exhibition Fiber paper. Here's the odd thing. I set the driver (Windows) to Front Fine Art, then set the paper to Exhibition Fiber. Here's a dialog box that popped up. (I repeated this several times to make sure it wasn't a cyber hiccup.)
(https://rsadams.smugmug.com/photos/i-c3hRqTr/0/O/i-c3hRqTr.jpg)
Yet, when I look on page 8 of the P800 Basics booklet that came with the printer, it lists Exhibition Fiber as one of those listed re using the Front Fine Art feed.
The box for Exhibition Fiber says it is 13 mil thick, which equals 330.2 microns. Ilford GFS is only 315 microns.
My question is which is right, the driver or the Basics manual? And, how does this comport with what Mark has been told by Epson? Since I'm getting head strikes using the Font Fine Art feed, I've been using the sheet feeder instead - in opposition to Mark's advice. I'd appreciate any insight, confirmation, refutation, advice etc. re this difference in driver and manual.
ADDED NOTE: I have the latest driver and firmware installed.
Thanks in advance . . .
Rand
PS - I also have a P600 and have no problems with Front Fine Art feed at all with GFS or Canson Baryta.
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Hi Rand,
A senior Epson representative who know what he's talking about clearly told me that these heavy papers should be loaded from the FFA, period. They may load from the sheet feeder, but doing that with those papers over time risks damaging the mechanism. I don't do Windows so I can't comment on any conflict between the Windows version of the driver and the manual. As well, the manual for the P800 clearly says on page 63 to use the FFA feed for Exhibition Fiber paper.
If you are still getting head strikes by using the correct feeder with the platen gap set to wide and the paper thickness set to anything higher than level 5, call Epson tech support to discuss the possibility of a defect.
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Hi Rand,
A senior Epson representative who know what he's talking about clearly told me that these heavy papers should be loaded from the FFA, period. They may load from the sheet feeder, but doing that with those papers over time risks damaging the mechanism. I don't do Windows so I can't comment on any conflict between the Windows version of the driver and the manual. As well, the manual for the P800 clearly says on page 63 to use the FFA feed for Exhibition Fiber paper.
If you are still getting head strikes by using the correct feeder with the platen gap set to wide and the paper thickness set to anything higher than level 5, call Epson tech support to discuss the possibility of a defect.
Mark,
Thanks for the feedback. Very much appreciated. I contacted Epson today and explained the situation in detail. They are replacing the printer, agreeing that it is a mechanical defect. Overnight shipping of replacement. One cannot ask for better customer service. I've owned a bunch of Epson printers over the years, all flawless except this one. This great customer service (someone who took the time to listen and understand) is really satisfying and encouraging. Thank you Epson.
Thanks again...
Rand
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They let me keep my inks when I had to exchange mine.
Hope you did the same.
Corrected for spl.
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They let me keep minks when I had to exchange mine.
Hope you did the same.
Dan,
Good thought. Unless the packing instructions for return explicitly state to leave the ink carts in place, I'll pull and vacuum seal them. Thanks...
Rand
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Good, glad you got sorted out.
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A senior Epson representative who know what he's talking about clearly told me that these heavy papers should be loaded from the FFA, period. They may load from the sheet feeder, but doing that with those papers over time risks damaging the mechanism.
Did he specify what he considers "heavy"? >300gsm? Or are really talking about thickness? I can more easily imagine a roller-feed mechanism being damaged by feeding thick FA paper than by the weight of a higher-density RC paper of the same weight... an A2 sheet of 310gsm weighs only 77g, or about 3oz!
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Did he specify what he considers "heavy"? >300gsm? Or are really talking about thickness? I can more easily imagine a roller-feed mechanism being damaged by feeding thick FA paper than by the weight of a higher-density RC paper of the same weight... an A2 sheet of 310gsm weighs only 77g, or about 3oz!
What he meant is that if you go to the Epson P800 manual and read the list of papers that should be fed through the FFA feed, any other papers that resemble those characteristics should also be fed through the FFA feed. By dint of elementary comparison, this should include all four Legacy papers, IGFS, CBP, etc. etc.
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Hello,
I had a similar issue last month with my out of warranty R3000.
I was asked to make some A3+ color prints from a friend photographer, we made some small proof and then decided to go with the Ilford Gold Fibre Silk (I still had 5 A3+ sheets of the pre-bankruptcy time, my last ones).
I never had issues with that paper in the past with my R3000, so I was confident to be able to carry out the task of the just 3 requested prints.
The first print come out perfect, but in the second print at one point I started to hear "that sound"... :(
The print came out with head scratches in the initial central zone, exactly as you explained.
I Double checked the paper for improper carving but this was not the case, at least from what I can assess.
I had other 3 consecutive sheets scratched in the exact same zone after this first one, in my tentative to understand what was wrong.
Looking inside the front tray during one print I noticed that something in the printer output path forced the sheet to make a slight "bump" in the center zone. This happened only in the first part of the print and this puzzled me. So in another tentative at that point (but it was still too late because the heads were already scratching) I tried to slightly lift the paper using an A4 box inside the output tray in order to see if it could help and, surprise, instantly the sound disappeared.
Damn, it was something wrong in the exit paper curvature, but this is strange because it was happening in the first part of the sheet and not in the second half, when a lot of sheet is already outside...
In the last sheet I tried to put two A4 paper boxes (stacked one above the other) full inside the output tray to ensure an absolutely crazy level of planarity for the paper output path and it worked good.
Unluckily I still had to switch to another paper for the job. So I bought an A3+ box of HM Photo Silk Baryta, I made a new full custom profile with Argyll. The appearance and the measured results were really good so I decided to go with this paper for the task.
I used the same settings for platen gap/thickness and the "two stacked A4 boxes" workaround: all went perfect without issues.
Now I always put the two A4 boxes in the output tray for every print I make.
I have the impression that sometimes maybe I hear a very very subtle quite inaudible suspicious noise, but the prints were always perfect.
I remember in the early days to have ended to throw in the garbage a full A3 box of HM Photo Rag Pearl (what a pain!) because it was simply impossible to get the heads not hitting the paper whatever the settings. In that case the paper was maybe somewhat curved and so I thought it was something related to this.
More recently I lost confidence even in the HM Photo Rag Baryta because even this paper sometimes made me bad jokes. Probably the cotton papers are more critical for planarity and leaving them for a while could make the thing even worse, I don't know.
Now I'm sure that the sheet planarity has a decisive role, but even the bad designed (at least in the R3000) output path, which allows an unavoidable slight weird bending in the paper by not sustaining it properly, is something to pay attention too.
Just my humble experience, I hope it could help.
Ciao :)
Andrea
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any other papers that resemble those characteristics
Alternatively, one could use "weight" to refer to weight, and "thickness" to refer to thickness.
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(...)
In the last sheet I tried to put two A4 paper boxes (stacked one above the other) full inside the output tray to ensure an absolutely crazy level of planarity for the paper output path and it worked good.
(...)
I remember in the early days to have ended to throw in the garbage a full A3 box of HM Photo Rag Pearl (what a pain!) because it was simply impossible to get the heads not hitting the paper whatever the settings. In that case the paper was maybe somewhat curved and so I thought it was something related to this.
Andrea
(...)
I've had similar problems with the R3000; usually near the trailing edge and sometimes smearing down the edges. I never got a clean print with HM Photo Rag Pearl, which I tried on the recommendation of Mark from Aardenburg Imaging. I did mat and frame one print, using the mat to cover the smeared edges. I didn't like the appearance of the print anyway, and Mark later said that the paper doesn't work well with Ultrachrome K3 inks. I agree.
For some reason, I've had fewer head strikes using the sheet feeder, especially with Canson Baryta which is my favorite paper. My support system uses a couple of padding mailing envelopes in the output tray. I picked them because I thought the surface would allow the paper to slide with less resistance than the boxes would provide. Because of the paper-handling problem, I'd be inclined to choose the PRO-1000 over the P800 if I go bigger.
(http://)
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I had a similar issue last month with my out of warranty R3000.
On my R3000 this was handled by using a wide platen gap and appropriate paper thickness setting. I think you may have a misaligned feed system.
On my P800 printer, it is a different story I think. It had "issues" from day one. This last head strike issues just finished it off. Right from the start it had a bias of image placement "to the left" (so either the left border on a landscape print, or the top border on a portrait orientation print) of just over 1/32" and drove me nuts (I print with even borders around the actual image and am kinda fussy about this). I ended up "solving" this problem by having all my print templates in LR "fudged" the right amount on the border settings to compensate. Not, a great solution, but it worked. This printer also had the habit of skewing the image on the paper about every 4th print or so when using the top feed and U Premium Luster. And this with me being very assiduous about only loading one sheet at a time, and making sure the paper was square to the feed mechanism. I'm pretty deliberate in my printing habits. The skew was minor, but ruined prints that were not going to be matted and framed.
After reading Mark's counsel about using the Fine Art feed for Canson Baryta and Ilford GFS (and the like) I started using the "proper" feed for those papers and voila, head strikes. That finished me off and I called Epson. I'm grateful for Mark's counsel in other threads that lead me to quit putting up with this printer's errant ways!
My working theory is that the whole paper feed assembly is misaligned relative to the print-head carriage (if that's even the right terminology). As I mentioned, when I related this series of issues to the Epson representative and that I was using proper "operator parameters" re paper thickness etc., they didn't even ask follow up questions and agreed with me straight away that it was a mechanical problem.
@kjkahn - I think any mfg will have examples that are out of tolerance for one reason or another. It could even happen post QC and during shipping and handling. All of my Epson printers, save this one, have been flawless. The Canon printer looks nice, but the limit on paper size is a major take down for me. I, and my clients, often print panoramas and the roll paper adapter and ability to print panoramas of some length are very important in my work.
Sorry for the shaggy dog story here, but I thought my experience might be helpful for someone else.
Rand
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Sorry for the shaggy dog story here, but I thought my experience might be helpful for someone else.
Rand
Well, with your avatar being the head of a dog, what else should we expect? :-)
OK joking aside, no need to apologize. But yes, one of the more useful things about this forum is sharing experience.
I suspect rough handling in transportation is the most likely cause of these kind of issues. Hope your next one works well. Let us know.
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Well, with your avatar being the head of a dog, what else should we expect? :-)
OK joking aside, no need to apologize. But yes, one of the more useful things about this forum is sharing experience.
I suspect rough handling in transportation is the most likely cause of these kind of issues. Hope your next one works well. Let us know.
Mark,
Thanks! But my avatar is a coyote! As in crafty! LOL This particular critter ended up in my back yard and decided to pose for me "straight-on" (very unusual for coyotes).
(https://rsadams.smugmug.com/Animals/Unsorted-Animals/i-hSw257D/1/XL/Coyote-XL.jpg)
This web site has taught me almost everything I know about digital photography, and I'm profoundly grateful for folk like you, Jeff, Michael, Eric Chan, Andrew Rodney, and a host of others who have helped me along the way over many years now.
Rand
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Thanks. That is one terrific photo!
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[quoteHope your next one works well. Let us know. ][/quote]
The new P800 arrived last evening. I have it set up and tested and all is well. No issues.
BUT, here's an interesting side note that reflects on the video review. In your video there is reference to taking off the roll feed adapter when using the Fine Art Feed. I posted in the "About" thread on the review that this wasn't necessary and that it worked just fine w/ the adapter in place. Jeff responded that after the video shoot you all discovered this, but that it was a tight fit. Well, guess what, with the roll feed adapter attached to my new P800 there's no way to get the Fine Art Feed holder open in the back. There's interference on the left side where the holder assembly "just" prevents it opening and extending. So, physical tolerances are not that great. It looks as though it was designed to allow it to open while attached, but from example to example there variance. Makes me grumpy because I'd just as soon leave it in place and not have to fiddle with "on and off" (especially given the fragility of the little holder tabs which seem very undersized for the size/weight of the adapter). So... minor 'arrrgh...." here, but since I'm up and running w/o skewing problems, head strikes, etc., I'm not going to complain. I might even break out the Dremel tool an have a go at the adapter to see if I can create sufficient clearance. It is "very" close.
Rand
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Great! Glad the basic problem is solved.
Yes, we noticed too the fit is tight, but we got it to work. Make sure you don't do the kind of damage that would give them an excuse to void the warranty.
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Great! Glad the basic problem is solved.
Yes, we noticed too the fit is tight, but we got it to work. Make sure you don't do the kind of damage that would give them an excuse to void the warranty.
Mark,
Yes, if I do anything at all it will be to the adapter and not the printer. Looks like I can remove just a little tiny bit of the casing to achieve clearance. I can actually get the door open if I honk on it a bit, but don't like things that don't operate smoothly.
UPDATE: I took a flat file to the edge of the adapter that meets the printer (that was causing the interference). There was a little ridge on the edge like a burr on a metal casting. I only had to use a few strokes of the file to remove the offending protrusion in the plastic casting and voila! Fine Art Feed on printer opens and closes w/o interference. I did nothing to the printer itself, so no warranty issues. So, if any of you get a roll adapter and it won't let the rear Fine Art Feed door open, take a look at the edges of the plastic "on the adapter" to see if there's any protrusion, burr, etc. A couple of judicious file strokes to the plastic on the adapter might solve the problem.
Rand
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I love my P 800 but have found that I also have head strikes with using heavy paper (300 gpm) on sizes larger than 8.5X11?? I use the from fine arts feeder, set platen gap to the suggested 4 and tried all the way to 15, make sure that the paper is not curled and sets flat in the feed guide...... And still get the same head strikes usuall nearer the starting and finish points.... If any one has any ideas other than sending it back please advise me thanks!, Phil
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Mark,
Yes, if I do anything at all it will be to the adapter and not the printer. Looks like I can remove just a little tiny bit of the casing to achieve clearance. I can actually get the door open if I honk on it a bit, but don't like things that don't operate smoothly.
UPDATE: I took a flat file to the edge of the adapter that meets the printer (that was causing the interference). There was a little ridge on the edge like a burr on a metal casting. I only had to use a few strokes of the file to remove the offending protrusion in the plastic casting and voila! Fine Art Feed on printer opens and closes w/o interference. I did nothing to the printer itself, so no warranty issues. So, if any of you get a roll adapter and it won't let the rear Fine Art Feed door open, take a look at the edges of the plastic "on the adapter" to see if there's any protrusion, burr, etc. A couple of judicious file strokes to the plastic on the adapter might solve the problem.
Rand
This is helpful - thanks Rand.
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I love my P 800 but have found that I also have head strikes with using heavy paper (300 gpm) on sizes larger than 8.5X11?? I use the from fine arts feeder, set platen gap to the suggested 4 and tried all the way to 15, make sure that the paper is not curled and sets flat in the feed guide...... And still get the same head strikes usuall nearer the starting and finish points.... If any one has any ideas other than sending it back please advise me thanks!, Phil
The problem could well be that if you are using a thick heavy paper, but you told the printer in Printer Settings>Media Type that you are using lighter thinner paper, the printer automatically adjusts to the Media Type selected, unless you over-ride these paper settings in the Advanced Media Control panel of the printer driver; in this case you need to set the platen gap to WIDE and the paper thickness to 4 or 5 if you are using say IGFS, Canson BP, Canson Platine or the like. Not clear from the above that this is what you did. Please verify, try it and let us know. Also, what exact paper are you using, and what paper selection did you make in Media Type?
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The problem could well be that if you are using a thick heavy paper, but you told the printer in Printer Settings>Media Type that you are using lighter thinner paper, the printer automatically adjusts to the Media Type selected, unless you over-ride these paper settings in the Advanced Media Control panel of the printer driver; in this case you need to set the platen gap to WIDE and the paper thickness to 4 or 5 if you are using say IGFS, Canson BP, Canson Platine or the like. Not clear from the above that this is what you did. Please verify, try it and let us know. Also, what exact paper are you using, and what paper selection did you make in Media Type?
I should add to the above, that in Media Type you always want to select the Epson paper whose surface characteristics match as closely as possible to the kind of paper you are actually printing with or what the instructions with the profile for that paper/P800 recommend; but for the luster-type papers, the only choice Epson provides that comes close is either Ultra Premium Photo Paper Luster or Semi-gloss. These are thinner, lighter papers than what you may be printing with. So the idea is that you want to preserve the correct Media Type setting for the profile, but in Advanced Media Control make sure you are properly compensating for the additional weight and thickness of the media you may be using.
I think it will be useful that Epson issue a driver update for the P800 including the Legacy papers as their own Media Types. I suspect this may help avoid some difficulties.
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Thanks Mark.. I have been careful to follow all the guidelines you pointed out. Im wondering if I place a piece of cardboard under the paper as it leaves the printer to support it from warping or whatever will make a difference? Ill play with it . I now have a roll of 66lb 266 GSM RR Palo Duro Satin in and it works wonderfully. I love the Epsom Luster paper 260 GSM but it only comes 16" not 17" Not sure why they offer it in 16" not 17"???
Thanks Again!!
Phil