Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: ErikKaffehr on February 02, 2016, 05:04:01 pm
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Hi,
Lot of good news, I would say. Some of them:
- Hasselblad moving back it's origins, all the company in one place in Gothenburg Sweden.
- Getting finances right
- Lot of R&D going on
- Interesting to hear that CFV backs are a major success
- Hasselblad may be aiming at a lower price point
- CMOS sensors are major focus - 100 MP coming but no hurry
- Institutional sales significant - he mentions multishot several times
- Revitalised interest in MFD - not least in China
- New entrants into the market, Pentax being an example. They here the same rumors as other.
Also seems that mr. Oosting is a rather hands on kind of manager.
As a small side comment, the 100 MP sensor by Phase One is a major step into right direction, not just because the 100 MP but foremost because it is full frame 645.
An interesting point mr Ousting said that there is a break point in pricing where cost of entry is acceptable and selling at that price point yields a lot of new sales. Hasselblad has lowered the price on the H5D and has problems to keep up with orders, a nice problem to have.
Best regards
Erik
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I'm glad this stuff is out in the open, perhaps I won't get any more PMs calling me a liar when I say Hasselblad has a bright future :)
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In my opinion, Hasselblad should go back to their roots with V mount, develop a modern 500 series camera (a la Hy6) with full frame 6x6 sensor and autofocus Zeiss lenses, and hopefully with backward compatibility. I think there's a lot of appetite for that.
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In my opinion, Hasselblad should go back to their roots with V mount, develop a modern 500 series camera (a la Hy6) with full frame 6x6 sensor and autofocus Zeiss lenses, and hopefully with backward compatibility. I think there's a lot of appetite for that.
You are suggesting a completely new system from the ground up, bodies and lenses.. Not going to happen.
You can still use V system (CFV) or a hybrid system V lenses on H body. But either way it's manual focus and I find hires digital really needs good AF.
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If Phase One can do it with their XF, why can't Hasselblad?
Zeiss has already produced autofocus version of V lenses for Sinar M system. They would gladly do it again if Hasselblad has a solid plan.
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BTW the interview is here:
https://luminous-landscape.com/interview-with-the-ceo-of-hasselblad-perry-oosting/
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Hi,
I don't think it is feasible to restart manufacturing an old mechanical system. The old workmanship is no longer available. It would just be a very expensive product without modern features.
Magnified live view make exact focusing easy, but it is no replacement for AF. I don't need AF for my stuff.
Hasselblad had great success with the VFC backs, they have sold 550000 V-series cameras they can be put on. Would they make full frame CMOS back for the V I would buy if it would fit my budget. Cropped frame is no go for me, because of lack of wide angle lenses.
Best regards
Erik
You are suggesting a completely new system from the ground up, bodies and lenses.. Not going to happen.
You can still use V system (CFV) or a hybrid system V lenses on H body. But either way it's manual focus and I find hires digital really needs good AF.
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Considering the limitations of traditional AF on large viewfinders (central point), the logical way forward for MF is high res EVF to enable accurate manual focusing.
The problem is that the current H platform probably doesn't allow this due to platform limitations while the XF apparently does.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Part of me wonders if they're working on a MF mirrorless system... I'm glad things are looking up, as despite my Mamiya 645AFD, I'm a huge Hasselblad fanboy. I have a shrine dedicated to them, now adorned with a 500C/M.
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I've hoped for years for Hasselblad to revamp the V system.
Different ideas have come like implementing an evf in place of the ground glass. For existing bodies perhaps a wirelees nfc from a cmos back to the evf. Getting rid of the mirror should be the easy part.
Eduardo
Considering the limitations of traditional AF on large viewfinders (central point), the logical way forward for MF is high res EVF to enable accurate manual focusing.
The problem is that the current H platform probably doesn't allow this due to platform limitations while the XF apparently does.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Some conclusions that can be safely made out of the interview are the following:
1. They are selling well (and making profits) at the moment so that they can afford to "take their time" with new products as to have them "done right"...
2. There will be lots of new products coming in 2016.... One should expect that "lots of" is more than three or four. Thus, I would expect them to:
a. Make their backs available for third party platforms (Doug already mentioned in another conversation that they are planning to release P1/Mamiya compatible backs).
b. The Sony 100mp sensor isn't the only new sensor they are considering.
3. Multishot ability of a sensor, is a major aspect when they consider a new sensor.
4. The phrases "we are currently focusing on the 50mp Sony sensor" and "the 40mp sensor had its cycle" confirms that they are moving the 50mp Sony sensor products as to be their entry level products (as many in different conversations have observed) making room for new (more than one) sensors (all Cmos) in the upper categories.
5. Pricing policy has indeed changed and will be a major factor with their future products (very good news as one would expect to force competition prices down too). Additionally they consider that better pricing widens the MF market in general as "it attracts more people" to the format" (that's right!). One can therefore conclude that will ignore direct competition pricing from here on (as they already do with their 50mp Sony sensor products), but they will price their future products for the point where high demand ensures maximum profitability.
6. They are designing their products (being advised by ambassadors) as to perform their best for many different types of photography (fashion, product, landscape, architecture, art reproduction etc...) and they select different ambassadors that specialize in the respective fields. Additionally, they "listen" to all other than ambassadors suggestions.
7. They would consider a FF 6x6 sensor for the V series, but they won't do so unless it is affordable (which is not the case currently and might not be the case in the near future either).
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Nice to hear that the rumors floating around saying that CFV is selling very well is true, as it probably means they will continue making these backs, and likely keep its competitive pricing which I would think is key to its success as the target group are enthusiasts rather than professionals.
I've watched the CFV series closely as I see it as a cost-effective alternative for tech cameras. Unfortunately those CMOS sensors don't work out for me, but just that they keep making the CFV is good news.
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Nice to hear that the rumors floating around saying that CFV is selling very well is true, as it probably means they will continue making these backs, and likely keep its competitive pricing which I would think is key to its success as the target group are enthusiasts rather than professionals.
I've watched the CFV series closely as I see it as a cost-effective alternative for tech cameras. Unfortunately those CMOS sensors don't work out for me, but just that they keep making the CFV is good news.
I guess that since they will be making backs for other camera platforms than Hasselblad H, it would be an obvious conclusion that "V-mount" would be supported on this series of backs.... I believe that the reintroduction of the CF series of backs (hopefully with adapter plates as it used to be) will cause a major boost to Hasselblad's sales as:
1. People will be able to retain their older platforms and series of lenses but have access to modern sensors (some with multishot ability too).
2. Hasselblad users will have a choice as to either select an H5, or alternatively choose an H5X with the same back fitted on.
3. People of different camera platforms will be attracted much better to the Hasselblad H platform for a future upgrade if they can retain their (interchangeable plate) back and gradually upgrade their platform to a modern one....
Closing the system, was Hasselblad's major marketing mistake during the past decade... Obviously "opening it back" (completely) should have exactly the opposite effect (especially now that the pricing policy has been revised completely). Additionally, opening the system back is of negligible financial cost to them, as the have the interface plates design and technology ready from the past and the backs are already in production for the H series....
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I think it's unlikely to see revamped oldies... the CFV back is an exception and I think it will stay with that.
In R&D I think they probably are putting in quite some effort into modernizing their back platform to get as smooth user interface as Phase One has. It's a significant effort, which still may not impress the regular users which are used to the development pace in consumer electronics. Phocus is still looking very old, it's a significant effort to get that up to speed as well. In other words much R&D may be spent on catching up rather than creating "new" things. Due to poor times earlier they've been forced to conserve and stay with old platforms.
They're a quite small company so don't expect too much to happen in a short period of time. Gradual evolutionary products is what I would expect, not anything revolutionary. There will be the 50MP 44x33 entry level and the 100MP 54x41 high end, and multishot version(s). You can call that "a lot of new products". I don't think we will see any additional sensor size (ie 49x37) as Sony would have to make one specifically only for Hasselblad, not enough business for that.
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I think it's unlikely to see revamped oldies... the CFV back is an exception and I think it will stay with that.
In R&D I think they probably are putting in quite some effort into modernizing their back platform to get as smooth user interface as Phase One has. It's a significant effort, which still may not impress the regular users which are used to the development pace in consumer electronics. Phocus is still looking very old, it's a significant effort to get that up to speed as well. In other words much R&D may be spent on catching up rather than creating "new" things. Due to poor times earlier they've been forced to conserve and stay with old platforms.
They're a quite small company so don't expect too much to happen in a short period of time. Gradual evolutionary products is what I would expect, not anything revolutionary. There will be the 50MP 44x33 entry level and the 100MP 54x41 high end, and multishot version(s). You can call that "a lot of new products". I don't think we will see any additional sensor size (ie 49x37) as Sony would have to make one specifically only for Hasselblad, not enough business for that.
Doug confirmed in another conversation that they've asked and now have access for P1/Mamiya interface as to offer backs for this platform. The rest of the interfaces are already known to them from the CF-back days as they haven't changed. As I said before and one can easily understand, there is negligible cost to them as to offer the backs they already develop for the H series for other platforms too and can only attract many more customers to the firm... I don't know a company that can expand significantly their customer base with very little effort required that wouldn't do so... If they'll (soon) be releasing backs for the P1/M645 camera platform why wouldn't they offer the backs for other platforms since there is no new research needed as to develop the interface? ....It doesn't make sense throwing customers "out of the window"... does it?
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Doug confirmed in another conversation that they've asked and now have access for P1/Mamiya interface as to offer backs for this platform. The rest of the interfaces are already known to them from the CF-back days as they haven't changed. As I said before and one can easily understand, there is negligible cost to them as to offer the backs they already develop for the H series for other platforms too and can only attract many more customers to the firm... I don't know a company that can expand significantly their customer base with very little effort required that wouldn't do so... If they'll (soon) be releasing backs for the P1/M645 camera platform why wouldn't they offer the backs for other platforms since there is no new research needed as to develop the interface? ....It doesn't make sense throwing customers "out of the window"... does it?
Getting the spec does not necessarily mean that they will do anything. I hope you're right though. I think making an M compatible back will be costly anyway as there's quite some work around having an extra product (testing, documentation etc) so they must have a strategy to sell a bunch. As Phase One's backs are considered more modern the only effective way they could compete in the M platform would be on price. I certainly would love to see that, but I wouldn't dare to consider it likely.
I think we'll see a lot of catching up, and less of surprising revolutionary products. That strategic partnership with the drone company DJI is interesting though, I wonder what that may lead to... Hasselblad has surprised before, so we'll see. I hope it's not a "Lunar" type of surprise though...
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Considering the limitations of traditional AF on large viewfinders (central point), the logical way forward for MF is high res EVF to enable accurate manual focusing.
I can see several ways to improve focusing precision with these high resolution sensors, but they all involve using the main sensor and so having no mirror in the way, and so would benefit from an EVF, even if only as an accessory for an SLR to improve the Live View mode experience:
- magnified live view for manual focusing
- on-sensor AF with CDAF and/or the newer in-sensor PDAF technology – which Sony has, so could offer in its larger-than-35mm-format sensors some day.
My bet is on CDAF, since AF speed is the main advantage of PDAF, and that seems a lower priority than accuracy in the larger formats, so the cost of modifying the sensor to add PDAF sensors is probably not worth it.
Apart from that, the main news from that Hssselblad interview for me is that Sony does indeed seem to plan on offering all its CMOS sensors to all makers, even if Phase One has a temporary exclusive, and the MF makes are all heading that way, phasing out CCDs. Given the higher overhead of developing each new CMOS sensor compared to CCDs, and thus the greater incentive to keep unit sales up for each sensor model (along with the desirability of matching wide-angle lens designs to a particular format size) I predict a settling on just these two sensor formats larger than 36x24mm: 54x40mm for approximately full 645 format and optimal usage of 645 lenses, and 44x33mm for lower cost "entry-level" options. (But always with Leica doing its own thing.) My only doubt is whether 44x33mm will persist or eventually get squeezed out for not offering a sufficient IQ advantage over the ever-improving 36x24mm offerings.
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Zeiss has already produced autofocus version of V lenses for Sinar M system. They would gladly do it again if Hasselblad has a solid plan.
Actually, they probably won't. Zeiss see there is not enough market share/production numbers for them in MF digital. They got burned with the Sinar-Zeiss lens line (just a hundred or so lenses) so I doubt they'll come back in again.
The only exception would be with a Sony MF camera - then they may be guaranteed the production numbers to make sense.
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Actually, they probably won't. Zeiss see there is not enough market share/production numbers for them in MF digital. They got burned with the Sinar-Zeiss lens line (just a hundred or so lenses) so I doubt they'll come back in again.
The only exception would be with a Sony MF camera - then they may be guaranteed the production numbers to make sense.
+1... I also believe they won't be back to MF lenses if only for the V system... If they had that in mind, they would have provided a wider than 40mm lens ages ago... After all, Hasselblad's decision to stop the V system, doesn't mean that Zeiss couldn't continue to make lenses for it... IMO, both V-camera and V-lenses production was stopped because there wasn't enough demand to support production and additionally, there was more than enough existing S/H marketing base as to support the ones that didn't want a platform change to other... I don't believe that Sony will ever be entering the MF market either, they simply won't compete with their own customers that buy their sensors... The only possibility (IMO) for Zeiss to re-enter the MF lenses market, is if the Contax 645 system will be resurrected as the Contax name is of Zeiss ownership and there is no more financial rights obligation to Kyocera for the resurrection from this year on, since the 10 years required from production by the international law has expired a month ago by the 31st of December 2015....
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I'd be extremely happy for a 54X40 sensor mounted on a rotating platform inside a CFV back. :D
Eduardo
Some conclusions that can be safely made out of the interview are the following:
7. They would consider a FF 6x6 sensor for the V series, but they won't do so unless it is affordable (which is not the case currently and might not be the case in the near future either).
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My only doubt is whether 44x33mm will persist or eventually get squeezed out for not offering a sufficient IQ advantage over the ever-improving 36x24mm offerings.
....or it may be the other way around... meaning 54x40.5 being squeezed out for not offering sufficient IQ advantage over the 44x33 sensors...
Mind you that 44x33 sensors are in much more demand than 54x40.5 ones for some years now and Hasselblad's sales for 2015 were almost entirely 44x33 sensors... add to that P645 sales... In addition, 44x33 sensors are much more friendly with image circles when used with tech camera for movements, they are much cheaper, they use the best part of the lens glass and with 24mm lenses around from almost all makers, they provide WA view ability better than ever when compared to any system from the film days...
May be at the end of the day 48/9x36/7 sensors will prove the optimum in size for digital as they are both friendly with image circles of lenses for tech cameras, they leave out exactly the part of lenses that is better left out thus making systems "aperture faster", they cost almost as much as 44x33 sensors and they can go UWA with 24mm lenses... In fact, it won't surprise me if Hasselblad introduces that size a sensor as being "intermediate" to their 44x33 and upcoming 54x40.9 one... After all, they have a tradition of big sales for this size of sensor with all their 22mp,39mp and 50mp Kodak sensors selling better than their cheaper 44x33 ones...
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....or it may be the other way around... meaning 54x40.5 being squeezed out for not offering sufficient IQ advantage over the 44x33 sensors...
Mind you that 44x33 sensors are in much more demand than 54x40.5 ones for some years now and Hasselblad's sales for 2015 were almost entirely 44x33 sensors... add to that P645 sales... In addition, 44x33 sensors are much more friendly with image circles when used with tech camera for movements, they are much cheaper, they use the best part of the lens glass and with 24mm lenses around from almost all makers, they provide WA view ability better than ever when compared to any system from the film days...
May be at the end of the day 48/9x36/7 sensors will prove the optimum in size for digital as they are both friendly with image circles of lenses for tech cameras, they leave out exactly the part of lenses that is better left out thus making systems "aperture faster", they cost almost as much as 44x33 sensors and they can go UWA with 24mm lenses... In fact, it won't surprise me if Hasselblad introduces that size a sensor as being "intermediate" to their 44x33 and upcoming 54x40.9 one... After all, they have a tradition of big sales for this size of sensor with all their 22mp,39mp and 50mp Kodak sensors selling better than their cheaper 44x33 ones...
For what it's worth most of our sales (unit sales and revenue wise) in 2015 were full frame sensors. But at Phase One we have nine back models we commonly sell with full frame sensors and only three crop sensor backs.
With the demand we are seeing for new IQ3 100mp I suspect the same thing will be true (for Phase One) in 2016. Given the dominant market share Phase One has, I suspect most backs sold in 2016 will be full frame, but it's obviously only speculation.
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Hi,
I sort of agree regarding the 33x44 mm sensors. A great sensor but it needs ultra wides designed for it. I guess that the main reason for them is affordability.
Looking at Phase One, they have a high end CMOS offering at 100 MP full frame and a high end CMOS offering in crop frame. The IQ 360 (?) is a full frame CCD back sitting in between.
So the 60 MP CCD back is in an interesting position…
Best regards
Erik
I can see several ways to improve focusing precision with these high resolution sensors, but they all involve using the main sensor and so having no mirror in the way, and so would benefit from an EVF, even if only as an accessory for an SLR to improve the Live View mode experience:
- magnified live view for manual focusing
- on-sensor AF with CDAF and/or the newer in-sensor PDAF technology – which Sony has, so could offer in its larger-than-35mm-format sensors some day.
My bet is on CDAF, since AF speed is the main advantage of PDAF, and that seems a lower priority than accuracy in the larger formats, so the cost of modifying the sensor to add PDAF sensors is probably not worth it.
Apart from that, the main news from that Hssselblad interview for me is that Sony does indeed seem to plan on offering all its CMOS sensors to all makers, even if Phase One has a temporary exclusive, and the MF makes are all heading that way, phasing out CCDs. Given the higher overhead of developing each new CMOS sensor compared to CCDs, and thus the greater incentive to keep unit sales up for each sensor model (along with the desirability of matching wide-angle lens designs to a particular format size) I predict a settling on just these two sensor formats larger than 36x24mm: 54x40mm for approximately full 645 format and optimal usage of 645 lenses, and 44x33mm for lower cost "entry-level" options. (But always with Leica doing its own thing.) My only doubt is whether 44x33mm will persist or eventually get squeezed out for not offering a sufficient IQ advantage over the ever-improving 36x24mm offerings.
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Considering the limitations of traditional AF on large viewfinders (central point), the logical way forward for MF is high res EVF to enable accurate manual focusing.
This is quite strange. With the present H camera, I just need to point the central point at the part I want in focus, press the focus button and voilà! it is pin-sharp, even if I recompose the picture. Why would I need to concern myself with manual focus?
The problem is that the current H platform probably doesn't allow this due to platform limitations while the XF apparently does.
I'll tell you a little secret: Hasselblad cameras have had a live view mode for manual focus for the last ten years. It needs Phocus to work, it looks ugly, but it is here. So the camera is not a problem.
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Actually, you can live view with all the H cameras even if you use an H1, 2, 4x, etc... with a Phase back. When hooked up to C1, go into live viewmode and just put the Hassy body in mirror up. I do this all the time. It's crude, but then again, all the P-backs with tethered live view were crude. I really love the Hasselblad system. I just never liked the H3D backs so I went with Phase for a sensor.
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For what it's worth most of our sales (unit sales and revenue wise) in 2015 were full frame sensors. But at Phase One we have nine back models we commonly sell with full frame sensors and only three crop sensor backs.
With the demand we are seeing for new IQ3 100mp I suspect the same thing will be true (for Phase One) in 2016. Given the dominant market share Phase One has, I suspect most backs sold in 2016 will be full frame, but it's obviously only speculation.
it is explainable... since Hasselblad and P645 dominated the 44x33 sales, P1 was left with the rest... I guess it will last for a while until there is competition with larger sensors...
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Shame about Zeiss & V lenses - I would pay a obscene amount of money for a updated autofocus version of the 110/2. What a magical lens.
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Shame about Zeiss & V lenses - I would pay a obscene amount of money for a updated autofocus version of the 110/2. What a magical lens.
The 100 2.2 is quite nice just FYI.
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Hi,
It is my understanding that Zeiss is out of the MF business, but that decision may of course be reverted if demand is high enough and Zeiss is asked to build lenses.
The good thing is that mr Ousting pointed out that 550 000 V-series cameras have been sold and that represents a significant market for digital backs. The FVC backs have been a great financial success.
With live view, focusing is easy, at least for static objects. I would not be horribly surprised if Hasselblad developed an EVF-body for the V-series lenses. It is a no brainer. You just need to add a device to cock and release a shutter.
Best regards
Erik
Shame about Zeiss & V lenses - I would pay a obscene amount of money for a updated autofocus version of the 110/2. What a magical lens.
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You just need to add a device to cock and release a shutter.
You know that already exists right Erik?
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The one thing I never got from the interview is the relationship with Fuji regarding the H platform. My understanding is that Fuji manufactures the H system and lenses for Hasselblad and sells the camera in Japan under the Fuji brand. Now that they are bringing back 'all the company in one place' does that include manufacturing? Mr Oosting mentioned the benefit of Swedish craftmanship (something I agree with).
So, can someone (maybe from Hasselblad in Sweden?) explain the relationship with Fuji? Specifically licensing & manufacturing including with 3rd parties (e.g. Zeiss).
Thank You.
Hi,
Lot of good news, I would say. Some of them:
- Hasselblad moving back it's origins, all the company in one place in Gothenburg Sweden.
- Getting finances right
- Lot of R&D going on
- Interesting to hear that CFV backs are a major success
- Hasselblad may be aiming at a lower price point
- CMOS sensors are major focus - 100 MP coming but no hurry
- Institutional sales significant - he mentions multishot several times
- Revitalised interest in MFD - not least in China
- New entrants into the market, Pentax being an example. They here the same rumors as other.
Also seems that mr. Oosting is a rather hands on kind of manager.
As a small side comment, the 100 MP sensor by Phase One is a major step into right direction, not just because the 100 MP but foremost because it is full frame 645.
An interesting point mr Ousting said that there is a break point in pricing where cost of entry is acceptable and selling at that price point yields a lot of new sales. Hasselblad has lowered the price on the H5D and has problems to keep up with orders, a nice problem to have.
Best regards
Erik
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Hi,
Fuji makes lenses for Hasselblad and I also guess most of the mechanical parts for the H-series. Hasselblad makes the shutters. Assembly is in Gothenburg, Sweden. Optical design is shared between Hasselblad and Fuji. My understanding is that Hasselblad makes the initial optical design but Fuji optimises it for production.
Fuji used to sell the H-series with Fuji nameplate in Japan, I don't know if they still do.
Best regards
Erik
The one thing I never got from the interview is the relationship with Fuji regarding the H platform. My understanding is that Fuji manufactures the H system and lenses for Hasselblad and sells the camera in Japan under the Fuji brand. Now that they are bringing back 'all the company in one place' does that include manufacturing? Mr Oosting mentioned the benefit of Swedish craftmanship (something I agree with).
So, can someone (maybe from Hasselblad in Sweden?) explain the relationship with Fuji? Specifically licensing & manufacturing including with 3rd parties (e.g. Zeiss).
Thank You.
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In my opinion, Hasselblad should go back to their roots with V mount, develop a modern 500 series camera (a la Hy6) with full frame 6x6 sensor and autofocus Zeiss lenses, and hopefully with backward compatibility. I think there's a lot of appetite for that.
+1
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The 100 2.2 is quite nice just FYI.
It's OK. It's nothing like the magic of the 100 planar though. Fuji Bokeh is very unattractive in my opinion.
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Shame about Zeiss & V lenses - I would pay a obscene amount of money for a updated autofocus version of the 110/2. What a magical lens.
+1
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Fuji make the lenses and viewfinder (i.e. all the glass bits) to Hasselblad design, (I assume with their expertise Fujinon will have some input too.
The shutters and bodies are made in Sweden
The backs were being made in Denmark but now Sweden.
Fuji did have the rights for a while to sell a Fuji branded 645 in Japan but i think this is no longer the case, I will check.
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Thanks for the responses so far. Regarding lenses, could anyone license the H mount and related tech and manufacture lenses for the H ? e.g., what Zeiss does with Canon/Nikon etc.
Fuji make the lenses and viewfinder (i.e. all the glass bits) to Hasselblad design, (I assume with their expertise Fujinon will have some input too.
The shutters and bodies are made in Sweden
The backs were being made in Denmark but now Sweden.
Fuji did have the rights for a while to sell a Fuji branded 645 in Japan but i think this is no longer the case, I will check.
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Hi,
Some small observations:
Mr. Oosten discussed the cooperation with DJI and made it pretty clear that it was not about a specific product. He talked much about the engineering competence of DJI, so it may be presumed that DJI may do some development work for Hasselblad.
There was also a discussion about aerial photography, business opportunity where Hasselblad is engaged.
It seems that Hasselblad is also heavily engaged in "institutional photography", just like Phase One. In that area they have the advantage of multishot techniques.
Much interesting was that mr Oosten discussed the price point. He said that there is a significant interest in photography in China. It was also discussed that many photographers are willing to buy into MFD, but at a lower price point than the usual one.
I would assume that Hasselblad may choose to have significantly lower prices on some systems than Phase One. They obviously do that with the CFV backs and that has been a great success.
Interesting stuff… I would say really good news for Hasselblad.
Best regards
Erik
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Fuji make the lenses and viewfinder (i.e. all the glass bits) to Hasselblad design, (I assume with their expertise Fujinon will have some input too.
The shutters and bodies are made in Sweden
The backs were being made in Denmark but now Sweden.
Fuji did have the rights for a while to sell a Fuji branded 645 in Japan but i think this is no longer the case, I will check.
Its only prediction who makes what with Hassy... but traditionally, Hassy never made lenses (Zeiss did in the past) and thus one could assume that they just didn't learn how to do great lenses... they just found another deal with Fuji (another traditional maker of great lenses) and they moved ahead with the H system... OTH it is reasonable from the H body functioning, for one to conclude that it is an 100% Hassy design... It's got LS and its got the "closets" to seal the light sensitive area as all Hasselblad (and no other) traditionally does...
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In my opinion, Hasselblad should go back to their roots with V mount, develop a modern 500 series camera (a la Hy6) with full frame 6x6 sensor and autofocus Zeiss lenses, and hopefully with backward compatibility. I think there's a lot of appetite for that.
Hmmm, not sure I would really like that. I think the Fuji designed lenses and coatings for H mount are pretty kick ass. The EBC coatings and Fuji lenses are pretty much the entire reason I went with the H system. I Originally shot with a Fuji gx680 and nothing can beat it on the "3d" feel, color and contrast. However, the H lenses come very very close. If anything, I think its the lenses that are Hasselblad's strongest points. Screw this digital back stuff. They need to made a special adapter to use the H lenses on sony mount with a built in focal reducer and retain the leaf shutter ability. I would gladly pay the premium. I would be able to get a medium format look and leaf shutter for my flash work all on sony e mount. Sorry for the tangent
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I picked up on the price argument too and was glad to hear it. It's what many people here have been saying/shouting/arguing for quite some time. But I'm not sure how they will accomplish that as Swedish craftsmanship isn't and shouldn't be cheap. But I hope this doesn't mean that they take the IKEA business model of selling you the parts and tools to assemble it yourself!
Hi,
Much interesting was that mr Oosten discussed the price point. He said that there is a significant interest in photography in China. It was also discussed that many photographers are willing to buy into MFD, but at a lower price point than the usual one.
I would assume that Hasselblad may choose to have significantly lower prices on some systems than Phase One. They obviously do that with the CFV backs and that has been a great success.
Best regards
Erik
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Hi,
I don't think so. The Hasselblad H system has always been reasonably priced, in part due to the cooperation between Fuji and Hasselblad.
What is expensive with MFD are the backs. Now, making an affordable MFD is no rocket engineering, at least not now days. With the older CCD technology there was a lot of analogue design and that part is both complex and difficult.
With the Sony CMOS that all MFD vendors except Leica use most of the hard work had done by Sony. The sensor delivers a digital signal out from the chip.
The back still needs the processing power and firmware to process all the data and this is an area where Phase One excels with the IQ-series.
I am 90% certain that a 50 MP cropped sensor could be made at 50k€ and sold with some profits, but significant sales are needed to finance the RND. From what mr Oosten says in the interview I would be pretty sure that DJI will share some RND with Hasselblad.
I would presume that Hasselblad aims to have a pricing that is quiet a bit below Phase One, but high enough to make good commercial sense. That price point depends much on their production capability.
Best regards
Erik
I picked up on the price argument too and was glad to hear it. It's what many people here have been saying/shouting/arguing for quite some time. But I'm not sure how they will accomplish that as Swedish craftsmanship isn't and shouldn't be cheap. But I hope this doesn't mean that they take the IKEA business model of selling you the parts and tools to assemble it yourself!
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I picked up on the price argument too and was glad to hear it. It's what many people here have been saying/shouting/arguing for quite some time. But I'm not sure how they will accomplish that as Swedish craftsmanship isn't and shouldn't be cheap. But I hope this doesn't mean that they take the IKEA business model of selling you the parts and tools to assemble it yourself!
Is this a joke? ...or are you among the masochists who enjoy to pay for equipment three times the price of what it should be priced? ...that's what was happening with MF equipment until last year and its superb news that one of the makers that was following that practice decided different, leaving only one maker stealing people and damaging MF market expansion... Do you really think that 12.5K for an H5-50c is cheap? ....Well, Hasselblad makes a profit out of it as the product doesn't cost a penny more than H5-40 to make, but Hassy is selling 20 times as many at 25% higher price than what H5-40 used to sell....
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Do you really think that 12.5K for an H5-50c is cheap?
Well I do.
I payed well over twice that for my first 6MP back.
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Well I do.
I payed well over twice that for my first 6MP back.
From the wikipedia, about the IBM PC :
"Although the TV-compatible video board, cassette port and Federal Communications Commission Class B certification were all aimed at making it a home computer,[99] the original PC proved too expensive for the home market. At introduction, a PC with 64 kB of RAM and a single 5.25-inch floppy drive and monitor sold for US $3,005 (equivalent to $7,822 in 2016)"
I will say: the competitive landscape has changed big time.The difference between a 22 pixels back with large photo-sites and a 3 or 6 mp CCD based, crop sensor DSLR was like night and day. Money for ads were plenty and and talking about Sports Illustrated if firing all the photographers, crazy talk.
The point is: there is a need to differentiate your work as much as you can. MF is a way and a good priced system could become attractive. Maybe is too little too late, but we will see.
Best regards,
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Hi,
This is something that mr Oosten also touches on in the interview. It seems that a lot of young photographers are craving for MFD, it is seen as the Really Right Stuff, just like RRS :-).
I don't know how much sense MFD actually makes. One way to see it is that a camera is just a tool delivering an image with a given quality. If you can make that image with a cell phone, 4/3, APS-C, 24x36, crop MFD or MFD may matter little. But, everything being equal and DoF/diffraction not taken into account a larger format always have a potential to deliver more.
Best regards
Erik
From the wikipedia, about the IBM PC :
"Although the TV-compatible video board, cassette port and Federal Communications Commission Class B certification were all aimed at making it a home computer,[99] the original PC proved too expensive for the home market. At introduction, a PC with 64 kB of RAM and a single 5.25-inch floppy drive and monitor sold for US $3,005 (equivalent to $7,822 in 2016)"
I will say: the competitive landscape has changed big time.The difference between a 22 pixels back with large photo-sites and a 3 or 6 mp CCD based, crop sensor DSLR was like night and day. Money for ads were plenty and and talking about Sports Illustrated if firing all the photographers, crazy talk.
The point is: there is a need to differentiate your work as much as you can. MF is a way and a good priced system could become attractive. Maybe is too little too late, but we will see.
Best regards,
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What attracted my attention most, is that Mr. Oosten seems very skeptical for using Sony's 100mp sensor right now although he made clear that they have access to the sensor and very good corporation with Sony. He said that they "will be using 100mp resolution at some point but its got to be done right...." Since he also said that "there are lots of new products that will be introduced in the following 10 months", it may mean that the use of the Sony 100mp sensor won't be among the "lots of new releases" since the phrase "at some point" is different to the "next to be introduced"... If this is the case, it means that Hasselblad will use another sensor for next in the line to the 50mp one and use a FF 100mp sensor later on as being top of the line....
But... if they do so, it means that they are developing an exclusive to them sensor as there is no other than the two Sony sensors accessible in the "open sensor" market...
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Yes.
Is this a joke?
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Not cheap, but not bad either.
Do you really think that 12.5K for an H5-50c is cheap?
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Hi,
Hasselblad cannot afford to stay behind to long, if they plan to use 100 MP they need to present a roadmap. The main reason is that their present CMOS offering is crop frame. The other reason is that they probably don't want to be behind Phase One.
Now, the 100 MP sensor delivers at least twice the amount of data compared to the older sensors, so Hasselblad needs to beef up processing capability. This is really an effort Phase One made with the original IQ series.
Some of Hasselblad's lenses are calculated for crop frame, they need to recalculate some lenses to cover full frame 645. All that takes some time.
I would guess that we are going to see some roadmap pretty soon.
Another guess I have that Hasselblad is going to set their cameras at a somewhat lower price point. Just as an example:
- Entry level system at 10k€, because I guess that 10k€ will attract a lot of buyers
- Mid range system at 25k€ (based on 100 MP sensor)
- Multishot system at 40k€ also based on the 100 MP sensor
- Present a roadmap in April and offer an affordable upgrade path for all models sold after 1-st of May.
Best regards
Erik
What attracted my attention most, is that Mr. Oosten seems very skeptical for using Sony's 100mp sensor right now although he made clear that they have access to the sensor and very good corporation with Sony. He said that they "will be using 100mp resolution at some point but its got to be done right...." Since he also said that "there are lots of new products that will be introduced in the following 10 months", it may mean that the use of the Sony 100mp sensor won't be among the "lots of new releases" since the phrase "at some point" is different to the "next to be introduced"... If this is the case, it means that Hasselblad will use another sensor for next in the line to the 50mp one and use a FF 100mp sensor later on as being top of the line....
But... if they do so, it means that they are developing an exclusive to them sensor as there is no other than the two Sony sensors accessible in the "open sensor" market...
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just out of interest. Why would you expect a company, in a competitive market, to publish a roadmap for it's future products?
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Hasselblad cannot afford to stay behind to long.......
Who told you that by not offering the 100mp sensor makes them "stay behind"? ....I suggest you look back to the interview, Mr. Oosten clearly thinks (and he is right - people in Leica/Sinar also think exactly the same) that 100mp can only be useful with demanding stills (i.e. reproduction work)and they already offer 200mp of true color for that... Besides, Hasselblad MS backs only cost (traditionally) 5K more than their respective single shot ones...
Now, if you watch back the interview, you may spot the point where Mr.Oosten states that "they are struggling to keep up with demand" with the H5-50c (he also states that demand exceeded their expectations)... which may well mean that they are now selling better than ever... I assure you that Sony's 100mp sensor will be only a small fraction of the total sales of the MF market... I can also assure you that out of the possible customers, one will struggle to find any pros...
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Hi,
OK, you put down serious money on an MFD system. Would you buy into a system just offering 1.3X crop CMOS at 50 MP and without any roadmap for the future or with one offering both 50 MP crop frame and 100 MP full frame?
That roadmap thing is important, buyers need to now where a company is heading.
The other thing is that mr Oosting actually said they will support the Sony 100 MP sensor, so the question is not 'if' but 'when'.
Best regards
Erik
Who told you that by not offering the 100mp sensor makes them "stay behind"? ....I suggest you look back to the interview, Mr. Oosten clearly thinks (and he is right - people in Leica/Sinar also think exactly the same) that 100mp can only be useful with demanding stills (i.e. reproduction work)and they already offer 200mp of true color for that... Besides, Hasselblad MS backs only cost (traditionally) 5K more than their respective single shot ones...
Now, if you watch back the interview, you may spot the point where Mr.Oosten states that "they are struggling to keep up with demand" with the H5-50c (he also states that demand exceeded their expectations)... which may well mean that they are now selling better than ever... I assure you that Sony's 100mp sensor will be only a small fraction of the total sales of the MF market... I can also assure you that out of the possible customers, one will struggle to find any pros...
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Hi,
OK, you put down serious money on an MFD system. Would you buy into a system just offering 1.3X crop CMOS at 50 MP and without any roadmap for the future or with one offering both 50 MP crop frame and 100 MP full frame?
That roadmap thing is important, buyers need to now where a company is heading.
The other thing is that mr Oosting actually said they will support the Sony 100 MP sensor, so the question is not 'if' but 'when'.
Best regards
Erik
He never said that they will be supporting the Sony 100mp sensor (look it back)... What he said, is that they have access to it and that they will eventually use an 100mp sensor at some point... You seem to be sure that there will be no other Cmos sensors coming than Sony... what makes you so sure? ;)
IMO, Hasselblad won't be releasing only one more sensor (which might or might not be the Sony 100mp one), but there will be at least one more, exclusive to them sensor... In fact, it won't surprise me at all if they first release an intermediate to the the two Sony sensors exclusive to them sensor and then either expand the same to FF for their top model, or use the 100mp Sony sensor...
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Listen one more time, he says: Well, absolutely! Than he elaborates on sensor grades and says electronics need to be redesigned the amount of data and it needs to be done the right way.
Best regards
Erik
He never said that they will be supporting the Sony 100mp sensor (look it back)... What he said, is that they have access to it and that they will eventually use an 100mp sensor at some point... You seem to be sure that there will be no other Cmos sensors coming than Sony... what makes you so sure? ;)
IMO, Hasselblad won't be releasing only one more sensor (which might or might not be the Sony 100mp one), but there will be at least one more, exclusive to them sensor... In fact, it won't surprise me at all if they first release an intermediate to the the two Sony sensors exclusive to them sensor and then either expand the same to FF for their top model, or use the 100mp Sony sensor...
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Listen one more time, he says: Well, absolutely! Than he elaborates on sensor grades and says electronics need to be redesigned the amount of data and it needs to be done the right way.
Best regards
Erik
He never said that the electronics need to be redesigned... what he practically says is that the quality of a camera is the total thing (lenses, sensor and electronic control of the (increasded) aberrations, so one has to be careful as to do it right... Also... his name is Oosten... you better edit it as to correct it. The "well absolutely" phrase goes with "we will be releasing an 100mp sensor at some point"... I believe it is not a priority to them because they feel (rightfully) that there is very little financial interest behind the 100mp sensor due to the very limited number of customers that would be interested...
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They've had at least four years to redesign their electronics. In fact I would bet that they got the specs of the 100MP interfaces at the same time as they got the 50MP ones. What is really happening is that at some point they need some major redo to turn the H into a mirrorless system with main sensor focus, and such a body is just a dumb box with a lensmount an EVF and some buttons so the cost will go down substantially.
Interestingly, a liveview CMOS MF back Hasselblad camera could probably also take a really cheap 36x24 back or even various small square sensors eg 36x36 with minimal electronic redesign leaving space for a whole range of entry level Hasselblad products around $5K
Edmund
Listen one more time, he says: Well, absolutely! Than he elaborates on sensor grades and says electronics need to be redesigned the amount of data and it needs to be done the right way.
Best regards
Erik
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Hi,
You obviously did that part of the discussion. For your convenience here is a link for that part of the interview: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/Divstuff/HasselBladCEO.mov
He says "Well, absolutely!" as the first answer, talks about redesigning electronics, and finishes with "open to 100MP". The last part is not very firm of course.
Hopefully it is OK with LuLa to share a link to the cropped down interview.
Best regards
Erik
He never said that the electronics need to be redesigned... what he practically says is that the quality of a camera is the total thing (lenses, sensor and electronic control of the (increasded) aberrations, so one has to be careful as to do it right... Also... his name is Oosten... you better edit it as to correct it. The "well absolutely" phrase goes with "we will be releasing an 100mp sensor at some point"... I believe it is not a priority to them because they feel (rightfully) that there is very little financial interest behind the 100mp sensor due to the very limited number of customers that would be interested...
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Hi,
Both Phase One and Hasselblad have mirrorless cameras already, but those are intended for aerial photography.
Best regards
Erik
They've had at least four years to redesign their electronics. In fact I would bet that they got the specs of the 100MP interfaces at the same time as they got the 50MP ones. What is really happening is that at some point they need some major redo to turn the H into a mirrorless system with main sensor focus, and such a body is just a dumb box with a lensmount an EVF and some buttons so the cost will go down substantially.
Interestingly, a liveview CMOS MF back Hasselblad camera could probably also take a really cheap 36x24 back or even various small square sensors eg 36x36 with minimal electronic redesign leaving space for a whole range of entry level Hasselblad products around $5K
Edmund
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100MP very soon.
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Hi,
Yes, may be. But it is not just about 100 MP but also offering a very good CMOS sensor at full frame 645.
It also seems that the 100 MP full frame sensor is not only larger but also better, it seems to be the Sony sensor that delivers best DR per pixel right now. Probably better than the best 24x36 sensors of today. And that is not just marketing speak but confirmed from real world sample images.
Good stuff, even if it comes with hefty price tag.
Best regards
Erik
100MP very soon.
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Hi,
Both Phase One and Hasselblad have mirrorless cameras already, but those are intended for aerial photography.
Best regards
Erik
What Hassy doesn't have yet is a cheap 24x36 back. Same 2x crop as mirrorless micro 4/3
Edmund
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All successful companies in today's market, really successful billion dollar companies in electronics or DOT com are selling to the masses. The money is in billed monthly subscribers, it's not the iPhone itself. The vendors supplying parts or software, vendors involved with logistics, marketing and financial institutions all profit from a viral mass consumer want. Take that idea down to Hasselblad's company level and look forward from there, I don't see a big opportunity for Hasselblad to get that kind of market share. On the other hand the MFDB business is small but there is room for several to stay and gain market share by offering similar products at varying levels of price points. Now because of pressure from competitors the iPhone as well as the new H5D has a life cycle in sight, that means R&D needs to be working on new introductions that can keep a product viral. The V system might have been a lucky bandaid for them stay profitable while developing a viable strategy to survive (I hope) and the new CMOS but like the iPhone sales will become stagnant with out a product taking a new direction. Now that 100mp backs are real institutional customers might decide that multi shot is too much and they can live with one multi shot back which they already own and buy a couple of 100mp backs to do the grunt work, that's my guess!
The consumers demands and wants need to be granted for Hasselblad or anyone else to continue in today's market. Involvement of third parties, cooperative business with Sony, Panisonic and Fuji enables Hasselblad to answer the consumers wishes. Thinking about basic wants nothing has changed from the last century smaller is better, lighter is better, faster is better, simpler is better, more powerful is better, better looking, feeling and weatherproofing is better. Less expensive is better, to the masses. And to me a real viewfinder is better. Also digging through menus is not better buttons are. Small print dimly lit doesn't work for me either, in other words older people have different needs than 20 year old, and a little tip they also have more money so pull the chair out from under your F-IN R&D department and have them stand up working for hours like we do with a 5' tripod camera atop or have them walk around 5 days a week holding a H5D with a 120mm glass attached raising and lowering it 400-800 times a day and then let them tell me what a great piece of equipment they made and how they think Pigs can fly. People today you can have 10 frames a sec at 800mm for less weight and price of a Hasselblad lens that is something to pay attention to.
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Well, in a way, Hassy now have a chance to make themselves a new future.
1. The transition to mirrorless is where the future lies.
2. There is a supplier (Sony) commoditising the tech parts, so this is mainly a design job.
2. Sweden is nice for design and so they have a chance of creating a worthwhile concept rather than a fake SLR.
3. Hassy's new partner DJI knows all about making things small, light, cheap, and still tough, and linking devices seamlessly to phones and iPads.
Edmund
All successful companies in today's market, really successful billion dollar companies in electronics or DOT com are selling to the masses. The money is in billed monthly subscribers, it's not the iPhone itself. The vendors supplying parts or software, vendors involved with logistics, marketing and financial institutions all profit from a viral mass consumer want. Take that idea down to Hasselblad's company level and look forward from there, I don't see a big opportunity for Hasselblad to get that kind of market share. On the other hand the MFDB business is small but there is room for several to stay and gain market share by offering similar products at varying levels of price points. Now because of pressure from competitors the iPhone as well as the new H5D has a life cycle in sight, that means R&D needs to be working on new introductions that can keep a product viral. The V system might have been a lucky bandaid for them stay profitable while developing a viable strategy to survive (I hope) and the new CMOS but like the iPhone sales will become stagnant with out a product taking a new direction. Now that 100mp backs are real institutional customers might decide that multi shot is too much and they can live with one multi shot back which they already own and buy a couple of 100mp backs to do the grunt work, that's my guess!
The consumers demands and wants need to be granted for Hasselblad or anyone else to continue in today's market. Involvement of third parties, cooperative business with Sony, Panisonic and Fuji enables Hasselblad to answer the consumers wishes. Thinking about basic wants nothing has changed from the last century smaller is better, lighter is better, faster is better, simpler is better, more powerful is better, better looking, feeling and weatherproofing is better. Less expensive is better, to the masses. And to me a real viewfinder is better. Also digging through menus is not better buttons are. Small print dimly lit doesn't work for me either, in other words older people have different needs than 20 year old, and a little tip they also have more money so pull the chair out from under your F-IN R&D department and have them stand up working for hours like we do with a 5' tripod camera atop or have them walk around 5 days a week holding a H5D with a 120mm glass attached raising and lowering it 400-800 times a day and then let them tell me what a great piece of equipment they made and how they think Pigs can fly. People today you can have 10 frames a sec at 800mm for less weight and price of a Hasselblad lens that is something to pay attention to.
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All successful companies in today's market, really successful billion dollar companies in electronics or DOT com are selling to the masses. The money is in billed monthly subscribers, it's not the iPhone itself.
That really depends on the country. I think that in Europe the majority of customers buy the phone outright instead of adding it to a cellular service plan.
The vendors supplying parts or software, vendors involved with logistics, marketing and financial institutions all profit from a viral mass consumer want. Take that idea down to Hasselblad's company level and look forward from there, I don't see a big opportunity for Hasselblad to get that kind of market share.
In most large first world cities, MF cameras can be rented. Isn't that also a model where the consumer pays regular fees instead of a one-time payment?
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1. The transition to mirrorless is where the future lies.
I don't understand why you would say that.
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I don't understand why you would say that.
I'm not saying mirrorless is more pleasant to use.
If central-shutter or sensor electronic shutter is used, then mirrorless can however dispense with *all* the moving parts in a camera *body*. This makes the solution *cheap*. There is no need for careful calibration of the mirror mechanism, the viewfinder focus path and the AF focus path as in present-day dSLRs.
Edmund
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If central-shutter or sensor electronic shutter is used, then mirrorless can however dispense with *all* the moving parts in a camera *body*. This makes the solution *cheap*. There is no need for careful calibration of the mirror mechanism, the viewfinder focus path and the AF focus path as in present-day dSLRs.
I see. Do you think this is relevant for MF cameras? They don't really sell on price, would mirrorless be an argument for their intended market?
The same can be said for high-end sports cameras, like the Nikon D5 or Canon 1DX MII. They still use a classical mirror and AF mechanism, because the intended users are not prepared to make the compromises necessary for mirrorless and are ready to take into account the extra weight and price.
Very important for many MF users is a solid tethering mode and the capacity to display the shot image on an external screen. I would expect some improvements in that respect, namely the adoption of faster interfaces (USB 3.1, Thunderbolt). A decent liveview capability may also be in the works, some users would love that.
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Hi,
SLRs were introduced back in 1936, I think, with the intention of having "What You See is What You Get" viewing. So, something like 80 years of evolution of flipping mirror systems.
Now, there are a lot of problems with flipping mirror systems.
- Vibrations caused by mirror accelerating and stopping
- Mirror lag
- Need to keep mirror, sensor, AF-sensor and ground glass in exact register
- Cannot use contrast sensing AF
These issues are no great problem in studio, when shooting with electronic flash at small apertures, or when shooting fast action.
But, for shooting landscape and striving for best image quality you need to lock up mirror and used delayed shutter. Don't know about modern systems but my 555/ELD with a 120/4 at 1/125 doesn't yield useable sharpness without MLU, even if it used with a very sturdy tripod and an excellent head.
EVF has just been around for a few years, but essentially solves the issues with flipping mirror while inducing a few issues of it's own.
The advantages of EVF are:
- Essentially no vibrations when used with electronic first shutter curtain (EFCS).
- Low noise level
- Fast response time with EFCS
- Fast and accurate AF when combining PDAF and CDAF
- No need for AF adjustment
- Good visibility in dark environments
- Great flexibility, because of short flange distance
On the down side EVFs are lacking in density range and have viewing lag.
Best regards
Erik
I see. Do you think this is relevant for MF cameras? They don't really sell on price, would mirrorless be an argument for their intended market?
The same can be said for high-end sports cameras, like the Nikon D5 or Canon 1DX MII. They still use a classical mirror and AF mechanism, because the intended users are not prepared to make the compromises necessary for mirrorless and are ready to take into account the extra weight and price.
Very important for many MF users is a solid tethering mode and the capacity to display the shot image on an external screen. I would expect some improvements in that respect, namely the adoption of faster interfaces (USB 3.1, Thunderbolt). A decent liveview capability may also be in the works, some users would love that.
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Hi Edmund,
Good points.
But It would add that Hasselblad has a very competitive system in the H-series, especially if they can create an attractive pricing structure.
My understanding is that both CVF backs (for the V system) and low end H5D is selling well, so production is at maximum capacity.
Best regards
Erik
Well, in a way, Hassy now have a chance to make themselves a new future.
1. The transition to mirrorless is where the future lies.
2. There is a supplier (Sony) commoditising the tech parts, so this is mainly a design job.
2. Sweden is nice for design and so they have a chance of creating a worthwhile concept rather than a fake SLR.
3. Hassy's new partner DJI knows all about making things small, light, cheap, and still tough, and linking devices seamlessly to phones and iPads.
Edmund
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But, for shooting landscape and striving for best image quality you need to lock up mirror and used delayed shutter.
Yes, but in which respect is that a problem when shooting landscape?
The advantages of EVF are:
- Essentially no vibrations when used with electronic first shutter curtain (EFCS).
- Low noise level
- Fast response time with EFCS
- Fast and accurate AF when combining PDAF and CDAF
- No need for AF adjustment
- Good visibility in dark environments
- Great flexibility, because of short flange distance
Maybe, but is the advantage relevant for MF cameras? To take you list points one by one:
- MF have essentially no vibration when the mirror is raised and central shutter is used
- noise level is irrelevant in studio and landscape applications
- response time is fast with SLRs
- AF on MF cameras is sufficiently fast and accurate
- AF is calibrated at the factory in MF cameras
- the large ground glass of MF cameras is quite bright, and MF cameras are rarely used in dark environments
- you have even more flexibility because the back can be detached and mounted on a tech cam
The question remains: are the advantages relevant to the intended market? I believe they aren't.
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Honestly EVFs are awesome in most situations but I still prefer the OVF with its seemingly infinite refresh rate and dynamic range.
In the studio with dim modeling lights and shooting people (with flash obviously) OVFs rule.
For landscapes I dont even need a viewfinder most of the time. I use my Arca without one just fine. LV is very helpful though.
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Hi,
I was shooting in a few pretty dark churches in Alsace and in the Dolomites, and focusing with an OVF would have been a gamble but with EVF it was decent. The difference between visual and EVF was like somebody turned on the light.
So, modern EVF has it miracles. The main issue I have with EVF is that shadow detail is often bad, at least in bright light.
But, the great benefit of EVF is that you get rid of the mirror box and still have an accurate view. A camera without a mirror box can use a wide variety of lenses.
Best regards
Erik
Honestly EVFs are awesome in most situations but I still prefer the OVF with its seemingly infinite refresh rate and dynamic range.
In the studio with dim modeling lights and shooting people (with flash obviously) OVFs rule.
For landscapes I dont even need a viewfinder most of the time. I use my Arca without one just fine. LV is very helpful though.
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Honestly EVFs are awesome in most situations but I still prefer the OVF with its seemingly infinite refresh rate and dynamic range.
In the studio with dim modeling lights and shooting people (with flash obviously) OVFs rule.
For landscapes I dont even need a viewfinder most of the time. I use my Arca without one just fine. LV is very helpful though.
I'm not trying to defend the EVF vs the OVF; in fact I much prefer the OVF myself. However the reality is that the time for the EVF has come for anyone who doesn't want to occupy the obscene pricepoint niche of Phase.
An EVF Hassy design could
- take just about any lens with any flange distance, and any size sensor back by swapping backs and bodies like Lego.
- accomodate shift-backs
- supply mount points for viewfinders and audio.
- accept external batteries
- accept fast (cache) and secondary memory units, external image processors and viewfinder transmitters.
And this modularity is actually what the original Hasselblad design was all about. Think of Alpa, but as an SLR-like design with integrated electronic wiring, and electronic controls.
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Hi,
Alpa FPS has much of that…
Best regards
Erik
I'm not trying to defend the EVF vs the OVF; in fact I much prefer the OVF myself. However the reality is that the time for the EVF has come for anyone who doesn't want to occupy the obscene pricepoint niche of Phase.
An EVF Hassy design could
- take just about any lens with any flange distance, and any size sensor back by swapping backs and bodies like Lego.
- accomodate shift-backs
- supply mount points for viewfinders and audio.
- accept external batteries
- accept fast (cache) and secondary memory units, external image processors and viewfinder transmitters.
And this modularity is actually what the original Hasselblad design was all about. Think of Alpa, but as an SLR-like design with integrated electronic wiring, and electronic controls.
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Hi,
Alpa FPS has much of that…
Best regards
Erik
Yes, and the Alpa system has sold well. But the Alpa does not provide the electronic and power communication paths needed to make a modern camera work. Hassy already has an established electronic lens system, and backs, and even a perspective control system and GPS so they know how to create such a design. There is space on the market for a polymorphic still/video modular system, and Alpa are too limited, RED too specialised.
Edmund
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Personally I like using an OVF, but EVF = much less weight, which is a plus for those of us who like to hike places with our gear. (Says the guy lugging around a Linhof Techno outfit and massive tripod.)
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In the end it doesn't matter whether EV of OVF is "better", what matters is that users have the choice. Phase has a classic OVF system with center point AF, it is time for an OVF solution with main sensor AF and tablet-sized viewfinders to compete. EVF with a big external screen makes sense for many environments.
Edmund
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I will say, the EVF in my wife's Sony is quite impressive. I much prefer an OVF, but that's personal.
The other thing about that Sony is that not only does it not have a moving mirror (SLT), it has image stabilization. Combine the two and you have a camera that can shoot at very long shutter speeds without notable vibration. If Hasselblad or Phase One took this idea and ran with it, you have what could be one hell of a camera.
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Α mirrorless MF camera with "traditional" approach similar to Sony's α7 series of cameras but of MF size, would require a completely new series of lenses and would luck the traditional modularity that is bond with MF (having interchangeable finders, backs, screens etc...) In a sense, an MFDB is a mirrorless camera but with no shutter or lens... It would certainly make much sense for users of tech cameras since it would provide them with shutter and (if a Hasselblad) possibly with intergrated multishot ability, but on the other hand, it would not offer more than a FF mirrorless (if it wouldn't have multishot function) but some temporary IQ advantage that would diminish with time as FF mirrorless would improve with time... Additionally, the image circle would be larger and thus in cases where extreme moves are required, the FF mirrorless would be preferable...
Never the less, the additional sales it would add to a maker, should cut off from the rest of the products the same maker does, and thus it could probably be a project of high risk, especially if the cost of development of such a system (with possibly 6-7 lenses to start with) is encountered. OTOH, if one of the traditional MF makers would pioneer the MF mirrorlens market and given that he would do so with a Sony sensor that is "open" to all makers, one would expect that much cheaper alternatives would appear from mass market camera makers, (much as it happened with the P645 system) but with no disadvantage that P645 exhibits with respect to Hassy or P1 as the mirrorless design doesn't leave much room for body innovation... Therefore, survival would be seriously threatened... With the above in mind, I don't expect an MF mirrorless from other than mass market makers... If I was to bet on a maker to pioneer an MF mirrorles project, my (guess) bet would go with Fuji...
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I would think that there's a decent chance that you could attach an evf to the newer H4/H5 series bodies. You'd just have to lock the mirror up and use the electrical contacts to transfer the image from the sensor to the evf... A future EV90x maybe? Not sure if those connections could handle it, but it would be nice if it did!