Luminous Landscape Forum
The Art of Photography => The Coffee Corner => Topic started by: dreed on January 05, 2016, 09:03:22 am
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The website dedicated to find areas where the sunset will be good got me to thinking: sunset photography is already kitsch to a certain extent and now this website is saying "go here for beautiful sunsets."
Judging by the interest from other readers here, it would seem that there is indeed genuine interest in predicting beautiful sunsets which makes me wonder if the pursuit of those therefore turns sunset photography into something very kitsch and that if that's generalized then if it isn't kitsch then it isn't interesting.
Well maybe I've run away a bit there but the point here is that by focusing on the beauty of the sunset rather than the composition or subjects, pursuit of kitsch is at hand.
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This is the Luminous Landscape, where the name of the game is to produce kitsch ;)
While that statement is obviously hyperbole, what is true is that most traditional landscape being shot today runs up against the same problem. It's typically extremely pretty, and it's typically fairly light on "meaning", whatever that is. So, inevitably, it's going to be seen as kitsch by at least some viewers.
For my money, the way you avoid kitsch is to have a point of view, an opinion, an idea. What is it about this sunset, in this place?
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It's typically extremely pretty, and it's typically fairly light on "meaning", whatever that is.
I like that. I wonder if that's where street photography takes over?
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No I don't want to photography just sunsets and sunrise. I think this really took off after we all saw photographs from Galen Rowell who portrayed the Range of Light as almost a fantasy. Never the less, good sunset shots have some thought to composition. Usually the light is taken care of. In the mountains it is hard not to shoot a sunset, but I must say that I love overcast days where I can wander and photograph wish a huge softbox overhead.
My sunset is number 2
My Sunset (http://www.yosemitecollection.com/Bishop_Marcus/)
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The website dedicated to find areas where the sunset will be good got me to thinking: sunset photography is already kitsch to a certain extent and now this website is saying "go here for beautiful sunsets."
One person's kitsch is another person's income. Fact is that it's almost impossible to do landscape photography that isn't kitsch or schlock or calendar fodder. A few - very few - photographers have the vision and skill to transcend this. I wish I were one of them.
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Like most things, it depends on what the definition of Kitsch Photography is.
And, the subject line seems to indicate that kitsch photography is something that should be avoided.... why?
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Most of us who take photographs "seriously" are, when you clear away the clutter, mostly just ringing the changes on a pretty small set of tropes we've been exposed to a lot.
The major tradition in landscape art is "the sublime" which is a completely legitimate opinion, idea, of the landscape. Landscapes very often evoke the "I am in the presence of God's Handiwork" sort of sensation. This in turn has produced a handful of tropes (see: Ruskin, Turner, Robinson, Adams, Rowell, etc. The line is pretty straight for the last 200 years). So there's a strong tendency to simply rework those tropes over and over. This makes tons of guys super happy, so, terrific!
The results tend to be weak repetitions of the single idea: "the sublime". The repetition is weak because the artist is working the tropes, not the ideas.
Again, so what? It makes lots of guys super happy, it even sells some art. That's all to the good.
But it *does* tend toward kitsch. The sublime is beautiful, it's pretty. Because it's reworked tropes, the idea of the sublime is only weakly present.
Do you want to shoot a sunset that's not kitsch? Start with an idea. It's not sublime at all. It's a terrifying supernova. It's the 3rd and last sun to set on Barsoom. It's the last sunset on the last day on earth. It's sunset in a dinosaur infested hellscape from which no mammal escapes alive.
Or whatever. Just step away from the sublime in your head, then start thinking about how to shoot that instead of the same reworked "sublime" thing.
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... It's the last sunset on the last day on earth. It's sunset in a dinosaur infested hellscape from which no mammal escapes alive...
I'd love to see that. On black velvet, please.
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I guess it all depends on why you shoot. I imagine some will think the majority of my photos are kitsch. Maybe they are, but I'm a visual person who likes to look at pretty scenes. By pretty scenes I mean spectacular natural beauty presented in the best conditions with the best technique possible. I want to show others what I see and why that scene is beautiful or important to me. I'd like to help someone who just sees some mountains actually see more about them than just big hunks of rock and dirt. I want to convince people who may not come and appreciate them in person that they are valuable as wild undeveloped places and not just potential sources of energy, raw materials, or a playground for the wealthy. I want people to realize there is value in dark skies and skylines unaltered by humans.
These images could end up in brochures, web sites, calendars, postcards, and maybe on some walls too. If I avoided that I'm not sure who my clients would be or who would want to see my work. I've dabbled in subjects that are a bit more edgy but the gallery that shows my work wasn't interested. It's just not what the market here wants, and honestly I'd rather look at pretty pictures myself too. Maybe I'm just shallow. :)
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I'd love to see that. On black velvet, please.
Let us be honest with ourselves. Who among us does NOT want to see it on black velvet?
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Like most things, it depends on what the definition of Kitsch Photography is.
Another way we can look down on them --
"kitsch: showy art or cheap, decorative objects that are attractive to people who are thought to lack any appreciation of style or beauty (http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/kitsch)"
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Another way we can look down on them --
"kitsch: showy art or cheap, decorative objects that are attractive to people who are thought to lack any appreciation of style or beauty (http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/kitsch)"
So my niche is your kitsch? ;D
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If what's considered a kitsch sunset is a golden amber/red ball close to a flat horizon with some sparse clouds in the sky dispersing and diffusing yellow light then there's not much anyone can do to make that look original.
However, if someone looks for weather patterns like cold fronts that form oddly shaped clouds against haze-less backdrop of color back lit by and slightly covering a golden ball of intense light, then there is potential for creating something in post the likes of which have not been seen by man especially shooting Raw. You have a color palette to work with that would make a designer drool over.
A sunset offers up a huge palette of full spectrum color the naked eye does not see upon tripping the shutter. If all any photographer wishes to do is accurate portrayals of sunsets then most likely they're going to get uninspiring, kitsch results. You can only do so much with composition.
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If what's considered a kitsch sunset is a golden amber/red ball close to a flat horizon with some sparse clouds in the sky dispersing and diffusing yellow light then there's not much anyone can do to make that look original.
However, if someone looks for weather patterns like cold fronts that form oddly shaped clouds against haze-less backdrop of color back lit by and slightly covering a golden ball of intense light, then there is potential for creating something in post the likes of which have not been seen by man especially shooting Raw. You have a color palette to work with that would make a designer drool over.
A sunset offers up a huge palette of full spectrum color the naked eye does not see upon tripping the shutter. If all any photographer wishes to do is accurate portrayals of sunsets then most likely they're going to get uninspiring, kitsch results. You can only do so much with composition.
That makes sense.
What I think we are after when shooting sunrise/sunsets is something that is different, unusual, rarely seen. So, as you said, "a golden amber/red ball close to a flat horizon" is hardly unusual or rare. But a combination of something else with a sunrise/sunset might be. If it is a building, it presents it in a rarely seen light, if for no other reason than that most people are still in bed (for sunrise at least). For instance, this State Capitol in Santa Fe:
(http://www.slobodanblagojevic.com/img/s6/v134/p1798082380-4.jpg) (http://www.slobodanblagojevic.com/p681798102/e6b2c8f4c)
Which looked rather different just a few minutes earlier:
(http://www.slobodanblagojevic.com/img/s2/v53/p1669701064-4.jpg) (http://www.slobodanblagojevic.com/p681798102/e63859dc8)
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So my niche is your kitsch?
What a big niche you have!
"kitsch: … mass-produced, 'throw away' paraphernalia of industrial consumer culture." page 551 The Bulfinch Guide to Art History (https://books.google.com/books?id=AXhyQgAACAAJ)
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… something that is different, unusual, rarely seen.
Something that may lead to the appreciation of kitsch "as an ironic, aesthetic stance opposing the accepted notions of 'good taste'."
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..."kitsch: … mass-produced...
That's why I limit my editions ;)
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So does Peter Lik.
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IMO about the worst thing you can do when taking photos, unless you're a pro working to someone else's brief, is concern yourself with how a particular photo will be perceived or categorized while you're in the midst of doing your thing. Just do it. Shoot all the presumed clichés. Edit later. Maybe some of those "clichés" will turn out to have something else going on.
I like sunset (and sunrise) photos and could care less whether or not some folks view them as kitsch. But when photographing them I do tend to get bored with repetition. As of late I've been mostly leaving the sun itself out of such pics.
-Dave-
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Tim,
You can only do so much with composition.
How much is only so much?
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IMO about the worst thing you can do when taking photos, unless you're a pro working to someone else's brief, is concern yourself with how a particular photo will be perceived or categorized while you're in the midst of doing your thing. Just do it. Shoot all the presumed clichés. Edit later. Maybe some of those "clichés" will turn out to have something else going on.
I like sunset (and sunrise) photos and could care less whether or not some folks view them as kitsch. But when photographing them I do tend to get bored with repetition. As of late I've been mostly leaving the sun itself out of such pics.
-Dave-
Amen!
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I don't worry about making copies or cliches any more, because I almost never press the button without a clear idea of what I'm trying to do. I fear failing to accomplish my goal, with tragically good justification.
If my goal is any good, then hitting it takes care of any cliche/copying issues.
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Tim,
How much is only so much?
I framed that comment on composition within the relationship of limited amounts of elements that form negative and positive shapes within a frame that can register as a sunset. Like others have demonstrated there doesn't even have to be a bright round amber ball showing. But we also don't show flat, featureless gray frames and call that a foggy sunset though there are photographers and conceptual art painters that have pulled that off, some becoming famous for it.
There are other visual communication tools to consider to make something ordinary quite extraordinary that isn't even seen while tripping the shutter.
Another aspect is just sheer luck and being at the right place at the right time during magnificent looking weather patterns that usually occur just before a cold front. That awareness both in front of the camera and in post can only be realized by shooting quite a few sunsets in the Raw format during certain times of the year and bringing out glorious color combinations that weren't seen.
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Maybe the simplest advice is to do what you like, rather than what you think others will like.
It might not be good advice, mind :-)
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Maybe the simplest advice is to do what you like, rather than what you think others will like.
It might not be good advice, mind :-)
Shoot to please yourself and if someone else likes what you do then that is a bonus. Personally speaking I like sunsets and sunrises and they are all different especially if you have good foreground interest.
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As someone who shoots a lot at godlen/bue hours of the day, I like to take some photos of the astro body that provides such light, which is the sun. I don't care about what others think about the quality of such shots.
There is a live recording where Neil Young does an encore saying "here is some more trash for you" (Year of the Horse?). I will borrow from him and say "here is some more kitsch for you..."
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Does this sort of thing count as kitsch? I didn't think so, but what do I know?
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Let us be honest with ourselves. Who among us does NOT want to see it on black velvet?
I thought that black velvet was reserved for Elvis.
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I thought that black velvet was reserved for Elvis.
Don't forget La Senora de Guadalupe!
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/70/cf/ae/70cfaeb4eb15b7588866f379bfb8e38a.jpg)
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Does this sort of thing count as kitsch?
Depends what we mean by kitsch.
Maybe we don't mean kitsch at all, we just mean cliché ;-)
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Ah, well cliché is something else entirely. I suppose that after a certain number of photographs have been taken, styles & formats repeat (inevitably), and soon evertything becomes a bit of a cliché.
Thing is, I don't know much about clichés, but I know what I like, and I don't give a rat's arse whether somone considers my stuff clichéd or not. And I suppose there's enough people of similar mind to make saying that a bit of a cliché too.
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… styles & formats repeat …
I recall reading about a photographer, on their first day at National Geographic, being told by a photo editor - I don't care if your photo is a cliché, as-long-as it's the best I've ever seen.
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I can't resist a good sunset, even if the topic is kitch-y. It is a bit like a glamour portrait: you know it is a person on his or her best and probably in day-to-day life they look less stunning.
For me, as long as it shows what that place can be in natural light - I am in.
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If a photographer lives in one place and doesn't travel to exotic locations around the world there is more likely the chance all their sunsets are going to look pretty much the same if they don't go looking for sunsets that are different. OTOH there are photographers who have the luxury of traveling the world and shooting a series of sunsets in different locations and for some reason they manage to make them all look identical with same color schemes and compositions. Whose fault is that? The viewer for noticing this?
Kitschy is the definition of someone who communicates to the viewer they don't have a distinguishing eye. It doesn't matter if all their sunsets look the same as long as they look dazzling and technically perfect (commercial looking), but the viewer will pick up on this and not even spend 2 seconds looking at it before they move on to the next trillion or so sunsets they have at their disposal online.
Come on people, it's not rocket science. You either see something unique in what you're shooting or you don't. You can't fool the viewer.
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If a photographer lives in one place and doesn't travel to exotic locations around the world there is more likely the chance all their sunsets are going to look pretty much the same if they don't go looking for sunsets that are different. OTOH there are photographers who have the luxury of traveling the world and shooting a series of sunsets in different locations and for some reason they manage to make them all look identical with same color schemes and compositions. Whose fault is that? The viewer for noticing this?
Kitschy is the definition of someone who communicates to the viewer they don't have a distinguishing eye. It doesn't matter if all their sunsets look the same as long as they look dazzling and technically perfect (commercial looking), but the viewer will pick up on this and not even spend 2 seconds looking at it before they move on to the next trillion or so sunsets they have at their disposal online.
Come on people, it's not rocket science. You either see something unique in what you're shooting or you don't. You can't fool the viewer.
How does one know it is unique if they haven't seen all of the others?
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Ah, well cliché is something else entirely.
I wonder what the difference is and what the relationship is between Kitch and Cliche?
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Kitsch implies a lack of meaning and a certain prettiness.
Cliches may it may not have had meaning before they became cliches, but by the present any meaning has been wrung out. Cliches are often, but not always, pretty.
So cliche is, often, a way to produce kitsch.
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Kitsch implies a lack of meaning and a certain prettiness.
Cliches may it may not have had meaning before they became cliches, but by the present any meaning has been wrung out. Cliches are often, but not always, pretty.
So cliche is, often, a way to produce kitsch.
There are a lot of non-pretty cliches too. Like ruin porn (think Detroit) or photos of the homeless just being homeless. It's hard to find subjects and perspectives that aren't cliche which I guess is what separates the really creative people from everyone else. But not being cliche also isn't necessarily good to my eyes either. There's a reason cliches become cliches; those subjects and techniques are popular.
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How does one know it is unique if they haven't seen all of the others?
Exactly. For instance, I will probably never visit Utah, or Yosemite, so I hardly get tired of the photo-cliché-kitsch from those areas. If it has good quality, of course:)
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Cliches may it may not have had meaning before they became cliches, but by the present any meaning has been wrung out.
Meaning? To whom? In what context?
"cliché: an idea or expression that has been used too often (http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/cliche) and is often considered a sign of bad writing or old-fashioned thinking"
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How does one know it is unique if they haven't seen all of the others?
I take it you didn't catch the point about people looking at all the trillion other sunsets online. A lot of photographers from what I've seen take sunsets because their sunsets and it really shows TO ME. It's clear they just pointed and took the shot. No thought put into it.
I don't know what others see but it doesn't take a huge amount of investigative deduction from what's available online now to be confident that others who don't have a trained eye or aren't some simpleton just coming out of their cave that art appreciation is getting a tin eye due to information overload having to view a lot of crap and copies of crap.
It's really not hard to see whether a photographer or any creative person in communication arts has a discerning eye. I saw this in spades recently from an antique collector and interior designer who started a little shop around the corner in my small town. She and her husband travel around Europe making very good choices (like photographers should) buying furniture and collectibles artfully arranged in interesting compositions for patrons to browse throughout the shop.
It was a journey of discovery for me because I've never seen a lot of these items, especially the clever arrangements. I could see the talent and intelligence in this woman's decision making while most patrons just glanced around and left without a word with some complaining about the prices of each item and others taking random shots with their cell phone without any thought behind noticing these beautifully arranged compositions. I took 5 hours shooting this shop and I still wasn't done capturing all the interesting compositions.
Can a photographer show that they can make the same intelligent choices and convey that in their images similar to what this woman has done with collectibles? Where is the talent? Where is the source of the originality? The photographer taking the picture or the woman who created the compositions for the photographer to take notice while others didn't?
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… may lead to the appreciation of kitsch "as an ironic, aesthetic stance opposing the accepted notions of 'good taste'."
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I think the short answer to the question posed in the subject line is no. :)
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can we avoid kitsch discussions? ;)
I think the short answer to the question posed in the subject line is no. :)
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I think that before a conclusion of the debate on kitsch has run it's course then deciding what subjectivism is has to be debated because kitsch and subjectivism are definitely intertwined?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subjectivism
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Quote Tim Reply#42.
I take it you didn't catch the point about people looking at all the trillion other sunsets online.
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I don't think anyone has the time - certainly not me - to look at that many sunsets? :(
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She and her husband travel around Europe making very good choices (like photographers should) buying furniture and collectibles artfully arranged in interesting compositions for patrons to browse throughout the shop.
It was a journey of discovery for me because I've never seen a lot of these items, especially the clever arrangements. I could see the talent and intelligence in this woman's decision making while most patrons just glanced around and left without a word with some complaining about the prices of each item and others taking random shots with their cell phone without any thought behind noticing these beautifully arranged compositions. I took 5 hours shooting this shop and I still wasn't done capturing all the interesting compositions.
Can a photographer show that they can make the same intelligent choices and convey that in their images similar to what this woman has done with collectibles? Where is the talent? Where is the source of the originality? The photographer taking the picture or the woman who created the compositions for the photographer to take notice while others didn't?
It is novelty for you. Here in Lisbon, Portugal, there are dozens of antique/antiquarian shops that sell this kind of stuff. So it is not novelty for me. As a parallel, I could go to an art gallery selling photos of Yosemite, or other USA natural parks (places I will never be able to go, probably), and select a few to buy. Or some books with photos from those places, even some kitschy photos of sunsets:)
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It is novelty for you. Here in Lisbon, Portugal, there are dozens of antique/antiquarian shops that sell this kind of stuff. So it is not novelty for me. As a parallel, I could go to an art gallery selling photos of Yosemite, or other USA natural parks (places I will never be able to go, probably), and select a few to buy. Or some books with photos from those places, even some kitschy photos of sunsets:)
So you zero'ed in on my point about antique collecting/interior design that I meant as an analogy on discerning originality through examination of intelligent choices made behind the camera seen in the images as just mere novelty? Clearly something got lost in translation in your interpretation of what I wrote. I'm in the US. Or you're just being dismissive and splitting hairs as the only meaningful way to move this discussion forward. I can't tell which from your response.
So to cut to the chase show me a photograph either yours or someone else's that you think exhibits intelligent choices were made behind the camera and clearly point out those choices that support your POV.
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Quote Tim Reply#42.
I take it you didn't catch the point about people looking at all the trillion other sunsets online.
unquote
I don't think anyone has the time - certainly not me - to look at that many sunsets? :(
There's over 7 billion people on this planet spread across the entire globe. That makes a lot of sunsets they've seen and the potential for an enormous amount to be quite unique. Just because someone doesn't see it online doesn't mean it doesn't exist. There's too many that look the same online that gives a false impression that that's all there is.
How do you make a sunset look original since most of them look pretty much all alike. A lot of that is luck but a viewer looking at the result isn't going to know that or read some kind of intelligence or meaningfulness behind it.
The only thing left that a photographer can do is show some level of discernment in the way they shoot that scene that just doesn't show they relied only on luck. Not sure if that can be communicated clearly in one photograph though.
My "Not So Kitschy" sunset I posted previously was all luck and judicious post processing because I shot the series in jpeg (DOH!) and that's because I just got my DSLR and didn't have software at the time, nor the post processing experience to shoot Raw.
But I'm glad I was there early in the morning outside my apartment to get those shots. I know what I have no one's seen before because I checked it online from a weather centrist site that collects images of sunsets and cloud formations from around the world. They have a scientific name for the cloud formation I captured.
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My "kitsch" photograph. 8)
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It's almost impossible to create a really new image, especially in landscape. There's just so many photographs already made. However what you can make new and unique is a "project"/"work", that is a set of images which has some sort of context. Each image by itself may not be that "new", but the work as a whole can be new and fresh.
But in any case in order to make good quality work I think we need to shot what we like. If you happen to like sunsets, shoot sunsets and do it as well as you can.
Attached a kitsch image of mine.
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It's almost impossible to create a really new image, especially in landscape.
And still: every ten years or so, there is a new artist who comes out with a new idea. Even in landscape.
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And still: every ten years or so, there is a new artist who comes out with a new idea. Even in landscape.
Yes. I envy Edward Burtynsky: http://www.edwardburtynsky.com/ which has pulled off the incredible to make important art out of landscape photography. But well, that environmental idea is taken now :-)
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And still: every ten years or so, there is a new artist who comes out with a new idea.
Speaking of new ideas... What do you think of this one (yes, a mess, look carefully):
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/4T6TyeHU1hgEk2PAnze6oPBlAOWZ0HsV2k_xFXcYQXvl6zG-T5LiY9qr8DlvmfYC1UsSqn_nu2jeNHAF=s1000)
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...look carefully...
I did... found vodka in no time ;)
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Wasn't Andy Warhol doing something similar a hundred years ago? (With bourbon rather than vodka.)
Actually, my principal criterion for an interesting photo is that I need to look at it for more than 60 seconds. This one qualifies.
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IMO about the worst thing you can do when taking photos, unless you're a pro working to someone else's brief, is concern yourself with how a particular photo will be perceived or categorized while you're in the midst of doing your thing. Just do it. Shoot all the presumed clichés. Edit later. Maybe some of those "clichés" will turn out to have something else going on.
I like sunset (and sunrise) photos and could care less whether or not some folks view them as kitsch. But when photographing them I do tend to get bored with repetition. As of late I've been mostly leaving the sun itself out of such pics.
-Dave-
As Slobodan said, "Amen." And as we used to say in the Air Force: "Shoot 'em down and sort 'em out on the ground."
To put it in a more serious way: Don't worry about details when you're shooting, but when it comes time to cull, get serious and be critical. It helps a lot if you let a noticeable period of time pass between shooting and culling.
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Wasn't Andy Warhol doing something similar a hundred years ago? (With bourbon rather than vodka.)
Can you please point me to it? I'm not aware of anything similar by Warhol... or anyone else, for that matter (not saying it doesn't exist; only that I haven't see it).
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...look carefully...
What fun! Nicely done.
How long did it take to set this up and what did you do to get the sharp edge on the stack of fig newton thingies?
Also, this is just begging to be one of a series. Do you have more?
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How long did it take to set this up and what did you do to get the sharp edge on the stack of fig newton thingies?
It's a biscuit tin...
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It's a biscuit tin...
Ahh yes!
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How long did it take to set this up and what did you do to get the sharp edge on the stack of fig newton thingies?
Also, this is just begging to be one of a series. Do you have more?
This image is so good that I thought it was obvious it wasn't by me :)
It's by Bela Borsodi: http://www.belaborsodi.com/advertising/vlp#0
He has lots and lots of good stuff, you may want to check his site...
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This image is so good that I thought it was obvious it wasn't by me :)
It's by Bela Borsodi: http://www.belaborsodi.com/advertising/vlp#0
He has lots and lots of good stuff, you may want to check his site...
Lots of fun images! Here's another with similar humor: http://lernertandsander.com/
It's not so much landscape though ;)