Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: elliot_n on October 09, 2015, 09:07:12 am
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Hi, I normally use two papers with my Epson 3880: Epson Premium Semi Gloss, and Harman by Hahnemuhle Gloss Baryta.
For an upcoming exhibition I'm interested in using a matte paper for the first time.
These are the qualities I’m looking for:
Surface - As smooth as possible, no texture.
Sharpness - I’m spoiled with the Harman paper. As sharp as possible.
Whiteness - I’d like the paper white to be a close match to the standard matte white emulsion that is used to paint the gallery walls.
Blacks - As black as possible.
Durability - I’m planning on mounting this paper to MDF (full bleed, white painted edges to the MDF), so it needs to survive the mounting process.
Any ideas? Warnings?
(If there’s an Epson paper that fits the bill, I’d happily use that.)
Thanks
Elliot
(Edited title to add the word 'smooth')
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I'd start w/ Epson Hot Press Bright, Canson Rag Photographique 310, Innova IFA39 or BreathingColor Pura Smooth
Coming from your current papers, make sure your 'expectation' regarding max black are founded in reality.
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Thanks for the tips.
I headed off to the Epson site to order some Hot Press Bright. Surprised at the cost!
£141 for the Epson Hot Press Bright (25 x A2) - compared to £104 for the Harman Baryta (30 x A2), and £35 for the Epson Semi Gloss (25 x A2).
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I dont think the Epson website is going to be a financial win on any level. It's always super-expensive list price.
Even though this place is in the US, I'd think you could find something close in the UK
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?N=10645672&InitialSearch=yes&sts=pi
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(Wow - big difference in price - Epson vs B&H)
I normally buy my Epson supplies (3880 ink and Semi Gloss paper) from Epson Europe, because on those items they are reasonably priced, and they always arrive with sturdy packaging. I've had bad experiences with papers arriving with dings from other dealers.
But I'll look further afield. I've already found the Innova and Canson you recommended for considerably less (£82 and £113 respectively).
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The package that Epson developed for this series (Signature Worthy) is just terrific. A sort of built-in double layer w/ something like 5cm protecting each edge.
If I had to guess, I'd say that Epson is simply pricing it to the market. It's a high-end paper so you get a high-end price. Also, cotton based papers are significantly more $$ than alpha-cellulose.
Do you guys employ gorillas at the Post Office ;)
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Good to know it's well packaged. I can find it a bit cheaper on other UK sites, but not nearly as cheap as B&H.
I might try all the papers you've recommended in A4, before committing to expensive boxes of A2.
Once I've found a paper that fits the project, cost will not be an issue.
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as we always say, get a sample pack from the manufacturers and start printing and see what you like
or 'works best' in the current situation. We can recommend papers till the sun goes dim but ultimately
you have to road test it and be happy.
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I've done a lot of printing on Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Ultra Smooth with the 3880 (both color and B/W) and not been disappointed. I don't know how the price relates to the other papers that you have listed.
Alan
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Thanks. Another one to check out. Last time I dabbled with matte papers (about 10 years ago) Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Ultra Smooth didn't exist. Their regular Photo Rag is definitely too textured for my purposes.
I'll pop down to Silverprint on Monday morning - they have lots of swatches / test-prints to look at.
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Hot Press White contains OBAs (to achieve the cooler color). I believe the Canson, which I use instead, has no OBAs and it is only slightly warmer than the HPW. Similar surfaces.
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Thanks. Another one to check out. Last time I dabbled with matte papers (about 10 years ago) Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Ultra Smooth didn't exist. Their regular Photo Rag is definitely too textured for my purposes.
The Hahnemühle Ultra Smooth isn't much smoother (if at all) than Canson Rag Photographique. You will not find a cotton based paper that comes close to the smoothness of a wood pulp based paper.
Brian A
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You will not find a cotton based paper that comes close to the smoothness of a wood pulp based paper.
Confused. All the papers suggested so far seem to be cotton-based. What wood-pulp-based papers should I be looking at?
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There aren't that many but the IFA39 is.........
http://innova.shoppix.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Innova-FibaPrint_Data-Sheet_IFA39.pdf
Since you're in the UK, Permajet Delta Matte 285 might be interesting too.
In all honesty, you really want to get some hands on w/ the papers to determine how smooth is 'smooth enough'.
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Thanks. I'll add the Permajet paper to my list.
I hate paper texture. I recently tried the Canson Baryta Photographique that everyone raves about, but I can't live with the texture. I much prefer the smooth surface of Harman by Hahnemuhle Gloss Baryta (though I wish the paper wouldn't curl).
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There aren't that many but the IFA39 is.........
Well there are quite a few if you go down to 230 gsm or lower. You lose some opacity at those weights, and they are all chock full of OBAs.
In all honesty, you really want to get some hands on w/ the papers to determine how smooth is 'smooth enough'.
.. and with ink on them. Even the heaviest textured paper lose some texture when the ink goes down.
Brian A
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I love Moab Somerset Museum Rag. Brilliant color for a matte paper. Worth a try IMO
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For color, I like either Epson Hot Press Natural or Hot Press Bright. HPB does contain OBAs, but it performs well in color permanence testing. For B&W, I prefer Museo Portfolio Rag. All three papers have a fine, smooth surface that virtually disappears.
Rob
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I love Moab Somerset Museum Rag. Brilliant color for a matte paper. Worth a try IMO
+1 I was surprised by how much I liked this paper. Like a better, heavier VFA paper.
But probably not applicable to this OP since he hates texture so much although this is a great texture.
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I also use Harman Hahnemuhle for most of my work on my 3880, but almost always the 17 X 25 cut sheets because I find the rolls to be a royal pain. For matte, I use Hahnemuhle Ultra Smooth; smooth enough for me and very crisp rendering for a matte, but it does have a slightly warmish tone, so I have a feeling it wouldn't suit your needs.
Merrill
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I am using Canson BFK Rives and it is very good. I also have Hahnemuehle Photo Rag. The only issue with that is a small gamut.
I recently attended a workshop with one of the top professional portrait and wedding photographers and was surprised to see them using Epson Hot Press Natural. I will certainly be giving it a go as it's half the price.
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What matt papers have equal or similar DMAX as Epson VFA?
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VFA *is* a matte paper. In larger sizes, it's moderately lightweight of 260 works against it but as I said, I was really liking the Moab Somerset Museum Rag paper. Do *not* confuse it w/ Moab's Velvet which isn't anywhere near as good a gamut or Dmax.
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Another vote for Epson Hot Press (I prefer the Bright White) for deep blacks, color and smooth texture. That said, I'll give the Moab Somerset Rag a try. Liked VFA, just wished a bit thicker. That and I'm sick & tired of having to buy Epson paper from CDN retailers vs. my fave supplier, B&H due to Epson-imposed import restrictions.
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Confused. All the papers suggested so far seem to be cotton-based. What wood-pulp-based papers should I be looking at?
The smoothest I know is the HP Matte Litho-Realistic 270 gsm. Alpha Cellulose and no OBA content, so warm white. I still have an old production roll, no experience with the new production version that BMG distributes now. Only available in rolls from 24" wide and up so it has to be cut.
There is the Innova IFA25 and IFA25 with similar properties, that is also available with other brand name disguises, but it has more texture than Photorag.
Otherwise I do not know papers that qualify to your criteria; matte, supersmooth, gallery wall white. The last I interpret as without OBA content. Innova has matte Fiber qualities but they contain OBAs, a lot of other mainstream inkjet papers fall in a similar category. Longevity is probably not asked as it will be mounted on MDF.
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
December 2014 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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I wondered when I asked for 'gallery wall white' whether white matte emulsion paint contains OBAs?
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I wondered when I asked for 'gallery wall white' whether white matte emulsion paint contains OBAs?
I did not think it was a precise description of a white :-)
When there is OBA content in it, the next question is whether that wall paint optical brightener is still effective.
A wise gallery owner would avoid a paint like that I think.
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
December 2014 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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Galleries with white walls tend to have them repainted quite frequently, so if there are OBAs in white paint, they are likely to be active. But I think there probably aren't.
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I hate paper texture. I recently tried the Canson Baryta Photographique that everyone raves about, but I can't live with the texture. I much prefer the smooth surface of Harman by Hahnemuhle Gloss Baryta (though I wish the paper wouldn't curl).
When I selected my "standard" matte paper, I was also looking for something that had minimal texture. Like several others in this thread, I now use mostly Epson Hot Press Natural, and I like it a lot. I think it has about as smooth a surface as you'll find in a matte paper, as well as having among the best in Dmax and color gamut. But if the amount of texture in Canson Baryta Photographique (a glossy paper) is too much for you, I think you are going to have a hard time finding a matte paper that is as smooth as you want. Of course I haven't tried every matte paper, so I could be wrong; maybe someone else will speak up if they know of a matte paper with a smoother surface than CBP.
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When I selected my "standard" matte paper, I was also looking for something that had minimal texture. Like several others in this thread, I now use mostly Epson Hot Press Natural, and I like it a lot. I think it has about as smooth a surface as you'll find in a matte paper, as well as having among the best in Dmax and color gamut. But if the amount of texture in Canson Baryta Photographique (a glossy paper) is too much for you, I think you are going to have a hard time finding a matte paper that is as smooth as you want. Of course I haven't tried every matte paper, so I could be wrong; maybe someone else will speak up if they know of a matte paper with a smoother surface than CBP.
Epson Ultra Premium Presentation Paper Matte, Epson Archival Matte, Canon Coated Matte 170, etc. There are loads of wood pulp based papers with much smoother surfaces than any of the cotton based papers/ I have yet to find one without a boat load of OBA content, but they are all much smoother.
And some of the proofing papers are much smoother too, and often with possible minimal OBA content, but they tend to be expensive.
Brian A
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Thanks, Brian. After I posted, and was away from the computer, I realized that Epson Archival/Enhanced/Ultra Premium Presentation Matte is certainly an example of a smoother matte paper. It just doesn't have the other properties that I look for in a high quality paper. Useful for cheaper proofing, but not for final prints to be displayed, in my opinion.
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When I selected my "standard" matte paper, I was also looking for something that had minimal texture. Like several others in this thread, I now use mostly Epson Hot Press Natural, and I like it a lot. I think it has about as smooth a surface as you'll find in a matte paper, as well as having among the best in Dmax and color gamut. But if the amount of texture in Canson Baryta Photographique (a glossy paper) is too much for you, I think you are going to have a hard time finding a matte paper that is as smooth as you want. Of course I haven't tried every matte paper, so I could be wrong; maybe someone else will speak up if they know of a matte paper with a smoother surface than CBP.
And another vote for hot press natural. I reviewed everything out there without OBAs and this one worked great for me.