Luminous Landscape Forum

Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Adobe Lightroom Q&A => Topic started by: nicsut on October 08, 2015, 09:36:34 am

Title: Adobe Admit New Import Dialogue in 6.2 Is Not A New Feature With Any Value
Post by: nicsut on October 08, 2015, 09:36:34 am
Because if it did have any new value (like dehaze in 6.1, and dehaze on localised adjustment tools in 6.2) it wouldn't have found its way into my perpetual lincenced copy.  Gee thanks Adobe for your broken bug fix.

Thats it for me, upgrading to "LR v7", and taking advantage of the RAW based round-tripping out to DXO Optics Pro.


P.S. WTF 7 captcha types to enter before posting  :o
Title: Re: Adobe Admit New Import Dialogue in 6.2 Is Not A New Feature With Any Value
Post by: jjj on October 08, 2015, 10:16:05 am
P.S. WTF 7 captcha types to enter before posting  :o
That sounds odd. Never seen any myself.
A single captcha makes sense for new posters in order to prevent spambot posting. Not 7 though.
Title: Re: Adobe Admit New Import Dialogue in 6.2 Is Not A New Feature With Any Value
Post by: nicsut on October 08, 2015, 10:33:11 am
That sounds odd. Never seen any myself.
A single captcha makes sense for new posters in order to prevent spambot posting. Not 7 though.

Yep 7. See screen capture.

And on the main part of my post.  Apologies, not trying to troll, just really hacked off. When I decided to upgrade to v6 perpetual I fully accepted the fact that I would not get access to new functionality, just bug fixes, new cameras/lens profiles.  And then this comes along - so I end up paying to get less functionality - just great :-(

So indeed (for now - I'll consider coming back in the future if there are signs that the photographer hard core of the LR dev team have wrestled back control of the product direction from the marketeers, becasue it sure seems to me that the marketeers are on top at the moment - where the historical LR dev team even involved in this import dog dinner?) I will now preserve my investment to date in catalogying end edits, but use the DXO features roudtripped into LR, specifically I am interested in:
- Denoise
- Lens sharpness and other deformations
- clearview

And will keep the cataloguing, keywording, develop options (ex dehaze) and printing simplicity (Adobe dont dare try and simplify that in a future release!!) that I still value.
Title: Re: Adobe Admit New Import Dialogue in 6.2 Is Not A New Feature With Any Value
Post by: jjj on October 08, 2015, 11:01:06 am
And on the main part of my post.  Apologies, not trying to troll, just really hacked off.
You are not alone. This  thread about the new import (http://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family/topics/new-update-6-2?page=5) is already the second most unresolved topic on the Adobe forums after only two days. Thens there's this one here on LuLa. (http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=104394.0)
Title: Re: Adobe Admit New Import Dialogue in 6.2 Is Not A New Feature With Any Value
Post by: Kevin Raber on October 08, 2015, 04:42:19 pm
As far as asking all those questions in the beginning when you open an account is to make sure you are not a robot or spammer.  You would not believe how often these nasty robots try to get in.  Answer the questions and we know you have been to the site.  Once you do it you are done.  It is one of the reasons we have a clean site without a lot of trolls and such.  You can post without any hassle after that.
Title: Re: Adobe Admit New Import Dialogue in 6.2 Is Not A New Feature With Any Value
Post by: adias on October 08, 2015, 05:25:53 pm
Because if it did have any new value (like dehaze in 6.1, and dehaze on localised adjustment tools in 6.2) it wouldn't have found its way into my perpetual lincenced copy.  Gee thanks Adobe for your broken bug fix.

Interesting observation. The standalone V.6.2 should not have the new Import code. This points to a broken update policy.
Title: Re: Adobe Admit New Import Dialogue in 6.2 Is Not A New Feature With Any Value
Post by: Jeff Griffin on October 09, 2015, 02:09:56 am
" The standalone V.6.2 should not have the new Import code. "

I asked this question on another topic and the explanation was that the new import experience was a change to an existing feature NOT a NEW one and therefore perfectly OK for Adobe to change it !
Title: Re: Adobe Admit New Import Dialogue in 6.2 Is Not A New Feature With Any Value
Post by: john beardsworth on October 09, 2015, 02:24:34 am
" The standalone V.6.2 should not have the new Import code. "

I asked this question on another topic and the explanation was that the new import experience was a change to an existing feature NOT a NEW one and therefore perfectly OK for Adobe to change it !

Just remove that exclamation mark, Jeff. That is why it's in the standalone version - it is indeed because it's only a change to an existing feature and not new functionality.
Title: Re: Adobe Admit New Import Dialogue in 6.2 Is Not A New Feature With Any Value
Post by: Damon Lynch on October 09, 2015, 03:46:08 am
As far as asking all those questions in the beginning when you open an account is to make sure you are not a robot or spammer.  You would not believe how often these nasty robots try to get in.

Hi Kevin,

I feel your pain. Thanks for your continual efforts to keep the forums clear of that rubbish. On another website I use, well over 100,000 spam accounts were added in one and half months! - http://blog.openhub.net/2015/09/why-do-we-ask-for-your-phone-number/

Damon
Title: Re: Adobe Admit New Import Dialogue in 6.2 Is Not A New Feature With Any Value
Post by: nicsut on October 09, 2015, 05:07:05 am
Just remove that exclamation mark, Jeff. That is why it's in the standalone version - it is indeed because it's only a change to an existing feature and not new functionality.

But the "deal" with Adobe was bug fixes and camara/lens profiles.  Not feature changes.  They have broken the deal, easier import is equivalent to easier developing aka dehaze.

Title: Re: Adobe Admit New Import Dialogue in 6.2 Is Not A New Feature With Any Value
Post by: john beardsworth on October 09, 2015, 06:24:34 am
But the "deal" with Adobe was bug fixes and camara/lens profiles.  Not feature changes.  They have broken the deal, easier import is equivalent to easier developing aka dehaze.

Sure, I explained the legal reason why they can change an existing feature, but you're really arguing over the meaning of the words "feature updates" as used here for example (http://www.adobe.com/uk/products/photoshop-lightroom/features.html): "Web capabilities, mobile capabilities related to sync and feature updates are available only when you get Lightroom as part of the Adobe Creative Cloud Photography plan." You can certainly interpret it to mean updates to existing features, but that's twisting it.
Title: Re: Adobe Admit New Import Dialogue in 6.2 Is Not A New Feature With Any Value
Post by: jjj on October 09, 2015, 06:30:24 am
I'm sure someone could argue that dehaze was a tweak to existing aspects of the develop module as much as the new import dialogue is a tweak. Which does actually have new features as now it constantly scans your computer for new shots - which apparently is a cause of computer/LR slowdowns for some people.
Title: Re: Adobe Admit New Import Dialogue in 6.2 Is Not A New Feature With Any Value
Post by: john beardsworth on October 09, 2015, 06:35:37 am
So a new background process is actually a new feature? Not really.
Title: Re: Adobe Admit New Import Dialogue in 6.2 Is Not A New Feature With Any Value
Post by: jjj on October 09, 2015, 06:48:45 am
Just because something isn't foreground has no bearing on whether it is a new feature or not.
Doing something different from before, that is the important thing.
Title: Re: Adobe Admit New Import Dialogue in 6.2 Is Not A New Feature With Any Value
Post by: john beardsworth on October 09, 2015, 07:04:33 am
Just because something isn't foreground has no bearing on whether it is a new feature or not.
Doing something different from before, that is the important thing.

Sorry, I can't be bothered arguing about wilful misinterpretations.

Updated to add quoted content.
Title: Re: Adobe Admit New Import Dialogue in 6.2 Is Not A New Feature With Any Value
Post by: nicsut on October 09, 2015, 07:39:21 am
Sorry, I can't be bothered arguing about wilful misinterpretations.

So you should have just shut up then, rather than continuing your personal attacks. 

... You can certainly interpret it to mean updates to existing features, but that's twisting it.

Hard to see why you say I am twisting something that you yourself say is a CERTAIN interpretation.  Don't appreciate your insinuations of dishonnesty on my part.
Title: Re: Adobe Admit New Import Dialogue in 6.2 Is Not A New Feature With Any Value
Post by: john beardsworth on October 09, 2015, 07:47:31 am
So you should have just shut up then, rather than continuing your personal attacks. 

Sorry, there was no personal attack of any kind. I was responding to jjj - I should have quoted him.
Title: Re: Adobe Admit New Import Dialogue in 6.2 Is Not A New Feature With Any Value
Post by: john beardsworth on October 09, 2015, 07:54:47 am
Hard to see why you say I am twisting something that you yourself say is a CERTAIN interpretation.  Don't appreciate your insinuations of dishonnesty on my part.

No, I am simply saying that interpreting "feature updates" as "updates to existing features" would be twisting its meaning to prove your case. The words are vague enough to allow that, but we all know it's not what they meant.
Title: Re: Adobe Admit New Import Dialogue in 6.2 Is Not A New Feature With Any Value
Post by: jjj on October 09, 2015, 08:56:27 am
Sorry, I can't be bothered arguing about wilful misinterpretations.
No wilful misinterpretation.
The vagueness and moving goalposts of what is and isn't a 'new' feature is why things are fuzzy.
Title: Re: Adobe Admit New Import Dialogue in 6.2 Is Not A New Feature With Any Value
Post by: ButchM on October 09, 2015, 09:00:37 am
No, I am simply saying that interpreting "feature updates" as "updates to existing features" would be twisting its meaning to prove your case. The words are vague enough to allow that, but we all know it's not what they meant.

In my mind, it really isn't the definition or acceptance of semantics that is troubling ... the new Import dialog is actually a feature removal and de-enhancement in many respects ... not an update, enhancement or improvement to anything that existed previously.

It is more than evident that this new Import dialog has measurably less capabilities than the prior version. So much so that a very significant group of users are either avoiding this latest update altogether or are rolling back to 6.1.1 to avoid this 'update to existing features' ... Not to mention nearly every Adobe evangelist and educator have gone to great lengths to show users how to turn off some of these new 'enhancements to existing features' (that were never available previously) to avoid taking a huge hit on resources that significantly slow down many systems.

I fail to see how defining these issues to such 'legally' stringent, technical levels helps anyone when the end result will not change regardless of how we individually refer to or label these issues.

My view is, in v6.2/2015.2 Adobe screwed the pooch with Import dialog with this latest iteration. Others are free to define the issue as they wish.
Title: Re: Adobe Admit New Import Dialogue in 6.2 Is Not A New Feature With Any Value
Post by: kirkt on October 09, 2015, 10:14:07 am
Given Adobe's Lightroom Team blog entry about the new update:

http://blogs.adobe.com/lightroomjournal/2015/10/update-on-lightroom-2015-2-lightroom-6-2-release.html

it seems that Lightroom may be "evolving" toward an application for users that have yet to use it, not the application that innovates for its legions of users that have made it one of the most popular pieces of photography software on the market.  Hopefully, Schewe's thread here on LuLa (remember this?):

http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=78240.0

was for real and photographers will ultimately have a modern, high quality, efficient, fast and flexible tool to look forward to that overcomes the trend toward oversimplification and an emphasis on mobile platforms and online sharing (Dear Lightroom, see Aperture users' reaction to Photos).  A "Lightroom for Photographers," ironically enough.  One can always hope.

That blog post from Adobe is interesting.

kirk
Title: Re: Adobe Admit New Import Dialogue in 6.2 Is Not A New Feature With Any Value
Post by: Rory on October 09, 2015, 11:06:37 am
I didn't know anything about Sharad Mangalick and I found this somewhat vapid interview (http://www.slrlounge.com/speak-adobes-lightroom-product-manager-industry-trends/) from May, 2014.  Here is an excerpt of one interesting Q/A (Italics are mine):

Quote
But there seems to be a move to cater Lightroom to more basic users, even bundling LR with low to mid range camera purchases. Does this stem from the more demanding amateur consumer?

“The trend is that post processing is coming into everyone’s view. People use it all the time in all different applications. Instagram is doing it, but people don’t notice it much, but they want it. The new cameras are exposing tech to a higher swatch of the market and putting a bigger spotlight on post processing. If people are more conscious of the photos they’re taking and their processing, the onus is there for our software to seize the opportunity.

We are going to make it so simple that they won’t have to think about it much differently. We won’t make Lightroom so the pros won’t use it, but so that people who want to do basic things can do that too in LR.”

I guess we are seeing the first manifestation of this strategy. 
Title: Re: Adobe Admit New Import Dialogue in 6.2 Is Not A New Feature With Any Value
Post by: ButchM on October 09, 2015, 11:17:04 am
" ... We won’t make Lightroom so the pros won’t use it, but so that people who want to do basic things can do that too in LR.”

Well, v6.2/2015.2 proves that he was so hell bent accomplish the latter, he alienated many of the former ...

Title: Re: Adobe Admit New Import Dialogue in 6.2 Is Not A New Feature With Any Value
Post by: Anthony.Ralph on October 09, 2015, 11:49:35 am
Well, v6.2/2015.2 proves that he was so hell bent accomplish the latter, he alienated many of the former ...

...and didn't achieve anything for the former either in my opinion.

Anthony.
Title: Re: Adobe Admit New Import Dialogue in 6.2 Is Not A New Feature With Any Value
Post by: adias on October 09, 2015, 01:54:45 pm
Sorry, there was no personal attack of any kind. I was responding to jjj - I should have quoted him.

Maybe not a direct personal attack, but passive aggressiveness? Do you work for Adobe?

Product forums are places to raise questions, criticism, praise, and even frustration. But not to poke others.
Title: Re: Adobe Admit New Import Dialogue in 6.2 Is Not A New Feature With Any Value
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on October 09, 2015, 02:12:44 pm
No, I am simply saying that interpreting "feature updates" as "updates to existing features" would be twisting its meaning to prove your case. The words are vague enough to allow that, but we all know it's not what they meant.

I disagree, a functional downgrade is just that. Sometimes it's justified, e.g. to remove interface clutter or features that are not used by anybody.

Updates, always, build on prior functionality and should be an improvement, like debugging, fixing errors, speedups, better accuracy, etc.

Upgrades introduce new functionality.

It's really not that hard to explain, unless one is trying to 'spin' things into meaning something else.

The plain truth is that Adobe wants to attract as many new users as possible to their subscription model, so they can drain their finances for as long as possible. Therefore they lower the bar for entry, like making mobile versions free.  From a business point of view, completely understandable. From a user perspective it remains a downgrade, on some aspects, but hopefully offset by the new features like local adjustment Dehaze so that users don't jump ship immediately.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Adobe Admit New Import Dialogue in 6.2 Is Not A New Feature With Any Value
Post by: john beardsworth on October 09, 2015, 02:13:36 pm
Maybe not a direct personal attack, but passive aggressiveness? Do you work for Adobe?

Product forums are places to raise questions, criticism, praise, and even frustration. But not to poke others.

Are you training to be an amateur psychologist? The poster misunderstood my comment because I'd not quoted and made crystal clear that I wasn't responding to his post. FFS.
Title: Re: Adobe Admit New Import Dialogue in 6.2 Is Not A New Feature With Any Value
Post by: nicsut on October 09, 2015, 03:02:51 pm
Are you training to be an amateur psychologist? The poster misunderstood my comment because I'd not quoted and made crystal clear that I wasn't responding to his post. FFS.

Speaking as the poster concerned, how about you go read the thread again and get you facts straight.  You criticised jjj indeed quoting him, and you criticised me in an earlier post.  I responded to both.  Get off your high horse, either that or live up to you promise and bow out of this one.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Adobe Admit New Import Dialogue in 6.2 Is Not A New Feature With Any Value
Post by: john beardsworth on October 09, 2015, 03:14:25 pm
Speaking as the poster concerned, how about you go read the thread again and get you facts straight.  You criticised jjj indeed quoting him, and you criticised me in an earlier post.  I responded to both.  Get off your high horse, either that or live up to you promise and bow out of this one.

Put your spectacles on and you get your facts straight..... I resplied to jjj and used "wilful misinterpretations" without quoting at 7:04, you posted that that phrase was a personal attack at 07:39. At 07:47 I said "I should have quoted him" and I edited my 7:04 post at 07:48:16 including the words "Updated to add quoted content." Get off your own high horse and shut up. FFS.
Title: Re: Adobe Admit New Import Dialogue in 6.2 Is Not A New Feature With Any Value
Post by: Christopher Sanderson on October 09, 2015, 03:55:47 pm
This thread has degenerated into name-calling. I am locking it.

The topic however is worthy of further and ongoing discussion. I encourage those that wish to hold a civilized (if hot) debate to start another thread and to avoid misunderstandings and name-calling.

Chris