Luminous Landscape Forum

The Art of Photography => The Coffee Corner => Topic started by: landscapephoto on September 27, 2015, 08:40:13 am

Title: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
Post by: landscapephoto on September 27, 2015, 08:40:13 am
I used to be a sound engineer when not taking photographs. I recorded concerts, mainly classical music. For classical music, one of the objectives for the sound engineer is to sound as close as possible to the live performance.

Surprisingly few sound engineers can actually do that. Most recordings sound nothing like an actual concert. This is a continuous source of frustration for the performers, who actually know how the instruments sound like because they actually go to concerts. “Audiophiles”, on the other hand, rarely listen to music outside of their sound system, so they have no external reference points.

I’ll give an example. We recorded a piano concert. The piano is an instrument that is notoriously difficult to record and the musicians told us that it was the first time that a recording sounded like a real piano. On “audiophile” forums, our recording was criticised as “lacking dynamic” and “being almost monophonic”. I pointed out that there was only ONE piano, it was right in front of the audience and, in a concert, the sound indeed came from a single point: the piano. There. Right in front of you. Of course it sounds “almost monophonic”, because there is only ONE piano. On other recordings, less “monophonic” ones, the listener had the effect that bass notes and treble notes would be on opposite sides, but this is not what happens when one listens to a real piano unless one puts its head right into the instrument.

The “audiophiles” would not have it. They did not want a recording which sounded “almost monophonic” and mocked us.

I could record differently. It is not particularly difficult and, for example in the case of pop music, the sound engineer needs to create a particular rendering for the sound of the instruments. There is a whole industry of filters for that. On forums catering to people recording music, I would get praise if my recordings sound like the latest fashionable filter, but what satisfaction is there in applying the design of others? In these forums, there are groups of people defending particular trends in processing, it sometimes even seem that some accounts are shills from a particular company. What I hoped in joining a forum was to meet like-minded people and discuss how to record audio. I did not get that, the forums appear to be advertisement for particular processing, religious wars and bragging about expensive microphones.

Then, there are the forums catering to amateurs of music. I don’t have a place there, they are only interested by the performances. The heroes there are the musicians, but I don’t compose music or play an instrument, I just record. The amateurs of music have no interest on how the music is recorded, if the performance was recorded on an iPhone they would be almost as pleased, as long as the performance is interesting.

What if I recorded something else than music? This also exists: there are people who put in microphone in a crowd, record the sound for half an hour and have a CD pressed. Unfortunately for me, this works like the art market and I don’t have the contacts to do that. Besides, the buyers have no real interest in the quality of the recording (some of them sound quite bad) but only in the fame of the artist who did the recording.

So I left this hobby. It was just incredibly frustrating not to find anyone like minded, to have nobody to actually share on the subject of recording. I could have made it a profession and record concerts for a fee, but the pay was far too low to be worth it. And just doing that on week-end was too frustrating when I had nobody to discuss what I was doing and, when a CD was produced, everybody congratulated the musicians and forgot about my work.
Title: Re: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
Post by: Rob C on September 27, 2015, 09:19:38 am
Well, it's no different in photography. Take the two links you posted to that Oriental gentleman with his 8"x10": OOf images writ large. Why bother with large format? Shoot the damned things on 120 roll, either unfocussed in camera or, better yet, sharply focussed in camera but printed OOF in the darkroom. That way, he could even print to suit different clients. Hell, he could even try printing through a Softar held below the enlarger lens. Unexpected look you can get from that too, spreading not what you thought you were going to spread.

I watched in disbelief as his architect friend spoke about the works... may be that something got lost in translation.

The art market is a bad joke. There are very competent artists making great stuff and they wil never get a chance; they neither have the connections nor, for that matter, will they experience the fortunate coup de foudre that launches them into the limelight.

It's a crapshoot as big as everything else, especially music, where it, too, revolves around the hype that some artists can attract. Was a time female singers were often plain Janes: today, is there a single one who isn't really or artificially the mate of all desires?

I guess your chosen interest in sound - as explained in your post - will perhaps mirror the film/digital arguments too.

Sometimes I envy those with no aesthetic pretensions whatsoever. For them, a urinal is ever a urinal, and an empty seascape an empty seascape. Without imaginary complications. I guess if we accept and enjoy our own pretensions, then we have but ourselves to blame or to love.

I was in Hamilton's Gallery in London, many years ago, looking at a show by Robert Mapplethorpe's photographer brother. As I stood looking, a guy behind me was talking to a woman and 'explaining' how wonderful the photographer to have captured the 'texture' of the woodchip paper behind the human subject. One sidelight, and how to avoid that texture? I actually turned around to look at the guy. He wore a tweed jacket and corduroy trousers. I thought: Rob, keep your trap shut, rest your effin' case and get the hell out of here. I did both. Then I read the late Jeanloup Sieff's views on 'curators' and various art-world sharks and shysters and feel comforted. And Sieff had more photo shows than I have hairs on my head! More scathing thoughts about such people I have never read anywhere else! Worth the price of the book for that alone.

Rob C
Title: Re: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
Post by: Justinr on September 27, 2015, 09:36:54 am
I did not get that, the forums appear to be advertisement for particular processing, religious wars and bragging about expensive microphones.



Indeed, and you'll see the same here, just go questioning AE for example and you'll soon be told what a crap photographer you are!
Title: Re: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
Post by: amolitor on September 27, 2015, 09:42:00 am
 I'm not a sound guy. At all. I know some guys, though, and I've fooled around with some gear.

It strikes me that sound recording has some of the same features as photography, for sure.

You can go for realistic, which will fail, but you can try to get closer in this way out that. And that can be a fun albeit expensive game.

Or you can go for conceptual. Not necessarily outré but non realistic. What is your idea of this piece of music? What's your point of view? And how can the recording capture that?

A stupid and simple idea: in Peter and the Wolf, each character's theme should move across the stage in a manner that suits the character and the scene.

How do ducks, cats, and wolves move? And how can you express that with your tools?
Title: Re: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
Post by: landscapephoto on September 27, 2015, 11:31:30 am
Well, it's no different in photography. Take the two links you posted to that Oriental gentleman with his 8"x10": OOf images writ large. Why bother with large format? Shoot the damned things on 120 roll, either unfocussed in camera or, better yet, sharply focussed in camera but printed OOF in the darkroom. That way, he could even print to suit different clients. Hell, he could even try printing through a Softar held below the enlarger lens. Unexpected look you can get from that too, spreading not what you thought you were going to spread.

I watched in disbelief as his architect friend spoke about the works... may be that something got lost in translation.

I suspect that you are talking about Hiroshi Sugimoto.

The real story is the following. Hiroshi Sugimoto got famous for this kind of pictures:

(http://c4gallery.com/artist/database/hiroshi-sugimoto/seascapes/sugimoto-seascape-baltic-sea-ruegen-1996.jpg)

Here on the web, the picture may not be that impressive but the original is a massive print. Really big. Size matters. And Hiroshi Sugimoto got famous in Japan first. As you undoubtedly know, Japan is an Island, so the sea is never really far. And if you grow on an island, or maybe near the sea, you have a special feeling about the sea: it is always there. It is the final frontier, it borders your world. Right after this last mountain, you will always find it and you cannot go any further.

I grew by the sea. When I saw the first picture of the sea by Hiroshi Sugimoto's, I was amazed. I realised this was exactly the feeling I had as a child and never managed to put words to it. But suddenly it was there in front of me and I remember when I was a child and the sea was always behind the last mountain.

So Hiroshi Sugimoto got famous for a good reason.

But then, indeed, from that point onwards he looked for his next idea. And I don't think he ever found it, but it did not stopped the critics praising him of course. Because at that point he was already famous and the prints sold for lots of money.
Title: Re: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on September 27, 2015, 11:48:09 am
Hi,

There are some similarities, but also many differences between sound recording and photography. But both can be done with or without technical skills, the results will be different and more, or less, usable for certain usage.

With sound, assuming we're talking about a performance and not a sound sample, there is a composition and an interpretation and execution by a/several performer(s). There is already a lot of creative work done before one gets to even listen to it.

Then the recording part is also something that can make a huge difference in the ability to reproduce the performance. Location acoustics, placement of instruments, placement of microphones, and specifics of the recording process (types of microphones and their frequency response, dynamic range), amplification, and last but not least the mixing of it all.

Photography has some similarities with regards to composition/perspective/lighting, and a reproduction records the artistic achievement of someone else. It then comes down to being able to record the subject/object in such a way that we can reproduce it faithfully (which is close to impossible even for a reproduction), or use it as a basis for our creative intent and vision.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
Post by: landscapephoto on September 27, 2015, 11:55:05 am
So everybody recognised the parallel with photography. It is just that Rob picked the part about the art market, Justin about forums, Andrew is trying to find a solution for me and Bart to prove that it is not quite the same.

Of course there is a parallel with photography.

We have the crowd with resolution charts, dynamic range and an X-rite target in the corner of each picture. We also have the instagram crowd and people producing landscapes which are the equivalent of Thomas Kinkade on acid. And, just as the people listening to CDs are interested in the music, the people watching the picture of the pretty girl, news event or landscape are only interested about who is that girl, what happened at the event and where is the landscape. Not in how you took it.

Now my next question is the following. I don't want to end up in an audiophile forum discussing the properties of golden cables. What hobbies do you suggest I take to replace sound recording?
Title: Re: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
Post by: amolitor on September 27, 2015, 12:08:27 pm
Book binding! Somewhere someone is probably arguing about which brand of linen thread is best for restoring rice paper books, but I haven't found him yet.
Title: Re: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
Post by: landscapephoto on September 27, 2015, 12:15:18 pm
Book biding. Brilliant idea, Andrew. We all know that book users do not care about what is written in them but only about how the book is assembled.

You have a weird sense of humour.
Title: Re: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
Post by: Jimbo57 on September 27, 2015, 12:16:35 pm
I pointed out that there was only ONE piano, it was right in front of the audience and, in a concert, the sound indeed came from a single point: the piano. There. Right in front of you. Of course it sounds “almost monophonic”, because there is only ONE piano.

That short extract demonstrates that the poster knows very little about concert sound.

Of course a piano is a single source (albeit quite a large single source), but the whole point of listening to a piano concert is that the acoustics of a good concert hall treat different frequencies differently and different harmonics will appear to "surround" the listener in the audience (and do so differently for listeners in different areas of the concert hall).

So the critics were absolutely correct to complain that the recording "sounded almost monophonic" - if it was a decent multi-channel recording made of a piano in a well designed and constructed concert hall, it would most certainly NOT sound monophonic.

Title: Re: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
Post by: Rob C on September 27, 2015, 12:22:24 pm
Man, that's impossible: it's the equivalent of the questions over the page in this same book, where folks want somebody else to tell them which camera to buy to shoot b/white! Jeez.

But music's a far better medium than photography. Photography is so one-dimensional (in a spiritual way) whereas music takes hold of your mind, heart and soul. Look at this, for example: just a little figurine in motion, but with the music underlining it, she rocks! Sexier that any woman you're likely to see actually doing the moves. Funny thing: many of the people I used to see throwing it about on the dance floor were the very ones that should have sat it out and got quietly pissed instead.. Democracy, I guess.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfCaG0yND-U

I live beside the sea too; I never felt it to be anything but fascinating, come storm or calm; the giant blowups don't, for me, convey a goddam thing beyond ultimate boredom. But somebody else already does them as badly - going to say worse, but that's exaggeration - only in colour. It's the equivalent of shooting an empty stage. The equivalent, too, of my landscapes, which always make me think I'm still looking for a backdrop for something else... I don't bother with trying them anymore.

;-)

Rob C



Title: Re: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
Post by: amolitor on September 27, 2015, 12:38:19 pm
The audiophiles are coming. Run for it!
Title: Re: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
Post by: Torbjörn Tapani on September 27, 2015, 12:45:02 pm
Here is a hobby.  Painting. Tying to do a Vermeer with no formal training. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim%27s_Vermeer
Title: Re: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
Post by: Justinr on September 27, 2015, 01:34:07 pm
So everybody recognised the parallel with photography. It is just that Rob picked the part about the art market, Justin about forums, Andrew is trying to find a solution for me and Bart to prove that it is not quite the same.

Of course there is a parallel with photography.

We have the crowd with resolution charts, dynamic range and an X-rite target in the corner of each picture. We also have the instagram crowd and people producing landscapes which are the equivalent of Thomas Kinkade on acid. And, just as the people listening to CDs are interested in the music, the people watching the picture of the pretty girl, news event or landscape are only interested about who is that girl, what happened at the event and where is the landscape. Not in how you took it.

Now my next question is the following. I don't want to end up in an audiophile forum discussing the properties of golden cables. What hobbies do you suggest I take to replace sound recording?

At the end of the day we all want to be king of whichever island we alight upon. This is all well and good and we can march around our little terrain, marking it out with our unsavoury glands while admitting to the fact that there are other islands, the furthest away being the bigger and worthy of our praise while the closer are the smaller and deserving of our contempt. It's a grand life until another fellow is washed up on the beach who we fear may also wish to be the monarch of what we have come to think of our own, and that means war, for our superiority has to be asserted and proven, to not only ourselves but the all the kings on their islands to reaffirm our place in the great scheme of life.
Title: Re: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
Post by: landscapephoto on September 27, 2015, 03:56:22 pm
At the end of the day we all want to be king of whichever island we alight upon. This is all well and good and we can march around our little terrain, marking it out with our unsavoury glands while admitting to the fact that there are other islands, the furthest away being the bigger and worthy of our praise while the closer are the smaller and deserving of our contempt. It's a grand life until another fellow is washed up on the beach who we fear may also wish to be the monarch of what we have come to think of our own, and that means war, for our superiority has to be asserted and proven, to not only ourselves but the all the kings on their islands to reaffirm our place in the great scheme of life.

Quite frankly, I don't want to be the king of anything. All I want is to have a nice hobby and some friends to discuss and exchange. It used to be like that. Taking audio as an example, I used to frequent forums where people discussed which devices worked and which did not (e.g. the perils of real-time on older computers...), which ones of the early cheap Chinese microphones worked correctly (a few were good copies and worked surprisingly well), etc... I learned a lot and tried to give as much back. Nobody was the king of anything.
Title: Re: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
Post by: Justinr on September 27, 2015, 04:12:58 pm
[quote au ;Dthor=landscapephoto link=topic=104193.msg855921#msg855921 date=1443383782]
Quite frankly, I don't want to be the king of anything. All I want is to have a nice hobby and some friends to discuss and exchange. It used to be like that. Taking audio as an example, I used to frequent forums where people discussed which devices worked and which did not (e.g. the perils of real-time on older computers...), which ones of the early cheap Chinese microphones worked correctly (a few were good copies and worked surprisingly well), etc... I learned a lot and tried to give as much back. Nobody was the king of anything.
[/quote]

Ah, but this is photography!  ;D
Title: Re: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
Post by: Telecaster on September 27, 2015, 04:47:06 pm
I've found the best way to keep enjoying my favorite pursuits is to talk/type about them as little as possible while doing them as much as possible. Here I comment on this or that aspect of photography while saying very little about, and showing virtually none of, what I actually do with cameras & lenses. Same goes elsewhere regarding playing & recording music (I do both). This is how I keep my enjoyment of taking photos alive. YMMV.

I will say this about music: if I were to listen to, say, The Beatles in order to savor the micing techniques of Geoff Emerick or the tape machine manipulation skills of Ken Townsend I'd be seriously missing the point. The techniques & skills are means to an end, but the end is the music itself. To put it another way: I record to document (sometimes "accurately," sometimes not so much) what I've played, not the other way 'round.

If my interest were primarily in mics rather than music I'd probably be one of those folks making ambient "found sound" recordings where the point is to showcase the mics and/or other aspects of recording technology & technique. Unless I didn't mind going mostly unrecognized for my skills I'd steer clear of music.

-Dave-
Title: Re: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
Post by: David Sutton on September 27, 2015, 04:52:44 pm
Landscapephoto, as a photographer and working musician I think you are barking up the wrong tree. If you want a friendly hobby you can share with others then looking to a forum is the wrong place. There is no substitute for mixing with real people face to face, learning to get on together and having fun with your shared interest. Camera clubs are good. Start one up. Open mike nights for musicians are fun. Use your skills and start one up. We all need to get out of our chairs more and make eye contact.
Title: Re: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
Post by: Tim Lookingbill on September 27, 2015, 05:25:04 pm
There is no substitute for mixing with real people face to face, learning to get on together and having fun with your shared interest. Camera clubs are good. Start one up. Open mike nights for musicians are fun. Use your skills and start one up. We all need to get out of our chairs more and make eye contact.

That depends on where you live.

It didn't go so well for me joining a camera club in an old German town where I live between Austin and San Antonio, Texas. Quite a few of the members are WWII vets over 60 years of age and I raised concerns over safety and developing a contingency plan in case of an emergency having a large group driving long distances out to remote areas to photograph when there was so many untapped opportunities in our beautiful town. I mean our town's one art gallery has only a few photos of the area.

I got a troubling, stern reply by one of the stone faced quiet tough guy types who said if I was someone who has a dark cloud over my head that it's best I don't go with them. He didn't offer any other constructive answer than that. And in fact the leader of the club, a rather unhealthy looking, obese elderly woman who had to walk with a cane, added that if she ever has a heart attach out in those remote areas she wants to be left to die with no attempts at resuscitation.

I left quite shortly after that looking for the nearest happy place.
Title: Re: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
Post by: Justinr on September 27, 2015, 06:40:33 pm
That depends on where you live.

It didn't go so well for me joining a camera club in an old German town where I live between Austin and San Antonio, Texas. Quite a few of the members are WWII vets over 60 years of age and I raised concerns over safety and developing a contingency plan in case of an emergency having a large group driving long distances out to remote areas to photograph when there was so many untapped opportunities in our beautiful town. I mean our town's one art gallery has only a few photos of the area.

I got a troubling, stern reply by one of the stone faced quiet tough guy types who said if I was someone who has a dark cloud over my head that it's best I don't go with them. He didn't offer any other constructive answer than that. And in fact the leader of the club, a rather unhealthy looking, obese elderly woman who had to walk with a cane, added that if she ever has a heart attach out in those remote areas she wants to be left to die with no attempts at resuscitation.

I left quite shortly after that looking for the nearest happy place.

You'd have to wonder whether photography was the true purpose of that collection of folk. Maybe they just wanted an excuse to be miserable in each others company.

As for the large lady then it reminds me of a farming family I once knew. The old man was a grand, cheerful and sprightly fellow in his eighties who was loved by all, friends family and neighbours alike. One day when I got to the farm he wasn't there with his usual words of greeting so I carried on as normal until the son came out to explain that he had died the week before, a heart attack while out picking out mushrooms in the fields that he had farmed since he was a boy. I went to express my genuine sorrow but was stopped short with a quiet smile. "Oh no" the fellow said, "it couldn't have ended for him in a better way, he never wanted to die in a hospital," and then, looking up at the valley sides in the warming autumn sunshine, with the last of the late dew drying on the grass, he swept his hand over the scene while adding, "and who can blame him, I hope I go that way when the time comes."  He made it sound like a reward for the life of hard work his father had put into the land.
Title: Re: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
Post by: landscapephoto on September 27, 2015, 10:03:07 pm
I will say this about music: if I were to listen to, say, The Beatles in order to savor the micing techniques of Geoff Emerick or the tape machine manipulation skills of Ken Townsend I'd be seriously missing the point. The techniques & skills are means to an end, but the end is the music itself. To put it another way: I record to document (sometimes "accurately," sometimes not so much) what I've played, not the other way 'round.

Exactly. And this is why recording is not suited to being a hobby, I found out.


Quote
I've found the best way to keep enjoying my favorite pursuits is to talk/type about them as little as possible while doing them as much as possible. Here I comment on this or that aspect of photography while saying very little about, and showing virtually none of, what I actually do with cameras & lenses. Same goes elsewhere regarding playing & recording music (I do both). This is how I keep my enjoyment of taking photos alive. YMMV.

So you are producing photographs and music recording that you show to nobody and that nobody listens to? Do I understand correctly?
Title: Re: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
Post by: TomFrerichs on September 27, 2015, 11:04:17 pm
I'm in sympathy with Telecaster.

Photography is my hobby, and while I may share some of my vision with others, it's the satisfaction I get from my own work that keeps me motivated. If I didn't enjoy what I was doing, then why would I want to spend time doing it?

Certainly I appreciate other's enjoyment when they look at what I've done, but that's the cream. Many photographers that I talk to are very interested in landscapes, flowers, and wildlife, but the kind of photographs I enjoy making speak to my own interests and don't fit into any of those categories. Seriously, I live in Colorado near the mountains and don't have a single photograph of an aspen grove in fall glory. I have two photographs of flowers, one of which is a dying sunflower.  And I jokingly tell other photographers that my only wildlife shots are one of my cat and one of a dragonfly.

As an example, I've got some damned good photographs of rodeo events. The landscape/flower/wildlife folks aren't all that interested--indeed, some are animal rights activists ready to string me up. That doesn't bother me, because the folks who participate in the sport appreciate what I did. And their approval means more to me.

Someone mentioned camera clubs.  My experience with the local clubs has been uniformly bad, primarily because the ones I've visited seem to have been co-opted by the "competition crazed." I've always believed that it's better to concentrate on better communicating what one saw and felt than worry about how many points or ribbons or awards you could get. There are of course other clubs that aren't so much into competition, but they concentrate on wildlife or landscapes. Not quite what I care about.

I guess the bottom line is this: for my hobby I absolutely refuse to depend upon other's approbation. My photographs may--probably do--suck, but it doesn't matter to me.  They're my creation for my pleasure, and that's enough for me.

Title: Re: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
Post by: landscapephoto on September 27, 2015, 11:24:43 pm
I'm in sympathy with Telecaster.

Photography is my hobby, and while I may share some of my vision with others, it's the satisfaction I get from my own work that keeps me motivated. If I didn't enjoy what I was doing, then why would I want to spend time doing it?

Certainly I appreciate other's enjoyment when they look at what I've done, but that's the cream. Many photographers that I talk to are very interested in landscapes, flowers, and wildlife, but the kind of photographs I enjoy making speak to my own interests and don't fit into any of those categories. Seriously, I live in Colorado near the mountains and don't have a single photograph of an aspen grove in fall glory. I have two photographs of flowers, one of which is a dying sunflower.  And I jokingly tell other photographers that my only wildlife shots are one of my cat and one of a dragonfly.

As an example, I've got some damned good photographs of rodeo events. The landscape/flower/wildlife folks aren't all that interested--indeed, some are animal rights activists ready to string me up. That doesn't bother me, because the folks who participate in the sport appreciate what I did. And their approval means more to me.

Someone mentioned camera clubs.  My experience with the local clubs has been uniformly bad, primarily because the ones I've visited seem to have been co-opted by the "competition crazed." I've always believed that it's better to concentrate on better communicating what one saw and felt than worry about how many points or ribbons or awards you could get. There are of course other clubs that aren't so much into competition, but they concentrate on wildlife or landscapes. Not quite what I care about.

I guess the bottom line is this: for my hobby I absolutely refuse to depend upon other's approbation. My photographs may--probably do--suck, but it doesn't matter to me.  They're my creation for my pleasure, and that's enough for me.

But you get approbation from others: you wrote earlier that "the folks who participate in rodeo sport appreciate what I did and their approval means more to me".
Title: Re: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
Post by: TomFrerichs on September 27, 2015, 11:57:40 pm
From an earlier message of yours:

All I want is to have a nice hobby and some friends to discuss and exchange. It used to be like that. Taking audio as an example, I used to frequent forums where people discussed which devices worked and which did not (e.g. the perils of real-time on older computers...), which ones of the early cheap Chinese microphones worked correctly (a few were good copies and worked surprisingly well), etc... I learned a lot and tried to give as much back.

There is a difference. The rodeo folks I was talking about don't give a damn about my f/stop or the DR of my sensor or how much I can push the ISO. I don't talk to them about the craft of photography.  But it appears that you're seeking a hobby where you can discuss the craft involved.

I was trying to say that I feel no need to talk about "photography" as a craft or to take part, either virtually via the web or in person, with photographers whose primary interest is in that craft. While I have an interest in the technical side and appreciate the work done by those that wring out every bit of detail, I don't really want to talk about MFT graphs or the effects of activating VR while using a tripod. Don't get me wrong. I'll cheerfully plunder their treasure chest full of knowledge; I'm just not interested in shooting test charts.  I figure it's much better to be a Viking than a monk. 

In other words, I don't feel the need to talk about photography as craft with anyone to enjoy it. I do admit that I appreciate in-person critiques of my efforts because I want to understand how someone else is reading my photographs, but that kind of interaction isn't common.

So, I guess I'll end up saying that I have nothing for you. From what I've read and understood from your comments, you are looking for a hobby where you can discuss the practice with other hobbyists.  I'm saying that I don't feel that need and, therefore, can't offer any constructive advice.
Title: Re: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
Post by: Rob C on September 28, 2015, 04:22:46 am
Aircraft.

I know two guys out here who are into 'planes and especially anything that flew during WW2.

There are magazines to buy, all manner of stuff, and the beauty is, you don't have to produce a thing - just talk about it!

Perfect. If you dig aircraft.

Photo clubs. Waste of time today, when anyone can have a virtual darkroom right there on the monitor. You learn more about photography (if you feel like it) from looking at books from the past, or even at Internet collections of old snappers' efforts, than any bloody club has either the wish or ability to offer. As for techie books - why bother? It's all freely available here on LuLa, with so many people perfectly happy to help out with technical problems. I have sometimes been referred to books for advice, but, however, I have the mentality that learns best from demonstration, by simple example of steps performed on a single image. This seems more likely to be found person-to-person online than from any book I have bought. I had an original Photoshop book and it was so opaque I stopped trying. I bought the Photographer's Guide to Photoshop by Barrie Thomas and that remains as opaque as did the Adobe.

To learn, I need: Step 1. > Step 2. > Step 3. > Etc. That works! Once understood it can be applied as required. Maybe it makes digital look too easy, so there's no future in writing books if you actually make it easy too.

Then again, there's the side to photography digital theory beloved in other sections of this site, where they constantly talk way over my head about this graph or the other and the importance of so many things that, AFAIK, bear no relationship to my going click! at what I hope isn't a millisecond too late.

So, for me, clubs would offer nothing, not even drinking clubs, unfortunately. But even those are not democratic: there's always the richer guy who feels obliged to pick up the tab more often that he should. Interesting the many ways of saying thanks, but you really shouldn't, I'll get them next time!

Aircraft seems safer.

Rob C
Title: Re: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
Post by: Justinr on September 28, 2015, 05:30:46 am
Aircraft.

I know two guys out here who are into 'planes and especially anything that flew during WW2.

There are magazines to buy, all manner of stuff, and the beauty is, you don't have to produce a thing - just talk about it!

Perfect. If you dig aircraft.

Photo clubs. Waste of time today, when anyone can have a virtual darkroom right there on the monitor. You learn more about photography (if you feel like it) from looking at books from the past, or even at Internet collections of old snappers' efforts, than any bloody club has either the wish or ability to offer. As for techie books - why bother? It's all freely available here on LuLa, with so many people perfectly happy to help out with technical problems. I have sometimes been referred to books for advice, but, however, I have the mentality that learns best from demonstration, by simple example of steps performed on a single image. This seems more likely to be found person-to-person online than from any book I have bought. I had an original Photoshop book and it was so opaque I stopped trying. I bought the Photographer's Guide to Photoshop by Barrie Thomas and that remains as opaque as did the Adobe.

To learn, I need: Step 1. > Step 2. > Step 3. > Etc. That works! Once understood it can be applied as required. Maybe it makes digital look too easy, so there's no future in writing books if you actually make it easy too.

Then again, there's the side to photography digital theory beloved in other sections of this site, where they constantly talk way over my head about this graph or the other and the importance of so many things that, AFAIK, bear no relationship to my going click! at what I hope isn't a millisecond too late.

So, for me, clubs would offer nothing, not even drinking clubs, unfortunately. But even those are not democratic: there's always the richer guy who feels obliged to pick up the tab more often that he should. Interesting the many ways of saying thanks, but you really shouldn't, I'll get them next time!

Aircraft seems safer.

Rob C

You always hated camera clubs, I don't know what they did to upset you but Like everything in life there are the good, the bad and the indifferent. I happened to fall in with a very good one, plenty of professional people in it (opticians, doctors, business managers and so on) who all took a keen and intelligent interest in the craft and, what's more, were willing to share their knowledge, very often on a one to one basis. Another club I knew didn't quite have that bank of expertise but were a cheerful bunch who just enjoyed their cameras and there is one around here who I believe are probably best avoided. Yes, there will always be prima donnas and know it alls who know little, that again is true of life generally. You have to take them as you find them.
Title: Re: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
Post by: Rob C on September 28, 2015, 08:36:46 am
You always hated camera clubs, I don't know what they did to upset you but Like everything in life there are the good, the bad and the indifferent. I happened to fall in with a very good one, plenty of professional people in it (opticians, doctors, business managers and so on) who all took a keen and intelligent interest in the craft and, what's more, were willing to share their knowledge, very often on a one to one basis. Another club I knew didn't quite have that bank of expertise but were a cheerful bunch who just enjoyed their cameras and there is one around here who I believe are probably best avoided. Yes, there will always be prima donnas and know it alls who know little, that again is true of life generally. You have to take them as you find them.

Photography is a solitary art or it's nothing.

Rob C
Title: Re: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
Post by: amolitor on September 28, 2015, 10:04:52 am
Photography is a solitary art or it's nothing.

Rob C

I find this to be true as well. Other people are great for answering technical questions beforehand. And of course it's nice if they like the things afterwards.

But at the moment it's just you and the stuff in front of the camera. Nobody can help you here. You either feel it or you don't.
Title: Re: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
Post by: Rob C on September 28, 2015, 11:18:02 am
I find this to be true as well. Other people are great for answering technical questions beforehand. And of course it's nice if they like the things afterwards.

But at the moment it's just you and the stuff in front of the camera. Nobody can help you here. You either feel it or you don't.


In my own experience, I found that to be so true (aloneness) that I found it very, very trying even to have a client hanging about; I'm sure that my discomfort was tangible... sometimes. (Fortunately, either because of the era or because I was lucky, and certainly because I ended up self-generating a lot of work, it seldom happened to me.) My wife used to go with me on some of the better shoots and assist with sprays, wardrobe and so on, as well as provide the models some escape into a girl's world, which I didn't really want to have to provide during non-working hours. Even then, there were times where it just worked better being alone with the model, especially if there were several. I think most people work better without critical eyes upon them, however practised.

In the 'personal', amateur mode, I know perfectly well that, accompanied, I would probably have missed 90% of the stuff I have today. That it may or may not please others is neither here nor there: what matters is that I got the chance to see the thing, do it, and then play around with it later on. For example: if out with anyone else, the moment that person lines up a shot I know that however good it may be, I am instantly precluded from trying it too. Just can't do that, and dislike it in reverse.

Perhaps women are different and can photograph during conversations too - they can certainly conduct six conversations at one time and miss not a word - I wish more women would contribute to LuLa; they offer such a lot of different perspectives that males either don't get or don't want to discuss. So much to learn.

But, photography demands concentration. I believe it was Avedon who remarked that you can't photograph and eff at the same time. Clearly, he ignored video, and quite rightly too. How uncivilised that would be.

Rob C
Title: Re: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
Post by: Justinr on September 28, 2015, 11:45:18 am
Photography is a solitary art or it's nothing.

Rob C

Maybe, or maybe not, we are not all the same, but it doesn't alter the fact that a well run and enthusiastic club can be a great place to learn with a wide range of views and styles to be absorbed if approached with an open mind.
Title: Re: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
Post by: landscapephoto on September 28, 2015, 01:09:13 pm
Just a small comment: the hobby I want to replace is recording, not photography. True, there are parallels, especially with the kind of photography which tries to reproduce reality (hence the title).

I don't plan to stop photography, even if it is a rather solitary activity, as noted by others. I like to be alone with my camera trying to find angles, etc... even if the pictures I produce do not interest many people.
Title: Re: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
Post by: Tim Lookingbill on September 28, 2015, 02:37:39 pm
Just a small comment: the hobby I want to replace is recording, not photography. True, there are parallels, especially with the kind of photography which tries to reproduce reality (hence the title).

I don't plan to stop photography, even if it is a rather solitary activity, as noted by others. I like to be alone with my camera trying to find angles, etc... even if the pictures I produce do not interest many people.

Never heard of "recording" as a hobby unless it's coupled with post processing (audio engineering). I'm a musician and very interested in many genre's of music as well as getting or finding the best sound quality, but mostly out of existing recorded content rather than capturing new content. I've got some early jazz/big band music the label rushed to CD's back in the mid to late '80's that sound anemic I've attempted to beef up in Audacity, a free digital audio editor.

Audacity's forums get into some very productive back & forth discussions for getting the best capture of vocals for voice talent attempting to make their own audio books using a DIY home recording studio. They give very detailed tips on mic placement, sound proofing and adding reverb and other Audacity plugins in post that clean up artifacts caused by electrical and room ambiance. They frequently post .mp3/.wav samples of their recordings to get others opinions. I've found the site to be very much like LuLa but for recording and editing and rarely ever saw shilling one product over another. Since Audacity is free there's not much incentive for advertising trolls to hang out.

Maybe you should look into similar DIY type forums instead of I'm having to assume high end professional audio forums whose discussions tend to veer into advertisements. I think all aspects of audio should make for a very fulfilling and interesting hobby and dont' see why one would have to limit themselves to just the act of recording.

This guy's YouTube site promoting his audio listening equipment uses the available mic on his Canon HD camera and captures better sound of multi-generation recorded content than most of my old jazz CD's...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9VTQdGRLHY

Now that's how a piano should sound!
Title: Re: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
Post by: landscapephoto on September 28, 2015, 03:21:55 pm
You are right: audio engineering, not just recording.
Title: Re: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
Post by: Tim Lookingbill on September 28, 2015, 03:46:52 pm
Besides I find audio history more fascinating on how some music was recorded than I do on how something was photographed. Just recently I found out what created the gorgeous reverb sound in Martin Denny's Exotica albums back in the late '50's using state of the art back then stereo recording techniques.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WK-dU22IMWU

Come to find out the entire album was recorded in the Kaiser Aluminum Dome in Honolulu, Hawaii which offers a 3 second natural reverberation. And I found that out tunneling down a number of nested google links on reverb in Martin Denny recordings and ended up on this obscure page on Arthur Lyman, the Holy Ghost of Exotica...

http://flashstrap.blogspot.com/2011/08/holy-ghost-of-exotica-weaving-dreams-in.html

I had a lot of fun looking for this.

 
Title: Re: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
Post by: Tim Lookingbill on September 28, 2015, 04:45:53 pm
And I made an error in assuming Martin Denny recorded in the Kaiser geodesic dome by associating it with the Lyman wiki. Some further searching indicates that stereo version of Black Orchid linked above was recorded at Liberty Records Studio in Hollywood in '58 according to this thread...

http://www.tikiroom.com/tikicentral/bb/viewtopic.php?topic=31464&forum=11&start=15

It still doesn't indicate how the reverb was created which is what I'm interested in.
Title: Re: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
Post by: Telecaster on September 28, 2015, 05:52:47 pm
So you are producing photographs and music recording that you show to nobody and that nobody listens to? Do I understand correctly?

Certainly not! I do take photos & record music mainly for my own enjoyment, and with few exceptions I keep it out of the online world. OTOH I often play music with other folks. We rarely record ourselves…the playing is usually improvisatory, intended to be here & then gone.

-Dave-
Title: Re: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
Post by: Telecaster on September 28, 2015, 06:19:35 pm
I'd say "recording" is a hobby for me, but not in the sense of aiming towards a particular goal like "naturalistic sound" or whathaveyou. It's just one long experiment: try stuff and hear what happens. If I like something in the moment I go with it, if not I try something else. One piece I'm currently working on started off as an electric guitar improv recorded via battery-powered mini amp on a Walkman cassette deck in a hotel room in Singapore in October 1997. The friend who owned the Walkman sent it to me (still works!) along with the tape for my birthday.  :)

-Dave-
Title: Re: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
Post by: degrub on September 28, 2015, 11:07:07 pm
Woodworking  ;)
Title: Re: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
Post by: Rob C on September 29, 2015, 04:33:11 am
Woodworking  ;)

Start with two thumbs, give up when there's but one.

Rob C
Title: Re: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
Post by: landscapephoto on September 29, 2015, 08:46:45 am
Woodworking  ;)

Now, that is a kind of hobby which is not related in any way to "reproducing reality". I should have thought of that.
Title: Re: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
Post by: Tarnash on September 30, 2015, 03:24:00 am
I've not read every post in this thread so, please forgive me if I'm doubling up on a previous suggestion.  Your clearly interested in audio recording and the negative critique you've received says more, perhaps, about the critics than your skills or dedication to the craft.  So, what about recording other sounds.  Wildlife for example.  There are a gazillion bird photographers (I'm one) but, in all my birding expeditions, I've only ever come across one sound recordist. I spent a fascinating half hour with him and learned quite a bit.  I hasten to add that I've no other experience in the audio field but imagine there are forums somewhere on the net where you can discuss equipment, locations, etc. and get feedback about your work.  There are too almost unlimited opportunities to learn about `performers'  and `performances' and I think you'd be most unlikely to encounter the kind of negative criticism you've previously experienced.  Oh! and if you should decide to go that way.  Take a camera and post some images.  Good luck!       
Title: Re: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
Post by: Jimbo57 on September 30, 2015, 06:25:23 am
Photography is a solitary art or it's nothing.

Rob C

Bollocks.

Photography is, above all else, a communicative art. Regarding it as a solitary art is akin to masturbation. (OK - that last bit is not original - I read it elsewhere but thought "How True".)

If your photographs do not convey meaning or engender emotion in others, then I fear you are wasting your time and your talent.
Title: Re: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
Post by: amolitor on September 30, 2015, 10:07:57 am
I think what Rob is saying, and what I am saying, is that photography is something that you do alone.
Title: Re: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
Post by: GrahamBy on September 30, 2015, 10:32:43 am
Now my next question is the following. I don't want to end up in an audiophile forum discussing the properties of golden cables. What hobbies do you suggest I take to replace sound recording?

Motorcycle racing has the advantage that after everyone has given their opinion on what works, the final opinion is given by the stopwatch.

Although even then there is a golden cable effect: plenty of stories of the tuner modifying a setting by one turn left, one turn right, and the rider going out and dropping 1s/lap because it feels better :-)

There is the disadvantage that it costs lots of money and it isn't kind to aging bones...
Title: Re: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
Post by: stamper on September 30, 2015, 10:58:46 am
I think what Rob is saying, and what I am saying, is that photography is something that you do alone.


Agreed.
Title: Re: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
Post by: Rob C on September 30, 2015, 01:08:56 pm
I think what Rob is saying, and what I am saying, is that photography is something that you do alone.


Indeed so, but some posts are only posted to start wars.

Folks generally do understand original meanings, but the 'fun', for some, lies in perversions of same.

Let it ride...

Rob C
Title: Re: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
Post by: Rob C on September 30, 2015, 03:23:02 pm
By delightful (and timely) coincidence, I just found this jewel in Jeanloup Sieff's eponymous book:

1.10.98 (his diary): Exactly as onanism is a solitary pursuit, so is photography; therefore, a "workshop'" must be defined as an orgy.

I have risked a thunderstorm to reopen the computer to give you this piece of news. Who says I don't care!

Rob C

Title: Re: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
Post by: RSL on September 30, 2015, 04:26:16 pm
I think what Rob is saying, and what I am saying, is that photography is something that you do alone.

+1
Title: Re: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
Post by: landscapephoto on September 30, 2015, 05:07:53 pm
Motorcycle racing has the advantage that after everyone has given their opinion on what works, the final opinion is given by the stopwatch.

That would be too competitive for me.
Title: Re: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
Post by: Tim Lookingbill on September 30, 2015, 05:13:38 pm
I think what Rob is saying, and what I am saying, is that photography is something that you do alone.

Don't think you'ld want to tell that to photographer's assistants and interns.
Title: Re: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
Post by: amolitor on September 30, 2015, 05:32:36 pm
I'd have no problem telling them that.

If you don't see why, in a room full of people with props, pointing the camera at one or more live models, photography is still an essentially solitary act, well, I can't explain it any better. So.
Title: Re: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
Post by: David Sutton on September 30, 2015, 06:35:51 pm
I think what Rob is saying, and what I am saying, is that photography is something that you do alone.

Like most things, that depends....   :)
Title: Re: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
Post by: Tim Lookingbill on September 30, 2015, 09:02:13 pm
I think there's the potential for endless riffing off that one quote.

David, thanks for the laugh.  :D