Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Mike Sellers on September 24, 2015, 10:24:35 am
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What does this cost-body only?
Mike
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See the Capture Integration box up top?
Click it.
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Body list is $7990.00. U.S.
This is with no trade in from DF+
Paul
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I see that the body with WL finder in under $7,000. The Hasselblad H5 X is about $6,000. This would be a tough choice!
Mike
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I see that the body with WL finder in under $7,000. The Hasselblad H5 X is about $6,000. This would be a tough choice!
Mike
No for me it wouldn't: I'd get a Pentax or Leica. Sensor thrown in for the same price, and in the case of Leica access to Contax and H optics.
Edmund
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I see that the body with WL finder in under $7,000. The Hasselblad H5 X is about $6,000. This would be a tough choice!
Mike
I don't see a "tough choice" Mike... one camera works with all market backs, the other with P1 IQ only... One of the cameras can be used with film... the other can't, one camera can do multishot with some backs, the other doesn't... With one of them you can keep your back, with the other not!
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Forgot to mention... one of the cameras takes a shift/tilt adapter, the other doesn't... The lenses of one system are usable with a Leica S, the other not! ...not a competition really, is there? ;) :-X
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It's funny how the game has been completely reversed btwn Hassy and P1 in one year.
Who would have thought that Hassy would be praised for its openess? ;)
Cheers,
Bernard
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The difference I see "before" is that it seems one company had the best MFDBs and was looking for a (better) camera body; the other had a camera body and needed a (better) MFDB; One also arguable buoyed by a better software workflow solution with C1 Pro.
Now I see a a company with a better MFDB, a better camera body (the platform it needed), and supported by the best software workflow solution. Of course, that's just imo. I've had the IQ180 for several years now, and for the XF camera to support all IQ series backs going forward is fine by me considering the upgrades in technology in the platform. And yes, the H5x is an option too. Film? I guess I could have used a film back on the old AFDII, but never ever did. Clients won't put up with the wait. I guess the Cambo can take a film back, but the reality is I'd rather shoot digital. That's why I got the MFDB in the first place! Multishot? Really? How many people are swapping in and out with multishot backs? The MFDB crowd is a relatively small one and I'd gander that the Multishot crowd a much smaller subset yet. Eh, different strokes I guess. Whatever floats your boat---just stick with it and be happy. It's nice to have a few choices, right?
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Any reason not to consider a Pentax ? like others have said, that price itself will pay for a pentax 645z.
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Any reason not to consider a Pentax ? like others have said, that price itself will pay for a pentax 645z.
If it floats your boat, get it! ;D
I'd love to see a 645z IR or Full Spectrum conversion.
ken
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Mike, you have half a dozen threads running in the forum asking about every MF option by now. I know exactly what you're doing because I was on the same boat a while ago. You have set a budget and are trying to see what existing options for into it. This is how I started too, but unfortunately, that is a terrible way to get into MF.
One needs to actually think of MF as a system. That covers not just the body, but also the backs, the post production software, first and third party accessories, future upgrade paths, lens availability and so on. Do a check against your list of requirements and see which system crosses the most boxes . For example, if all you need is to shoot landscapes and are fully comfortable with Lightroom, there is no need to think further, just get the Pentax. If you need to do flash and ambient light work, your best options are phase and mamiya. If you need tilt shift for almost all lenses that you have, hassellblad would be the right choice. And so on.
For me, the priorities were
- good legacy lenses at decent prices
- leaf shutter lenses for strobe work
- back and body separately upgradable
- a good screen at the back for review
- capture one pro compatibility as it was my preferred raw converter
Mamiya leaf checked the most boxes at the least price and that is what I went with. Couldn't be happier.
I suggest you do the same analysis to make your decision, instead of trying to shoehorn options into a budget.
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Mike, you have half a dozen threads running in the forum asking about every MF option by now. I know exactly what you're doing because I was on the same boat a while ago. You have set a budget and are trying to see what existing options for into it. This is how I started too, but unfortunately, that is a terrible way to get into MF.
One needs to actually think of MF as a system. That covers not just the body, but also the backs, the post production software, first and third party accessories, future upgrade paths, lens availability and so on. Do a check against your list of requirements and see which system crosses the most boxes . For example, if all you need is to shoot landscapes and are fully comfortable with Lightroom, there is no need to think further, just get the Pentax. If you need to do flash and ambient light work, your best options are phase and mamiya. If you need tilt shift for almost all lenses that you have, hassellblad would be the right choice. And so on.
For me, the priorities were
- good legacy lenses at decent prices
- leaf shutter lenses for strobe work
- back and body separately upgradable
- a good screen at the back for review
- capture one pro compatibility as it was my preferred raw converter
Mamiya leaf checked the most boxes at the least price and that is what I went with. Couldn't be happier.
I suggest you do the same analysis to make your decision, instead of trying to shoehorn options into a budget.
Εxactly.... In fact, I'm surprised you didn't go with Hasselblad body for your back... It "clicks all boxes" and a few more... ;)
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Εxactly.... In fact, I'm surprised you didn't go with Hasselblad body for your back... It "clicks all boxes" and a few more... ;)
Actually, I was very interested in the Hasselblad bodies because of Trufocus, but when I was doing my research, there was no H4X and I was not interested in getting an old, used H1 or H2. Furthermore, Mamiyaleaf had a pretty good deal going on when I bought my kit where the camera and the lens were basically thrown in for free. Even with the H4X/ H5X, one needs ot buy expensive Hasselbald lenses, where as with the Mamiya, I can get incredibly good legacy AF lenses for three figures. It also does not check the box of being able to use higher shutter speeds in ambient light conditions.
Lastly, the friendly neighborhood Hasselblad dealer was not so friendly afterall while the Mamiya guy was extremely accommodating. This all ties into what I said earlier, the sticker price alone is not a decision maker, there are lots of other factors involved.
I see that "Film" is being brought up as some sort of differentiator in this thread. Well, I have a full Bronica ETRSi kit with three lenses and two viewfinders sitting in the cabinet that together is probably worth less than a Phase or Hassy lens cap these days. That satisfies all the film craving I need, but the fact is that I haven't shot film in close to two years now. There simply isn't any reason anymore other than nostalgia. Films are getting discontinued left and right, labs are closing down or limiting what they can process (The ones I used to go to don't do E-6 anymore)and so on.
As for the XF, you could add an AFD III or something to your kit for very little money and use most of your lenses on it, so I don't really see how a phase owner would be locked out of film completely.
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It's just a box of electronics owned by venture capitalists with the goal to move you to the next higher priced back.
No, Private Equity.
If you ever come up against them, you'll know the difference.
M
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Thanks for the info! With my budget I could get a 645D and get a number of lenses including the 90 mm macro with image stabilization but I like the tilt shift module from Hassy too. I already have a PhaseOne 645AF but no digital back so it would be expensive to fill out my kit. I should mention that the film capability of the Hassy H5X is interesting because I have a Tango drum scanner but I have been thinking of selling it. Decisions!
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Maybe this ?
https://www.facebook.com/denislim.ta?fref=photo
Hassy H5D with 40 back for $16800 SGD, that's $12k USD.
there is also a P65+ with 645DF+ camera for the same price.
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Is the Cambo Actus with Sony camera body a viable alternative? I am worried about the small size of the control knobs making it hard to kind of slow and fussy in the field?
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What do you shoot ? or plan to shoot so we can advice you better.
I've used my digital back on an Acra Swiss 69 with a wide angle lens such as the 35mm. It is almost impossible to focus, I think the total focussing distance is like 1-2mmm. You need very precise knobs to achieve good focus.
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I do strictly landscapes
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I do strictly landscapes
If I was doing the same, I would go for A7ii & Actus combination, if you insist on using an MFDB, I would go for Fuji GX-680 with Hasselblad V fit back and a Kapture group stitching adapter, if I was prepared to spend more, then Hasselblad H5X with HTS 1.5x would be my choice...
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It's funny how the game has been completely reversed btwn Hassy and P1 in one year.
Who would have thought that Hassy would be praised for its openess? ;)
Cheers,
Bernard
In my eyes, but that is not the most funny part: The point is all the guys that were talking about openness and recommended the super broken old cameras, now that is P1, suddenly don't care.
This remember me of sports team (is penalty depending of the team you are in) or politics, nationalism . We went to the moon, but humanity still has a lot of the tribe on us.
Best regards
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I don't see a "tough choice" Mike... one camera works with all market backs, the other with P1 IQ only... One of the cameras can be used with film... the other can't, one camera can do multishot with some backs, the other doesn't... With one of them you can keep your back, with the other not!
The point is :One has a company that has a track record of believing in the system and the other we don't know. Hasselblad seems to be on the "milking until death" mode. To serious investment, no risk. We can't say that of phase one.
Some examples:
1. No usb3, they introduced the H5D with a new more solidly connected firewire cable. So minimal investment.
2. Years and years and since true focus they have not introduced a new compelling feature to the camera. They wait until P1 match them and in many cases surpass them. They were busy building stellars.
3. Since the introduction of the H1 series they have no redesigned the shutter on the H series cameras. For this time the shutter should be electronic and above 1/800.
The system is still good, and it's the one I will choose (I rater rent) but the choice is not easy. Don't get me wrong, your points are all solid but the company commitment is in question.
Have you notice any activity from Hasselblad people here lately or in GetDPI ?
Finally we have the negotiation power: The try to get an especial relation with Sony and they got nothing. They try to get access to the 80mpixels Dalsa sensor and they never got it.
I could continue. Is sad because of your points.
Best regards,
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The point is :One has a company that has a track record of believing in the system and the other we don't know. Hasselblad seems to be on the "milking until death" mode. To serious investment, no risk. We can't say that of phase one.
Some examples:
1. No usb3, they introduced the H5D with a new more solidly connected firewire cable. So minimal investment.
2. Years and years and since true focus they have not introduced a new compelling feature to the camera. They wait until P1 match them and in many cases surpass them. They were busy building stellars.
3. Since the introduction of the H1 series they have no redesigned the shutter on the H series cameras. For this time the shutter should be electronic and above 1/800.
The system is still good, and it's the one I will choose (I rater rent) but the choice is not easy. Don't get me wrong, your points are all solid but the company commitment is in question.
Have you notice any activity from Hasselblad people here lately or in GetDPI ?
Finally we have the negotiation power: The try to get an especial relation with Sony and they got nothing. They try to get access to the 80mpixels Dalsa sensor and they never got it.
I could continue. Is sad because of your points.
Best regards,
I believe that's not fare for Hasselblad... They did all the wrong things about a decade ago and there was a big (financial) penalty for their decisions... and now that it's the other way around (they started correcting some of the bad and P1 started doing all the wrong things in return), some people recall Hasselblad's past and don't mention P1's continuous recent mistakes... I guess it's their turn to be penalized by the market...
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The problem with everyone except Leica is that their body engineering and optics simply do not match their price. Phase, to their credit have tried, but they are now really expensive, Hassy have long had a good product but it could do with some updates, they underinvested in the system, and Pentax doesn't have a decent lens range yet, although their body is modern and prices in Europe are now really drifting down. Pentax is definitely a "value proposition". Leica have really nice engineering, fully up to date, and wonderful lenses - at prices that are miraculously reasonable - by their standards.
Edmund
I believe that's not fare for Hasselblad... They did all the wrong things about a decade ago and there was a big (financial) penalty for their decisions... and now that it's the other way around (they started correcting some of the bad and P1 started doing all the wrong things in return), some people recall Hasselblad's past and don't mention P1's continuous recent mistakes... I guess it's their turn to be penalized by the market...
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Leica 70mm CS: USD 6250
https://www.digitalback.com/product/leica-summarit-s-70mm-f2-5-asph-cs/
schneider 80mm LS: USD 2990
https://www.digitalback.com/product/schneider-kreuznach-80-mm-ls-f2-8-af-2/
Leica 120mm TS: USD 7550
https://www.digitalback.com/product/leica-ts-apo-elmar-s-120mm-f5-6-asph/
Schneider 120mm TS: USD 5690 ( basically the same lens)
https://www.digitalback.com/product/schneider-kreuznach-120-mm-mf-ts-f5-6-2/
Leica 24mm focal plane shutter: USD 9250
https://www.digitalback.com/product/leica-super-elmar-s-24mm-f3-5-asph/
Schneider 28mm LS: USD 5990
https://www.digitalback.com/product/schneider-kreuznach-28-mm-ls-f4-5-af-3/
Leica 30mm CS: USD 8750
https://www.digitalback.com/product/leica-elmarit-s-30mm-f2-8-asph-cs/
Schneider 35mm LS (all new design): USD 6490
https://www.digitalback.com/product/schneider-kreuznach-35mm-ls-f3-5/
Leica S lens caps: USD 70-90
https://www.digitalback.com/product/leica-s-front-lens-caps/
Mamiya lens caps: USD 16-48
https://www.digitalback.com/product/mamiya-front-lens-caps/
And for every contax lens that can be used on the Leica with an expensive adapter, there are legacy mamiya lenses that can be used straightaway.
You must be talking about some Chinese Leica when you mention all those non existent reasonably priced lenses.
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You must be talking about some Chinese Leica when you mention all those non existent reasonably priced lenses.
Synn,
Thanks the links - made me do a quick check.
Bottom line is a Leica S (body only equivalent) - type006 CCD is approx $6,500 NEW, full Leica cover
Leica S (006) with Leica Summarit-S 70mm f2.5 ASPH approx ($10,300)
PhaseOne XF with IQ140 and SK 80, $20,000+ (price is € only and varies based on daily € fluctuations)
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Leica S-E (Typ 006) Body + Summarit 70mm f2.5
£ 7,999.00 - VAT excl: £ 6,665.8 ($10,330)
Leica S (Typ 007) Body Only
£ 12,900.00 - VAT excl: £ 10,750.00 ($16,666)
Maestro II Processor
Cine 4k Video
Live View and Tethering
Focus Peaking
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Leica Summarit-S 70mm f2.5 ASPH
£ 3,150.00 - VAT excl: £ 2,625.00 ($4,070)
Leica Summarit-S 70mm f2.5 ASPH. CS
£ 4,365.00 - VAT excl: £ 3,637.50 ($5,640)
Leica Summicron-S 100mm f2 ASPH
£ 5,200.00 - VAT excl: £ 4,333.33 ($6,700)
Leica Apo-Macro-Summarit-S 120mm f2.5
£ 4,970.00 - VAT excl: £ 4,141.67 ($6,400)
http://www.reddotcameras.co.uk/s-bodies/7624-leica-s-e-typ-006.html
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Only 2 drawbacks,
* back and body not separately upgradeable,
* not natively captureone compatible ( but most pros seem to have got over that one ... )
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Edit:
and you need to like a soupçon of grey on black ...
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Is the Cambo Actus with Sony camera body a viable alternative? I am worried about the small size of the control knobs making it hard to kind of slow and fussy in the field?
The Cambo Actus with DB is an option and all of the lenses you are interested will be available in Copal 0 mount at considerable savings. Just check prices at B&H large format lenses.
Victor
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I think the Phase One guys must be tearing out their hair after the Leica price got lowered and Leica bought Sinar. Leica seems to be turning themselves into a real camera company again. And then of course the "SK" Phase lenses seem mostly a rebadge operation, while the Leica lenses are the real thing.
Edmund
Synn,
Thanks the links - made me do a quick check.
Bottom line is a Leica S (body only equivalent) - type006 CCD is approx $6,500 NEW, full Leica cover
Leica S (006) with Leica Summarit-S 70mm f2.5 ASPH approx ($10,300)
PhaseOne XF with IQ140 and SK 80, $20,000+ (price is € only and varies based on daily € fluctuations)
--
Leica S-E (Typ 006) Body + Summarit 70mm f2.5
£ 7,999.00 - VAT excl: £ 6,665.8 ($10,330)
Leica S (Typ 007) Body Only
£ 12,900.00 - VAT excl: £ 10,750.00 ($16,666)
Maestro II Processor
Cine 4k Video
Live View and Tethering
Focus Peaking
--
Leica Summarit-S 70mm f2.5 ASPH
£ 3,150.00 - VAT excl: £ 2,625.00 ($4,070)
Leica Summarit-S 70mm f2.5 ASPH. CS
£ 4,365.00 - VAT excl: £ 3,637.50 ($5,640)
Leica Summicron-S 100mm f2 ASPH
£ 5,200.00 - VAT excl: £ 4,333.33 ($6,700)
Leica Apo-Macro-Summarit-S 120mm f2.5
£ 4,970.00 - VAT excl: £ 4,141.67 ($6,400)
http://www.reddotcameras.co.uk/s-bodies/7624-leica-s-e-typ-006.html
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Only 2 drawbacks,
* back and body not separately upgradeable,
* not natively captureone compatible ( but most pros seem to have got over that one ... )
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Edit:
and you need to like a soupçon of grey on black ...
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The real pain, will be by the time that Sinar will re-introduce a self contained back based on the the very same sensor as S007... Then, a big part of the market will have the opportunity to choose a number of very good MF platforms (C645, H2F, H4X, H5X) at S/H or new prices and have their lenses fully compatible with S-007 (and future 008 , 009 etc) and even share the same lenses on a new compact design Sinar, that will challenge the Actus and the Universallis...
Imagine this... a photographer that does everything (movements, low light DSLR shooting, multishot stills, Cinema... whatever...) with only 3-4 (top quality) lenses that are compatible with all aspects of photography... It's not only the photographer's "dream" as far as practicality and manouvrability is concerned... It most probably going to cost him (or her) a third of the cost than if one invests on a P1 system and also needs a different system (with different lenses) to use his back with a view camera and then needs a DSLR (with more different lenses) to match the Leica S flexibility...