Luminous Landscape Forum

The Art of Photography => User Critiques => Topic started by: Jeremy Roussak on September 08, 2015, 02:55:42 pm

Title: storm clouds
Post by: Jeremy Roussak on September 08, 2015, 02:55:42 pm

Comments?

Jeremy

Title: Re: storm clouds
Post by: Antonio Correia on September 08, 2015, 03:26:34 pm

I do not understand why images here are always so small...

Jeremy, isn't your photograph lacking a bit of contrast ?
May I suggest more contrast and a tad - just a tad - vignetting.
If you use LR try Clarity. It returns great results enhancing detail and contrasting.

Title: Re: storm clouds
Post by: Eric Myrvaagnes on September 08, 2015, 05:03:53 pm

This has great potential, Jeremy.
I think Antonio's suggestions might make it even more dramatic.

Somehow I don't think this is your typical English countryside.   ;)

Eric

Title: Re: storm clouds
Post by: Jeremy Roussak on September 09, 2015, 03:53:40 am

Quote from: Antonio Correia on September 08, 2015, 03:26:34 pm

I do not understand why images here are always so small...

Antonio, there are two ways of posting photos here. One (which you use in your lovely bakery series) is to use img tags to link to images on an external site. The other, which I use, is to upload images to this site; they then appear as thumbnails, which enlarge if you click on them.

Quote from: Antonio Correia on September 08, 2015, 03:26:34 pm

Jeremy, isn't your photograph lacking a bit of contrast ?
May I suggest more contrast and a tad - just a tad - vignetting.
If you use LR try Clarity. It returns great results enhancing detail and contrasting.

I'll look into increasing the contrast; it already has a fair bit of Clarity and some vignetting added. Not enough, perhaps.

Eric, you're astonishingly perceptive!

Jeremy

Title: Re: storm clouds
Post by: stamper on September 09, 2015, 04:01:26 am

I am a fan of contrasty images and usually suggest adding some contrast when I critique an image. However I don't see how Jeremy could add any more without spoiling the image. As to vignetting it usually only works with a central focal point. The dark areas at the bottom would become even darker which would spoil the image. This is a fine, well processed image, that imo doesn't need anything more added to it.

Title: Re: storm clouds
Post by: Antonio Correia on September 09, 2015, 07:11:08 am

I do not know if it is possible but I would like to work on the original raw file and post it here in black and white.

Jeremy, if you agree I will be happy to recreate the black and white image and post it here.

I think you can send me the raw file in private, can't you ?

I will show you my final result :)

Thank you. :)

Title: Re: storm clouds
Post by: francois on September 09, 2015, 07:31:19 am

I love the dramatic sky… fantastic, really. I must say that I like this photo as it is but adding contrast on the buttes wouldn't hurt.

Well done.

Title: Re: storm clouds
Post by: Bob_B on September 09, 2015, 09:38:51 am

Quote from: stamper on September 09, 2015, 04:01:26 am

...This is a fine, well processed image, that imo doesn't need anything more added to it...

+1. I like it as is: powerful yet not over-the-top.

Title: Re: storm clouds
Post by: Eric Myrvaagnes on September 09, 2015, 12:08:57 pm

Quote from: Antonio Correia on September 09, 2015, 07:11:08 am

I do not know if it is possible but I would like to work on the original raw file and post it here in black and white.

Jeremy, if you agree I will be happy to recreate the black and white image and post it here.

I think you can send me the raw file in private, can't you ?

I will show you my final result :)

Thank you. :)

Jeremy,

I suggest you take Antonio up on his offer, but make him promise to tell you exactly the steps he takes in processing. I expect the result will be excellent and we could all learn from his notes.

-Eric

Title: Re: storm clouds
Post by: Jeremy Roussak on September 09, 2015, 04:21:46 pm

Quote from: Eric Myrvaagnes on September 09, 2015, 12:08:57 pm

Jeremy,

I suggest you take Antonio up on his offer, but make him promise to tell you exactly the steps he takes in processing. I expect the result will be excellent and we could all learn from his notes.

Absolutely. I've sent him a PM with the link and asked him to detail the steps he takes. I'm looking forward to seeing the result.

Jeremy

Title: Re: storm clouds
Post by: Antonio Correia on September 09, 2015, 05:22:29 pm

Got it. Please wait for tomorrow  :)

Title: Re: storm clouds
Post by: RSL on September 09, 2015, 06:12:54 pm

Antonio's B&W photographs on his web are excellent. One reason -- I'm tempted to say the main reason -- is that he's careful to have the light right when he makes the shot. This comes across in his portraits especially. As far as post-processing is concerned, it would be awfully hard to beat the tweaks you can do with Silver Efex Pro.

I think you did what was possible, Jeremy, and it's quite good. I pulled the picture down and checked it in Photoshop with curves. It's possible to pull the lows down a tad and pull the highs up a tad, but I'm looking at a .jpeg, so the original raw file may permit even more improvement. You could grab the mid-tones and separate them, but if you do much of that you're going to kill the thing. I know there are photographers who, instead of grayscale seem to want black and white. Stamper tends to take his grayscale almost to that point and it's what he wants, though I don't necessarily agree it's the best result.

I'm as eager as you are to see what Antonio can do to improve on Silver Efex. His work certainly shows he knows what he's doing.

Title: Re: storm clouds
Post by: Antonio Correia on September 09, 2015, 06:20:15 pm

Guys... thank you for challenging me for this job !  ::)
This is what I have for you at this very moment. I do not have practice with videos. However, I am preparing one for you.
This has been done in LR and Nik software.
Hope you like it. Perhaps some more improvements could be done. I have made the photograph as one of my owns.

I hope to be able to make or try to make, the same thing just using LR. Later.
Ah ! Another aspect I consider specially important: presentation ! As this forum has white background, I have made a thin black canvas to enhance the image.

(http://www.antoniocorreia.com/photos/i-R7cQdWM/0/X3/i-R7cQdWM-X3.jpg)

Title: Re: storm clouds
Post by: Rajan Parrikar on September 10, 2015, 01:41:40 am

Jeremy's original treatment is beautiful.

Title: Re: storm clouds
Post by: stamper on September 10, 2015, 03:36:49 am

Antonio's version is "different" but not "better" imo. We seem to forget that Jeremy had a "vision" for his image that he posted and asked if anyone liked it. In other threads I have read members stating that what another member did with regards to processing was "wrong". Unless there were glaring technical deficiencies then there isn't a "right" way and a "wrong" way, only a "different" way. As Russ points out I like to have in my B&W images a good black point and a good white point, most of the time. I have been taken to task for having a liking for contrasty images which I will continue to do with no apology.  :)

Title: Re: storm clouds
Post by: Antonio Correia on September 10, 2015, 06:28:40 am

Quote from: stamper on September 10, 2015, 03:36:49 am

Antonio's version is "different" but not "better" imo. We seem to forget that Jeremy had a "vision" for his image that he posted and asked if anyone liked it. In other threads I have read members stating that what another member did with regards to processing was "wrong". Unless there were glaring technical deficiencies then there isn't a "right" way and a "wrong" way, only a "different" way. As Russ points out I like to have in my B&W images a good black point and a good white point, most of the time. I have been taken to task for having a liking for contrasty images which I will continue to do with no apology.  :)

Peter good morning.
I quite agree with you. I just showed my version of the photograph.
I have suggested to Jeremy and he agreed that I could show my version.

Quote from: Antonio Correia on September 09, 2015, 07:11:08 am

I do not know if it is possible but I would like to work on the original raw file and post it here in black and white.
Jeremy, if you agree I will be happy to recreate the black and white image and post it here...

I have done a video with all the steps but it is not yet uploaded what I will do as soon as I end this post.

I think - I may be wrong - that to see different versions from different persons of a photograph can be rewarding because it gives us different views and perspectives to our future work.
I have myself learned a lot looking at other's work and - specially - looking at magazines. But not those with lots of commercial publicity but to those which innovate and create new visions.

Thank you for your attention ! :)
-

Quote from: Rajan Parrikar on September 10, 2015, 01:41:40 am

Jeremy's original treatment is beautiful.

Thank you Rajan ! I think it is also a good treatment but I like best mine !!  ;D :D

Title: Re: storm clouds
Post by: Antonio Correia on September 10, 2015, 07:19:11 am

Is this any good ?

https://youtu.be/bmhWqhmVi_A

Title: Re: storm clouds
Post by: brandtb on September 10, 2015, 07:49:01 am

AC there are a number of nice things about your version...although the very dark diagonal band/center vertical band of clouds starting from upper right are so intense/harsh to the point that they distract from the center "monuments" and start to become a story in and of themselves.

Title: Re: storm clouds
Post by: Antonio Correia on September 10, 2015, 08:59:52 am

Quote from: brandtb on September 10, 2015, 07:49:01 am

AC there are a number of nice things about your version...although the very dark diagonal band/center vertical band of clouds starting from upper right are so intense/harsh to the point that they distract from the center "monuments" and start to become a story in and of themselves.

Yes Brandt, but the image is about a storm is it not ?  :)

Title: Re: storm clouds
Post by: RSL on September 10, 2015, 11:15:13 am

Quote from: stamper on September 10, 2015, 03:36:49 am

Antonio's version is "different" but not "better" imo. We seem to forget that Jeremy had a "vision" for his image that he posted and asked if anyone liked it. In other threads I have read members stating that what another member did with regards to processing was "wrong". Unless there were glaring technical deficiencies then there isn't a "right" way and a "wrong" way, only a "different" way. As Russ points out I like to have in my B&W images a good black point and a good white point, most of the time. I have been taken to task for having a liking for contrasty images which I will continue to do with no apology.  :)

I agree with everything you said, Robert. You're perfectly entitled to present your excellent photographs any way you want to, and I hope you're not including me in the group of those taking you to task. In my own stuff I also want a solid black point and a solid white point. It's the mid-tones where we disagree, but I sometimes disagree with the masters, even with HCB.

I think the difference in presentation of Jeremy's fine photograph is that in Antonio's version the storm is upon us and it's affecting the light on the mesas. In Jeremy's version, the storm is only threatening. Jeremy's version is subtle. Antonio's version clobbers you. I like Jeremy's version better, but it's a personal choice.

Title: Re: storm clouds
Post by: Antonio Correia on September 10, 2015, 11:47:54 am

Well guys here we have a fruitful discussion !  :)

Title: Re: storm clouds
Post by: Patricia Sheley on September 10, 2015, 04:17:21 pm

Welcome to L’ Atelier Luminous Landscape…
I tried; I really did try, and even went for the duct tape in an effort to not inject what seems always to become my inflated “$.02”.
In earlier remarks, Michael R. mentioned an upcoming Salon…wonderful opportunity for any able to spend time there…much as I so appreciate off hours at galleries among surprisingly diverse levels of appreciation, knowledge base, connectedness or not, but always the visions and details of the reason for being drawn to exploration valuable launch platforms to deeper understanding.
The “Storm Clouds” here offered up by Jeremy has been just such an exploration. One of the best experiences of my time at Pratt, although I did not fully appreciate it then, was the opportunity for great Art History instruction, not so much for the learning by rote, but for the building of understanding of how artists were “taught” across cultures and time, as in the Atelier where the master would oversee the developing skills and sensitivities of the “students” as they came to recognize particular idiosyncrasies of edge character, value, color, shapes and their overlapping, or positioning of their depth in the field at hand, the modelling and sculpting by light and luminescence, as when we were sent to observe how that light was defined through layers of glaze in subtle paint application. That sculpting is one of the initial reasons I came to love the darkroom. Through one negative I could try and retry and fail often and search new understanding in the sculpting of the envisioned space and the failure often to succeed but always the exercise rewarded by deeper vision at the time of capture, or in museums seeking the reason for resonance of particular works.
This one raw file of Jeremy’s has brought all of that early joy to the fore in the way diverse envisioners have responded.
First though it is the uneven playing field I finally recognized as the interrupter of sorting the two different edits, as both versions in their own way had removed the room from the anatomies, first the Jeremy version with the crop from the foreground but more dynamically blocking, the severe crop off the left field of the image in the second.
I finally saw these two blocks when viewing the images side by side and the content within each as three torsos on their curve of earth and how the artist would seek to offer the sculpting of them in their realities using the subtle fingering and glazes of the wildly diverging light and luminescence presented by the weathers of that moment across those torsos.   
Once viewed in that light the original (raw) file became for me an Atelier and one I would welcome time spending time participating in. Please accept the above in the spirit of my pleasure in the discovery and in hopes that the beauty of latent possibility jumps out to others. Thank you Jeremy,  and thank you Antonio

Title: Re: storm clouds
Post by: Rob C on September 10, 2015, 04:27:59 pm

Quote from: Antonio Correia on September 10, 2015, 11:47:54 am

Well guys here we have a fruitful discussion !  :)

Yup, and exactly why I started Without Prejudice. Anybody, even I, can second-guess.

I also use the black line; my entire website has it on every single image bar the cover.

Nuttin' new under el sol. Ever.

Jeremy - it'll always be your shot. Period.

;-)

Rob C

Title: Re: storm clouds
Post by: stamper on September 11, 2015, 03:04:10 am

Quote from: RSL on September 10, 2015, 11:15:13 am

I agree with everything you said, Robert. You're perfectly entitled to present your excellent photographs any way you want to, and I hope you're not including me in the group of those taking you to task. In my own stuff I also want a solid black point and a solid white point. It's the mid-tones where we disagree, but I sometimes disagree with the masters, even with HCB.

I think the difference in presentation of Jeremy's fine photograph is that in Antonio's version the storm is upon us and it's affecting the light on the mesas. In Jeremy's version, the storm is only threatening. Jeremy's version is subtle. Antonio's version clobbers you. I like Jeremy's version better, but it's a personal choice.

Russ you flatter me with the word excellent! I wasn't thinking about you when I stated...taking to task. Maybe the difference in the mid tones is down to the monitors being different? :)

Title: Re: storm clouds
Post by: Jeremy Roussak on September 11, 2015, 04:27:10 am

This has proved to be one of the more interesting discussions which have followed my posts here. I'm very happy that I offered Antonio the raw file and I find his treatment of it fascinating. Pat, your comments are touching and I'm humbled to have been the unwitting source for your emotions.

Overall, I prefer my own processing. That's not to say that it's better, or even that since I took the shot I should have the last word. I think perhaps Russ places his finger on the different effects. However, I do like the clarity Antonio has added to the cliffs, if not his crop.

When I have some time, I'm going to examine Antonio's method and perhaps apply some of his ideas. Of course, if anyone else wants to play with the raw file...

Jeremy

Title: Re: storm clouds
Post by: Antonio Correia on September 11, 2015, 05:42:14 am

I like all this ! I like all this !   :) :) :)

Title: Re: storm clouds
Post by: Eric Myrvaagnes on September 11, 2015, 10:21:22 am

This has been a terrific discussion. Thanks, Jeremy for getting it started.

Trying to choose between Jeremy's version and Antonio's, I find it difficult. I think my preference would depend on my own mood on a particular day. I might prefer Jeremy's on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays, but Antonio's on Tuesdays, Thursdays, and Saturdays.

On Sundays I might avoid looking at either to clear my mind for the next week.  

-Eric

Title: Re: storm clouds
Post by: Antonio Correia on September 11, 2015, 10:29:25 am

Quote from: Eric Myrvaagnes on September 11, 2015, 10:21:22 am

... I might prefer Jeremy's on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays, but Antonio's on Tuesdays, Thursdays, and Saturdays.
On Sundays I might avoid looking at either to clear my mind for the next week. -Eric

 ;D ;D

Title: Re: storm clouds
Post by: MattBurt on September 11, 2015, 12:33:43 pm

I like both versions but tend to prefer the original edit as well. Antonio's edit is just a little too over the top for me.
Good shot regardless of the editing. I love that part of the country!

Title: Re: storm clouds
Post by: RSL on September 11, 2015, 01:29:42 pm

Quote from: Eric Myrvaagnes on September 11, 2015, 10:21:22 am

This has been a terrific discussion. Thanks, Jeremy for getting it started.

Trying to choose between Jeremy's version and Antonio's, I find it difficult. I think my preference would depend on my own mood on a particular day. I might prefer Jeremy's on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays, but Antonio's on Tuesdays, Thursdays, and Saturdays.

On Sundays I might avoid looking at either to clear my mind for the next week.  

-Eric

Which office are you running for, Eric? Are you about to announce for president?

Title: Re: storm clouds
Post by: Eric Myrvaagnes on September 11, 2015, 05:09:43 pm

Quote from: RSL on September 11, 2015, 01:29:42 pm

Which office are you running for, Eric? Are you about to announce for president?

I haven't yet decided, Russ. But if I decide, you can be absolutely certain that I will never, ever waffle!
Except now and then...

Title: Re: storm clouds
Post by: Rob C on September 12, 2015, 04:03:25 am

Quote from: Eric Myrvaagnes on September 11, 2015, 05:09:43 pm

I haven't yet decided, Russ. But if I decide, you can be absolutely certain that I will never, ever waffle!
Except now and then...

Eric, don't run. If you won't waffle, how can you honourably fulfil your post's requirements?

Rob C

Title: Re: storm clouds
Post by: Mjollnir on September 12, 2015, 05:01:02 pm

I think what would really tie the whole thing together would be a lighthouse in there somewhere.

Title: Re: storm clouds
Post by: Jeremy Roussak on September 12, 2015, 06:26:48 pm

Quote from: Mjollnir on September 12, 2015, 05:01:02 pm

I think what would really tie the whole thing together would be a lighthouse in there somewhere.

Perhaps; most scenes are improved by a lighthouse, as we've discussed here before.

But since it's a good 700 miles from the nearest coast, I'm not holding my breath waiting for one to be built. Not much passing shipping, you see.  ;)

Jeremy

Title: Re: storm clouds
Post by: BobDavid on September 13, 2015, 01:15:49 am

I think Antonio's interpretation is striking. Well done.