Luminous Landscape Forum
Site & Board Matters => About This Site => Topic started by: Manoli on August 18, 2015, 06:25:25 pm
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Thank you both for the review.
Two questions,
(1) are these OOC jpegs or are they raws processed to jpegs in C1 ?
(2) The ' Indy Art Museum ' file is named as ' RX-100-iv-Batis-25mm-dl'. Incorrectly named or do you have a comparison shot of the RX100 v the Batis 25 ?
Edit:
OK, I see from Lightroom metadata that these are processed in Capture One 8.
What sharpening / clarity settings did you use ?
Thanks.
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Another question about the images: the two train shots made with the 90mm and 85mm lenses are intended as comparisons, I believe. But according to the labels and metadata, one of them is shot at f8, the other at f11, which would cause some diffraction. Based just on comparing these two slightly different files, the 90mm macro is significantly sharper. But I wonder....
--d
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All the images were shot as RAWs. All images were processed using Capture One. Except for the one image in the article where perspective corrections were applied no adjustments were made to the file. No clarity was added. Sharpening was Capture One default, sharpening wasn't adjusted. This is the first time we have tried attaching files for downloading. I apologize for the file naming issue. This was caused when the images were processed and a previous job name was in the file name field. I thought the files would be renamed when inserted into the HTML editor. Live and learn. As most of you will see after looking at the files provided the Sony 90mm lens is quite the performer. I have been using the 90mm lens for a while now and it continually amazes me. Images with the a7r II are spectacular with it.
Anyway, I hope the file downloads are a benefit to our readers. It allows you to do your own comparisons.
Kevin Raber
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All the images were shot as RAWs. All images were processed using Capture One. Except for the one image in the article where perspective corrections were applied no adjustments were made to the file. No clarity was added. Sharpening was Capture One default, sharpening wasn't adjusted. This is the first time we have tried attaching files for downloading. I apologize for the file naming issue. This was caused when the images were processed and a previous job name was in the file name field. I thought the files would be renamed when inserted into the HTML editor. Live and learn. As most of you will see after looking at the files provided the Sony 90mm lens is quite the performer. I have been using the 90mm lens for a while now and it continually amazes me. Images with the a7r II are spectacular with it.
Anyway, I hope the file downloads are a benefit to our readers. It allows you to do your own comparisons.
Kevin Raber
I certainly appreciate the file downloads. The Batis 25mm appears excellent against the Sony Zooms. But I am surprised by how very soft the Batis 85mm seemed in general and especially compared to the amzingly good Sony 90mm. I couldn't help wondering if there was the possibility of some mix up or error in focus with the Batis 85mm, from the gravel it appears the focus might have been in front of the trucks not on them. I suppose that is the downside of providing file downloads, your enthusiastic fan base starts second guessing the results LOL.
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We wondered the same thing, but Michael is pretty meticulous and he was real careful. You can see in the train yard shot the same thing with the 85mm and the 90mm and the 90mm is rated by DXO as one of the 5 sharpest lens. Bottom line the 90mm is an outstanding lens. The 25mm Batis is too. You'll see more about the 90mm in the a7r II review coming soon.
Kevin Raber
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Kevin,
Not wishing to cause offence, but I think you may need to 'review' the Batis 85mm comparison portrait shots. Something is amiss.
The focus is off in all the shots. If you were using AF ( which I assume you were) the eyes, forehead and in general the left-hand side of the shot all appear to be out-of-focus. The forehead and eyes are particularly noticeable, not just for lack of focus, but a lack of detail and skin texture too.
I suspect the AF may be the culprit, because looking closely (pixel-peep) at the head you'll notice that the hair on the right-hand-side, as you look at the photo, is sharply IN FOCUS with the strands of hair sharply defined – so my gut tells me that it's an adjustment issue as the plane of critical focus lies behind the eyes and forehead in each shot. Although it would have been safer to have a few shots at a higher shutter speed than 1/100 and the f22 shot at 1/8 and ISO 3200, nevertheless the difference when compared with the Chris Sanderson shot on the A7rII with the Batis 25 plus a 2 stop push (12800) is remarkable (and, no, I don't believe it's only due to the difference in resolution between the cams).
I've looked at skin detail and texture on fuji x-trans , shot with a couple of Leica-M 75's and a 50 - there is simply no comparison, the Batis is not even close. IIRC, Michael has a Leica 90mm asph 'cron so it should be relatively easy to do a quick cross check.
M
Anyway, I hope the file downloads are a benefit to our readers. It allows you to do your own comparisons.
Thanks again for posting these test shots (it's a +10 from me)
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I apologize for the file naming issue. This was caused when the images were processed and a previous job name was in the file name field.
No need to apologise! The idea would have been an excellent one - a direct comparison of the RX100 (IV) v a Batis A7II at 24mm - any chance of a 2-layered tiff ?
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A thumbs up from me as well in relation to having some files to download and view and the process worked OK
Presumably the colour checker appearing in some of the truck shots was for a more scientific approach to the testing ?
My question is perhaps more to do with the camera than the lenses
The image of Chris Sanderson sitting in the cafe was taken with a high ISO 12,800 and appears to be very good in terms of " noise " ( lack of ) so is the camera really that good or did C1's automatic noise reduction help out a little ?
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As far as the portrait examples. First they were shot at 3200 ISO using the a7 II. I looked at the focus or the sharpness on the tape measure. Could you read the numbers? I intend to do a new test with the a7r II in the next week with the same guy. He's a cooperative model. I am just as curious as you are and I will run it with the 90mm also. The color checker was there because we could use it if we wanted to make sure we a consistent white balance. It wasn't needed. It also had small words and a scale on it which can be used when looking at each image.
In the future now that I know how things work the files names will be labeled in a new way. Already have an idea how to do that. Also, now that we know this is a value to our readers we will do more downloads on future reviews. I do believe many of the other images in the article can give you a good perspective on lens performance. Also in the future we will make sure we indicate to our readers where the AF point was for the focus.
This could be fun.
Kevin Raber
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I looked at the focus or the sharpness on the tape measure. Could you read the numbers?
Yes, I can - but flicking through the sequence from f1.8 to f11 the sharpness of the tape measure increases with each increase of f-stop which tell me that that's within the dof of the lens/aperture combination - not critical focus. I still think that plane of focus is behind the forehead/top of his head - that's the area that maintains sharpness throughout the aperture series.
As for the other test shots, I've attached a Lr screen shot at 1:1 of a section of your truck shots, 90 macro v the 85 Batis - that difference in resolution is to me quite baffling.
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We said the same thing when we saw the results. We have sent the Batis lenses back to Zeiss as they were review samples. I'll be ordering both over the coming week or two. When I get these lenses I'll do another test and an update article, as kind of a follow up. But in our shooting and we did other comparisons with different scenes and the 90mm just shines through. My next tests I'll use a model and do some close up head shots so I can compare background blur and bokeh of the 85mm and 90mm. As I mentioned though, if I didn't have the 90mm already the 85mm would have been purchased right away. I'll get the 25mm first as I really liked that lens. And, it fits in well with my plan to have a nice set of rounded out primes.
Appreciate the feedback.
Kevin Raber
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The focus is off in all the shots. If you were using AF ( which I assume you were) the eyes, forehead and in general the left-hand side of the shot all appear to be out-of-focus. The forehead and eyes are particularly noticeable, not just for lack of focus, but a lack of detail and skin texture too.
There is no doubt in my mind that the focus point is behind the face. Probably just in front of the ears.
Victor
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The image of the cars with the Batis 85mm (DSC1020.jpg) shows the focus point to be about a foot and a half in front of the trucks. Just take a look at the foreground and the focus line is very narrow and visible.
Victor
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I couldn't find the Zeiss Batis 25mm anywhere in stock here in the US. So I researched and determined that the Sony Zeiss 24mm 2.0 A mount lens is a good alternative. Using it with the LA EA3 adapter on the A7rII gives plenty of focus points...it focuses closely and has excellent IQ.. Have you tried it as an alternative to the Batis? For those of us who can't find the Batis anywhere for sale, this lens is basically the same price point and really quite nice.
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There is definitely something amiss with the Batis 85mm tests.
The truck images using that lens are front focused, as has been pointed out. This is clearly visible.
But the train image is also soft. Some of this may be diffraction from the f11 setting. I'm not sure why that aperture was chosen.
Other possibilities: could it be that stabilization was turned off using the control switch on the 90mm lens, but stayed enabled (in the camera, by default) when the 85mm was mounted? Or perhaps there is a problem with this copy of the lens.
To see the kind of sharpness the 85 Batis is capable of, I suggest looking at the downloadable RAW files at http://www.photographyblog.com/previews/sony_a7r_ii_zeiss_batis_85mm_photos.
--d
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What we need is for more folks—me, for instance—to get their hands on Batis lenses and provide a broader range of sample pics. :D
-Dave- (waiting more or less patiently…)
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I have requested Zeiss to send a new copy of a review lens to me. What you see is what we saw. I'm happy to try again but we were consistent with our method. AF focus point was the same for all tests on the truck and the portrait. If the lens is front or back focusing then it is obviously a lens issue. Could also explain why the portrait images are off too. Tomorrow I'll see if I can find matching f/stop images of the train shot and if I can find new ones I'll post them as an addendum. I'll report back here.
I did report in my review that AF was an issue a couple of times while using the lens. Maybe this all related.
Kevin Raber
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Kevin,
In response to your question, "What's on your list" of future Batis lenses, I pick something from left field: A two or three-position zoom lens 135/200mm f/4, a la the Leica WATE but on the telephoto end.
Am I the only weird one who would jump all over something like that?
Dave
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Hello,
I do see that the lenses perform quite well.
Being a Pentax user [yes, we do still exist, and are not an imagination. We do still buy the cameras and lenses], there is something that disconforts me from Zeiss: Which is the best Zeiss? Or better put: Where does Cosina fit in all this Zeisscape®?
I think that Zeiss is doing this worse than Leica with the Panasonic alliance.
So far, Zeiss branded optics are either Zeiss, Sony-Zeiss, or Cosina-Zeiss. And I am starting to get lost in all this.
Most probably, and usually, the Cosina made lenses, although they are very good, are a different ballpark all together. But still, they are Zeiss branded.
Regarding the lenses, I was about to say "get some 645 lenses" for the money. Although you will loose the electronic pairing.
But I do appreciate the quality of the samples provided.
Edit:
Want list: Retractable shades. Well engineered. A la Pentax DA 70 ltd. They so have to make a comeback!
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Thank you for this detailed comparison. It allowed me to compare (albeit constrained) several lenses of interest to me on a camera that is of extreme interest to everyone.
I was particularly interested in the 16-35 and the 24-70 zooms as these are key lenses for many pros along with the 70-200. Others have reported middling results with the 24-70 and your images bear this out. The 16-35 acquits itself nicely but the 24-70 seems soft at the edges even at f8.
I think that while the goodness of the primes is generally agreed upon, the limits they place on working pros demands a top notch zoom lineup.
I am sure I could sell images perfectly well using the 24-70 but I know I would feel I was leaving quality on the table in comparison to Canon's fine lenses in this category.
At least with the low res 5DmkIII ;) I can dream of the 50MP 5DSR to unleash all the quality Canon engineered.
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Thanks for the interesting collection of images. It was very timely since I, along with many others, are in a transition to Sony mirrorless cameras. The lenses you selected are on my list of possibilities. I am currently using Canon and have a collection of L lenses. I am trying to use my Canon lenses on the Sony A7Rii with the Metabones IV, although I am having some problems with the stability of that system. Comparisons of some of the Sony/Zeiss lenses and Canon lenses with E mount adapters would be very helpful to those of us making this transition. Although Canon is lagging the transition to high dynamic range sensors and mirrorless cameras, the Canon lenses are extensive and already in our inventories. For example, I have the Canon 24-70 L series lens. Based on your test images and data from other sites, I am assuming that it will give better images on the A7Rii than the Sony/Zeiss 24-70. Some test images would be interesting. Perhaps some of the participants in your forums have done tests that can be published on your site. They have done an excellent job analyzing the images you published.
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Most probably, and usually, the Cosina made lenses, although they are very good, are a different ballpark all together. But still, they are Zeiss branded.
I'd say in most respects the Cosina-made Zeiss lenses are the best of the current bunch. The ZM rangefinder lenses in particular…traditional optical designs, yes, but very well executed. Mine (21/28/35/50) are all of Leica-level quality. Regarding the other lens lines Zeiss is just dealing with the modern world. They need to partner with other firms to make lenses in quantity. And if Tamron, for instance, can come up with a quality iteration of the 85mm Sonnar design—as they've hopefully done, assuming LuLa's test sample is an outlier—why not take advantage of it. Presumably it was commissioned…by Zeiss.
-Dave-
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"I'd say in most respects the Cosina-made Zeiss lenses are the best of the current bunch"
Hye Telecaster.
Long time no see!
I do agree that the Cosina manufactured lenses are superb. My point being that simply, they are very different. I know that those lenses are manufactured and designed to fit a specific brief [as where the SL I line of Voightlander branded lenses, where the ApoLanthar was my fav.].
The only thing I wanted to stress is that, as I grow older [you know, that condition that happens to cure as time passes], I don´t have the time to dig around for too many options. I´m loosing the geeky side of having too much gear. Hence, I get lost with all the Canon and Nikon lens lines: too deep to dig about. I´d rather have a line [max. two lines] of affordable+the best optics. That way, I don´t have to get lost.
With these options [the Sony G lenses, which are very good lenses as well, Sony-Zeiss lenses, the Minolta legacy, the Zeiss branded lenses [the three lines of them so far], and the Cosina lenses], I surely am lost. Too many options to do the job, I´m afraid.
Answering what I would ask to Sony on those lenses, that would be:
-Size reduction: Take the lens to the gym, and have it lean. Not tiny, just lean. The KA 77 Ltd is 1.8, and it is considerably smaller. Taken that it has much less electronics embedded [no AF motor within, no readouts], it is physically just half a lens. With a small camera such as the A7 family, that should be a bonus.
-The built in shade.
-Krinkled finish: Funny, but all the Zeiss glass I have used has the tendency to be a bit slippery. Not bad per se, but not handy when on duty.
-Improve the color rendition of the lens: I don´t know why exactly, but colors do not look right on the samples I downloaded. They have the tendency to have the effect of a recovered HDR image.
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The only thing I wanted to stress is that, as I grow older [you know, that condition that happens to cure as time passes], I don´t have the time to dig around for too many options.
Gotcha. :) Yes, there are a bunch of kinda overlapping, kinda complementary—yet cosmetically & functionally distinct—Zeiss lens lineups for the Sony A7x cameras: the Sony/Zeisses, the Loxias and now the Bati (Batises?). Bit of a mess! I've decided to stick with the AF options, including non-Zeiss Sonys when appropriate.
BTW the Pentax 31 & 77mm Ltds are terrific performers on the A7r(ii). The A series 50/1.2, 100/2.8 & S.M.C 135/2.5 (ne plus ultra variant) are killer too.
(Wow, just watched Mike Fiers of the Houston Astros finish off a no-hitter. On TV, of course. Baseball!)
-Dave-
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;)
Yep, the 31+77 are superb lenses. Very, very recommendable no matter which system you work with.
Other stellar performers are the FA50 1.4 [which IMHO is better than the 1.2 or 1.8], and the DA 35 2.8 Macro [which, incidentally, is a full frame lens, but has high vignetting on the edges when used on FF].
Advantages of the A7 system are the versatility to attach lenses.
edit
Yep: Batus, Bati.
I would be tempted to write Batii, but that might be a bit too uptight.
Just sayin´
;)
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No matter how many professional reviews with test shots on the web, many photographers are still waiting for their Batis lenses, ordered two months ago, promised start July then mid July it's now nearing the end of August and Zeiss Batis no show. Zeiss UK say we are doing the best we can. I recall Nancy Regan prompting President Regan to utter these words many years ago. They mean as little now as they did then.
All of the Sony artisan photographers have cameras same for Zeiss, Fuji etc ad nauseam, but the mani n the street is who pays for the R&R of the cameras, manufacturers should keep that in mind when they attempt the fob off with "we're doing the best we can".
::DS
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Personally I'd rather have 'em right than have 'em now. Assuming there's a legitimate reason they've been delayed (as opposed to distribution sluggishness or bureaucratic silliness). Reviewers often get pre-production or initial production samples, made before manufacturing fully ramps up.
-Dave-
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Kevin,
I was hoping to use your train photos to compare the 85 Batis and 90 macro. Although the thumbnails appear quite similar and show three cars each, the downloaded Batis 85 photo (confirmed by the EXIF) shows four cars.
I cropped the Batis 85 photo to account for the 6% difference in focal length but that didn't come close to matching the change in field of view.
Am I missing something or did you shoot the photos from different locations at different angles to the train?
Ken
This is a reduced version of your 85 Batis shot:
(http://)
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Kevin & Michael,
I share your enthusiasm for the Batis lenses, particularly the 85mm f1.8. My experience with it has been excellent both in shooting and IQ. In fact I would say that it compares quite favorably with both the Otus 85mm f1.4, the 135 mm f2 APO and the 100mm f2 Macro using the Novoflex adapter on the A7II. I have yet to see any issues caused by the compressed raw file. Admittedly I don't push process 5 or 6 stops. But then I come from an analog background where my typical push on chrome film was +1/8 stop.
When I walk out the door , I generally grab the 55mm f1.8 or 35mm f2 Zeiss Loxia. This little camera with it's fabulous choice of available lenses has had a big impact on the way I approach photography. I think more than any other camera in my 40+ years of photography. It's not yet perfect but with the IBIS and focus peaking I am more than pleased with Sony's efforts. In my opinion Nikon and Canon have a lot of catching up to do... Keep up your good reviews.
Douglas Dubler
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In the article it says:
This is Zeiss’s first foray into the AutoFocus lens market for Sony. Their previous lenses were manual focus.
Which is actually not true since the first series of Zeiss lenses for Sony E mount (and Fuji X system), Touit (2.8/12, 1.8/32, 2.8/50M) do provide autofocus. Of course, these might be slightly less useful on Sony FE cameras since these cover only APS-C sensor size as these were released already before Sony A7 series was launched.
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I certainly appreciate the file downloads. The Batis 25mm appears excellent against the Sony Zooms. But I am surprised by how very soft the Batis 85mm seemed in general and especially compared to the amzingly good Sony 90mm. I couldn't help wondering if there was the possibility of some mix up or error in focus with the Batis 85mm, from the gravel it appears the focus might have been in front of the trucks not on them. I suppose that is the downside of providing file downloads, your enthusiastic fan base starts second guessing the results LOL.
Quite a few of the telephoto shots in the download zip are very poorly focused, and the 85 Batis in particular. You don't need to pixel peep to see it either! If that was done using the camera's AF system, tripod mounted, then something's very very wrong. I used to shoot an A7R and the AF was usually very accurate...
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Since this review Zeiss has sent us a new 85mm Batis with the thought that the one used was not quite right. We have completed our tests and returned to lens back to Zeiss. We are working on a follow up and in the second attempt the Batis was very sharp. We will publish the results but at this time we are very busy with numerous field reviews of cameras, printers, papers and more. We'll get it finished and share the results as soon as we can.
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Since this review Zeiss has sent us a new 85mm Batis with the thought that the one used was not quite right.
did they also suggest a comment about their own QA process then ?
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Since this review Zeiss has sent us a new 85mm Batis with the thought that the one used was not quite right. We have completed our tests and returned to lens back to Zeiss. We are working on a follow up and in the second attempt the Batis was very sharp. We will publish the results but at this time we are very busy with numerous field reviews of cameras, printers, papers and more. We'll get it finished and share the results as soon as we can.
Fair enough, thanks for the information.
That was quite worrying though - those photos were very clearly and obviously out of focus. There's always manual if AF lets you down...! ;-)
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My two Batis lenses finally arrived yesterday evening, nearly five months after being ordered. :o But it's a happy ending as both lenses AF properly and perform fine & dandy. Hopefully I'll get a chance this weekend to put some mileage on 'em!
-Dave-