Luminous Landscape Forum

Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Colour Management => Topic started by: Wayne Fox on August 03, 2015, 05:04:13 pm

Title: Silverfast printer profiling with Scanner
Post by: Wayne Fox on August 03, 2015, 05:04:13 pm
Interesting idea.  Would be curious to hear about real world results if anyone tries it ....

http://www.silverfast.com/highlights/printer-calibration/en.html
Title: Re: Silverfast printer profiling with Scanner
Post by: digitaldog on August 03, 2015, 05:06:26 pm
Not at all a new concept. I recall a product or two many, many years ago that used a scanner to build a printer profile. Can't even remember the name. Didn't work very well. Not that this new product doesn't, I have no idea. In theory, using a colorimeter or a device that doesn't really measure spectral data for a profile is iffy. Maybe Mark Segal has tried it.
Let's put it this way, if you own a Spectrophotometer, you'll probably want to use that device.
Title: Re: Silverfast printer profiling with Scanner
Post by: Johnny_Johnson on August 03, 2015, 05:53:20 pm
Mike Chaney (Qimage) released one of the scanner based programs - Profile Prism.

Later,
Johnny
Title: Re: Silverfast printer profiling with Scanner
Post by: Mark D Segal on August 03, 2015, 09:45:46 pm
Maybe Mark Segal has tried it.

Not interested.
Title: Re: Silverfast printer profiling with Scanner
Post by: aderickson on August 04, 2015, 12:44:29 am
My Epson V750 pro scanner came with a program called Monaco EZColor by X-Rite. It was an all-in-one profiling solution. You could profile your monitor, printer and scanner with it. I built a printer profile with it that was satisfactory but not as good as the one I just built with Argyll and a Colormunki.

Allan
Title: Re: Silverfast printer profiling with Scanner
Post by: ErikKaffehr on August 04, 2015, 01:17:09 am
Hi,

I have used it, and I think it is a dead end. Why, because spectrum measurements are needed for proper printer profiles. A scanner is an RGB device with not very well defined characteristics, just like a camera.

Best regards
Erik


Mike Chaney (Qimage) released one of the scanner based programs - Profile Prism.

Later,
Johnny
Title: Re: Silverfast printer profiling with Scanner
Post by: aaronchan on August 04, 2015, 06:35:41 am
I had tried this product before
http://www.qualux.com/ven.html
I believe u can use this with a scanner as well
pretty good, not the best
but it is very convenient

aaron
Title: Re: Silverfast printer profiling with Scanner
Post by: Iliah on August 04, 2015, 01:42:02 pm
Look at this http://www.ebay.com/itm/Gretag-MacBeth-Spectroscan-3-273-Spectrophotometer-P-N-36-55-53-jy-0-C22-/141718904253?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20ff1addbd
Title: Re: Silverfast printer profiling with Scanner
Post by: WayneLarmon on August 04, 2015, 03:51:00 pm
What Iliah said.  In addition, scanners use spiky LEDs.  I'm attaching a spectrum plot of my Epson V600 flatbed scanner's illuminant LED.  It has a sharp spike in the blues, similar to the LEDs in cheap LED flashlights.  It also has a CRI of 64, which is pretty low.

Proper spectrometers usually use a tungsten illuminant which illuminates the visible spectrum much smoother than a spiky LED can.   If you don't want to go for the Spectroscan that Iliah recommended, consider either a ColorMunki Design (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/555132-REG/Pantone_MEU115_ColorMunki_Design_Color_Management.html) or a ColorMunki Photo (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/550833-REG/X_Rite_CMUNPH_ColorMunki_Photo_Color_Management.html).  The ColorMunki Photo is a bit more expensive but comes with a ColorChecker mini target.  ColorMunki Design doesn't come with a target.

You can either use the bundled XRite software, or use ArgyllCMS (that is currently being discussed in several threads in this forum.)  Both of these ColorMunkis are real spectrometers.  Beware though: X-Rite sells other ColorMunkis that are only colorimeters and can't be used to profile printers.   Stick to either ColorMunki Design or ColorMunki Photo.

Wayne

(Click on the image to make it large enough to see the spectral plot.)
Title: Re: Silverfast printer profiling with Scanner
Post by: RHPS on August 05, 2015, 04:28:46 am
What Iliah said.  In addition, scanners use spiky LEDs.  I'm attaching a spectrum plot of my Epson V600 flatbed scanner's illuminant LED.  It has a sharp spike in the blues, similar to the LEDs in cheap LED flashlights.  It also has a CRI of 64, which is pretty low.

Proper spectrometers usually use a tungsten illuminant which illuminates the visible spectrum much smoother than a spiky LED can.

I thought the ColorMunki used a white LED similar to the one in your scanner.....
Title: Re: Silverfast printer profiling with Scanner
Post by: Rhossydd on August 05, 2015, 04:45:31 am
Mike Chaney (Qimage) released one of the scanner based programs - Profile Prism.
Dreadful. I once wasted a lot of time trying to get acceptable results from that with no luck at all.

Title: Re: Silverfast printer profiling with Scanner
Post by: Iliah on August 05, 2015, 09:47:26 am
I thought the ColorMunki used a white LED similar to the one in your scanner.....
But the method is different, for each colour patch Munki performs a reading of spectrum power distribution (30 readings, spectrally separated separated through a diffraction grid) vs. 3-band reading with a scanner / colorimeter.
Title: Re: Silverfast printer profiling with Scanner
Post by: RHPS on August 05, 2015, 11:57:48 am
But the method is different, for each colour patch Munki performs a reading of spectrum power distribution (30 readings, spectrally separated separated through a diffraction grid) vs. 3-band reading with a scanner / colorimeter.
Yes. My point was that a spectrophotometer doesn't have to use a filamant lamp.
Title: Re: Silverfast printer profiling with Scanner
Post by: WayneLarmon on August 05, 2015, 03:49:34 pm
Quote
But the method is different, for each colour patch Munki performs a reading of spectrum power distribution (30 readings, spectrally separated separated through a diffraction grid) vs. 3-band reading with a scanner / colorimeter.

So ColorMunkis do use white LEDs?  Does this affect accuracy?  Compared to spectrometers that use tungsten?  (Like the i1Pros do AFAIK.)

Wayne
Title: Re: Silverfast printer profiling with Scanner
Post by: ErikKaffehr on August 05, 2015, 04:02:02 pm
Hi,

It shouldn't matter! You measure spectral reflectance and the illuminant spectrum and the target is well known.

Best regards
Erik


So ColorMunkis do use white LEDs?  Does this affect accuracy?  Compared to spectrometers that use tungsten?  (Like the i1Pros do AFAIK.)

Wayne
Title: Re: Silverfast printer profiling with Scanner
Post by: WayneLarmon on August 05, 2015, 04:16:20 pm
Quote
It shouldn't matter! You measure spectral reflectance and the illuminant spectrum and the target is well known.

But it seems to matter when using, for example, lumpy low CRI LED lighting for photography and attempting to compensate with a custom camera profile.  The spectral reflectance and the illuminant spectrum and the target are also well known.   But nobody wants to use low CRI LED lighting for photography.

Wayne