Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Colour Management => Topic started by: Malina DZ on July 20, 2015, 09:33:53 pm
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(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/346/19645840230_4d1156bdbf_b.jpg)
Could someone familiar with the subject matter take a look at the RAW file (https://goo.gl/BEmbIq) on their calibrated monitor with at least 10-bit adobeRGB color space support and tell me if the color is matching the original Louboutin red hue? If not, can you adjust the raw file and output adobeRGB jpg file that would retain the proper color?
I've spent some time in LR trying to match the original color in the image, but can't quite get to my acceptance point. The owner of the shoes says the sole color doesn't match (in ProPhoto color space, though my screen supports only adobeRGB).
I'm not sure whether it's my monitor or CCD sensor that can't cope with the color. BTW, my PS skills are below average.
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It's a raw yes but everyone's converter and setting will produce a different rendering. Better to see what you've come up with on you end and supply a rendered image I think....
It's supposed to match what?
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Andrew, I've posted the final output. Is it not visible? It's supposed to match the original color of the sole which is consistent, I suppose, for this brand.
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Andrew, I've posted the final output. Is it not visible? It's supposed to match the original color of the sole which is consistent, I suppose, for this brand.
You mean the presumably sRGB image in your post? It's visible yes. But we're supposed to match the raw to exactly what?
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But we're supposed to match the raw to exactly what?
I see what you mean now :) That's why I wrote "those familiar with the subject matter"... I couldn't find the color code this brand is using to match to.
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I see what you mean now :) That's why I wrote "those familiar with the subject matter"... I couldn't find the color code this brand is using to match to.
The subject being those specific shoes? Sorry, can't help. IF I had a them, I could measure the color or I could attempt to render your raw and maybe view the shoes and what I get off my NEC SpectraView. Short of that, I don't know how anyone can assist unless they have the shoes. Then we have to get into how we illuminate them...
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Did an image search on Louboutin Red and get a myriad of variations of course viewed in sRGB, close to my display's gamut.
Is this an orange or magenta red and is the luminance dark, midtone or upper mid?
Could you do an image search on this red and provide a link to one that matches the closest to the owner's shoes?
I've never heard of this red.
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Which one of the two looks closest?
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Andrew, Tim, thank you for your replies. I understand that my request seems odd. I didn't encounter such a drastic color change in reds when converting files to adobeRGB or sRGB before.
I checked out the OEM (link (http://images.us.christianlouboutin.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/thumbnail/1200x/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/3/0/8/0/christianlouboutin-pigalle-3080680_bk01_3_1200x1200_1426593993.jpg)) and retailer websites. Their image quality is on a poor side, and color is way off.
Tim, both of your variants look dull and flat on my screen compared to the original. One must see the color in person to appreciate it since everything I saw online is not representative of the real color.
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Hi Malina DZ,
Interesting task. I did a search for Louboutin shoes in the internet and took a look at the images presented there.
https://www.google.com.mx/search?q=louboutin+shoes&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0CEIQsARqFQoTCMfP8umj7MYCFQYXkgod1kwEZw&biw=1920&bih=984#imgrc=_
Looking at your images and the images I found I see your red a bit lacking of black eg. the sole should be toned down into a darker red.
¿ Do you have a pair of shoes at hand ? I guess that will be the only way to achieve what the owner of the shoes wants.
As you can see in the search many of the red soles in those images are not equal. It is also a matter of illumination and how they were illuminated at the moment of the shot.
IMHO :)
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I don't know whether it can be helpful:
…the registered original colour code of Christian Louboutin red sole is Pantone-18 Chinese Red (18-1663 TPX, Class 25)…
http://carsandlife.net/2012/12/what-is-the-colour-code-of-christian-louboutin-red-soles.html
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I don't know whether it can be helpful:
…the registered original colour code of Christian Louboutin red sole is Pantone-18 Chinese Red (18-1663 TPX, Class 25)…
http://carsandlife.net/2012/12/what-is-the-colour-code-of-christian-louboutin-red-soles.html
Couldn't find the CIELab color space conversion on this particular Pantone color so I went by the most vibrant cotton swatch shown on Amazon which shows it's around L43, 65a, 45b. I've never seen such a fervor on ownership of one single color.
What they leave out is that this color of red can change appearance according to how its spectral make up reflects back one particular intensity/hue of red depending on the type of light it's viewed under. Pantone can change pigment formulation using alternate substances and other periodic table elements to make this red look different under various lights. That's how they hold their patent and ownership through chemistry. Folks who paint the bottom of their high heel shoes don't know this property of color and so knock-offs are easy to test for.
Anyway I gave it a go using HSL adjusts in ACR and got this rendition.
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Looking at your images and the images I found I see your red a bit lacking of black eg. the sole should be toned down into a darker red.
As you can see in the search many of the red soles in those images are not equal. It is also a matter of illumination and how they were illuminated at the moment of the shot.
Hello Rainer SLP. Thanks for chiming in. Original red color is indeed darker (or better said deeper?) but with glossy sparkle. That's where the problem seems to hide. Either sensor or monitor can't cope with the proper color rendition from shadow to highlight areas in adobeRGB color space. These red soles don't get as warm under incandescent light as you see in my image shot with a speedlight.
I don't know whether it can be helpful:
…the registered original colour code of Christian Louboutin red sole is Pantone-18 Chinese Red (18-1663 TPX, Class 25)…
Thank you francois! Good to know the color code. In reality that red hue is not as simple as PantonePaint displays on their website with the color code #BE2239 (http://www.pantonepaint.com/pages/pantone/colorfinder.aspx?c_id=3788).
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Couldn't find the CIELab color space conversion on this particular Pantone color so I went by the most vibrant cotton swatch shown on Amazon which shows it's around L43, 65a, 45b.
Tim, great detective work. L43, 65a, 45b color is very close. I'd say that in real life the color in question retains its properties pretty well from incandescent light to day light without pollution unlike other colors.
This time your conversion has a closer color match, but it is missing dimensionality which is probably due to the limits of sRGB color space that flattens out detail and color range.
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Tim, great detective work. L43, 65a, 45b color is very close. I'd say that in real life the color in question retains its properties pretty well from incandescent light to day light without pollution unlike other colors.
This time your conversion has a closer color match, but it is missing dimensionality which is probably due to the limits of sRGB color space that flattens out detail and color range.
Just some custom curve and parametric curve adjusts to put back some of the tonal shadows and shine in the red. If I'm close as you say then it's doable on your end using a wider gamut display.
I see from your attempt that you've over cranked the contrast which will distort hue/saturation.
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Hi Malina DZ,
I tested yesterday something else. I went into the www.pantone.com page were you can search for the color Chinese Red. You will get 2 little icons one with Pantone 18-1663 TCX and the other with Pantone 18-1663 TPX.
I then made a screen copy and measured the color. Perhaps if you do that, you can come closer to the result, but as already said by a few, the problem is the illumination and as the sole is not matte but glossy, you have, as you said, the problem of illuminating this evenly.
I measured the sole of the shoe in your image and some parts were quite similar as the icons I copied from the pantone page.
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If the red you are looking for is Pantone Chinese Red, Pantone 18-1663 TCX, then here is a link to a site that lists several Pantone colors, including 18-1663 TCX, and will link you out to Adobe Kuler with all of the color info.
Site:
http://force4u.cocolog-nifty.com/skywalker/2011/01/kuler-linkpanto.html
scroll down to the 18-1663 TCX entry, or do a find in your web browser for "Chinese Red" to find the entry on the list.
Clicking on the link takes you to the Kuler web interface with the color information displayed below the color swatch. I have no idea if this information is at all accurate.
The Kuler information lists this red as:
L53 a80 b67.
If you create a new PS document in ProPhotoRGB and enter this LAB value, you get:
R174 G68 B27
Convert to AdobeRGB and you get:
R215 G0 B14 (RelCol).
(in AbsCol intent, R220 G0 B0).
Convert to sRGB:
R250 G0 B10.
(R255 G0 B0 AbsCol).
For this red, you might need to measure it from a sample of the shoe or the pigment/paint.
kirk
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Hi Malina DZ,
I tested yesterday something else. I went into the www.pantone.com page were you can search for the color Chinese Red. You will get 2 little icons one with Pantone 18-1663 TCX and the other with Pantone 18-1663 TPX.
I then made a screen copy and measured the color. Perhaps if you do that, you can come closer to the result, but as already said by a few, the problem is the illumination and as the sole is not matte but glossy, you have, as you said, the problem of illuminating this evenly.
I measured the sole of the shoe in your image and some parts were quite similar as the icons I copied from the pantone page.
I went to that Pantone site and got the swatch for TCX which is Cotton Textile, TPX is for Paper Textile. The color swatch I get is way too dark and dull where as Kirk's seems closer to the highlights of red paint on a hard surface. Paper and cotton surfaces tend to absorb and dull the intensity and brightness of inks to a degree over glossy coated hard surfaces.
Which makes the quote from the Pantone site make sense...
* Before using, understand that the colors shown on this site are computer simulations of the PANTONE colors and may not match PANTONE-identified color standards. Always consult PANTONE Publications to visually evaluate any result before utilization.
The way you lit your setup prevents the "full spectrum" light to fluoresce the pigments contained in the paint if that particular paint has those qualities. Some paint pigments do and some don't.
Here's an example of an inkjet ink print off a Fuji Frontier Drylab on glossy paper showing fluorescing due to the print being exposed to more light.
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Hi Kirk and Tim,
Thanks a lot for that information.
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The Kuler information lists this red as: L53 a80 b67.
Pantone Color Manager cxf3 files show 18-1663 TCX (Cotton) as L*a*b* 42.5, 65.45, 37.19
and 18-1663 TPX (Paper) as L*a*b* 43.56, 63.54, 30.76
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Pantone Color Manager cxf3 files show 18-1663 TCX (Cotton) as L*a*b* 42.5, 65.45, 37.19
and 18-1663 TPX (Paper) as L*a*b* 43.56, 63.54, 30.76
Then that tells me the Amazon Cotton fabric swatch I took readings from using my Mac's DigitalColor Meter (CIELab setting) wasn't too far off.
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Tim, Rainer SLP, kirkt, GWGill, thank you all for the valuable input!
This color on a glossy surface is a pita to output correctly preserving the detail in shadows and highlights even knowing the target color primary value. Suggestions to revise the illumination for a more evenly spread light over the subject I consider as giving up a creative intent over technical limitations of the tools at hand. This was a simple setup to test CCD vs CMOS red color rendering at which they both failed, including myself for not being able to manipulate the RAW files. I'd rather add more reflections to the glossy surface to emphasize the subject's contours if I knew the sensor could handle the color gamut without faking it at capture.
If I'm close as you say then it's doable on your end using a wider gamut display.
I see from your attempt that you've over cranked the contrast which will distort hue/saturation.
Well spotted Tim, I did crank up the saturation and contrast up to the clipping limits in ProPhotoRGB Development mode. Conversion to sRGB skewed the color even farther way of course.
Pantone Color Manager cxf3 files show 18-1663 TCX (Cotton) as L*a*b* 42.5, 65.45, 37.19
and 18-1663 TPX (Paper) as L*a*b* 43.56, 63.54, 30.76
GWGill, thanks for the color patch values. They are really close for a mat surface. If you try to follow the steps suggested by kirkt, you'll notice that the source color doesn't vary much after the conversion to sRGB, unlike the color in my RAW files when soft proofing for sRGB before making any adjustments.
Even when I get close to the target color in ProPhotoRGB, conversion to adobeRGB skews the color and clips shadow/highlight detail. >:(
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Your purpose behind what you're attempting doesn't have a well defined goal or it's become obscured by all the technicalities discussed.
If the output of these red shoes is strictly for display purposes and not for print, then it's not going to make one bit of difference being this precise on how this red appears since color appearance can't be controlled on this level for web display due to all the uncalibrated displays especially over saturated Samsung Galaxy AMOLED smart phones.
There are perception tricks done either in front or behind the camera in post that can make this red appear out of this world. One suggestion is to place the shoes in a somewhat natural looking setup with a darker looking surrounding background instead of the bright white canvas painting you've setup.
Maybe have a canvas with a mid grayish complimentary color (green) and/or a muted, darker pastel tertiary color (light yellowish green) that will perceptually enhance the vibrancy of the red.