Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: Jager on July 01, 2015, 08:07:43 pm
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My new P800, pre-ordered from B&H when it was announced a few months ago, arrived this morning. As a current 3880 owner (dedicated to Piezography), and prior owner of a 3800, 2400, and a couple of early, small-format dye-ink Epsons, some quick first impressions...
- Basic weight and footprint are very similar to the 3800/3880.
- General build quality is on par with the 3800/3880.
- The touch panel front display is very nice. And it can be rotated upwards so it is easy to see when looking down at the printer. Nice touch.
- The remove-all-the-blue-tape pre-installation drill is still very much in place. I have to tip my hat to the engineer who came up with those million pieces of tape. And I'd sure as heck like to know how they get them all in place!
- Basic setup takes a while, but is very straightforward.
- Unlike the full, 80ml carts provided with the 3800/3880 (one of the reasons those printers were/are such terrific purchase values), the P800 comes with 64ml 'starter' carts. Losing 16ml per isn't the biggest deal in the world, but, hey, it's something.
- The wireless WiFi connectivity is very nice. Easy to set up and, if it proves reliable (the wireless on my general purpose HP Laserjet is not reliable, dropping the connection and requiring a power-cycle of the printer in order to reestablish connectivity) is a nice convenience. That said, it's not that big a deal - the printer will obviously be utilized in a fixed location and including a USB cable in that scenario is trivial.
- ICC profiles for Epson papers are obviously included in the Epson driver download. Canson profiles are not yet available. When I inquired, a Canson rep got back to me very quickly and said their team in France is currently working on them and they should have them up very soon - within a couple weeks. Unlike previous Epson printer releases, Canson did not receive a pre-release unit so that they could have them available when the printer shipped. I did not check with Hahnemuehle.
- Absolutely nothing definitive - I only made a couple prints - but (color) image quality seems pretty much identical to what I received with my 3880 before I turned it into a dedicated B&W printer.
- Biggest disappoint is the paper handling. I print exclusively using a variety of fine art papers, typically around 300gsm. On my 3880 I use the rear manual feed pretty much exclusively, only using the auto sheet feeder when dropping in a sheet of plain paper for my daily nozzle check. The front tray feed can be used for very heavy media, of course, but the much greater distance to the heads tends to slightly diminish image quality. The front feed is also just a little finicky. The rear manual feed is quick, easy, and works very well.
With that as the backdrop, I was very disappointed to find that the P800 has eliminated the rear manual feed altogether. Your choice is the auto sheet feeder or the manual front tray (or optional roll feed, which I do not have). According to the manual, the auto sheet feed is only for thinner media - typically NOT the papers a serious fine art photographer would be using.
On balance, it seems like a nice enough printer. But I remain deeply puzzled by Epson's choice in dropping the rear manual feed. I may change my mind in coming weeks as I use it more, but after one day my assessment is that the P800 is a step backward. If I had it to do over again I'd have bought a second 3880.
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Thanks for the first impressions, Jeff. This is a printer I'm considering for purchase. I'm not sure how I feel about the front feed for heavier paper but it could be worse I suppose. I got used to feeding the HP Z3100 sheets from the rear and it does seem nicer perhaps to feed sheets from the front.
I read Keith Cooper's review http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/reviews/printer/epson-sc_p800_review.html and thought this might be a good machine.
I look forward to more insight from you as you use the printer.
Thanks!
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Thank you for your overview.
Does the front feed have the same size limitations as the 3880: basically A2 max (16.5" x 23.4") with minimum borders of 0.78' leading and trailing, 1/8" sides, no borderless? You can get around the platen gap by using a carrier sheet underneath to raise the printable sheet, but it is a hassle.
I must admit, I have never had problems feeding 300 g/m2 art paper through the sheet feeder, but it will not take Epson Somerset Velvet 505, and I have my doubts about Hahnemühle Museum Etching 350 g/m2.
Can you feed sheet through the roll feed?
Brian A
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fer chris sake. Really Epson? starter carts w/ a whopping 16ml less? could you be more chintzy?
And I get the feeling that the standard answer is going to be 'well, just buy the $200 roll widget and get your FA paper on a roll'
C'mon Canon, this is a ripe opportunity to do a 5100 replacement.
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I'd say knowing about the lack of rear manual feed (looks like it's been repurposed to be the roll feed, and can't be toggled) is pretty important.
The roll feed is not vacuum fed nor is the roll spindle mechanically driven, could the printer simply be tricked to say "hey use the roll feed" when you just load a single sheet through it instead?
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I don't have the P800, but the P600 also seems to have had a major redesign for how you load thicker fine art media into the printer. There is a secondary rear door on the back of the printer you open for thicker media, but you don't insert media there. You feed all thicker media from the front of the printer. Epson obviously had some reason to do such a major redesign for paper transport. That said, I don't really get it, either. It seems different but not discerningly more capable or reliable. I have just gone along with the new feed mechanism and gotten used to it, but I don't know what the practical improvement is, if any, to this new design philosophy, other than conjecture that Epson engineers might have been responding to user feedback saying customers didn't like to have to reach behind the printer to load media. It's just a guess on my part.
cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
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Actually, the fine art loading works pretty well.
You have 3 options:
1. No change in the sheet feed
2. or the old front loading for heavy sheets.
3. For fine art papers, you pull out the rear support tray. Load the paper from the front and when you press the load button it goes to rest in the rear tray. Push the front tray in after loading. When you are ready to print, from Lightroom or wherever, the paper flows nicely out the front.
I tried this with an Ex Fiber 13x19 and a Canson Barytya 17x22.
No issues, and in my view, an improvement.
Both the color, as well as the ABW prints looked great.
In the Basics manual, check pages 8-9 - Loading Fine Art Paper
My SC-P800, also purchased from B&H, replaced a 3880 which died after just 600 prints.
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Luminous-Landscape review on the P800 by Mark Segal by 7:30 AM on Friday.
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Luminous-Landscape review on the P800 by Mark Segal by 7:30 AM on Friday.
I hope my 3800 will hold out until Friday. ;)
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Thanks, Kevin. Looking forward to Mark's review.
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Is it possible that the rear flap is to allow thick media to load from the front but be kept flat whilst printing. If so,the media can roll through the rear before printing starts? My old ipf 6100 worked like that.
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Is it possible that the rear flap is to allow thick media to load from the front but be kept flat whilst printing. If so,the media can roll through the rear before printing starts? My old ipf 6100 worked like that.
Both the fine art paper, and the thick media are loaded from the front, but for the fine art paper the rear support tray is pulled out whereas it is kept closed for the thick media. So thick media will go straight and fine art paper goes up the support tray and sits there until printing.
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The primary benefit of the manual front load on the 3800/3880 was/is that media remains flat. The feed path is perfectly horizontal and there is no need for the paper to bend at any point.
To obtain that benefit you had to accept two disadvantages... at least a theoretical - and in most cases, real - slight diminishment in image quality, due to the much greater distance between the heads and the paper; and a fiddly loading arrangement. The quality issue can be mitigated somewhat, though perhaps not altogether, by placing an appropriately-sized piece of matt board under the paper. There's no way getting around the fiddly loading arrangement.
The P800 has combined the worst of both worlds. You're forced to use the fiddly front load. And the feed path is NOT flat - as the paper is captured it is pulled back into the rear of the printer, where it then curls up against the rear support.
The steps to load a sheet using the manual front feed (on 2nd and subsequent prints during a session) are:
- return the front paper support to its parked position
- press the center of the manual feed tray, which then drops down and extends slightly
- place your sheet on that tray, aligned with the right and front edges
- press the 'load' button on the printer display and wait for the printer to raise up and capture your sheet
- press the center of the manual feed tray, which then retracts
- pull out the front paper support
- print
Repeat for each print.
(Note, there is an option to maintain a perfectly flat feed path using the front feed, just like in the 3800/3880).
If your media is perfectly flat, it goes in with no issue. If it has any curl at all, however, you'll need to - literally - fiddle with it. I also wonder about the durability of the ratcheting mechanism of the center feed tray, on a printer made largely of plastic, when it must be used on every single print.
Other than that aspect of the paper handling - something which may prove to be little about nothing, after extensive use - I quite like the printer.
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I've long wondered how reliable the WiFi connection to a printer might be. Particularly in a photo application where very large amounts of data must be supplied.
The wireless connection on my P800 seemed pretty reliable the first two days. The router is in the same room, about ten feet away, and going into the network panel on the printer shows connectivity to be 'Excellent.'
Alas, today I noticed several long pauses while printing. The first few times, printing resumed after the pause. Finally, however, the print job halted with a 'Communications Error.' It did not restart. And I did not see any way to prompt it to resume.
I don't necessarily ascribe those difficulties to the Epson, but more to the vagaries of wireless communications in general. In any event, I've pulled out a USB cable and that works fine.
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I've long wondered how reliable the WiFi connection to a printer might be. Particularly in a photo application where very large amounts of data must be supplied.
The wireless connection on my P800 seemed pretty reliable the first two days. The router is in the same room, about ten feet away, and going into the network panel on the printer shows connectivity to be 'Excellent.'
Alas, today I noticed several long pauses while printing. The first few times, printing resumed after the pause. Finally, however, the print job halted with a 'Communications Error.' It did not restart. And I did not see any way to prompt it to resume.
I don't necessarily ascribe those difficulties to the Epson, but more to the vagaries of wireless communications in general. In any event, I've pulled out a USB cable and that works fine.
In places that need heavy network traffic, such as TV and printer, I extended the wireless network by adding powerline adapter access points. Works for me.
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Anybody try canvas on the P800? I have had a hell of a time with my 3800, but as I am not doing this for a living, I can live with it. If the roll feed works well with canvas, that would be a positive, and of course my inks are not up to the latest version. My 3800 is at least 5 years old, or whenever they came out.
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Hi,
I know this is the luminous landscape for a reason, but even in the review no information is mention about skin tones. All the test images, are naturally, landscape /city scape like.
Any information about skin tones, both dark and light will be even better.
Thanks,
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I'll let Mark comment on any skin tones he may have printed in the course of his review (and many thanks for that extensive effort, Mark. It is very helpful). I'll only say that in prints I've made, including people, there have been zero surprises with respect to tonality or color. To my eye the P800 renders pretty much exactly as does the 3880. (I've yet to print anything that would exhibit the deeper blacks that Mark speaks of).
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I'll let Mark comment on any skin tones he may have printed in the course of his review (and many thanks for that extensive effort, Mark. It is very helpful). I'll only say that in prints I've made, including people, there have been zero surprises with respect to tonality or color. To my eye the P800 renders pretty much exactly as does the 3880. (I've yet to print anything that would exhibit the deeper blacks that Mark speaks of).
Hi,
Thanks a lot.
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I can't find info on maximum print length>
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Maximum print length is 129 inches (327.7 cm)
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One question I have is about the inkset and cartridges. All except two of the 3800 cartridges can also be used in a 3880.
Can any of the 3800/3880 cartridges be used in the P800, or are they all new?
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Ink carts on the P800 are about the same size as those in the 3800/3880. But they are different part numbers. I'm guessing, even if they are physically identical, the cart chips would prevent using one in the other.
That's just a guess...
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When I bought my Epson 3880, I called them to ask what I could do with my leftover 1800 cartridges and told them which colors I had. They sent me the equivalent (or close) cartridges for the 3880 for free!
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My take based on use and reviews is that if you need the roll paper handling, then the P800 is fine. But if you are using cut sheet or like me, you cut your own sheets from roll paper (I cut from 24" rolls), then the 3880 is probably a better bet while it is still available. With the regular $300 rebate, it is by far a better value.
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Have you been able to find any new ones for sale recently?
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Anybody try canvas on the P800? I have had a hell of a time with my 3800, but as I am not doing this for a living, I can live with it. If the roll feed works well with canvas, that would be a positive, and of course my inks are not up to the latest version. My 3800 is at least 5 years old, or whenever they came out.
Michael reviewed the 3800 on this site in 2006, so we're looking at about 9 years.
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I'll let Mark comment on any skin tones he may have printed in the course of his review (and many thanks for that extensive effort, Mark. It is very helpful). I'll only say that in prints I've made, including people, there have been zero surprises with respect to tonality or color. To my eye the P800 renders pretty much exactly as does the 3880. (I've yet to print anything that would exhibit the deeper blacks that Mark speaks of).
The only prints I made that focus on skin tones are those of the Outback printer test target, which provide useful evidence on skin tones. I saw no irregularities comparing them between the printers. This is expected in a print set-up that is properly colour-managed including quality profiles, because of course from a technical perspective skin tones are just another bunch of numbers that need to be correctly rendered to the output space. The Epson profiles for this printer that I worked with are very good. I should add - there is often a subjective element to skin tones that can over-ride technically correct numbers regardless of the printer. The merit of looking at them through the test target is that one has an objectively comparable benchmark.
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Ink carts on the P800 are about the same size as those in the 3800/3880. But they are different part numbers. I'm guessing, even if they are physically identical, the cart chips would prevent using one in the other.
That's just a guess...
According to Epson this is an "all new inkset" for the Surecolor series. If that's the case, the math in the driver for ink lay-down, dithering etc. could well be different than it was for the 3880. If you're going to buy a new printer that features improved maximum black, and according to Epson a more fade-resistant yellow, and perhaps has different ink lay-down algorithms it would seem to make the most sense - providing the greatest benefits - using the correct inks for which the printer was designed.
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My take based on use and reviews is that if you need the roll paper handling, then the P800 is fine. But if you are using cut sheet or like me, you cut your own sheets from roll paper (I cut from 24" rolls), then the 3880 is probably a better bet while it is still available. With the regular $300 rebate, it is by far a better value.
From what I hear, there are no 3880s left to buy new in Toronto. Nor do B&H and Adorama show them on their websites. If you need a new printer in that class you'd buy a P800.
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I can't find info on maximum print length>
From page 193 of the Manual (free download on the Epson website):
Non-standard sizes between 3.5 inches (89 mm) and 17 inches
(432 mm) wide, and between 5 inches (127 mm) and 129 inches
(3276.7 mm) long
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Anybody using canvas with the P800? I am clinging to my 3800, which mark tells is 9 years old, and it would be a great relief to have a printer that would be happy with canvas, even if I have to do the roll thingy. 8)
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I received my P800 within the last few days and printed several images on Canson and Ilford today using the front "fine-art" tray. It was not difficult to keep the paper straight nor did you need alot of room behind the printer for the paper feed. My only bugaboo is that you first need to feed the paper through the front loader and then have the front loader retract so that the image now has a straight printing path. However, in many ways, this is easier than feeding 'fine art" paper through a 3880 or even a 4900. If you do not print everyday, it is my humble opinion, that a P800 is the way to go.
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Interested reading about the comments people are posting about their personal experience from the P800. I am also at the crossroads where I need to make a decision whether to buy another R3880 or move forward to the P800
Epson R3880
It appears that the R3800/3880 has been a tried and tested printer and for some has stood the test of time for durability. My R3880 is only just under 3 years old and has died. It has only been used for personal use and in my opinion has not been misused. To look at it, you would think its less than 3 months old as the condition is immaculate both inside and out.
The fault with the printer is that the PK status monitor shows 73% full but in fact the cart is empty weighing in at only 60g compared to a full cart that weighs 150g. It has gotten to the stage now that I have to do a head clean every day if not twice a day because the PK checks just fail leaving broken lines on the nozzle check. Also, the yellow appears to be getting contaminated with black on the nozzle check.
According to Epson Support, they are saying that I need the Ink system replacing at a cost of nearly £600 plus i will need a new set of carts to prime the system. Obviously, un-ecomomical.
I have only seen a handful of people complaining about the same problem on the internet which has to tell you that, this is a known fault but a rare one at that based on the number of 3880 printers which must have been sold worldwide.
Yes... it has disappointed me but life is life and now I have to decide whether to look for another 3880, or move forward in technology and go for the P800 or look at a competitor such as Canon.
Epson P800
Having read all the posts, I get the impression that everyone is pleased with the print and build quality but the only niggle is the way in which the paper feed works. I am assuming that if you can only feed heavy weight papers from the front, then the printer has to be some distance from the wall to allow the paper to travel through just like the 3880.
Only having 64ml of ink from new is little disappointing as well based on the initial price of the unit.
Would be nice to see a Youtube video review of the P800 including paper feeding, noise and to see the unit in action.
Ian
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Hi Ian,
Sorry to hear about your problem with the 3880 - kind of surprising given the reputation of that printer being the least troublesome of the lot. Anyhow, as you say, life is life and one must look forward. I assume you've read the reviews from both Keith Cooper (Northlight Imaging) and me (this website) on the performance of this printer. Keith, compared to me, focused relatively more on the mechanicals and me on the characteristics of output and handling of image editing to suit this printer. I think you'll get an appreciation between the two reviews that the P800 is a fine printer. That said, both of us had review units made available to us before the final version and we had to return them to Epson, precluding a long period of stress testing, so neither of us, or I daresay anyone else, can yet have a definitive view on clogging or long-term performance stability, save to say that while I had mine, it worked just fine. For the week or so I had the prerelease unit I did not experience paper feeding hang-ups from either the top feed or the front feed, and I tried both with various thick-ish papers (Ilford Gold Fibre Silk, Epson Hot Press Natural) and thinner (Epson Premium Luster or whatever they call it now). When using the front feed you do need to leave some space behind the printer. The noise level I found comparatively low, compared with my 4900, for example. If I were in the market for a new printer, the major feature that would swing me toward the P800 is the tremendous DMax - produces the blackest blacks I've achieved in 15 years of inkjet printing. Anyhow, you can read-up on all of that in the reviews. Epson claims the longevity of Yellow has also been improved. As for the 64ml ink fill - multiplied by 8 that is still a very large amount of ink - you can make a great many prints before buying a cartridge, and from what I'm informed, very little of it ends up in the waste tank on initial charging. Most of it is in the ink delivery system.
I can't advise whether you should buy a Canon or an Epson or anything else, but remember you are in the 17 inch segment of the market where choice of professional printers is quite limited; I remain to be persuaded that any other manufacturer produces a recent vintage printer of this quality in the 17 inch professional range.
(typo corrected)
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You know what I have NOT heard about the P800?
Pizza!!
Has that issue been addressed in the 800? Has anyone *seen* pizza wheel marks?
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You know what I have NOT heard about the P800?
Pizza!!
Has that issue been addressed in the 800? Has anyone *seen* pizza wheel marks?
I have not, on any of the output I produced during the testing period.
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That's great to hear. Hopefully, it's a design feature and not just 'you got a good one'.
My 3880 is definitely worse (see it on dark areas about 2-3" from the right margin) than my old 3800 (never saw one).
At least on the 3880, once the paper dries down, it's 90+% unnoticeable unless the light hits it from a very oblique angle.
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I'm the OP and have now been printing steadily with the P800 for a couple of months. My fondness for the machine has only deepened with use.
I remain mildly disappointed with paper handling in the P800 (versus the 3880) - the loss of the rear manual feed and the subsequent requirement that all fine art papers be fed through the front manual feed. But all things considered that is a minor niggle. Ultimately, the outstanding print quality trumps everything else. Like Mark says, the improved dMax and the rich blacks are very noticeable. You'll see the improvement in nearly every print.
I still have my 3880 (dedicated to Piezography K7), running right next to the P800. I'd say the two printers are very close, if not identical, in terms of operating sound. (I won't call it 'noise,' as it is anything but loud, and holds for me a hint of mystery and anticipation, and I love to hear it).
Sorry to hear about your 3880, Ian. I can't speak to the Canon or HP equivalents. But I definitely think the P800 is an able successor to its 3800/3880 forbears.
Edit - Re: pizza wheel marks on the P800... I have printed on a great many different papers, both glossy and matte, and have not encountered any.
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I assume all of the ink carts have different SKU's or p/n's than the 3880?
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Yes, they are different ink carts.
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H Ian,
I have now had my P800 for a few months. AS I use mostly non matte type papers I am predominantly using the top paper loader. I have no problem using single sheets of Canson Platine or Baryta or Ilford Gold fiber Silk.The printer has been idle for weeks at a time and prints without clogs, so far. This was a significant difference from my 4900 experience. The Dmax of the printer with the above papers is significant, not so much with the few matte papers I have used.
Jed
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Do you find the Canson Platine a dusting problem for you?
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I didn't with the 4900 nor with the P 800.
Jed
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"Only having 64ml of ink from new is little disappointing as well based on the initial price of the unit."
If memory serves me well, a new 3880 also ships with the 64ml cartridge. Replacement cartridges for both are 80ml.
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To be fair, I only read somewhere that 64ml is supplied, I am not sure how this can be confirmed to be honest unless it is stated in the user manual
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I installed my cartridges just this morning. It is plainly printed on the cartridges = 64ml
bob snow
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You are indeed correct, Ian. The P800 ships with 64ml starter carts. Subsequent cart replacements are 80ml, just like the 3800/3880.
I've also not experienced any dusting with Platine Fiber Rag, one of my most-used papers. Not that I ever experienced it with my 3880, either. I only use sheet media and perhaps that's a factor.
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I noticed you mentioned the 3880 has black ink showing up in the yellow parts in the nozzle checks.
I remember there were some mentions on similar things re. epson here, and it was something with ink selector (?)
---if you throw it away, maybe the garment printers who use modified 3880 can use it? They change the ink supply anyway.
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If memory serves me well, a new 3880 also ships with the 64ml cartridge. Replacement cartridges for both are 80ml.
One of the attractions of the 3880 was that if came with 80ml non-starter, i.e. normal carts. So the P800 is more expensive to the tune of 9 x 16ml of ink, in addition to any difference in the dollar price.
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Having read all the comments about the P800, my personal view is that it makes logical sense to purchase one of these printers rather than buy another R3880.
Although Epson Support have told me that the Ink system on my R3880 needs replacing at a cost of £540 ( $800 ) plus each cart needs to be 50% full for the priming, I thought I had nothing to lose by stripping down the printer and have a poke around.
After about 2 hours, I eventually got the printer back up and running, so far I have done about 20 prints.
Have I cured the problem ?. Hard to say as it's early days but nevertheless, I found it a very interesting exercise and I am not convinced that the the ink system and changeover switch is actually at fault.
I have created a small blog post with some documentary images on what I did for anyone that maybe interested.
http://www.digitalblackandwhite.co.uk/printing/epson-r3880-revived.html/ (http://www.digitalblackandwhite.co.uk/printing/epson-r3880-revived.html/)
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I have created a small blog post with some documentary images on what I did for anyone that maybe interested.
http://www.digitalblackandwhite.co.uk/printing/epson-r3880-revived.html/ (http://www.digitalblackandwhite.co.uk/printing/epson-r3880-revived.html/)
Thanks for writing that up. I'll save a link in case my 3880 misbehaves.
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Although my 3880 appears to be printing again, I still have lost a little confidence it in simply because in the last 24 hours, I have had to do another head clean.
Before I pull the trigger on buying the P800, after the initial priming, did anyone happen to notice how much ink was left in the 64ml cartridges.
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give it another 48-72 hours etc. it could be just some air bubbles working themselves out of the lines after your surgery.
Didn't the 3880 use something like 20-30ml to charge the lines?
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Before I pull the trigger on buying the P800, after the initial priming, did anyone happen to notice how much ink was left in the 64ml cartridges.
What's more important is to know how much ink goes to the waste tank, because I am informed, I hope reliably, that most of the ink used in the initial charge-up remains in the ink delivery system and will be used for printing, so you can't tell from the net amount remaining in the cartridges how much is actually unavailable for printing. As for how much goes into the tank, I don't have quantified information, but I think you may be able to visually look at how much of the maintenance tank is consumed (I forget on that particular model and I don't have one any longer to check). On my 4900 LCD display it shows along with the remaining ink graphics.
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give it another 48-72 hours etc. it could be just some air bubbles working themselves out of the lines after your surgery.
Would you recommend frequent usage over the next 48 - 72 hours.
I keep looking at an email I received from someone a few weeks ago who told me that in his opinion, the MK -> PK ink change damper was sticking which is causing PK ink to be leaking, hence the reason why the status monitor for the PK is displaying false information.
Having stripped this down as far as I can, it looked very clean and when you rotate the motor shaft by hand, you can watch the cam move the plastic switching arm back and forth .
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A fresh out of the box 3880 maint. cart weighs 186.67g so figure 1g/ml of waste since it's mostly water.
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A fresh out of the box 3880 maint. cart weighs 186.67g so figure 1g/ml of waste since it's mostly water.
Very clever; so weigh it before and after initial charge up to estimate the volume of waste. Specific gravity wouldn't be quite the same as water, but probably close enough to provide a useful indication.
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I think the 1g/ml estimate is close enough for any government contract ;)
I read somewhere it's ever so slightly > 1.0 such that even if it's 1.1, that's at most a 10% error
in the final calculation which again, is within any reasonable margin.
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Totally.