Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Neil Williams on June 27, 2015, 02:06:27 pm
-
Just received an email from Leica Mayfair saying the new 007 has been pushed back to the end of October....................... This is really going to test my patience :( :(
-
Wow, that's a real bummer!
I've tested the S twice now, and both times came away wanting to buy one – I loved the body and lenses – but had doubts about (only) two things, the 3x2 ratio sensor and the lowish pixel count for the money. (An H5D-40 and 80mm lens can be bought for just under half of the cost of a S without lens now, for example.) If one or both of these things were different, I would probably be shooting an S now instead of waiting to receive a Credo 60. I guess I'm saying this because it's a long time now since Leica announced the camera and in the meantime the sensor, considering how much the body costs, is starting to look old before its time. Does anyone think the release might be pushed back due to a rethink of the resolution or some specs of the camera?
Again, I truly think the S a brilliant platform and wish it every success. I just wonder if Leica have misjudged the market a littlebit, especially the potential for landscape and fine art photographers who'd love the robust camera and amazing optics, but desire higher resolution.
(This has most probably been discussed to death already, sorry! Just thought I'd write it over my morning coffee.)
-
Wow, that's a real bummer!
I've tested the S twice now, and both times came away wanting to buy one – I loved the body and lenses – but had doubts about (only) two things, the 3x2 ratio sensor and the lowish pixel count for the money. (An H5D-40 and 80mm lens can be bought for just under half of the cost of a S without lens now, for example.) If one or both of these things were different, I would probably be shooting an S now instead of waiting to receive a Credo 60. I guess I'm saying this because it's a long time now since Leica announced the camera and in the meantime the sensor, considering how much the body costs, is starting to look old before its time. Does anyone think the release might be pushed back due to a rethink of the resolution or some specs of the camera?
Again, I truly think the S a brilliant platform and wish it every success. I just wonder if Leica have misjudged the market a littlebit, especially the potential for landscape and fine art photographers who'd love the robust camera and amazing optics, but desire higher resolution.
(This has most probably been discussed to death already, sorry! Just thought I'd write it over my morning coffee.)
I wouldn't care much about the pixel count... In fact, I do find it "perfect" for the sensor size and all one would ever need for resolution... But I do think that Leica will not bring the sensor out unless it is better than Sony's respective CMos one... In fact I had a thread started about Leica delaying the S007 for this reason about a couple of months ago... and I had the (usual) trolls all over me... I don't think it will be available till the end of the year... They don't want a "competitor" with this CMos sensor... They want to wipe the competition market off... They want the camera sold to all world-class wedding photographers, to all studio fashion pros and to all fan boys alike... I bet you my hat that they co-develop a larger size sensor to replace the CCD sensor used on the Sinarbacks currently...
-
I wouldn't care much about the pixel count... In fact, I do find it "perfect" for the sensor size and all one would ever need for resolution... But I do think that Leica will not bring the sensor out unless it is better than Sony's respective CMos one... In fact I had a thread started about Leica delaying the S007 for this reason about a couple of months ago... and I had the (usual) trolls all over me... I don't think it will be available till the end of the year... They don't want a "competitor" with this CMos sensor... They want to wipe the competition market off... They want the camera sold to all world-class wedding photographers, to all studio fashion pros and to all fan boys alike... I bet you my hat that they co-develop a larger size sensor to replace the CCD sensor used on the Sinarbacks currently...
If it is the family sensor of the M240, scaled up, then it is a POS machine vision sensor, with terrible fixed pattern noise that is dealt with by firmware. The Sony sensors are photo sensors.
Edmund
-
I guess it's just that I don't understand the logic of announcing and promoting a new camera at a major consumer event, only to wait over one year to sell it. Leica's argument for staying with the same pixel count seems justified on technical grounds – i.e. "we are upscaling our current technology" – but not in terms of what the market, in general terms, actually wants, especially for the kind of money they are asking. The M240 sensor isn't exactly known for its class leading performance – I've shot it and thought it pretty good, however – so I'm not sure why anyone thinks, considering they've stated the 007 sensor is based on the same technology, why it'll perform better than the major competition. The Q has thrown up some interesting questions regarding it's overall better performance, but no one to my knowledge has stated it's a CMOSIS sensor of the same type, let alone to be utilised in the S.
As I said before, I really like the S camera and twice came close to buying one, but I don't see the logic in this product roll out, or for that matter the harm in Leica announcing they are rethinking the sensor (or tweaking, or fine tuning x, y, z aspect of performance, or whatever.) I actually think their customers would applaud such openness and "keep the faith" during the ever extending wait.
-
Hi Edmund,
Can you elaborate? My impression is that the M240 sensor was pretty good, which of course doesn't rule out that fixed patter noise is hig.
Best regards
Erik
If it is the family sensor of the M240, scaled up, then it is a POS machine vision sensor, with terrible fixed pattern noise that is dealt with by firmware. The Sony sensors are photo sensors.
Edmund
-
Hi,
Keep in mind that everyone was releasing MFD using the Sony sensor, Pentax, Phase, Hasselblad and Leaf. Could just have been a quick "Me too!" announcement. But I can see it can cause frustration.
Best regards
Erik
I guess it's just that I don't understand the logic of announcing and promoting a new camera at a major consumer event, only to wait over one year to sell it. Leica's argument for staying with the same pixel count seems justified on technical grounds – i.e. "we are upscaling our current technology" – but not in terms of what the market, in general terms, actually wants, especially for the kind of money they are asking. The M240 sensor isn't exactly known for its class leading performance – I've shot it and thought it pretty good, however – so I'm not sure why anyone thinks, considering they've stated the 007 sensor is based on the same technology, why it'll perform better than the major competition. The Q has thrown up some interesting questions regarding it's overall better performance, but no one to my knowledge has stated it's a CMOSIS sensor of the same type, let alone to be utilised in the S.
As I said before, I really like the S camera and twice came close to buying one, but I don't see the logic in this product roll out, or for that matter the harm in Leica announcing they are rethinking the sensor (or tweaking, or fine tuning x, y, z aspect of performance, or whatever.) I actually think their customers would applaud such openness and "keep the faith" during the ever extending wait.
-
Hi Edmund,
Can you elaborate? My impression is that the M240 sensor was pretty good, which of course doesn't rule out that fixed patter noise is hig.
Best regards
Erik
Hi,
In terms of dynamic range: the M240 has severe green color cast in the shadow, making its dynamic range hardly more useful than Canon or CCD digital backs. The Leica Q has an improvement on this and the shadow stays very neutral:
(https://1xzpta.dm2302.livefilestore.com/y2pR5sIYadMKzY2-U_x7Rz-cxl2ee0mctssPI4rzrDk0HBGXrFPmYWGqMrYbTogxFtyXAoa7jugvGpxz-xfjDMXNRC6-MeY29hQsmdxylglCgvnwEszJ41KlxTrb-Ca0gseRI8aLVlNAtziJ2ta6QIXi2EfKaPR0gBuLi4hT5fgV7M/247.JPG?psid=1)
However, the Leica Q is still far behind the game of an entry level Sony CMOS sensor that became popular 3 years ago (IMX128):
(https://1xzpta.dm2302.livefilestore.com/y2pXljD5FVNa1P0psACwJK_IF-WuCXRflhJQBEZwWJPWagvSYnUaWIfPhPTe3iZjjVylUqQwB_rlV0b5xW84_DN6j3EEWmvyYr5HQirb-W3Q4Zh3WRcZpm_Y_1PMX_A3Pw2nLzpicXSZnpDOR8nCSf5FkSIhWZkQdJXM-4MUQwbuVY/13.JPG?psid=1)
In terms of low light high ISO performance, the Leica Q is still way behind the Nikon D810A, wasting the potential of the optics of the Leica Q for shooting the Milky Way:
(https://1xzpta.dm2302.livefilestore.com/y2p-VGml-_e-dtoKCMIDoR1Ev6GlWBbyEsIiTQpHA-CmOoj2nc4K05Hc2JHQnpaocCPlCdSBflLI7FoZ5tN5annKsTcnjcSa_ePemIsWVPExcYmldhvqH_Ziy2_qzRbpK0CDdsrP-W1RIhdC3IFsEmWeSSU2I6w4fW3xVU6pj3Cy_c/250.JPG?psid=1)
It is annoying that the Leica Q will not let you expose longer than 4 seconds at ISO 6400. The internal darkframe is also mandatory. All this is way far behind the games of Sony CMOS sensors.
After all these tests, I see no good chance for the S Typ 007 to remain competitive against the Sony sensors. In terms of absolute performance, if the Leica S Typ 007 is an enlarged version of the M240 without further tweaks/improvements, then a Sony A7R-II equipped with Otus'es could theoretically destroy a Leica S 007 for perceived sharpness, degree of bokehliciousness, dynamic range and low light high ISO. (Sorry but cruel words)
-
The Italians create the design, the Swiss handle the financing, the Germans take care of the engineering that's the way it's been for years. Until you need software development, throw that into the mix and Leica has to outsource. The machines aren't of any use unless they know how to dance! Maybe in house Leica firmware team could right the ship and set a course ahead of the competition for once?
-
Voidshatter, I cannot see the pix in your post :(
Edmund
-
Just received an email from Leica Mayfair saying the new 007 has been pushed back to the end of October....................... This is really going to test my patience :( :(
Better to get something out right a bit later than wrong early.
Cheers,
Bernard
-
Better to get something out right a bit later than wrong early.
Cheers,
Bernard
I thought you believed in the japanese policy of release early, update often.
Responses to a sh*tty product give better indications of what is needed than market research :)
Edmund
-
This is true, but it's been a heck of a long time in the making. Personally, I think it rather foolish to show ones hand too early.
Better to get something out right a bit later than wrong early.
Cheers,
Bernard
-
I thought you believed in the japanese policy of release early, update often.
Responses to a sh*tty product give better indications of what is needed than market research :)
I see more their release policy as being focused on long term total profit maximization.
Of course it requires the ability to assess objectively the weaknesses but also the strengths of your competition relative to what a majority of targetted buyers want.
A chef's most important skill is to know what is good. ;)
Cheers,
Bernard
-
Talked to a Leica dealer in the US last week who said they were struggling with the video. I'd rather have S-E without video at a decent entry price than the full package, at least if the camera (without video) is more or less ready.
-
I understand Leica's reluctance. They were traumatized when the initial M8 was launched and to their horror, thye were saddled with the IR issue. This was not only embarrassing but costly.
I am sure the typ 007 will impress the critics/sceptics and delight the photographers!
Albert
-
I see more their release policy as being focused on long term total profit maximization.
Of course it requires the ability to assess objectively the weaknesses but also the strengths of your competition relative to what a majority of targetted buyers want.
A chef's most important skill is to know what is good. ;)
Cheers,
Bernard
And to serve while it's hot!
Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
-
Seeing as the S is meant to be more of a hand-held camera, more than pixels or things like that I'd like to see Leica implement 5-axis IBIS.
I've mentioned this here before, but Leica really needs to re-evaluate what features a premium camera at this price point needs to be competitive. I've used the S006 on a couple of occasions and it was amazingly built and intuitive to use, but I think such niceties go only so far when modern cameras now offer so much more. Yes, you get to use the nice Leica S lenses and have the option of adaptability, but those aren't features of the camera itself, you're simply paying a tax to get to them. Yes, you can take still a nice photo with reduced features, but that's dodging the question; my Canon system took good photos too, but I switched to MF because I didn't want to stop at just "good".
My Pentax system already paid for itself... serve them while they're hot indeed.
-
Hmmmmmm.
Steve how long have people waited for a new Phase or Mamiya body, or how long did it take to get a screen that didn't look like a flip phone (come on tell the truth, I bet phase bought those old P+ screens from motorola razers that didn't sell . . . let's hear the real real) and what's the reason a P back won't work on the new body?
Don't make me call Doug, cause I'm sure he has a new article sitting on his laptop ready to go.
IMO
BC
Of course, but I think you misunderstood my post - my sentiment was meant in general, not specifically toward Leica. I thought Bernhard made a good point, I simply added to it. Serve the product when it is optimal (right temperature) and when things are "hot". Were that it was so....
Although since you brought it up, while everyone was aware a new camera was in the works from Phase One, they did not make any formal announcement or launch until this month, and product is now shipping. That's not a minor point. I feel that product delivery times from formal announcements should be relatively quick. I'm not happy it will be at least a year after the Leica S announcement before it ships. It makes me question why in the world they would announce before they were close to feeling good about an imminent delivery date.
Product delays are a time honored tradition in the photo world. Just don't make a big announcement party, with an estimated ship date of 6 months, and then still not ship even 6 months after that. From a dealer's perspective, that's the issue.
Steve Hendrix
-
On set I always use my 5D3. Inside the blimb. It is reliable as can be and the AF works well in almost any light. Puts beans on the table. :)
...there is a RED somewhere in there :P
-
Steve,
I'm yanking your cable release.
I agree, the thing is we're all use to it.
If I had a greek euro for everytime somebody announced something and then changed it, delayed it, recalled it, re firmwared it, or just dropped the whole idea, I could buy Denmark.
Once again we all open the box, the software, plug something in and our butt tightens, hoping it does what we need, but then again if it doesn't we call someone and they say, "oh it's not suppose to do that but we'll look into it".
I think it's cool Phase One is shipping their camera, uncool that it took so long, but if it works, then great . . . more than great.
And though this will send this forum into spasms, it doesn't matter to me.
This is one of the cameras that puts beans on my table today.
(http://www.russellrutherford.com/red_camera_puts_beans_on_the_table.jpg)
Leica elegant huh?
IMO
BC
Yeah, I know. And I take great pains, well, let's say I make it a point, to not become a walking billboard for the products I sell and support. I want my record to show that I provided accurate, factual information about the products that photographers might potentially spend not an insignificant amount of currency on , sometimes mixed with a dash (if we're talking in-the-kitchen metaphors), of industry perspective from all sides of the aisle.
And you do the same! The difference is that you make and post those nice pretty pictures.
Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
-
Hi,
I would say that it is nice to hear that at least some MFD dealers have some good sense for humour.
Now, seriously, I have noticed that there is a lot of good information coming from CI in general and the Steve was always careful about giving adequate information.
Regards Leica announcing the type 007 prematurely, I can see why they did it, as CMOS announcements were almost raining from heaven last year. I would also assume they were eager to present at Photokina, which is a biannual event in Germany.
BC's latest comments really indicate that times are changing. New gear is becoming available that can do the job. A good example is the Canon 5D#, not so long ago, professional gear was the Canon 1D# (and 1D#s), but "pros" are happily shooting away with Canon 5DIII and soon enough with 5DS. Meanwhile the needs of pros also shifted, it seems motion plays a greater role now than say five years ago. Gear that can do both still and motion well enough may obviously be attractive, as it is much easier to maintain and transport a single setup than a dual setup.
Also, economy is both weak and shaky, which I would guess means more work for less money and the need to have a cost effective workflow for those who earn their living making pictures. Some of BC's (and CB's) comments may reflect on that.
Best regards
Erik
Yeah, I know. And I take great pains, well, let's say I make it a point, to not become a walking billboard for the products I sell and support. I want my record to show that I provided accurate, factual information about the products that photographers might potentially spend not an insignificant amount of currency on , sometimes mixed with a dash (if we're talking in-the-kitchen metaphors), of industry perspective from all sides of the aisle.
And you do the same! The difference is that you make and post those nice pretty pictures.
Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
-
Hi BC,
Thanks for putting thinks straight.
I got the impression from your previous writings that you sort of have retired the RED, was very happy with Panasonic GH3 for both stills and motion.
I would add that the Leica S makes a lot of sense to me, specially as it can be used with a lot of different lenses. On the other hand I want live view and the camera is clearly outside my economic reach. But, I would not buy any more camera that doesn't have live view. A correctly implemented live view with freely selectable magnified area for focusing is the most important feature I see, for my needs.
Best regards
Erik
Not exactly as I bought my three REDs when the economy had tanked, though our business (luckily was doing ok).
I bought the REDs because I bought a 5d2 or 3 (don't remember) spent an extra 5 grand on it, looked through it with all that stuff hanging off and thought, that's not a movie camera, called RED and the rest is recent history.
The 5d2 BTW: does nice lifestyle video but it has bad rolling shutter, aliases, makes viewing a drag and is limited on sound recording, blah blah blah.
So it's not just the economy, because even if you shoot stills with a 5d whatever your not going to use the same camera, maybe not the same lens group anyway.
There is no one anything way in this business, even per client, we all have our way, find our own niche and most professionals invest and work damn hard (in all business, not just the making little pictures business).
But the REDs made sense at the time and still do for me because they are not outdated, they shoot pretty 4k and once again for me have been profitable and zero problems, except their lcd viewfinder, which they fixed for $300 which has to be a low cost record for RED.
Also at the time you gotta remember film movie cameras (not video) cost $200,000 so Mr. Jannard threw a wrench in the movie camera making biz. (at least then).
and BTW 2: Canon is getting away from the one camera does everything. For the 5d crowd they sell you a $6,000 2k C100, a $13,000 4k C300 or probable soon a $22,000 5 or 6k C500, but no more $3,000 movie cameras, though they'll sell video cameras at that price.
IMO
BC