Gaza's on-going Palestinian civilians Killing

[jjj]

To be fair, it wasn't the British who thought it a good idea to hand over another people's country to a third party, that was the United Nations. In addition, the terrorist group known as the Stern Gang, murdered British troops, murdered a British government minister and even asked for assistance from the Nazis (there's irony for you), and then Stalin, whilst the Irgun engaged in a number of tit-for-tat killings against Arabs, a number of bombings against Arab targets (markets were a favourite), & bombed the King David Hotel, killing 91 people. On top of that, they also targeted British service personnel. So I don't think you can blame the British for Israel's actions right now. It does however make their complaints of Palestinian terrorism just a bit hypocritical.

Terrorists are freedom fighters who haven't yet won their battle or whose political agenda doesn't suit western policies. - That's how it tends to work.

There was an interesting Channel 4 drama The Promise, set in both present day Israel and during the transition period which illustrated how nothing is simply black and white.

[jjj]

It's literally a crime to violate a truce, and since it happened during a war it's a war crime.

War Crimes as you well know means something quite different from what you suggest. War crimes are atrocities that go way beyond what is needed to fight your position.
By your odd definition, shooting anyone during a war is a crime as killing people is illegal and therefore a war crime too.

[jjj]

Also, why is it that Hamas 'seize' or 'kidnap' Israeli troops, when usually enemy soldiers taken into custody are referred to as 'captured' and are thus POWs? Are Hamas fighters ever 'kidnapped' by the IDF? The language in news reports & that used by politicians, seems to cloud the issue. The first casualty of war it truth.

See this article for how Israel learnt from a US Republican spin doctor on how to win the media war.

[jjj]

There is no genocide. They are Arabs. There has never been a country or race of Palestine any more than a country or race of  Judea.

I guess you aren't ever troubled by pesky things like facts.

I have no sympathy  for, and in fact serious derision towards folks who whimper on and on about the deaths of  children in Gaza. It's the only positive press Hamas is generating and they know it.  Who has children in a war zone that they themselves prolong year after year?  I would not have a dog, let alone children under the circumstances in Gaza.  Children are a choice. Just as storing  bombs in homes and tunnel entrances in schools are choices. Using children to generate sympathy is disgusting. Putting the children in the position in the first place is an abomination.

Can't work out if you are very naive or simply a deeply unpleasant human being.

[mezzoduomo]

So Hamas broke the ceasefire by capturing an Israeli soldier, which thus justified Israel in bombing & shelling Gaza again, killing more civilians. Only now the Israelis are saying that Lt. Hadar Goldin was actually killed in combat before the ceasefire. Which of course means that Hamas didn't breach the ceasefire, Israel did, and so Israel is guilty of a warcrime. Presumably. Unless these things only apply to one party. I think we should be told.

The ceasefire was broken by a suicide bomb that killed 2.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/israel-hamas-agree-to-72-hour-humanitarian-cease-fire/2014/08/01/059f1ff8-194e-11e4-9e3b-7f2f110c6265_story.html

[PeterAit]

The people of Gaza overwhelmingly  still support Hamas and their mission of terror ...

Utter nonsense. You do know about Google, don't you? Just as one example, here's a quote from a July 15 policy paper by The Washington Institute:

"A recent, credible poll shows that most Gazans oppose Hamas policies and leaders alike, and favor a ceasefire with Israel."

Just because you want something to be true to help you blame the victims does not make it true.

[Chairman Bill]

I heard a news report from Israeli sources saying that remains found suggested Goldin never was captured but died in combat. Seems they were moving into Palestinian lines at the time. Now, troop movement into enemy territory would be a breach of a ceasefire, so either Israel broke it, or it happened prior to the ceasefire.

[ripgriffith]

I guess you aren't ever troubled by pesky things like facts.
Can't work out if you are very naive or simply a deeply unpleasant human being.

I think the latter, clearly.

[BernardLanguillier]

Thanks for illustrating my point. I was pretty sure one or another hysterical poster would do that.

Russ,

For what it is worth, repeatedly calling hysterical pretty much everybody else in this thread stressing obvious facts won't help convince them that you are right on this topic.

Btw, it seems pretty certain by now that Hamas didn't "kidnap" any Israeli soldier during the ceasefire.

Since you have apparently chosen to look at this situation as a regular armed conflict between 2 parties, and to only judge their morality by their adherence to the rules of war, would you mind sharing your views on the civilian casualties that have occurred so far?

Thank you.

Cheers,
Bernard

[RSL]

. . . obvious facts. . ?

Which obvious facts? I don't see many "facts" in this thread, and the ones I do see are a long way from "obvious."

Since you have apparently chosen to look at this situation as a regular armed conflict between 2 parties, and to only judge their morality by their adherence to the rules of war, would you mind sharing your views on the civilian casualties that have occurred so far?

My views: The civilian casualties are almost entirely the responsibility of Hamas. How the hell do you think you can destroy rocket launchers, munitions storage sites, etc., without damaging and killing civilians if the people you're fighting deliberately locate those facilities in the middle of populated areas, schools, hospitals, etc.?

When somebody attacks you you have two choices: fight or surrender. Surrender for Israel in this situation isn't the same thing as surrender was for the French in WW II. An Israeli surrender would mean the destruction of Israel and the slaughter of its people. If I were in Israel's situation I'd fight, and civilians be damned. The Israelis have done everything in their power to avoid killing civilians and Hamas has done everything in their power to insure their civilians will be killed. There's an obvious fact for you.

[Chris_Brown]

[Chairman Bill]

My views: The civilian casualties are almost entirely the responsibility of Hamas. How the hell do you think you can destroy rocket launchers, munitions storage sites, etc., without damaging and killing civilians if the people you're fighting deliberately locate those facilities in the middle of populated areas, schools, hospitals, etc.?

You move ground troops in to clear those areas. I know it's generally accepted that the IDF is a hugely professional force, but the reality is that it's fourth-rate at best. US, Aussie, French, British and other forces faced similar issues in Iraq, and managed to deal with the problem with far less loss of civilian life. Frankly the Israelis simply don't give a shit.

The Israelis have done everything in their power to avoid killing civilians and Hamas has done everything in their power to insure their civilians will be killed. There's an obvious fact for you.

Except it's not actually an obvious fact, but let's not let that fact get in the way of your assertion of facts.

[RSL]

You move ground troops in to clear those areas. I know it's generally accepted that the IDF is a hugely professional force, but the reality is that it's fourth-rate at best. US, Aussie, French, British and other forces faced similar issues in Iraq, and managed to deal with the problem with far less loss of civilian life. Frankly the Israelis simply don't give a shit.

Bullshit, Bill. I was commander of our remaining radar sites and other command and control facilities in Southeast Asia during the Yom Kippur war in 1973. Our politicized heads were doing a crappy job of the war in Cambodia, and I remember posters stuck on walls with a picture of Moshe Dyan with his eye-patch and the phrase "Hire the handicapped" under his picture. Dyan was winning the Israelis' war and we were screwing around. I guess the hysterics in this thread have forgotten, or more probably never knew, the number of times Israel's been attacked without warning by their "neighbors." The Israeli military leaders still are some of the best in the world.

Except it's not actually an obvious fact, but let's not let that fact get in the way of your assertion of facts.

As Casey said, you could look it up.

[Chairman Bill]

1973. Forty years ago. Last time the IDF invaded Lebanon they had their collective arse handed to them.They are no longer up to the job.

[RSL]

Lebanon was a mistake, but don't jump to any unwarranted conclusions.

[Manoli]

Thanks for illustrating my point.

On the contrary, 'tis I who should thank YOU for so succinctly making mine:

If I were in Israel's situation I'd fight, and civilians be damned.

[Manoli]

The Israelis have done everything in their power to avoid killing civilians and Hamas has done everything in their power to insure their civilians will be killed. There's an obvious fact for you.

I think you need to understand the difference between an opinion and a fact. There is a difference, look it up in the dictionary.

[jjj]

The Israelis have done everything in their power to avoid killing civilians and Hamas has done everything in their power to insure their civilians will be killed. There's an obvious fact for you.

No that's simply your opinion and one that bears no relation to reality.
A fact would be something like as of a few days back - 3 civilians and 56 soldiers had been killed by Hamas, whilst 1400+ people killed by Israel. Mostly civilians and including an awful lot of children.

My views: The civilian casualties are almost entirely the responsibility of Hamas. How the hell do you think you can destroy rocket launchers, munitions storage sites, etc., without damaging and killing civilians if the people you're fighting deliberately locate those facilities in the middle of populated areas, schools, hospitals, etc.?

Uh, The Gaza Strip is one of the most densely populated areas in the world. So any firing anything into that region is extremely likely to hit civilians regardless of where things are stored.
Some years back I met a member of the IRA terrorist group, who for several decades bombed and murdered British civilians and your arguments sound awfully like his. The IRA murderers were also unsurprisingly supported by the US. By sheer coincidence, the very same week I then spent time with a UK soldier who served there during the most contentious period. He admitted that they did bad things unlike the mendacious IRA hunger striker.

[BernardLanguillier]

When somebody attacks you you have two choices: fight or surrender. Surrender for Israel in this situation isn't the same thing as surrender was for the French in WW II. An Israeli surrender would mean the destruction of Israel and the slaughter of its people. If I were in Israel's situation I'd fight, and civilians be damned.

Interesting way to look at things really.

Going back to the analogy you have proposed, should Hamas not be compared to the French resistants opposing the German invader? Sure enough, the French resistants were called terrorists by the Germans back then (I am not French by the way).

Resistants during WWII, however heroic their actions were, hardly made a dent in the German occupation forces. It took an external attack by the US to change the balance power, an attack similar to the one Irak may have considered conducting before their were preemptively taken out by the US.

Similarly, Hamas is in no way a serious threat to the state of Israel, they are only a vague threat to continued expansion of theft of Palestinian soil. As a military expert with extended field experience, would you not agree with my assessment regarding the scale of the threat?

You appear to think that defending oneself when under attack is a natural right, do you not? Would you not agree then that the actions of Israel in Gaza these past 10 years can objectively been seen as attacks on Palestinian soil and properties? At least the UN, whose legality is hopefully not questioned, seems to think so.

The Israelis have done everything in their power to avoid killing civilians and Hamas has done everything in their power to insure their civilians will be killed. There's an obvious fact for you.

Your theory doesn't seem to resist for long when you look at the examples several posters have proposed for your review earlier in this thread. There are clearly some cases having resulted in the death of many civilians where no effort whatsoever seems to have been done. The example of the 4 kids on the beach is pretty telling, is it not?

Do you at least agree that those happened or have they been invented/highlighted by hysterical enemies of Israel attempting to tarnish the image of the country and its army?

If you agree that those incidents did happen, how do you fit those in your views of the situation? Are those just individuals accidents resulting from some Tsahal guys having the finger a bit too reactive in a state of tension? Should those be seen as easily forgivable in the present context?

I'll tell you my views on this. I have no particular feelings for or against Israel, if anything I have a huge amount of sympathy for what Israel underwent in the past. But, looking objectively at this, it seems difficult to dispute that they have been acting as the bad guys for many years towards Palestinians in Gaza and elsewhere. They have transformed into the invader and some of their actions feel awfully similar to what themselves went through in the past.

So I don't believe that it helps the historical cause of Israel not to condemn what has to be condemned. I don't believe that your apparent total denial of any wrong doing on their side helps them. On the contrary. It is a mistake to think that strength and power have been enough to make Israel into what it is today. A lot results from the sympathy the world has had for them. This sympathy is being eaten away quickly and people defending Israel against reasonable accusations are in fact contributing to this, whether you realize it or not. In my book, the views you are defending here contribute to generating hatred against Israel more than anything else.

This will be my final contribution to this thread.

Cheers,
Bernard

[RSL]

Have your sources for these stories also explained that the moon is made of green cheese? The attempts by the Israelis to avoid civilian casualties are well documented.