"Nikon D800 / D800E First Comparison"

[MatthewCromer]

Well, it was not to start a discussion on different cameras, but simply a question about the D800.

The Canon 5D mkII and mkIII have the ability to shoot without any physical movement, so it's not needed to go to mirrorless to get that. The Canon also has live histogram and the SLT is a crop sensor and 24MP.

I was referring to the upcoming FF 36MP Sony, not the current APS 24MP Sony SLT models.

The Nikon does not offer Electronic First Curtain Shutter as far as I can determine from googling.  That is unfortunate, as it makes a big difference with long lenses.

Regarding the APS Alpha 65 and 77 -- both offer IQ comparable to the 5D3 at low ISOs with a bit more DR for the 77 than the 5D3 (and no shadow banding problems).

SLT definitely offers stability advantages for anyone who ever shoots handheld.  I am definitely looking forward to playing with the new Sony Alpha.

[Hans Kruse]

I was referring to the upcoming FF 36MP Sony, not the current APS 24MP Sony SLT models.

The Nikon does not offer Electronic First Curtain Shutter as far as I can determine from googling.  That is unfortunate, as it makes a big difference with long lenses.

Regarding the APS Alpha 65 and 77 -- both offer IQ comparable to the 5D3 at low ISOs with a bit more DR for the 77 than the 5D3 (and no shadow banding problems).

SLT definitely offers stability advantages for anyone who ever shoots handheld.  I am definitely looking forward to playing with the new Sony Alpha.

I haven't seen an announcement from Sony about a full frame (36MP) SLT model or even a successor the DSLR models.

I don't think the APS-C models offer similar IQ (well anything can be compared ) as the full frame 5D mkIII. I haven't so far seen an APS-C sensor providing the same IQ as a full frame sensor with similar amounts of pixels. 2,25 to 2,6 times more are of glass does help the system MTF one should think.

I do agree that a mirrorless system will have advantages for shooting hand held where the mirror slap causes vibrations.

[BJL]

The Canon 5D mkII and mkIII have the ability to shoot without any physical movement ...

How do they do that? No mirror movement maybe, but I think there is still shutter movement, because AFAIK, none of the DSLR sensors so far has a global electronic shutter for stills. So I would think it is a matter of _less_ physical movement, in the same way as with a rangefinder camera.

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

I have both the Alpha 77 SLT and the Alpha 900, the SLT is APS-C and the Alpha 900 is FF. Both are 24 MP. My feeling so far is that the SLT is a pretty fair match for the Alpha 900, but much more demanding on lenses. I have not done any "scientific testing", though.

The SLT has some advantage in better DoF at equal aperture and live view AF is a real benefit. Right now I use the SLT for tele work, for normal work, either does fine. The Alpha 900 has better viewfinder but lacks live view. The Alpha has a virtual horizon I miss on the Alpha 900.

As is now, I would not buy an Alpha 99 with 24 MP, as it would offer little benefit over the combo I have. An Alpha 99 with 36 MP would be much more interesting. I would also say that user interface is important for me. So would the Alpha 99 arrive with 24MP and a really excellent UI, I may buy it anyway.

Best regards
Erik

[Hans Kruse]

How do they do that? No mirror movement maybe, but I think there is still shutter movement, because AFAIK, none of the DSLR sensors so far has a global electronic shutter for stills. So I would think it is a matter of _less_ physical movement, in the same way as with a rangefinder camera.

Yes, the 5D mkII, 5D mkIII and 7D (and some other Canon cameras) has electronic first curtain in live view, so no shutter movement as I said. They do an electronic "reset" of the sensor to start the exposure.

[BJL]

Yes, the 5D mkII, 5D mkIII and 7D (and some other Canon cameras) has electronic first curtain in live view, so no shutter movement as I said. They do an electronic "reset" of the sensor to start the exposure.

Thanks; so no that I bothered to read up on it, this reduces the mechanical movement to that of the second curtain (the one that ends exposure at each part of the sensor) with the start of the exposure done electronically by resetting the photosites in an incremental sweep across the sensor, rather than by incrementally starting exposure with the mechanical motion of the first curtain.

[Hans Kruse]

Thanks; so no that I bothered to read up on it, this reduces the mechanical movement to that of the second curtain (the one that ends exposure at each part of the sensor) with the start of the exposure done electronically by resetting the photosites in an incremental sweep across the sensor, rather than by incrementally starting exposure with the mechanical motion of the first curtain.

Yes, the exposure is ended by the mechanical shutter.

It would be interesting if any of the D800 reviewers and owners would do a simple test to check if it use the mechanical shutter to start the exposure.

The test is very simple. Use low ISO in a situation where the exposure time would be long, say 10 seconds, so it is easy to hear if there is a mechanical movement at all to start the exposure.

[Stephen Starkman]

Yes, the exposure is ended by the mechanical shutter.

It would be interesting if any of the D800 reviewers and owners would do a simple test to check if it use the mechanical shutter to start the exposure.

The test is very simple. Use low ISO in a situation where the exposure time would be long, say 10 seconds, so it is easy to hear if there is a mechanical movement at all to start the exposure.

Hans, yes, it does use the mechanical shutter to begin an exposure in LV (tested by setting MUP, LV and triggering the shutter).

[Hans Kruse]

Hans, yes, it does use the mechanical shutter to begin an exposure in LV (tested by setting MUP, LV and triggering the shutter).

Thanks and that is disappointing. I wonder why this is, since the benefit for shooting on slow shutter speeds on a tripod is so obvious a help for a camera with a high resolution as the D800.

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

Thanks and that is disappointing. I wonder why this is, since the benefit for shooting on slow shutter speeds on a tripod is so obvious a help for a camera with a high resolution as the D800.

Hi Hans,

Probably because the sensor benefits from being reset in total darkness, with the shutter curtains closed. Besides, although I know how critical camera shake is with long FL lenses (and with > 1:1 macro!), the fact that the camera still shakes shows that the support is not adequate enough, unfortunately.

Cheers,
Bart

[hjulenissen]

Besides, although I know how critical camera shake is with long FL lenses (and with > 1:1 macro!), the fact that the camera still shakes shows that the support is not adequate enough, unfortunately.

Cheers,
Bart

So how heavy/rigid an object (stand) do you have to fix the camera to in order to make the acceleration of mechanical parts not move/rotate the camera significantly compared to one sensel (or an equivalent fraction of a degree for some focal length)?

-h

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

So how heavy/rigid an object (stand) do you have to fix the camera to in order to make the acceleration of mechanical parts not move/rotate the camera significantly compared to one sensel (or an equivalent fraction of a degree for some focal length)?

Hi h,

That depends on how the lens camera is mounted. When the support is positioned closely beneath the center of gravity it can be lighter, but if not only inertia plays a role but vibration (e.g. wind or trafic) as well, then carbon fiber or wood have better damping characteristics.

There is a reason why stuff like this is sold. For really critical situations 2 tripods can be used, one for the camera body and one for the lens.

The need for such drastic measures can be determined by shooting the stationary laser dot projected by a separated laser level, or pen. Or one can tie it to the lens and visually inspect how much the dot dances when the tripod or the camera is touched/tapped.

Cheers,
Bart
 

[marcmccalmont]

A couple of test shots from my balcony, D800E, tripod, hanging bag, liveview and cable release. Capture 1 highlight slider 99% focus fixer .7 f4.5
first @50mm f4.5 Leica 28-90 R
second @270mm f4.5 Leica 270 4.0 R
third and fourth 100% crops @ 270mm f4.5
Wow!
Marc

The posterizing is a product of downloading to the LL server the jpegs looked clean on my screen!