Epson 7900 from the inside - out

[designpartners]

I got a epson loyalty discount (I think €800 or something like that) when I bought it and then picked up the extended warranty 10 months later for €50..

James

[Peter Le]

  Eric, and fellow forum members,
  I sincerely apologize to all of you who I may have offended with my uncalled for remarks pertaining to costs of ownership and taking business away from legitimate businesses.
   I was reacting to a personal situation that arose in my business causing me a very bad day,which should not have carried over to this thread.
I have removed my uncalled for post,and ask that you forgive me for my poorly thought out comments.


David
 
   

         No problem here........it is something I all to often do myself.........Peter

[chaddro]

Speaking of BAD DAYS, I'm having one of those myself with my 9890....

First observation, don't turn your printer off if you are low on ink as this seemingly fudges something up in the printer. Well, it did for me.

Never mind that I had a perfectly fine nozzle check before hand (and for several weeks). But after powering down the printer I suddenly have 4 channels drop completely out! WTF??? Oh, and not channels that were even low! A simple pairs clean would not bring them back either, I had to do several before deciding to do a "powerful" pairs clean. Still not a clean nozzle check either.

And then to really kick me in the nutz, I have TWO bad brand now 700ml cartridges. The LLK won't recognize for shatz, and the LC must have an air leak because when I put it in, one of the pressurizing pumps runs constantly!

A whole freaking Sunday afternoon lost! BAH!

[kevk]

Ah, no, not cheaper in Australia.  So the price in Australia for a 7900 is twice what we pay, not half as much.  My condolences.  Same question though in my mind.  Why such a gigantic price difference? 

I assume it would be pinned on being a smaller market (there are only about 22 mega people here rather than 313 in USA), therefore higher per sale overheads, etc, etc.

But of course if the printers cost less then more people (like me) would buy one!
(Instead, I get my prints done by a company with 7900 and 9900 and provide ICCs for a number of papers.)

Kevin

[enduser]

A bit off topic, (but there are now "topics-within-topics" on this thread), but the Aussie market is moving towards US pricing in many ways as a reaction to on-line buying.  For example, buying a Canon SLR as little more money here than in the US as Aussie wholesalers and retailers bring their prices down to keep their market share.  It's a huge topic here these days and many outlets here are rushing to get their on-line presence up-to-date.

I've been in retailing for many years at research level for big companies and a buyer for small sport goods businesses.  It was always the case that where buyers met wholesalers and importers at trade shows, the buyers drove economy type cars, the importers and wholesalers drove Mercs and BMWs.  So there's a bit of fat still left to extract from the importers etc.  A Canon 6300 is $5,600 in Oz and often in the high $2,000s in the US.  I can freight one here for about $500.  I'm sure Canon freights for less from Japan. Expect prices in Oz to go down.  I get my inks from the US at about $85 incl postage, they cost up to $145 here. etc etc.  (Have I reached 100 postings yet?)

[Eric Gulbransen]

Yea I felt that David.  Thanks for the apology.  

It's all good, we all have our days.


rmeyers; sorry I didn't answer you earlier.  Yes, if Vladimir's ultrasonic cleaning does not prove successful we do have more delusion planned for this head.  First Steve wants to soak the head for a solid week, followed by a gentle internal pressure rinse injecting fluid through the head via our syringe method.  Steve still feels confident that these clogs are actually clogs.  

Then, if this printhead STILL shows these concrete clogs, we are planning on sacrificing this head to the mighty printing Gods above.  My genius buddy Steve is actually an engineer.  He's got access to some pretty high tech lab technology where he works.  So yes we WILL be performing an autopsy, we will be taking photos, and we will be sharing our results here on Luminous Landscape.  Our poor 7900 may be one of the worst purchases I have ever made in my life, which pretty well blows, but at the same time due to all that has come to life here in this thread, I don't know, somehow it's alright.  And if we can ALL finally know exactly what's the weak link in this X900 chain, well then it'll be far better than just alright.  

I have made so many phone calls to people so much smarter than I am.  So many emails.  I can't seem to inspire anyone to solve this mystery for us.  So we'll do it ourselves.

[eheffa]

Eric said:
I am an enthusiast.  An amateur photographer.  A starving artist if you will.  This past October I finally decided to get some of my photos printed.  I went to the greatest lab I could find here in the Bay Area.  Amazing place, incredible samples.  It was there that I fell in love with the idea of printing every dam photo I have ever taken.  In the end I could only afford to print twenty.  It cost me fifteen hundred dollars.

I loved the idea of hanging my photos on my walls.  I loved the look of them as well.  But the closer and more frequently I looked at them, I noticed more and more that they just weren't what I created.  "A little too dark, they clipped the whites, maybe not canvas for that one, I wish I made this one bigger" etc. etc.   But the cost I faced for printing more, larger, and on different mediums was quite a daunting expense for something I was simply passionate about.  Something NOT for business.  So I started reading here, on Luminous Landscape, in the printers papers and inks section.  That's how I learned about printing.  That's how I learned about Epson's great Stylus Pro 7900.


I too bought a 7900 for many of the same reasons.

Just prior to Christmas I paid a local Print shop $180- to print an image on Canvas  24 x 36 that I had printed 16 x 24 on my Epson 4800.  My own version (albeit smaller) blew the commercial print out of the water.  It was at that point that I decided that I would get my own 7900 so that I would not have to argue with someone else as to the qualities (or lack thereof) of any particular print and satisfy myself that I was getting the best quality according to my own definition & interpretation of the image.

So far I have not printed as much as I would like but the 7900 I have has been performing well enough.  Any clogs have been pretty easily cleared.  I don't know how long that will last though...

I appreciate this thread  & the video on changing the wiper blade was quite excellent.

Thank you Eric.

[DeanChriss]

So far I have not printed as much as I would like but the 7900 I have has been performing well enough.  Any clogs have been pretty easily cleared.  I don't know how long that will last though...

Including myself, I know 4 people who own 7900s. All are working fine and have never required service. Two are over 3 years old, one is just over 2 years old, and one is less than one year old. This is anecdotal "data" and does not mean there are no problems out there, but it's a pretty safe bet that the vast majority of these machines are doing what they're supposed to do.

[clic]

Dean,


If you are trying to reassure yourself or dispense some feelgood therapy, what you write is perfect.  It is otherwise perfectly useless.  Nobody has ever suggested that there was a pandemic, just that there was a problem affecting a number of users, too many for anybody to feel safe.  I had found that much, and it has been by now corroborated by Jon Cone. 

So if I were you, in order to keep feeling good, I would pray and burn candles all day or abandon myself to whatever voodoo is your karma, because what has happened to many users, could happen to you tomorrow, and that really would be terrible, wouldn't it?

[chaddro]

Sorry to hear that chaddro, been there a couple of times now!  It does sound like air in the lines,and or a pressurization problem as you say due to a bad cart.
I've experienced the same with low carts and bubble sprays also. First of all do not do any more cleaning cycles, let the printer sit for a day.I have had better luck doing a regular complete cleaning, than pairs when this has happened to me.   Even Epson says repeated cleaning will introduce more problems !  Call Epson or whoever you purchased them from, and politely insist on replacement carts if you just installed them.This is not an unheard of issue. If air has been introduced into the lines it may take some printing before the ink flows through the nozzles again.Just print  some office paper don't waste good stuff.
Check your wiper!
 
  Check your carts and see where they were produced.  I am just curious.
Prior to recently, all the carts I received were from Japan, all the new ones are made in Indonesia.

Good luck  

I didn't look at country of origin on the carts, but they are new, dec 2012 and july 2013 expiry dates in the NEW packaging, and I do have the new firmware that was supposed to address this issue. I have not had this bad of an issue with the machine before, so I don't know why it freaked out on me. Waiting over night may help, but not good when you have production to get out.

I guess I'll have to try out new carts when I get down to, oh ... 5%?? ... so I don't get stuck on a weekend.

I'll give Epson a call after work for the new carts. I, so far, have not had any issue with getting replacements. You'd think they would have this fixed by now. TWO bad 700ml cartridges (and I have 4 more unopened waiting for those channels to get low) in one day really is infuriating.

Had to chill out to some Tom Baker era Doctor Who :p

[blpanther]

Chadro, generally epson gives 90 days guarantee for all cartridges bought at any shop (but new ones only not ebay). From my experience, just contact epson, they will give you address and you send them with proof of purchase, few days later brand new ones in the post 

[designpartners]

what you write is perfect.  It is otherwise perfectly useless.  Nobody has ever suggested that there was a pandemic, just that there was a problem affecting a number of users, too many for anybody to feel safe. 

Clic, you found 12... 12 clogs.. granted 12 is a number, but I really feel that you are massively skewing your results and misleading others on the forum. I'm really not arguing that clogs don't happen on the 9900, they do, and that some of them are probably head failures for whatever reason.. BUT.. it's not too many for anybody to feel safe - this is simply scaremongering..

and before you go and rebut any of this statement with your photographic creds - which I'll admit are stunning! and truly, I wish that I will someday come close to your skill, but I fear I never will. It would have been more relevant to say you had a bachelor's degree in Mechanical Engineering and Masters degree in Product development, which others on this forum also have.

I put products into production for a living - it's something that I have many years experience with (and have my fair share of awards to back it up, including Red Dot, iF, Good Design and MoMa to name but a few), and the simple reality is that products are manufactured to a tolerance, they are tested, companies, (and by companies I mean people, because people make product) try very hard to make the best product they can, BUT... mistakes happen, which inevitably leads to product failures. This is why you get a warranty, and this is why you get an extended warranty, and it's not cost prohibitive to do so and I've already demonstrated..

the reason I love this thread, is because I'm intrigued by it - I too want to know what happened to Eric's head, and I LOVE what he's doing showing us what it's like from the inside out! it's exactly what I would do if I personally was faced with a potentially HUGE repair bill, it's not what I would recommend for my company however.

I would however pose a question, is it the head, or the ink? Clic I applaud your ramekin test, because it show you are looking at this from more than one way, but perhaps something more scientific/diagnostic would be more prudent - I'm not sure if it's technical possible, but I would like to push the LLK ink to a different set of nozzles and see if that clogs - it would obviously cost an amount of ink to test that however. Maybe there is a way to  just print an LLK print only? on cheap paper it should only cost a little over €100.. just a thought..

Eric, we are coming close to the end of the month -  here's hoping your guy sorts you out!

James

[clic]

Designpartners,


Thank you for your comments on my work, but I only mentioned my photographic relative expertise because the prior response to my post was questioning my credibility.  My photographic relative accomplishments would also tend to suggest that my experience is rich and long, and can hardly come without some understanding of the technical aspect of the process.  All proportions aside, for instance, you probably would not question very long Ansel Adams' ability to judge an enlarger.  But some here question not only mine, but Jon Cone's judgement on this, which I can't help but qualifying as utter denial.

There is no fear mongering in what I write here.  I have no idea why in the world I would have any interest to steer fear, I certainly have other things to do.  On another hand, there is a problem, and it is left unaddressed at the moment.

One of the reasons why this issue is so stubborn, is that fixing their printer would not only cost an unfair amount to users touched by the problem, but in absence of Epson solving the mystery, there is no telling that the issue would not re-occur on people.  That has happened already.  I know that one could spend $2500-3000. to fix the printer, and then $1500. for a two year extended warranty, then another $1400 two years later and so on, but if anybody here find that fair, let alone affordable or cost effective, then be my guest, because that is not what we signed on when purchasing our printers, which so far amounts to falling into a trap.

You and others are certainly free to try to solve this problem on your own, which I really don't think is realistic, that is Epson's job.  Now if you go read the statement on this page

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.epson.jp/&ei=1WFwT8LxE8Lg0QGcv5zjBg&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CEIQ7gEwAA&prev=/search%3Fq%3Depson%2Bjapan%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3D0Yp%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26prmd%3Dimvnsz

I am pretty sure that what the photographic community has experienced recently with those printers, is not in line with the statement of purpose expressed there.   Please feel free you all, to write to Mr. Seiichi Hirano CEO of Epson (Global) because I am not sure that he would approve of how the L.F. Printers part of the U.S. branch behaves.  

Chaddro, since you have not much to do lately (ˆ_ˆ) can you blind us once more with your internet skills and fetch that gentleman's email?


Love to all.

[chaddro]

Well, new cartridges are on the way. BTW, they were manufactured in Japan. The Epson rep said that there were still some issues with cartridges right after the move to the new packaging... my 12/2012 LLK may have fallen into that category.

Thinking about this issue in general, I'll pose this supposition:

The 9900 series printers use a pressurized ink system. The cartridges have a void which is charged, and I assume the dampers are also under pressure. When the printer is turned off, or you open the doors to replace cartridge (and possibly when you lift the door on the printer), pressure is released. All sounds good...

The crux: What if a SUCTION is being created somehow in the ink supply when pressure is released in turn pulling ink away from the nozzles and the mini reservoir???

I can almost think this is what happened with my Cyan and Light Cyan. After power cycling the machine, both channels were completely gone. No way they can be clogged, they were fine for several solid weeks (printer never off in that time). Same with Yellow and LLK - completely gone. Now, I expected to maybe have to do a paired cleaning, but one by itself would not work. I had to use the "powerful" one to get ink to the nozzles.

Just food for thought.
 

[designpartners]

Designpartners,


Thank you for your comments on my work, but I only mentioned my photographic relative expertise because the prior response to my post was questioning my credibility.  
Love to all.

In fairness, I said your statement lacks credibility, or if you were to expand more it would lend more credibility.. I really wasn't questioning your work.. 

but lets leave it at that... as you said Love to all! 

[designpartners]

clic, which statement btw? there are a few of them from the last few days on that link but none that I see are relevant? but it's late, maybe I'm missing something

[chaddro]

I am pretty sure that what the photographic community has experienced recently with those printers, is not in line with the statement of purpose expressed there.   Please feel free you all, to write to Mr. Seiichi Hirano CEO of Epson (Global) because I am not sure that he would approve of how the L.F. Printers part of the U.S. branch behaves.  

Chaddro, since you have not much to do lately (ˆ_ˆ) can you blind us once more with your internet skills and fetch that gentleman's email?

What! And get whacked by the Ninkyō Dantai? NOT ME!

[Jeff Magidson]

Dean,
If you are trying to reassure yourself or dispense some feelgood therapy, what you write is perfect.  It is otherwise perfectly useless.  Nobody has ever suggested that there was a pandemic, just that there was a problem affecting a number of users, too many for anybody to feel safe.  I had found that much, and it has been by now corroborated by Jon Cone. 

So if I were you, in order to keep feeling good, I would pray and burn candles all day or abandon myself to whatever voodoo is your karma, because what has happened to many users, could happen to you tomorrow, and that really would be terrible, wouldn't it?

Most of us read this forum to learn and share. Can I ask you to please not assault other contributors?

[DeanChriss]

Dean,

If you are trying to reassure yourself or dispense some feelgood therapy, what you write is perfect.  It is otherwise perfectly useless.  Nobody has ever suggested that there was a pandemic, just that there was a problem affecting a number of users, too many for anybody to feel safe.  I had found that much, and it has been by now corroborated by Jon Cone. 

So if I were you, in order to keep feeling good, I would pray and burn candles all day or abandon myself to whatever voodoo is your karma, because what has happened to many users, could happen to you tomorrow, and that really would be terrible, wouldn't it?

Dearest Clic,

I was responding to a post by eheffa that implied some trepidation regarding how long his 7900 would last. You would say I was dispensing "some feel good therapy", I would say I was providing some realistic perspective. Both are the same, so I am guilty as charged. I wanted to reassure this user that there is a far greater chance of making wonderful prints for a number of years than of experiencing any premature catastrophic failure. As you said, it's not a pandemic, and that fact is easy to lose when reading these threads. The premature failure rate may be abnormally large relative to the fraction of a percent that's usual for such things, but it's certainly nothing like 50%, 25%, or even 10%. It serves no useful purpose to make people who have invested in these printers, and have units that are working well, feel "unsafe" or bad about their decision. Their worrying helps no one, and there's a very good chance they will never be affected.

None of this means I have no sympathy for those who have had these failures. The situation is quite the opposite, and I believe I said in an earlier post that I'd be as upset as anyone if my printer failed in this way. But being realistic about it (after some swearing) I'd simply have to decide whether to repair or replace it. Given its age replacement would probably be the best option, unless I could repair it for a reasonable price. Perhaps Eric will have some breakthrough and I could send my print head to him for unclogging at a reasonable price. ;-) Regardless, it's a just a matter of fact business decision that has little to do with religion or voodoo.

[Mark D Segal]

David, yes, it's good to remind people of this. I have mentioned it before in other threads - Epson tech support had recommended to me some years ago (in the days of the 4000 model) to run a print through the printer between each cleaning cycle in order to minimize the risk of this condition developing, and for sure not to do more than one power cleaning at a time without first printing.