Leica S2 for Landscape Photography - What about Lens Options?

[Josh-H]

Forgive the somewhat rambling and sporadic nature of of this post. I am writing down my thoughts and trying to make sense of them in the hope that the mere fact of putting them on 'paper' will help clarify them and assist in the decision making process. Of course, the real hope is someone chimes in with a statement that crystallises and clarifies them for me 

I am on the fence about purchasing a Leica S2 for landscape photography (it would be an upgrade for me from the Canon 1DS MKIII - yes, a significant upgrade). I've narrowed the choice down to the S2 over a MFDB since I really love the ergonomics and convenience of the all in one package that Leica offers. I've been to my dealer and had a 'play' and not much need be said other than its 'gorgeous' to hold and use. The files are also scrumptious (couldn't think of a better word! :-) The fact it shoots DNG is a big plus for me as I don't have to learn Capture One or any other software such as Phocus. I can keep my workflow strictly Lightroom. Thats a strong consideration for me.

I have also been to my local Phase dealer and had a good play with the P40+ on a Phase camera. Whilst the files are beautiful (no question whatsoever) I was not a fan of the camera itself (either its feel, ergonomics, or for that matter reliability). The camera I played with had to be reset twice in the space of an hour. And whilst I am willing to forgive those sort of glitches (it happens to just about everything electronic) it did not inspire me with confidence. I think the plasticky feel of the camera really put me off in the end. Separate batteries for the back and camera also really puts me off this combination and I have ruled it out as an option. I feel its just too clumsy for the sort of field work I like to do.

One of the things sort of putting me off the Leica S2 a bit is the very limited range of lenses currently available. I can kit it out with the 35mm, 70mmm and either 120 or 180mm, but then that is pretty much it. No TSE lens options, and as far as I can tell not much else on the radar either... Am I missing something or are there more lenses coming? What would I like? I'd love something wider than 35mm and I would dearly love a TSE option to boot. These would seal the deal for me.

I am used to a slew of lenses in my bag including everything from 17mm TSE, all the way 300mm F2.8L IS - and I really enjoy the flexibility of so much glass at hand. Its very much a hang up of a 35mm shooter - perhaps iI need to build a bridge and get over it.

What are peoples thoughts on the current lens offerings and future coming lenses? Are we likely to see much else form Leica for the S2?

Part of me says to wait and see what Canon do with the 1DS MKIV - but I think a bigger part wants the solid piece of unobtanium that is the S2 (if you know what I mean!) While a 1DS MKIV would keep my current glass investment in good use I doubt it will produce a file as good as the Leica.

Bearing in mind my camera lives on a tripod 99% of the time with mirror lock up etc. Its rarely on anything more than ISO100.

Since I am truly on the fence about this.. Im interested in thoughts, opinions on options. Is it time for me to jump the 35mm ship and enter the thin rare air of Medium Format? And if so, is the S2 the best choice?

In terms of budget - An S2 is a viable option with a few lenses.

I am going to Antarctica in November and if I do buy into a new system I want to give myself plenty of 'play' time before the trip to make sure I am fully across all the cameras 'foibles'.  Alternatively, I just rent another 1DS MKIII for Antarctica and wait for the 1DS MKIV. What to do.....

[nightfire]

Dale Photo sells Leica S2 to Mamiya 645MF and Pentax 67 lens adapters. While it's the usual hack with stop-down metering etc., such a workaround might broaden your lens options until Leica gets its lens line-up act together.

[telyt]

There are also Hasselblad V (?) and Pentax 67 to S2 adapters.  At the S2 introduction Leica showed mockups of a normal zoom, 30mm TS and 350mm f/3.5 APO.  While I wouldn't buy into the system based on a promise of lenses to come, there are non-Leica lens options and Leica appears to have more lenses in the works.

[tsjanik]

Josh-H:

Have you considered the 645D?  It handles and is not much heavier or larger than a FF DSLR.  Lenses can be problematic, but are obtainable and range from 25mm to 600mm.

[Erick Boileau]

The most successful landscape photographer I know - in terms of recognition and income - uses the camera you are using now.

YAB is using a 1Ds Mark III

[telyt]

The most successful landscape photographer I know - in terms of recognition and income - uses the camera you are using now.

Why is this relevant?  Perhaps the OP wants to make his own photographs, not mimic someone else's.

[telyt]

You think the OP is mimicking someone else's photographs? You think a change of camera is going to result in the OP making his own photographs rather than mimicking someone else's?

What's the point of mentioning "The most successful landscape photographer I know - in terms of recognition and income - uses the camera you are using now"?  A good salesman can make money with photos made by any camera.  The OP has demonstrated that he knows how to ask questions.  He didn't ask "Is my Canon good enough?".  He asked about lenses for the S2.

[eronald]

I have the impression most people here use multiple cameras. I don't think the Canon super-teles or super-wides can be replaced by the S2 -yet.

Edmund

[Josh-H]

Thanks all for the thoughts so far. To address a few of the queries:

What are you expecting a change of camera will do for you?

Provide me with more resolution to make larger sharper prints. Currently I max out my prints at around 24 x 36 inches from a single unstitched exposure. These prints are made by uprezing in Lightroom from around 200 PPI to 300PPI. The results are very very good and I am very happy with the results. My last exhibition was done this way. What I would like to do is to make prints 44" + and maintain this quality. Yes, I could uprez further - but experimentation has shown me the file starts to fall apart at the pixel peeping level. Whilst this wont matter to 99% of my clients (who purchase on emotion) - it does matter to me.

He didn't ask "Is my Canon good enough?".  He asked about lenses for the S2.

Yes - exactly. I know my Canon is a good camera (I love it as a camera; its been a workhorse). The question was indeed about lenses for the S2

Have you considered the 645D?  It handles and is not much heavier or larger than a FF DSLR.  Lenses can be problematic, but are obtainable and range from 25mm to 600mm.

I have not had a chance to have a good look at a 645D or the lens options - but I will definitely be doing so.  I appreciate this suggestion - What software is required for the file?

Dale Photo sells Leica S2 to Mamiya 645MF and Pentax 67 lens adapters. While it's the usual hack with stop-down metering etc., such a workaround might broaden your lens options until Leica gets its lens line-up act together.

I found some of these suggestions with google as well. For me (this is a personal thing) I don't like the idea of a hack work around given the investment required in camera. I think if the lens options are truly so limited and nothing is on the horizon (I was hoping there had been some announcements I had missed)  I will have to rule out the S2 for the time being. I dont much like the idea of investing in the camera and sitting around waiting for Leica to release lenses for it.

[tsjanik]

I have not had a chance to have a good look at a 645D or the lens options - but I will definitely be doing so.  I appreciate this suggestion - What software is required for the file?

It can save files as DNG, so any software you prefer. You may find it worthwhile to subscribe to diglloyd (Lloyd Chamber's site), he has tested the S2 and the 645D.

[Wayne Fox]

What are you expecting a change of camera will do for you?

The most successful landscape photographer I know - in terms of recognition and income - uses the camera you are using now.

So this means we should all use the camera that he uses?  Who is this photographer ... would be nice to see if the person really qualifies and what he actually sells to make his income.  Otherwise this is just another generic "having a good camera doesn't make you a good photographer" comment ... I think we've all heard that before and the OP has been around long enough he's read it a few hundred times just on this forum.

Whether you like him and his work or not, hard to dispute that Peter Lik is the most successful and recognized landscape photographer in the world, and while he does occasionally shoot a dSLR, you won't find many images taken with one hanging in his galleries (if any).  And yes, I know ... picking up an old film pano camera like his, or buying a PhaseOneDF with p65+ back (which is his current camera)won't make anyone like him.

the difference between very large prints from medium format and dSLR (non stitched) is obvious and you don't need to put your nose against the print to tell. If that's what the OP is wanting to do he's certainly justified at look at his options and asking for opinions from those already using this type of equipment.

[Wayne Fox]

The files are also scrumptious (couldn't think of a better word! :-) The fact it shoots DNG is a big plus for me as I don't have to learn Capture One or any other software such as Phocus. I can keep my workflow strictly Lightroom. Thats a strong consideration for me.

C1's a nice program ... not hard to get used to.  I fight the same problem because I'm so used to Lightroom and love the interface and implementation of local adjustments.  I'm pretty comfortable with C1 now, andI've been playing with Leica M9 files, and I think the native DNG files are better when processed through C1.

I have also been to my local Phase dealer and had a good play with the P40+ on a Phase camera. Whilst the files are beautiful (no question whatsoever) I was not a fan of the camera itself (either its feel, ergonomics, or for that matter reliability). The camera I played with had to be reset twice in the space of an hour. And whilst I am willing to forgive those sort of glitches (it happens to just about everything electronic) it did not inspire me with confidence. I think the plasticky feel of the camera really put me off in the end. Separate batteries for the back and camera also really puts me off this combination and I have ruled it out as an option. I feel its just too clumsy for the sort of field work I like to do.

I fought some of those glitches, some have to do with old lenses, others resolved by latest firmware.  Phase is actually pretty rugged, and guessing a new body is in the works, one influenced more by phase than mamiya.  The new schneider designed lenses are really good. One nice advantage to phase is the aggressive trade-up pricing they offer when new technology comes around.  (Once  you start working with and printing images from 40mp files you may yearn for more.)

One of the things sort of putting me off the Leica S2 a bit is the very limited range of lenses currently available. I can kit it out with the 35mm, 70mmm and either 120 or 180mm, but then that is pretty much it.
What are peoples thoughts on the current lens offerings and future coming lenses? Are we likely to see much else form Leica for the S2?

I'm a Leica dealer it's hard to recommend these cameras ... and this is one of the main reasons. I don't know if they'll ever get any more lenses out the door, and no guarantee you can even get these.  It's a nice camera and the glass is terrific but it definitely needs some more focal lengths and a t/s option.

part of me says to wait and see what Canon do with the 1DS MKIV - but I think a bigger part wants the solid piece of unobtanium that is the S2 (if you know what I mean!) While a 1DS MKIV would keep my current glass investment in good use I doubt it will produce a file as good as the Leica.

I wouldn't hold my breath on a 1DS Mark4.  Not sure what is going on, but all of the top dSLR's are way overdue for a refresh. Seems too coincidental and implies there are issues getting to 35mp's or so (which is where they need to land to be significant resolution wise). You maybe waiting a long time. (now that I said that maybe they'll announce it tomorrow) 

[Erick Boileau]

It can save files as DNG, so any software you prefer

Capture One last version doesn't open Hasselblad DNG

without TS lenses the Leica S2 is not very sexy for landscape and architecture

I am afraid  the Canon 1Ds Mark IV will be a very good video camera with more pixels and better AF , I am not waiting anymore this camera

[eronald]

Given the above and your original question "Is it time for me to jump the 35mm ship and enter the thin rare air of Medium Format?", then yes, if you want to avoid the file falling apart at that size then you will need to jump ship.

As to which camera you choose, well, you're already going down the right path by testing and using the options.

Good luck.

The Hasselblad is the fastest of the real MF SLRs, has the best focus, the most lenses, and a really interesting tilt/shift device. Maybe this is what you really want.

Edmund

[Josh-H]

The Hasselblad is the fastest of the real MF SLRs, has the best focus, the most lenses, and a really interesting tilt/shift device. Maybe this is what you really want.

Edmund

Hi Edmund,

I have been pondering this (couldnt sleep last night!) and the part of me that wants and is willing to purchase the S2 is being emotionally driven I think. Its that gorgeously ergonomically masterful body that is wooing me. However, the lack of lenses for it has really made me have to say no to it for now.

I admit I had not given the Hass. much thought - I had ruled it out because it doesnt shoot a DNG (correct?) The importer for Hass. is not far from me so I will certainly be speaking to them and paying them a visit now.

I also admit to being more in doubt now than I was yesterday about the options out there. Perhaps I should consider an Alpa or similar with my choice of back?

As to which camera you choose, well, you're already going down the right path by testing and using the options. If I were you I certainly wouldn't buy into any system based on any manufacturer's promises.

Thats for sure - I wont buy based on a promise of things to come. It has to be here, now, and ideal for my purpose.

[Josh-H]

If I was in the market for a dedicated solution for landscape - which thankfully I'm not - I'd be keeping my money firmly in my pocket until there was a proven live-view/focus-confirmation enabled back available for the various existing tech camera options.

On paper the IQ series backs seem interesting, but I'd need hands on experience and personal confirmation that the features really work and really work well. I'd also be looking very carefully at colour issues with the 80mp version. 

You know.. the more I think about the options.. the more I agree with you.

[dfarkas]

Josh,

There are indeed other S lenses in the pipeline. The next lenses which are coming this year are a 24mm f/3.5, 30mm f/2.8 and 30-90mm f/3.5-5.6. From discussions I've had with the Leica product managers, the zoom will be the same diameter as the 70mm (82mm) and just about an inch longer. The idea was to make a very portable, high-quality zoom which is suited for travel and landscape applications where a fast aperture isn't necessary (tripod or good light). It will be significantly smaller and lighter than a HCD 35-90 or HC 50-110. The new fixed wides will offer the same extremely low distortion and high sharpness of the current 35mm f/2.5.

The system is indeed still young, but if the existing line-up is any indication, there won't be a single weak lens offered for the system going forward. The S lenses are among the best ever produced for medium format. Leica optics designers consider them the best lenses they've ever built for any system - not a small claim.

Consider two factors:

1) Leica is first and foremost an optics company. There are 22 current M lenses with half of them being designed in the last 10 years. I fully expect Leica to roll out a complete line-up of S lenses within the next couple of years. They design, manufacture and calibrate their own lenses in the very same factory where the S2 is assembled.

2) Financially, Leica is healthier than ever. With the recent successes of the M9 and the S2, Leica has had the most profitable year since they went public. While compared to Canon, Leica is a small company, they are much larger and more diversified than other players in the world of MFD (~1200 employees vs. ~130, for example).

Between 30 and 40 million Euro was spent in R&D to develop the S-System from scratch.  The system is very successful and they are selling every single lens for the S2 they can produce. There is no reason to expect that Leica will not continue developing the system and release more lenses in the near term.

In the meantime, yes, there are adapters (we carry all of them) for Hasselblad CF/FE, Pentax 67 and Mamiya 645 to fill in the gaps. I've tested just about every lens I can get my hands from the Hasselblad 40mm CFE-IF and Pentax 45mm f/4 on the wide end to the Hasselblad FE 350 f/5.6 SA and Pentax 400mm f/4 ED-IF on the long end. Without exception, every comparable Leica S lens outperforms every alternative lens (especially wide-open), but stopped down these other lenses can offer very good performance (just not S lens level) and provide addition focal length coverage.

Also, we have two different T/S solutions on hand. One is a dedicated S2 to Rollei SL66 bellows system. The other is an adapted Arca-Swiss 6x9 F-Classic. Both of these offer full view camera movements on the S2 and so far we haven't seen any negative effects from microlenses even with large movements. Unfortunately, the use of tech-camera wide-angles is not currently possible due to the register distance of the S2 body. We are still actively exploring new options to expand the versatility of the S2. On the flip side of this, I recently made two trips in the last month. On the first, I brought the S2 with 35, 70 and 180. On the second, the 35, 70 and 120. Not once did I feel I was missing a focal length. If you speak with existing S2 owners you will find that while most would welcome additional lenses, very few really feel they are missing anything significant using the current range. Those that do, use alternative 45, 50 and 55mm lenses to fill in the 35mm equivalent focal length.

My suggestion is to try out the S2 and a complement of lenses for an actual shoot/trip/assignment. See for yourself if the system will suit your needs and if you end up feeling limited in actual use. I think like many others who've done the exact same thing, you will be very pleasantly surprised.

David

[Wayne Fox]

Did I say that? Why the twisted panties?

You're preaching to the converted.

Perhaps I missed something, but it wasn't obvious from the original question why the OP was considering a change, which is why I asked "What are you expecting a change of camera will do for you?"  

well, you certainly implied that.  And if the question you were asking is that simple, why did you have to throw in the other statement?  No matter your intent, it certainly sounded like the typical preaching we get all the time of MF not worth the price of admission.

[Wayne Fox]

Hmm, why on earth would I imply that? I've used MF film capture and MF digital capture most of my working life and still use it day in and day out.

Very good question.  But how else is a reader supposed to interpret your statement ...

"The most successful landscape photographer I know - in terms of recognition and income - uses the camera you are using now."

As I said, the question you ask is fine, but the additional line makes even less sense now in light of what you mentioned in this post.

enough time wasted by both of us ... caught me in a bad mood and I see so many people post irrelevant comments instead of just trying to clarify a posters questions or offer suggestions (and yes I"m guilty of that as well).

[David Schneider]

Capture One last version doesn't open Hasselblad DNG

A Hasselblad DNG?  DNG's are not brand specific.  That's the idea of the format.