Contax 645+Sinar e75MFDB: Handheld VS Tripod VS Tripod w 2 sec delay&mirrorup

[lowep]

Here is the results of my home-made Sunday-driver test to see what difference if any I could see between trying to shoot my Contax 645+Sinar eMotion75 MFDB in three different ways:
1) hand held
2) mounted on tripod
3) mounted on tripod with 2 second delay and mirror up

All 7 images are 100% crop jpegs reduced to 72dpi for easy uploading with no sharpening or any other adjustments. Ss and f-stop for each image noted underneath each image. I refocussed  using autofocus on the metal bar in the middle bar in the middle of the frame before each exposure.

Obviously this is not a scientific test since I am not a scientist but I found it useful and post the results here to see if others have similar experiences or notice anything I don't.

What I am trying to figure out is: Is trying to shoot handheld with this relatively old-fashioned camera and relatively large MFDB sensor combo viable or not?

As far as I can judge the images mounted on tripod with 2 second delay and mirror up are much better than the handheld and tripod shots, despite the relatively high shutter speeds.

What surprised me is the worst images seem to be those made on the tripod, maybe because I did not take as much care squeezing the button down as I did when hand hold?

My conclusions are that (a) hand holding is risky for my aim that is to produce large prints (where small differences in camera shake became very noticeable), (b) I need to be more careful about squeezing the shutter by hand when shooting on a tripod or use a cable release, (3) I should stick with tripod, mirror up and cable release or 2-second delay whenever possible even at shutter speeds of 1/125-1/250 and (4) hand holding would probably be easier if I were 30 years younger and drank less coffee.

[John R Smith]

You should really have posted this on the MF section of the Forum, it would have raised more interest.

Your results are broadly the same as my own using the 'Blad 500 and the 39 MP back. I found that shooting off a tripod without using mirror lock-up consistently gave the worst results, using a cable release of course. I think that in my case, using the WLF handheld, the pressing of the camera back into your stomach actually damps the whole assembly to some extent and you get a sharper result.

The very best, sharpest pictures result from using a tripod and mirror lock-up. But then you would expect that, of course. And if you have gone to all the trouble of setting up a tripod, why would you not bother to pre-release the mirror?

John

[lowep]

shooting off a tripod without  using mirror lock-up consistently gave the worst results, using a cable release of course.

I am happy to read this - maybe I am not totally nuts after all, which I was starting to suspect, so thanks for the reply 

Even though I mostly shoot portraits I almost always do use mirror lock up. However, I am now facing the challenge of how to use my system to photograph a traditional ceremony that will be hard to do with mirror lock up, cable release and tripod - though not impossible. I had thought the best solution would be to move around with the camera mounted on the tripod (ie a three-legged monopod) rather than trying to shoot hand held, but now I am not so sure.

[lowep]

John, what tripod were you using? Mine is an aluminium Manfrotto like this one that one colleague has suggested could be the cause of the problem - even though it is rated to support 5kg. Maybe I should make myself a wooden one :-)

I also do not understand how come a MFDB could be more sensitive to movement than film that I guess is related to the size and number of pixels -- ie the MFDB records more information than film does so shows more errors?

[John R Smith]

John, what tripod were you using? Mine is an aluminium Manfrotto like this one that one colleague has suggested could be the cause of the problem - even though it is rated to support 5kg. Maybe I should make myself a wooden one :-)

I also do not understand how come a MFDB could be more sensitive to movement than film that I guess is related to the size and number of pixels -- ie the MFDB records more information than film does so shows more errors?

Well, yes, shooting portraits is just the one time you don't want mirror lock-up. My own tripod is an ancient Slik that I have had for over 30 years, and is nothing special. Experimenting with different tripods might be well worthwhile - the mass of camera+tripod is critical, and every combination will have a different damping factor and response to vibration. Every lens will have a different impact on the equation, too.

MFDBs will show up the tiniest amount of vibration and focus error. There have been (and are) endless discussions about this in the MF section of the Forum. You can read more than you might probably ever want to know by searching the archives there, but in short - forget everything you knew and understood about film. MF digital is a whole new game.

John

[lowep]

"My own tripod is an ancient Slik.."

Had hoped you would reply that your tripod is a super-dooper nasa carbon job, as that would have ruled out tripod itself as cause of error. Instead looks like as you say tripod requires further investigation that I will do when I get back from west africa later this year. Meanwhile, mirror up looks like a must - not ideal but no worse than having to insert the film into my Graflex after focussing  

 

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,


Some years ago I made a similar test using a DSLR. I was shooting a telephoto lens at 1/15 - 1/125 and evaluated the images with Imatest. Essentially I got two set of results:

1) Reasonably sharp but about half of the achievable resolution, these were:

- Free hand with AntiShake on
- Camera on tripod without MLU with and without AS

2) Very sharp image utilizing full resolution when using MLU and self timer.

So this is pretty consistent with your findings.

Best regards
Erik

Here is the results of my home-made Sunday-driver test to see what difference if any I could see between trying to shoot my Contax 645+Sinar eMotion75 MFDB in three different ways:
1) hand held
2) mounted on tripod
3) mounted on tripod with 2 second delay and mirror up

All 7 images are 100% crop jpegs reduced to 72dpi for easy uploading with no sharpening or any other adjustments. Ss and f-stop for each image noted underneath each image. I refocussed  using autofocus on the metal bar in the middle bar in the middle of the frame before each exposure.

Obviously this is not a scientific test since I am not a scientist but I found it useful and post the results here to see if others have similar experiences or notice anything I don't.

What I am trying to figure out is: Is trying to shoot handheld with this relatively old-fashioned camera and relatively large MFDB sensor combo viable or not?

As far as I can judge the images mounted on tripod with 2 second delay and mirror up are much better than the handheld and tripod shots, despite the relatively high shutter speeds.

What surprised me is the worst images seem to be those made on the tripod, maybe because I did not take as much care squeezing the button down as I did when hand hold?

My conclusions are that (a) hand holding is risky for my aim that is to produce large prints (where small differences in camera shake became very noticeable), (b) I need to be more careful about squeezing the shutter by hand when shooting on a tripod or use a cable release, (3) I should stick with tripod, mirror up and cable release or 2-second delay whenever possible even at shutter speeds of 1/125-1/250 and (4) hand holding would probably be easier if I were 30 years younger and drank less coffee.

[lowep]

Hmmm... what to do about it?

1) Has anybody made the transition from an aluminum tripod to a carbon fiber tripod with the same camera + MFDB setup and found this really does make a difference?

2) Has anybody compared the results of shooting the same thing hand-held at slow ss with a MFDB setup and a digital camera versus a digital camera with a smaller sensor such as Leica M8 or M9, Canon 5d, 5d MkII etc?

I have not had the opportunity to do either so would be interested to hear from anybody who has.

 

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

Only thing I can say was that I was shooting with a Manfrotto 55C (auliminium) tripod and Manfrottos heaviest 3D head using a Pentax 67 (with film). With that equipment I used to have vibrations from shutter, even using MLU. Switching to a Velbon Sherpa Pro 630 Carbon tripod all problems went away. I now use a Gitzo GT3541LS without center column. Works well without IS and with MLU, but MLU is needed with long lenses (400 mm + extender).

The reason that I had less problems (well no problems) with the Velbon may have been that the joins have a tighter fit on the Velbon compared to the Manfrotto, but it's also clear that legs are much stiffer.

I essentially always shoot with MLU and self timer when shooting on tripod.

BR
Erik Kaffehr

Hmmm... what to do about it?

1) Has anybody made the transition from an aluminum tripod to a carbon fiber tripod with the same camera + MFDB setup and found this really does make a difference?

2) Has anybody compared the results of shooting the same thing hand-held at slow ss with a MFDB setup and a digital camera versus a digital camera with a smaller sensor such as Leica M8 or M9, Canon 5d, 5d MkII etc?

I have not had the opportunity to do either so would be interested to hear from anybody who has.

 

[lowep]

Thanks Eric, for pointing this out. My tripod is very similar to the aluminium 55c, so looks like time to replace it

[marcmccalmont]

In my testing hanging a fairly heavy backpack from the tripod improved things as much as mirror lockup!
Now all my tripods have hooks and all my camera bags are backpacks.
Marc

[marcmccalmont]

Not a big difference between the aluminum and carbon fiber legs as far as sharpness just weight savings.
marc

[lowep]

Not a big difference between the aluminum and carbon fiber legs as far as sharpness just weight savings

not to forget difference in price and problem of disposing of the perfectly good aluminium tripod I have already that would make a lousy coat stand as it is silver whereas our interior decor is more wood and hospital ward greens

[marcmccalmont]

I find that my Pentax K5 with its finer pixel pitch is more critical of technique than my P45+ as one would suspect.
A quick summary of the technique that works best for me:
1. Tripod (good one that is bigger than the camera you are using)
2. Mirror lock up or live view
3. cable release
4. Backpack hung from the hook
5. left hand on the mirror box (dampens some shutter vibration)
Marc

[lowep]

After receiving this good advice I tried some more tests today.

1) compared amount of camera shake visible at 100% pixel peep when my aluminum manfrotto tripod was extended to headshot height of a seated person (top two out of three leg extensions with the following variables: with/without MLU and with/without 5kg weight (bag) hanging on cord from knob just below head at top of tripod) all at 1/15, 100asa, f2.8. Result no significant differences. Conclusion: when extended at this limited height the tripod is sufficiently stable that MLU and/or adding weight makes no appreciable difference.

2) compared amount of camera shake at 100% when same tripod was extended (a) same as above (top 2 out of 3 leg extensions), (b) all three leg extensions fully extended (about headshot height of short standing person), (c) fully extended (all three leg extensions and center column also fully extended) all of these with MLU and with and without adding 10 kg weight hung on cord from knob just below tripod head at 1/15, 100asa, f2.0. Result: amount of shake increases as height of tripod is extended (ie from 2 to 3 extensions, and from 3 to full extension with center column). But no noticable difference in camera shake between images with/without 10kg bag hung from knob below head.

So looks like my particular tripod is fine for my camera at the height of 2 out of 3 leg extensions but any higher than that increases camera shake that unfortunately does not seem to be offset by hanging a weight of 10 kg on a cord from know just below head at top of tripod.