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Author Topic: Blacks vs Tone Curve  (Read 2832 times)

Lost

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Blacks vs Tone Curve
« on: October 29, 2010, 08:36:09 am »

I am still struggling a bit to understand the image processing chain in Lightroom - in particular the relationship between the blacks slider and the tone curve.

If I understand the black slider correctly (and that is quite a big "if"!), it sets a threshold luminosity below which pixels are mapped to pure black. eg: if pixels are 8 bit values from 0-255, if I have a blacks value of 20 then each pixel's RGB values have 20 subtracted from each of them and then the result is re-normalised, scaling by 255/(255-20). This appears to be applied before the tone curve.

If so, isn't this producing exactly the same result as dragging the lower left point in the tone curve to the right and adjusting the slope of the resulting curve?

Is there any reason why it is better use the blacks slider to clip data rather than (for example) setting a sharp contrast slope for shadow areas? I would guess that the latter would preserve more information in the image than clipping, though whether or not this is visible is debatable.

John R Smith

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Re: Blacks vs Tone Curve
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2010, 09:05:23 am »

This part of Lightroom (and most other image editors) has always puzzled me, too. I would have expected that the curves control and the Basic adjustments would be linked - at least the Blacks, Shadow Fill and Brightness sliders, anyway. So I would have thought that if I moved the Blacks slider it would alter the lower part of the Curve as well, and one control would reflect the settings of the other. But they don't, and in fact the two sets of controls are additive (or subtractive, depending on what you are doing).

Like Lost, I really don't understand the difference between editing an image using the Basic tools or doing it with Curves. It seems to me that their functions overlap. Perhaps Eric or Jeff will chip in and set us straight. On the other hand, I know what they will say -"Buy the Video!"

John
« Last Edit: October 29, 2010, 09:25:43 am by John R Smith »
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donbga

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Re: Blacks vs Tone Curve
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2010, 02:54:31 pm »

Basic tools or doing it with Curves. It seems to me that their functions overlap. Perhaps Eric or Jeff will chip in and set us straight. On the other hand, I know what they will say -"Buy the Video!"


No need to purchase the video. The two controls are not wired directly to each other. The output of one doesn't affect the input of the other and vice versa. They are parametric controls relative to the color and tonal values of the image. You are simply refuseing to accept your own observations.

Don
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JBerardi

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Re: Blacks vs Tone Curve
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2010, 06:46:13 pm »

Like Lost, I really don't understand the difference between editing an image using the Basic tools or doing it with Curves. It seems to me that their functions overlap.

John

As I understand it, both tools are ultimately manipulating the same tone curve within ACR/LR. Basic is for large, rough adjustments that get you into the general vicinity of what you're trying to achieve, tone curve is to fine tune things. It's kind of like using a microscope with a rough and a fine focus adjustment. Both knobs are going to adjust the same thing, and you could get by with just using the fine adjustment, but it's easier to start by using the rough.

You should probably still get an answer from someone who actually KNOWS for a fact how this works (ie, Eric Chan), but I'm pretty sure that's the concept.
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madmanchan

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Re: Blacks vs Tone Curve
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2010, 10:10:39 am »

Yes, in many cases you can use the tone curve controls (Brightness, Contrast, Parametric Curve, Point Curve) as a substitute for the Blacks control -- particularly the latter two, since they give you more control over just that portion of the curve.

The main idea, though, is that Exposure & Blacks will let you first define the range of tones that you plan to work with for a given image. In other words, you set the highlight clip point and the black clip point. Then you can use the remaining tone tools (listed above) to massage the stuff in between those extremes. This gives you finer gradations when using those controls.

For example, suppose you had a very low contrast image and you wanted to map one of the gray-ish values to pure black. You could do that with the point curve, no problem. But then you would have somewhat less control (using, say, the remaining "right half" of the point curve UI) for finessing the rest of the image. A better approach in this case is to first use the Blacks slider to establish the black (even if somewhat conservatively). Then you have the full parametric/point curve UI to work with.

One approach I often use is to hold down Option/Alt when using Blacks, which gives a visualization of what gets clipped. I will adjust Blacks to just shy of stuff getting clipped (i.e., if stuff starts getting seriously clipped with Blacks = 8, I'll back off to Blacks = 7). Then I can use the parametric/point curve to finesse the shadows.
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Eric Chan

Lost

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Re: Blacks vs Tone Curve
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2010, 05:15:53 am »

Thanks, that makes a lot of sense. Also, I had not realised that the alt-key trick works with the blacks slider - it makes it much easier to guage what is happening to the data...
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