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fredjeang

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MFD in extreme conditions
« on: March 12, 2010, 07:20:33 am »

Hi,

I would like to ask the MFD users about the reliability of these gears in extreme outdoor conditions.
I saw the Phase impressive marketing about that but it is...marketing.
Well, it has been reported here many failures in Antartica trip with the Canon 5D MK2. I do not know if there were some MFD users in those trips but I'd like to hear from them about experience from the field, and anyone who is using MFD in hostile environements like deserts cold and hot, humide climates, high altitude, rain etc...
Also, are they brands in MFD that are knowned to be particulary good for intensive outdoor use and others that are to avoid in these conditions?

Is the cost to pay for MFD (including camera) is delivering tools that are capable to handle any kind of adverse situations with confidence?

Thank you.

Fred.
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archivue

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MFD in extreme conditions
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2010, 08:55:28 am »

Quote from: fredjeang
I do not know if there were some MFD users in those trips but I'd like to hear from them about experience from the field, and anyone who is using MFD in hostile environements like deserts cold and hot, humide climates, high altitude, rain etc...
what worked... antartica
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Bernhard

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MFD in extreme conditions
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2010, 09:08:27 am »

Quote from: fredjeang
Hi,

I would like to ask the MFD users about the reliability of these gears in extreme outdoor conditions.
I saw the Phase impressive marketing about that but it is...marketing.
Well, it has been reported here many failures in Antartica trip with the Canon 5D MK2. I do not know if there were some MFD users in those trips but I'd like to hear from them about experience from the field, and anyone who is using MFD in hostile environements like deserts cold and hot, humide climates, high altitude, rain etc...
Also, are they brands in MFD that are knowned to be particulary good for intensive outdoor use and others that are to avoid in these conditions?

Is the cost to pay for MFD (including camera) is delivering tools that are capable to handle any kind of adverse situations with confidence?

Thank you.

Fred.

I've used my P45+ in -27°c here in Iceland without any problems but the shutter in the H2 lenses got a bit slower. also used in heavy rain, same again, the h2 gave up, needed to be warmed up in car for 2 hours before being able to turn it on again (btw I'm pretty happy with H2, it's just not weatherproof;)

I've always been very skeptic about open fan holes  in hasselbald, sinar and Leaf

all the best,

Bernhard Kristinn

Don Libby

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MFD in extreme conditions
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2010, 09:35:41 am »

I’ve used first a Phase One P30+ connected to a Mamiya AFD II and now currently a P45+ connected to a Cambo WRS1000.  I’ve used these combinations in blowing sand storms of the Southwest as well as blowing snow at the Grand Canyon in the dead of winter.  I’ve used these backs while shooting in the surf at Big Sur as well as in a rain in the California Redwoods.  I’m a landscape photographer and consider where I am as my studio as I almost never shoot indoors.  In all this time (which as been several years) I’ve never had one moments problem – other than keeping the battery warm.

No marketing here just my experiences shooting Phase One products.

Don

guyharrison

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MFD in extreme conditions
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2010, 09:53:23 am »

Hello,

Finally a topic I have some experience on.

I will start with cameras and lenses:

I shoot Contax 654 for going on 11 years now.  99% Nature and landscape photography.  I know, the Contax is not advertised as weather-sealed, either body or lenses.  Nevertheless, with tens of thousands of shots, I have never had a failure.  The following are examples of conditions that I have shot in, multiple times (not just once):

Yellowstone in January and February.  Blowing snow.  Temperatures down to -25F (that's right, F).  Steam in geyser areas turning immediately to frost on the body.  Moonlight long exposures of up to 20 minutes at temps from -10 to -25 F.

Alaska for 3 months.  Cool weather and rainy drizzle falling on camera body.  Salty spray shooting from boats.

Death Valley.  Heat, blowing sand.  Temps up to 90F.

Arizona desert cactus bloom.  Fine dust, temperatures up to 115F.

Florida various times year round.  Very high humidity (95% plus) going in and out of air conditioning.  Salt spray.

These are just the extremes.  Many days/weeks/months of typical mountain/desert/river/red rock/coastal shooting in humidity, heat, moisture, fog that most would consider more moderate or normal conditions.

I can tell you, the Contax 645 is probably the most solid, tank-like, durable, reliable and easy to use system out there.  Of course, I take reasonable precautions to protect my gear from the elements (umbrellas, putting it right back in the case, dry packs, heat packs in the winter, and such) but I must admit that my gear has been drizzled on, snowed on, sand-blown on, and similar.  I also religiously clean it at the end of each day and make sure it is totally dry.

Have no fear, this system can take what you dish out.  Still, I wouldn't shoot it in open rainfall or direct water splashing, but that would eliminate, maybe, .01% of its capability (and you can get EWA marine bag cases that allow this type of shooting as well).

The new Leica advertises complete weather sealing and it looks like the real deal.  But, let me see, for the price of the Leica body and one lens you can buy an ENTIRE Contax system with body, vertical grip, NINE Carl Zeiss lenses (from 35mm to 350mm APO including what is still regarded by many as the finest 120mm 1/1 Makro ever made and 80mm f2 one of the fastest MF lenses ever), various finders, a flash, and probably still have $9K to put to a digital back.  Plus, use Hasselblad lenses with an adapter.

As for digital backs for heavy outdoor use, Phase One is the best choice.  Their durability videos and their reputation for durability speak for themselves.  They have no fan louvers or other easy ways for the elements to penetrate into the back and can handle any temperature range you throw at them.  Also, if you are a landscaper I assume you want long exposures from time to time and Phase is the only game at all for exposures of 1-2 HOURS.  There is no contest as other backs seem to pride themselves if they can go 1-2 MINUTES.

I say this as a person dreaming to afford a p45+ one day, and I would put my hard-earned money there.

The new Pentax 645 D is also advertised as weather-sealed but is still a long ways off from offering a complete system and won't be available for many months.

If you need something now, I would get on ebay or KEH and put together a Contax 645 with the lenses you need, and then get any of the Phase One "plus" series of backs (the plus designates the long exposure ones).

Hope this helps,

Guy


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David Grover / Capture One

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MFD in extreme conditions
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2010, 10:06:19 am »

Quote from: Bernhard
I've used my P45+ in -27°c here in Iceland without any problems but the shutter in the H2 lenses got a bit slower. also used in heavy rain, same again, the h2 gave up, needed to be warmed up in car for 2 hours before being able to turn it on again (btw I'm pretty happy with H2, it's just not weatherproof;)

I've always been very skeptic about open fan holes  in hasselbald, sinar and Leaf

all the best,

Bernhard Kristinn

There are no open fan holes in Hasselblad products since the H3DII.  

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fredjeang

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MFD in extreme conditions
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2010, 10:33:32 am »

Quote from: Iron Creek
I’ve used first a Phase One P30+ connected to a Mamiya AFD II and now currently a P45+ connected to a Cambo WRS1000.  I’ve used these combinations in blowing sand storms of the Southwest as well as blowing snow at the Grand Canyon in the dead of winter.  I’ve used these backs while shooting in the surf at Big Sur as well as in a rain in the California Redwoods.  I’m a landscape photographer and consider where I am as my studio as I almost never shoot indoors.  In all this time (which as been several years) I’ve never had one moments problem – other than keeping the battery warm.

No marketing here just my experiences shooting Phase One products.

Don
Hi Don,
It's funny, when I look at the size and weight of the WRS1000, it makes me wonder about the reputation that had these MF-LF gears. It is smaller and lighter than any serious dslr...
Thanks a lot. (whent in your blog, very informative)

Cheers,

Fred.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2010, 10:58:32 am by fredjeang »
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fredjeang

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MFD in extreme conditions
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2010, 10:58:05 am »

Quote from: guyharrison
...

Hope this helps,

Guy
Thank you very much Guy for your very helpul post.

The Contax 645 has always a very good reputation among its owners and I'm sure for a good reason. (ergonomics, performance ?) In Madrid, 645 AF body in mint condition are at about 500, 600 euros...
I wonder is there a limitation in conpatibility with the Phase backs, I'm thinking of the Phase FF back because I'd like a full frame back if I can afford.
and if it's also possible to use Sinar backs on the 645 AF with adapter, I think it is.

In Hasselblad I see some very good bargains as well for the 503 and 903, same wondering with the backs compatibility, I've seen at least one option with Leaf here.

Lenses in both cases are easy to find second hand.

About weather sealing, it seems that your post confirm what Michael has pointed many times here, that there are some gear with no weather seal claims that are more reliable in heavy conditions than some marketing from consumer brands. (I (sadly) deal daily with Marketing departments and start to Know a little about how it works...)

Experiences from the field are the only ones fully trustable IMO.

Cheers,

Fred.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2010, 11:18:00 am by fredjeang »
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JDG

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MFD in extreme conditions
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2010, 11:00:01 am »

I've use Phase One backs on many different bodies in all sorts of conditions.  The only weather related problems I've run into are 1 Hasselblad HC 120mm lens where the shutter got stuck in 40*F weather (heated up by the heater we had and all was fine).  Its really just a matter of the lubricant not holding up well in the cold from time to time and this could happen with any lens/camera.  Other than that batteries never do well in the cold and that is no fault of the camera companies.

I've also used a Leaf Valeo 22 on a fashion shoot on a dirt racetrack.  You can imagine just how much dust was being blow in through the fan holes when the dirt-bikes went by!  Through all of it and afterward, absolutely NO problems with the back... in fact that particular Valeo 22 was probably the most reliable back I've ever used (not that I've found any other backs to be unreliable).
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Don Libby

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MFD in extreme conditions
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2010, 11:45:42 am »

Quote from: fredjeang
Hi Don,
It's funny, when I look at the size and weight of the WRS1000, it makes me wonder about the reputation that had these MF-LF gears. It is smaller and lighter than any serious dslr...
Thanks a lot. (whent in your blog, very informative)

Cheers,

Fred.

Glad I was able to help!  

Don

Carl Glover

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MFD in extreme conditions
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2010, 12:27:35 pm »

I've used a Hy6/e54LV and a Hy6/e75LV combo out in the North Sea in very low temperatures - to keep the water off the camera I used clear plastic bags and elastic bands to keep the camera dry. A UV/skylight filter is essential in those conditions. My gloved fingers gave out before I could find out if the camera did likewise - batteries don't last long in the cold so make sure you have a few on your person.

I've also used the above cameras and backs in Death Valley in August in temperatures above 100 degrees - again no problem with the camera and back. I was suffering far more!

Don Libby

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« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2010, 12:34:44 pm »

Carl - I couldn't agree more.  I seem to suffer more than the gear does whether it's the hot (dry) heat of summer in Arizona or the freezing cold of the Grand Canyon or Yellowstone in winter the gear handles it much better than my body!  

Dick Roadnight

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MFD in extreme conditions
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2010, 12:44:19 pm »

Quote from: archivue
what worked... antartica
Was there  no one there with a Hasselblad?
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Hasselblad H4, Sinar P3 monorail view camera, Schneider Apo-digitar lenses

vandevanterSH

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MFD in extreme conditions
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2010, 12:59:41 pm »

Quote from: Dick Roadnight
Was there  no one there with a Hasselblad?

"There were also ten Phase One backs on a mix of Hasselblads and Phase One / Mamiya cameras, and one Imacon (Hasselblad) back."

Steve
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guyharrison

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MFD in extreme conditions
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2010, 02:28:58 pm »

Fred,

I'm glad my post did not ramble on too long for you but I wanted to give a lot of concrete examples of what this camera can endure.

I demoed a p45+ on my Contax with Capture Integration in Miami both outdoors and in a studio model shoot.  Its connection to the Contax 645 was seamless.  The Contax was actually designed with all the electronic contacts needed to connect with digital backs.  There are no cables needed or anything like that.  It was and still is a very advanced camera in this regard.  Just attach the back, set ISO, and begin shooting.  All of the auto exposure functions and autobracketing work like usual.  In this regard, it is very close to "film" shooting as you just do not have to really think about anything when you are shooting except to check the histogram if you are in doubt.  There are very few settings to fiddle with.  It is a great relief.  The actual image processing work is done in RAW after your shooting is over.

The tethering to C1 also works just fine with the Contax with no glitches and it is great!  

I believe that any of the current phase one backs will connect seamlessly with the Contax.

If you are considering the P65+ I know it will work.

I saw Don's post where he can vouch for the back in pretty extreme conditions similar to what I have experienced.  My vouch will be for the Contax camera/lens system.

I would get in touch with a Phase dealer about a back.  Or, if you feel lucky, you can take your chances on ebay . . .

I won't go on and on about the supreme ergonomics of this camera.  It is legendary and rightly so.  All functions are accessed by direct, positive dials and buttons that fall right to hand with with no repeated pushes or menu systems.  You can operate everything without ever having to take your eye away from the finder.   It is that most rare of things, a camera that is completely intuitive and that "gets out of the way" between you and your image.  I doubt any of the newer electronic MF cameras can come close to its easy functionality.

By comparison, my 5DII is a daunting nightmare that requires constant hovering, double checking, menu-navigating, etc to make sure something is not messing up the shot (still is worth it, and oh that great video . . .but it is not easy to use).

Anyway, right now, I see the Contax as the greatest bargain in digital MF out there.  The lenses and bodies are going at very favorable prices.  The Zeiss lens system is absolutely superb without a weak offering and their 35mm, 120 macro, 350 APO, and 45-90 zoom are some of the finest optical instruments I have ever seen.  They will easily be up to even the p65+ caliber when properly used.

Guy
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fredjeang

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MFD in extreme conditions
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2010, 03:02:02 pm »

Quote from: guyharrison
Fred,

I'm glad my post did not ramble on too long for you but I wanted to give a lot of concrete examples of what this camera can endure.

I demoed a p45+ on my Contax with Capture Integration in Miami both outdoors and in a studio model shoot.  Its connection to the Contax 645 was seamless.  The Contax was actually designed with all the electronic contacts needed to connect with digital backs.  There are no cables needed or anything like that.  It was and still is a very advanced camera in this regard.  Just attach the back, set ISO, and begin shooting.  All of the auto exposure functions and autobracketing work like usual.  In this regard, it is very close to "film" shooting as you just do not have to really think about anything when you are shooting except to check the histogram if you are in doubt.  There are very few settings to fiddle with.  It is a great relief.  The actual image processing work is done in RAW after your shooting is over.

The tethering to C1 also works just fine with the Contax with no glitches and it is great!  

I believe that any of the current phase one backs will connect seamlessly with the Contax.

If you are considering the P65+ I know it will work.

I saw Don's post where he can vouch for the back in pretty extreme conditions similar to what I have experienced.  My vouch will be for the Contax camera/lens system.

I would get in touch with a Phase dealer about a back.  Or, if you feel lucky, you can take your chances on ebay . . .

I won't go on and on about the supreme ergonomics of this camera.  It is legendary and rightly so.  All functions are accessed by direct, positive dials and buttons that fall right to hand with with no repeated pushes or menu systems.  You can operate everything without ever having to take your eye away from the finder.   It is that most rare of things, a camera that is completely intuitive and that "gets out of the way" between you and your image.  I doubt any of the newer electronic MF cameras can come close to its easy functionality.

By comparison, my 5DII is a daunting nightmare that requires constant hovering, double checking, menu-navigating, etc to make sure something is not messing up the shot (still is worth it, and oh that great video . . .but it is not easy to use).

Anyway, right now, I see the Contax as the greatest bargain in digital MF out there.  The lenses and bodies are going at very favorable prices.  The Zeiss lens system is absolutely superb without a weak offering and their 35mm, 120 macro, 350 APO, and 45-90 zoom are some of the finest optical instruments I have ever seen.  They will easily be up to even the p65+ caliber when properly used.

Guy
Thank you Guy.
Yes I was thinking of the P65.
The Contax ergonomic is legendary. You point exactly my feelings about dslr. Too many useless menus, some important function even hidden etc...And the high end models are just quite big and heavy so not that much difference with MF. I just want a camera that has the functions for taking photographies, not more not less. The description you make is just in line with the philosophy and approach I want to work with. For dslr, I'll go to it for the video or a small camera then, like a micro 4/3 or the surprising excelent Pentax KX that I just purchased for certain purpose and happily made some room in my gear for building a MF and LF system.
Your description certainly help me in my choice. The Contax are really bargains here.

An interesting note: I read many times from Ken Rockwell, who has such a "bad" reputation, that he considered the Contax 645 the best ergonomic camera ever made to take pictures. Reading your description and having heard from many users how good it's the design, maybe Ken Rockwell is not as crazy as I thought     I may reread some of his articles.

Cheers,

Fred.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2010, 03:03:15 pm by fredjeang »
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Tomas Johanson

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MFD in extreme conditions
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2010, 04:51:17 pm »

Quote from: fredjeang
Thank you very much Guy for your very helpul post.

The Contax 645 has always a very good reputation among its owners and I'm sure for a good reason. (ergonomics, performance ?) In Madrid, 645 AF body in mint condition are at about 500, 600 euros...
I wonder is there a limitation in conpatibility with the Phase backs, I'm thinking of the Phase FF back because I'd like a full frame back if I can afford.
and if it's also possible to use Sinar backs on the 645 AF with adapter, I think it is.

Experiences from the field are the only ones fully trustable IMO.

Cheers,

Fred.

I have used my Contax for 10 years now, in hot Sahara (with film) and in cold Swedish winter with Sinar back. No problems so far. With the battery grip you get double batteries, when the first are empty you switch to the second one.
When I want a light camera, on my bicycle trips for example, I leave the battery grip at home and use the waist level finder.
My 5DII works but the Contax are much more fun to use.

Tomas


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perjorgen

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MFD in extreme conditions
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2010, 05:04:09 pm »

Quote from: Dick Roadnight
Was there  no one there with a Hasselblad?
I've just been to Antarctica with a H3D-39 (with fan holes) and I didn't experience any problems.
We didn't have too extreme conditions only a few degrees below 0C and only light snow so a protection bag was enough.
One of our traveling companions had a failure of a Canon (below 5D) due to splashes of salt water. The salt water seems to be the greatest risk on a trip to Antarctica.

Doug Peterson

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« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2010, 08:03:07 pm »

Quote from: fredjeang
The Contax 645 has always a very good reputation among its owners and I'm sure for a good reason. (ergonomics, performance ?) In Madrid, 645 AF body in mint condition are at about 500, 600 euros...
I wonder is there a limitation in conpatibility with the Phase backs,

The Contax mount Phase back is absolutely fantastically integrated with the Contax. Even the aesthetics are well matched with the bodies color and lines perfectly extended by the body.

The only limitation is a maximum exposure limit of 32 seconds (I'm out of the office and can't remember for 100% if it's 30 seconds or 32 seconds), and we have a solution for that for $230 that will let you bypass that limit (with a 65+ your long exposure capability is somewhat limited to a minute or so anyway so it's not a huge point - with a 45+ you can exposure for hours so our solution is more important).

Otherwise the P65+ would give you the same speed, framing (no crop) and user interface will be identical shooting to film except that you 1) don't have to change film (a 16gb CF card is a lot of rolls of film!) and 2) you have an LCD for instant review!

Doug Peterson
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