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Author Topic: H3D-50ms vs. P65+  (Read 15653 times)

hubell

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H3D-50ms vs. P65+
« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2010, 10:11:09 pm »

Quote from: Toto
I'm testing the H3D50 against the H3D31 : it's a world of improvement. We cannot compare old sensors with new ones. The 39 MP is an old one. Comparing the 50 MP against the P65+ is not a bad idea : this is two new sensors, and with very close specifications. I think a lot of people are wondering if they will upgrade to the H4D50 or to the H4D60. As we have no real informations about the H4D60, comparing the 50MP sensor with the Dalsa 60 MP would a very valuable information.

Now, I don't buy a test with such bad use of phocus, that at the best we can consider as a mistake. This test looks too much as a response from P1 to the adverse testing from a hassy dealer. Too bad. We know for sure that we have to good brands here, and the differences are to be made on real fact on the system, not by small details that are not really significant.

I agree that the newer chips from Kodak that Hasselblad is using now may be better in certain ways, but I do see the same color artifacts around the tree branches against a bright background(i.e., a blue sky) with the H3D-50MS in the review. This has the newer Kodak 50mp chip. I can't tell about the other issues that I saw with the 39mp chip.

vandevanterSH

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« Reply #21 on: March 06, 2010, 10:29:12 pm »

Quote from: hcubell
I agree that the newer chips from Kodak that Hasselblad is using now may be better in certain ways, but I do see the same color artifacts around the tree branches against a bright background(i.e., a blue sky) with the H3D-50MS in the review. This has the newer Kodak 50mp chip. I can't tell about the other issues that I saw with the 39mp chip.

I have the same issue with my "old" 16 MP square Kodak chip.. I thought it was something that I was doing wrong.

Steve
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TechTalk

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« Reply #22 on: March 06, 2010, 11:26:59 pm »

The link below will take you to an image, on another forum, where the meter accuracy of the Hasselblad H4D-40 can be evaluated. The poster (unlike Mr. Dubovoy) has posted, along with the image, the metadata from the shot. It shows no exposure compensation, just standard aperture priority autoexposure. When exposure compensation is used, it is displayed in the metadata in the "Light Meter" line. According to the poster it is straight out of the camera.

The poster of the image (an australian landscape photographer) is not addressing Mr. Dubovoy's article. He's demonstrating the long exposure capability of the H4D-40. He's posting the metadata to show the exposure time which is in excess of 3 minutes. He is also offering to send the RAW file to whoever wants to see it. If someone is going to critique meter performance, it would be helpful to show at least the metadata to verify the settings used and conclusion being drawn.

Anyway judge for yourself and enjoy a lovely image...

H4D-40 Autoexposure Example Link
« Last Edit: March 06, 2010, 11:46:44 pm by TechTalk »
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Nick-T

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« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2010, 11:28:06 pm »

On first skim read of this review my reaction is that it is pretty poor, I'll try and respond at length in the next few days, work permitting. I will say this. I have been shooting multi-shot commercially for 10 years which is quite a long time. I can say with confidence that for non-moving subjects multi-shot backs outperform single shot backs to the point where comparisons are pointless, I am amazed that the reviewer chose to do such a comparison and deeply skeptical of his findings.
Nick-T
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Khun_K

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« Reply #24 on: March 07, 2010, 02:06:10 am »

I happened to have P65+ on H1/H2, and I also have H3D39 and H3D50, and Sinar backs, I don't usually do such tests such as many does (although I do enjoy reading them), but as a long time Phase user since P25, P45, P45+ then now P65+, I think there is a difference between the backs, but they are all good in some ways than others.  
Software to develop the raw file is as important as who is one the driving seat of a same car, it runs differently.  I think the Phocus is a big improvement from the earlier version, but me too did not spend nearly as much time on Phocus as I spend on Capture One Pro, the biggest reason was probably not because I use P65+ more often - yes, in deed I use the Phase back more often, but the mileage on the software also contributed from my other cameras such as 1Ds3 and 5D2 and Nikon D3X, so the accumulated experience on getting the raw image to process what I like is a lot more than on the Phocus, which I do agree that the first pop on the screen the Phase One shows a richer and punchier display.  It is a preference, rather than which is better.
I don't have experience in H3D50 multi-shot, but even with a Sinar eV75H, just 33 million pixels multi-shot back from what I saw many times, I think it is still better than a single shot from P65+.  
Anyway, today's singe shot back is so good, as the case with the P65+, unless those absolute situations that you really need a multi-shot back (or people with so many years experiences on the multi-shot workflow and jobs require it), it meeds 99% of job requirement.

Regards, K
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David Grover / Capture One

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« Reply #25 on: March 07, 2010, 07:20:32 am »

Quote from: BJNY
Perhaps David Grover would comment on:

A FEW WORDS ABOUT THE SOFTWARE
In the past, one of the common complaints I used to hear from Hasselblad owners was that the CaptureOne
performed all kinds of magic on the files before rendering them as “without any adjustments”,
which wrongly lead people to believe that PhaseOne image quality was better than Hasselblad”.

After working with the Hasselblad software (Phocus) for several weeks,
there is no question in my mind that the situation (at least today) is the exact opposite.
There is a heck of a lot more image processing going on in Phocus than in C1
before an image is displayed (with all adjustments set to zero) in default mode.

It is crystal clear to me that before Phocus displays an image at its default settings,
with “no adjustments”, the software has already applied a large number of adjustments
to lead to a specific look in terms of contrast, color, saturation, clarity and sharpness.
The look is what I would call Velvia double plus.
Imagine the overly saturated and contrasty look of Velvia film and then punch it up not one, but two more notches.
This is what you get in Phocus with “no adjustments”.

While some photographers might like this look (I assume that many Hasselblad owners do),
personally I think it is grossly overdone. The shadows are way too dark, to the point of loosing much detail,
the upper mid-tones and highlights have too much contrast at first and too much compression on the high end;
finally, the color is so exaggerated that it is totally unreal.

There is a “Repro” mode somewhat hidden in the software menus,
which needs to be activated each and every time you open the application if you want to use it (!).
It is supposedly meant for people who need high color accuracy, such as folks making reproductions of fine art.
The very existence of this mode confirms that the software defaults to a specific look,
rather than accuracy or any semblance of “no adjustments”.

Repro mode is definitely more tame, the contrast is much more controlled and it brings back shadow and highlight detail.
In fact, the contrast can often be a little too low. But even in Repro mode the colors and the saturation are quite exaggerated.

As mentioned above, I had the advantage of being able to see the actual objects and compare them to the calibrated EIZO display in my computer,
as well as actual prints under controlled lighting conditions with a GTI Graphics print viewing station,
so the reader will have to trust me on the following comments:

The default mode with no adjustments in CaptureOne renders deadly accurate color and contrast in the PhaseOne images,
both, on the screen and in prints.
With the Hasselblad files, I had to turn on Repro mode, modify the contrast curve, desaturate the colors and adjust hues
before I could come close to matching the real objects either on the screen or in prints.
But even after doing all that, the PhaseOne colors still looked more accurate (perhaps a real expert in Phocus could do better than me).


As usual these kinds of tests are fraught with difficulties.  The comparison has caused lots of debate here and also over on getdpi.

I don't know Mark personally or really have an insight into what he does, but his comments on Phocus applying multiple factors to an image even though defaults are set to zero, simply does not stack up.

Time and time again if you compare and H product to a Phase product normally our default rendering is slightly lower contrast and slightly lower saturation.  No method is 'wrong' it is just the way we have decided to do things.

Therefore for Mark to find the opposite points that something was not quite right with the settings.  Furthermore, stating that Reproduction mode needs to be found every time Phocus is started is also not the case which indicates perhaps Mark was not that comfortable in using Phocus and perhaps did not have everything set to default.

Actually describing the image as Velvia++ really does point to an error somewhere.

Reproduction mode was probably also not his best choice for the kind of images he was shooting.   Secondly to say colours and contrast are even exaggerated in Repro mode really means something was a miss elsewhere!  Mark is welcome to send me one of his files and I can happily look at it.

Nobody should EVER have to desaturate colours in Repro mode.  So I really wonder what Mark did!!!  There must have been all kinds of funky settings going against each other.

There is also a strange comment that Mark said he left Hasselblad because of the closed system argument... and then goes on to praise that aspect of the camera as being much better than Phase One?

I also just noticed that on some of the comparison shots the P65 is at 91.5%?  I would prefer to see both at 100% regardless of any image size differences.

Anyway, I could go on but I am comforted by the fact that many institutions around the world (Tate London, National Gallery, London, Van Gogh Museum, EMMA, Australian Museums / Archives...multiples in the USA) chose Hasselblad Multi Shot systems for a) Color accuracy  Repro mode and c) High resolution without artefacting / moire.

With these kinds of tests I would prefer that an experienced Capture One user handle the Phase side of things and an experienced Phocus user handled Hasselblad.  They wouldn't even have to be in the same room - maybe a blind test would be better!  

Happy weekend to all - I am off out to enjoy the sunshine.


D

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fredjeang

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H3D-50ms vs. P65+
« Reply #26 on: March 07, 2010, 07:51:24 am »

Quote from: David Grover / Hasselblad
As usual these kinds of tests are fraught with difficulties.  The comparison has caused lots of debate here and also over on getdpi.

I don't know Mark personally or really have an insight into what he does, but his comments on Phocus applying multiple factors to an image even though defaults are set to zero, simply does not stack up.

Time and time again if you compare and H product to a Phase product normally our default rendering is slightly lower contrast and slightly lower saturation.  No method is 'wrong' it is just the way we have decided to do things.

Therefore for Mark to find the opposite points that something was not quite right with the settings.  Furthermore, stating that Reproduction mode needs to be found every time Phocus is started is also not the case which indicates perhaps Mark was not that comfortable in using Phocus and perhaps did not have everything set to default.

Actually describing the image as Velvia++ really does point to an error somewhere.

Reproduction mode was probably also not his best choice for the kind of images he was shooting.   Secondly to say colours and contrast are even exaggerated in Repro mode really means something was a miss elsewhere!  Mark is welcome to send me one of his files and I can happily look at it.

Nobody should EVER have to desaturate colours in Repro mode.  So I really wonder what Mark did!!!  There must have been all kinds of funky settings going against each other.

There is also a strange comment that Mark said he left Hasselblad because of the closed system argument... and then goes on to praise that aspect of the camera as being much better than Phase One?

I also just noticed that on some of the comparison shots the P65 is at 91.5%?  I would prefer to see both at 100% regardless of any image size differences.

Anyway, I could go on but I am comforted by the fact that many institutions around the world (Tate London, National Gallery, London, Van Gogh Museum, EMMA, Australian Museums / Archives...multiples in the USA) chose Hasselblad Multi Shot systems for a) Color accuracy  Repro mode and c) High resolution without artefacting / moire.

With these kinds of tests I would prefer that an experienced Capture One user handle the Phase side of things and an experienced Phocus user handled Hasselblad.  They wouldn't even have to be in the same room - maybe a blind test would be better!  
Happy weekend to all - I am off out to enjoy the sunshine.


D
I totaly agree with this David's point, and that would be done in real working sessions conditions. Also, the importance of the images at 100%.
At the end, I find that the debates in the forum generated by these comparaisons (with all my respect to every post of course) always end in an overdose of home made technical and pseudo-scientifical datas but we rarely see arguments supported by images from the field.
Reading these home-made physical tesis, I end (and I'm probably not the only one) more confused than before with a headache.

I've been very surprised, for example, by the passionate reactions on the David's 800 iso samples. But He was kind enough to bring real image here, things that strangely I have not seen from the ones who always critizise, claiming the lack of scientific rigor and want to show how informed they are with graphics and mathematic equations. Some saying how he should have done, then my question is: "why don't they bring that scientific rigor to us here, if they think that the way it has been done was not correct?
I say that with all the respect, but I can also be in strong disagreement and manifests it. What I'm complaining about is not the fact that people critizise or disagree, it is because more real images would be very nice in order to ilustrate the endeless arguments with real datas.
Yes, more images.

Best regards,

Fred.  


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Kitty

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« Reply #27 on: March 07, 2010, 08:54:43 am »

Quote from: David Grover / Hasselblad
Time and time again if you compare and H product to a Phase product normally our default rendering is slightly lower contrast and slightly lower saturation.  No method is 'wrong' it is just the way we have decided to do things.

D

Agree. While I retouch a lot of files from Captureone back less from Phocus.
One thing I could say. Files from Phocus has very special character. Lower contrast, smooth skin tone. It looks like Phocus apply less aggressive sharpening.
Files from Leaf back with old software has the same character to Phocus.

While Phaseone files since v.4 has less aggressive sharpening. You will notice from less halo in high contrast.
Captureone v.5 has minus clarity which might create less macro contrast.

But still Phocus files has the smoothest graduate tone I have ever seen.
I don't know about color reproduction is correct or not. But I like skin color and contrast from Phocus.

I feel sad that Hasselblad choose to closed their system.
I really don't know it is good or bad for their business in long term.
But if I could use Hasselblad back with my H system. I would get one a long long time ago.

IMHO
kitty
« Last Edit: March 07, 2010, 08:57:13 am by Kitty »
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John R Smith

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« Reply #28 on: March 08, 2010, 04:54:16 am »

The comments (and sample) regarding Phocus files in the review are quite bizarre, actually. 3FR files from my CFV-39 back processed via Phocus are certainly not over-saturated with the default settings, quite the reverse. They are pretty neutral, and quite subdued. I don't quite know how you would make them look like the example in the review just as a standard 3FR>FFF>TIFF conversion. Unless the Hass 50MP sensor is outputing something quite different to the 39.

John
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Barry Goyette

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« Reply #29 on: March 09, 2010, 12:56:29 pm »

In addition to the comments about repro mode that didn't make sense, I also found some of the comments regarding the hasselblad in single shot mode simply weird. The first comparison between the Hasselblad's single shot and multi-shot modes was perfectly illustrative of the differences between the two approaches, but then he goes on to say this--

"Based on the color “blotchiness” and the lack of resolution in single shot mode, I would not consider using this camera in anything other than Multishot mode. I hardly need to say this, but the PhaseOne System is far superior to the H3D 50 II in single shot mode, as it never shows any “blotchiness” and has much higher resolution."

Hmmm...well first off, he hasn't shown us a comparison image of the P65 to demonstrate that it "never shows any blotchiness"...but then we scroll down to the bottom comparison of the same newspaper...and there it is...the P65 showing almost exactly the same level of artifacting as the single shot Hasselblad shot from earlier...he even comments on it...although he's certainly more forgiving of the P65 failure in this case--and certainly never says he wouldn't ever use the P65 in single shot mode because of it.

It's hard to imagine how I've managed these past years with all the blotchiness on my H3d-31.

Barry

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Jack Flesher

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« Reply #30 on: March 09, 2010, 01:20:07 pm »

I have no dog in this hunt, and probably shouldn't even post here,  but feel the need to say something.   I have met Mark and can tell you that in addition to being a nice guy, he's definitely an experienced digital imagist -- and I mean the complete process from capture through large print.

I also wanted to take the opportunity to simply agree with a comment Michael made in the closing comment the other post that went way OT:

Quote
There is wide agreement among photographers that use or have used both formats that MF has an advantage of several F/stops in DR versus the small cameras. The precise number will vary depending on the specific camera and back being compared as well as the comparison methodology, but the difference is quite noticeable in actual images.


The key concept (IMO) being from those who have used both formats extensively...

Lastly I admit there seems to be a disconnect between the two camps over semantics.  The electronic engineering world has a very precise definition of what Dynamic Range is, and it relates only to what is output from a digital sensor, ignoring any downstream processes that may enhance the raw signal set to further use. For those of us that came to digital imaging from the wet film side, our definition comes from the total tonal range we see in our final prints.  In fact, the key components of the Zone system were there to fully exploit the total imaging process from capture, to negative development through print processes to lay down the maximum range of tones in a print.  Perhaps we can agree that from a photographic standpoint, the range that matters is the total tonal range that makes it visually into the final print?  

Peace,
« Last Edit: March 09, 2010, 01:32:53 pm by Jack Flesher »
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tho_mas

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« Reply #31 on: March 09, 2010, 01:54:23 pm »

Quote from: Jack Flesher
I also wanted to take the opportunity to simply agree with a comment Michael made in the closing comment the other post
Jack, forget that DR thing. It's boring as hell. I wonder why those who use both don't show the "clear" difference. Michael could. You could. I'd do it in a second... but I simply have no DSLR to do it.
The whole DR debate unfortunately distracted from the fact that also the entire rest of the review is pointless as this "experienced digital imagist" quite obvioulsy didn't know how to work with Phocus.
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eronald

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« Reply #32 on: March 09, 2010, 02:31:41 pm »

I think the review author overreached himself here.

BTW, I own a P45+ and a D3x, and  familiar to a point with both. The "clear difference won't get published because it just ain't so clear once you get into the SLR's hidden menus and morph it from a 12 bit 5fps action camera into a 14 bit 1.8 fps landscape snail, and also choose to record uncompressed files. Of course, a shooter who is not familiar with said SLR will have trouble in finding said menu.

And if you differ, go ahead rent a Nikon and show us, remembering to peg the Raw histogram identically in both captures.
 
Edmund

Quote from: tho_mas
Jack, forget that DR thing. It's boring as hell. I wonder why those who use both don't show the "clear" difference. Michael could. You could. I'd do it in a second... but I simply have no DSLR to do it.
The whole DR debate unfortunately distracted from the fact that also the entire rest of the review is pointless as this "experienced digital imagist" quite obvioulsy didn't know how to work with Phocus.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2010, 02:32:59 pm by eronald »
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tho_mas

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« Reply #33 on: March 09, 2010, 02:40:03 pm »

Quote from: eronald
And if you differ, go ahead rent a Nikon and show us, remembering to peg the Raw histogram identically in both captures.
"you" in general or "you" referring to me personally?
Me I couldn't care less which system offers higher DR. I like what my backs do. But I also found the few RAW files of the D3x I've seen quite impressive.
But again: I don't care that much about DR.

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eronald

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« Reply #34 on: March 09, 2010, 02:57:24 pm »

Quote from: tho_mas
"you" in general or "you" referring to me personally?
Me I couldn't care less which system offers higher DR. I like what my backs do. But I also found the few RAW files of the D3x I've seen quite impressive.
But again: I don't care that much about DR.

you designates anyone who cares - wanna claim a difference, exhibit said difference. Or else admit that indiscernibles are fungible.

Edmund
« Last Edit: March 09, 2010, 02:58:10 pm by eronald »
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tho_mas

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« Reply #35 on: March 09, 2010, 03:11:51 pm »

Quote from: eronald
you designates anyone who cares
got it, thanks!
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eronald

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« Reply #36 on: March 09, 2010, 03:28:06 pm »

Quote from: tho_mas
got it, thanks!

BTW, I have no problem admitting a back will outresolve an SLR and also give a different look. I see this in my images.

Edmund
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Jack Flesher

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« Reply #37 on: March 09, 2010, 04:04:47 pm »

Quote from: tho_mas
You could. I'd do it in a second... but I simply have no DSLR to do it.

FTR, I don't own a DSLR anymore so cannot do it either
« Last Edit: March 09, 2010, 04:06:33 pm by Jack Flesher »
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fredjeang

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« Reply #38 on: March 09, 2010, 04:07:54 pm »

Quote from: Jack Flesher
FTR, I don't own a DSLR anymore (because I hated the files ) so cannot do it either
Jack, I own a DSLR and I also hate the files    
but the way to MFD and LF is expensive and I'm into savings.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2010, 04:22:25 pm by fredjeang »
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tho_mas

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« Reply #39 on: March 09, 2010, 04:08:15 pm »

Quote from: Jack Flesher
FTR, I don't own a DSLR anymore so cannot do it either
 okay
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