IMO

[bcooter]

IMO

With this in mind I find it completely amazing that for a week or so, there were begs, suggestions and pleas to Michael for this section to become the sole domain of medium format "users".  Mostly to stop the comments of anyone that uses use a "35mm camera" and has an opinion, post a result or worse even a comparison.  

So we got a name change and look at the result.

Now the forum has returned to normal, which means it has become the domain of the medium format sales people. At last count I totaled  5 ( Plus Reps),  From Columbia, England, New York,  Miami  and of course Atlanta and we've got vague and not so vague comments from dealers regarding the validity of a test, comparing two medium format cameras, reprocessing of the files and more posting of mediocre photographs than the cover of a London tabloid with a dig or two thrown in at the dslr 35mm set.

(BTW:  Just a  suggestion to anyone that sells cameras.  Please post a pretty photograph.  Sometimes I think it is the goal of every medium format camera dealer in the world to shoot alley's, skies, grey rainy days,  street bums, Grade C models with amateur makeup and hair, fruit and of course the obligatory color chart, just to prove that their $40,000 camera system can show detail even in an ugly photograph.)

Point is this or any section of any forum is never just about that one single title and never will be.

I do respect Michael and his decision to do whatever he wants with his forum, but lately we've seen a exodus of people who actually make a living working with high end cameras and equipment and other than stopping the dslr talk (to some extent) this forum still mentions post processing, storage devices, tripods, lighting pc vs. mac and of course the constant medium format sales message.

Gosh, they've even run off the photographer who was instrumental in designing the Sinar Artech camera because he showed how close the new Canon tilt shifts were to medium format quality.  That had to send a cold chill up the tripod carrying medium format guys, because the mirror up tripod crowd seems to be the last real domain of the expert pixel peepers.

I'd love to see a rename of this section, but not one based on format, just based on high end cameras.  I don't care if someone is an amateur or professional as long as they are working at the highest level their talents and pocketbooks allow.

In fact call it "money talks" because the price of the previous generation medium format back has fallen to around the price of the last generation high end dslr, or name it "any camera that cost more than $5,000".

I think this would bring healthy debate, an exchange of knowledge and of course there will be the brand worshipers, the format pixel peepers and the sales messages to kill the buzz, but at least it won't be exclusionary.

This opens up discussion of how to make the leap from still to video and back, what system is "actually best" for a certain project and how all of these cameras work in real world conditions.

How about keeping the forum open to imagination, like MT's plunger cam, or some guy that does mount a boris tilt shift on a Canon 5d2, or how about a plunger cam video? . . . anything that is not just the normal, constant talk about pixels.

If not just let it run at whatever it's called today and let Phase and Hasselblad dealers beat themselves into oblivion selling to the last 6 landscape photographers trying to desperately prove that their system really is better than the other guys.

Or let the topics range from comparing 8x10 film to a medium format back, or asking about the Hy6 prism.  I hate to bring this up but 8x10 film cameras and hy6 prism's are somewhat dead end systems.  You may like them, but give it another week and you'll see both on the Antique Roadshow.

The funny thing about all of this is the medium format sales people come on here to move product, but if they throw everyone but a medium format back owner out the door, who they gonna sell to?  Maybe each other, cause they all seem to eventually become absorbed or  work for the "competition".

Now that I think of it, maybe it's best to just let nature and Darwin run it's course.

IMO

BC

[Carsten W]

Well, I am no pro, but I do own a >$5000 system, so take my opinion as just that.

I disagree. I don't think that there are signs that anyone has left, apart from James Russell who left when one too many posters complained in the "Recent Professional Works" thread that he was posting 35mm results (sadly, since his posts bothered very few people, given the caliber of his work). I am guessing that Rainer, like many others here, is just taking time off for the holidays. These threads get stressful from time to time, but people usually return after a break, no?

In Rainer's poll thread, I saw a consensus that 35mm has perhaps become a little too common (it drowns out the MF stuff pretty quickly), but that almost no one wanted to see it leave completely. In that sense, when you and gwhitf want to post your comments about 35mm carrying your business, everyone will be reading it as usual. After the previous name change, there was a small boost in the 35mm chatter, since many 35mm FF users consider their cameras to have "large sensors", I guess, but after this change, it will hopefully revert to the previous levels, i.e. it will be mostly about MF and larger, with the occasional comparisons to 35mm and comparisons between lenses of different formats. I personally consider this the best combination of healthy and useful.

Just because a few pros (or even many pros) are using 35mm predominantly is not a good reason to let the 35mm drown out other talk here; this forum was never a pro forum as such, although many pros hang out here, but rather an MF forum. There are other forums for 35mm and for pro talk. Maybe Michael can even add a pro forum here, in case some pros prefer that format, but I think that would run the risk of splitting the forum into two, and thus making it only 1/4 as interesting (as does every other change, including this and the previous name changes).

[Steve Hendrix]

IMO

With this in mind I find it completely amazing that for a week or so, there were begs, suggestions and pleas to Michael for this section to become the sole domain of medium format "users".  Mostly to stop the comments of anyone that uses use a "35mm camera" and has an opinion, post a result or worse even a comparison.  

So we got a name change and look at the result.

Now the forum has returned to normal, which means it has become the domain of the medium format sales people. At last count I totaled  5 ( Plus Reps),  From Columbia, England, New York,  Miami  and of course Atlanta and we've got vague and not so vague comments from dealers regarding the validity of a test, comparing two medium format cameras, reprocessing of the files and more posting of mediocre photographs than the cover of a London tabloid with a dig or two thrown in at the dslr 35mm set.

(BTW:  Just a  suggestion to anyone that sells cameras.  Please post a pretty photograph.  Sometimes I think it is the goal of every medium format camera dealer in the world to shoot alley's, skies, grey rainy days,  street bums, Grade C models with amateur makeup and hair, fruit and of course the obligatory color chart, just to prove that their $40,000 camera system can show detail even in an ugly photograph.)

Point is this or any section of any forum is never just about that one single title and never will be.

I do respect Michael and his decision to do whatever he wants with his forum, but lately we've seen a exodus of people who actually make a living working with high end cameras and equipment and other than stopping the dslr talk (to some extent) this forum still mentions post processing, storage devices, tripods, lighting pc vs. mac and of course the constant medium format sales message.

Gosh, they've even run off the photographer who was instrumental in designing the Sinar Artech camera because he showed how close the new Canon tilt shifts were to medium format quality.  That had to send a cold chill up the tripod carrying medium format guys, because the mirror up tripod crowd seems to be the last real domain of the expert pixel peepers.

I'd love to see a rename of this section, but not one based on format, just based on high end cameras.  I don't care if someone is an amateur or professional as long as they are working at the highest level their talents and pocketbooks allow.

In fact call it "money talks" because the price of the previous generation medium format back has fallen to around the price of the last generation high end dslr, or name it "any camera that cost more than $5,000".

I think this would bring healthy debate, an exchange of knowledge and of course there will be the brand worshipers, the format pixel peepers and the sales messages to kill the buzz, but at least it won't be exclusionary.

This opens up discussion of how to make the leap from still to video and back, what system is "actually best" for a certain project and how all of these cameras work in real world conditions.

How about keeping the forum open to imagination, like MT's plunger cam, or some guy that does mount a boris tilt shift on a Canon 5d2, or how about a plunger cam video? . . . anything that is not just the normal, constant talk about pixels.

If not just let it run at whatever it's called today and let Phase and Hasselblad dealers beat themselves into oblivion selling to the last 6 landscape photographers trying to desperately prove that their system really is better than the other guys.

Or let the topics range from comparing 8x10 film to a medium format back, or asking about the Hy6 prism.  I hate to bring this up but 8x10 film cameras and hy6 prism's are somewhat dead end systems.  You may like them, but give it another week and you'll see both on the Antique Roadshow.

The funny thing about all of this is the medium format sales people come on here to move product, but if they throw everyone but a medium format back owner out the door, who they gonna sell to?  Maybe each other, cause they all seem to eventually become absorbed or  work for the "competition".

Now that I think of it, maybe it's best to just let nature and Darwin run it's course.

IMO

BC

I agree with a lot of this, especially the ugly tests that we do. That is one of the improvements I would like to see from our company in 2010. Let's shoot a test with an image that actually moves people, or at the least, provokes a positive reaction about the image itself.

I also agree with Klaban about the problem that didn't exist and for the record I have never had a problem with the path these threads on this forum have taken, whether 35mm gets mixed in with mf, etc. I don't see where any dealer or rep has made any comment regarding what the title or subject matter of these threads should be. We're not the ones throwing anyone out the door.

The thing I've always liked about LL is that it has been a mix of pros, amateurs, fashion, landscape, architecture, amazing photographers, super amazing photographers, all with opinions, all discussing equipment and images and photography (could probably be more photography discussions, but no one is stopping anyone from that, last I checked).

The best thing is Michael has largely let it police itself and I think most participants have done that pretty well. Sometimes dealers seem more present than at other times, and it feels like a bit of a marketplace, but I feel this is kept mostly in check (except for those darn tests). But if our participation or any of our input is not valued, anyone can certainly tell us to go away.


Steve Hendrix

[rainer_v]

i am not gone, i am not so fast leaving a forum where i have put in so much time, sharing experiences but getting interesting views and opinions as well. but it does not inspire me much, if i get the feeling that i am boring people here because the definition of this forum is only for medium format discussions.
if this forum will run in future ONLY about mf my interest in participating will be very low.
i am  interested in in photography as well as in the tools to get done the job.  mf is ONE part of this, nothing more.
so its interesting for me to read about red cameras, about computer/ software workflow, programs, about optics and most interesting is to have here a forum in which i meet photographers whose work i respect and with whom i can exchange my experiences.
it wont work to cut out here an edge and to open a new "pro" forum, and my interest and my time to jump in 5 different forums is too limited. means i wont participate in one computer, one 35mm one red one mf one whatsever pro forum.
i had found all this here and if this forum will become to narrow in terms of the themes which are discussed i will be gone ...
cause i have other things to do than to make sex with pixels.

about the reps:
what bores me most from the dealers is that they do the hell not to talk about the weak points of their systems, which have been in the past so fundamental that it was needless for me even to think to work withsome of these company/ products,- even if it would not have cost one dollar to do it. never the responsible people have had the character to talk opened about this flaws of their products. this might be understandable, but as long it runs that way i am not too much interested on the rep- opinions and claims,- claims which  often are factual wrong,- somtimes consciently wrong , sometimes because the sellers dont have the time to go deepenough in the problems , which appear if using this gear professional, even if this are their own products.
there is so much hot air spoken .... its sometimes incredible for me. and this hot air mixed with discreeted facts does not make it too interesting for me to discuss these claims. the  way most companies ( and reps ) collect much of their "knowledge" are 100s of opinions of users, but this does not make the things easier cause these opinions have to be weighted in the right way and at this point the problem and the confusion even becomes bigger. this weighting is done too often too wrong .... as it is constantly  shown in what is improved in the products and whats not.

so i would not have a problem if all professional ( and non pro as well ...)  photographers who have experience with medium format, would be invited to be here in this mf forum, and companies dealers and reps would be invited to make their ( advertisement ) claims in another forum.  but i know this is wishfull thinking. what i dont know is whats going on behind the scene which makes it so hopeless even to think in such ......  

[yaya]

IMO

With this in mind I find it completely amazing that for a week or so, there were begs, suggestions and pleas to Michael for this section to become the sole domain of medium format "users".  Mostly to stop the comments of anyone that uses use a "35mm camera" and has an opinion, post a result or worse even a comparison.  

So we got a name change and look at the result.

Now the forum has returned to normal, which means it has become the domain of the medium format sales people. At last count I totaled  5 ( Plus Reps),  From Columbia, England, New York,  Miami  and of course Atlanta and we've got vague and not so vague comments from dealers regarding the validity of a test, comparing two medium format cameras, reprocessing of the files and more posting of mediocre photographs than the cover of a London tabloid with a dig or two thrown in at the dslr 35mm set.

(BTW:  Just a  suggestion to anyone that sells cameras.  Please post a pretty photograph.  Sometimes I think it is the goal of every medium format camera dealer in the world to shoot alley's, skies, grey rainy days,  street bums, Grade C models with amateur makeup and hair, fruit and of course the obligatory color chart, just to prove that their $40,000 camera system can show detail even in an ugly photograph.)

Point is this or any section of any forum is never just about that one single title and never will be.

I do respect Michael and his decision to do whatever he wants with his forum, but lately we've seen a exodus of people who actually make a living working with high end cameras and equipment and other than stopping the dslr talk (to some extent) this forum still mentions post processing, storage devices, tripods, lighting pc vs. mac and of course the constant medium format sales message.

Gosh, they've even run off the photographer who was instrumental in designing the Sinar Artech camera because he showed how close the new Canon tilt shifts were to medium format quality.  That had to send a cold chill up the tripod carrying medium format guys, because the mirror up tripod crowd seems to be the last real domain of the expert pixel peepers.

I'd love to see a rename of this section, but not one based on format, just based on high end cameras.  I don't care if someone is an amateur or professional as long as they are working at the highest level their talents and pocketbooks allow.

In fact call it "money talks" because the price of the previous generation medium format back has fallen to around the price of the last generation high end dslr, or name it "any camera that cost more than $5,000".

I think this would bring healthy debate, an exchange of knowledge and of course there will be the brand worshipers, the format pixel peepers and the sales messages to kill the buzz, but at least it won't be exclusionary.

This opens up discussion of how to make the leap from still to video and back, what system is "actually best" for a certain project and how all of these cameras work in real world conditions.

How about keeping the forum open to imagination, like MT's plunger cam, or some guy that does mount a boris tilt shift on a Canon 5d2, or how about a plunger cam video? . . . anything that is not just the normal, constant talk about pixels.

If not just let it run at whatever it's called today and let Phase and Hasselblad dealers beat themselves into oblivion selling to the last 6 landscape photographers trying to desperately prove that their system really is better than the other guys.

Or let the topics range from comparing 8x10 film to a medium format back, or asking about the Hy6 prism.  I hate to bring this up but 8x10 film cameras and hy6 prism's are somewhat dead end systems.  You may like them, but give it another week and you'll see both on the Antique Roadshow.

The funny thing about all of this is the medium format sales people come on here to move product, but if they throw everyone but a medium format back owner out the door, who they gonna sell to?  Maybe each other, cause they all seem to eventually become absorbed or  work for the "competition".

Now that I think of it, maybe it's best to just let nature and Darwin run it's course.

IMO

BC

Many good points however I think that the current reality is that:

Many pros are/ were busy with end-of-year rush to make a buck, with less time to read/ post
Many pros have given up on trying to squeeze the last buck out of 2009 and have taken off on (hopefully) a nice holiday
Many pros who have made a buck in 2009 are busy shopping 'cause their accountant said they need to offload some cash.
Many dealers/ reps are busy with end-of-year rush to make a buck and as they (we) see these boards as another vehicle, we take the time to post

To be honest I did not notice the name change until it was discussed, after the event...

I test a lot of kit, of all shapes and sizes, for personal "education", for learning the competition, for providing input to the developers and for being able to provide samples to prospects.

I never post images from competing products in public. I am not afraid of confronting and/ or challenging others in public and at times it means bringing up the disadvantages of the other guy...that's life...not always pretty and not always easy either...

There are many different profiles of photographers. Some choose system A over system B or format X over format Y. Some choose to use A and B or A, X and Y.

One thing we all need to be aware of is that there are a lot of photographs being taken "for money" by photographers who do not visit these boards and who represent profiles of what has nothing to do with what we would usually call "pro".

These people/ companies/ institutes buy and use high-end kit and will continue to do so because they need its certain capabilities. These people will often need continuos support from the manufacturer and/ or the dealer and will continue to buy new kit every 2-3 years.

I do agree that often the dealer-user ratio gets bent here but I would not blame the dealers for it. Although it might help if everyone's signature took less than half a page...one line: full or nick name and a website (or just the basic contacts of there's no website)

HNY everyone

Y

[pcunite]

If MFD digital wants to encourage buyers into its systems it is going to have to use another marketing message besides "better" or even "best" image quality.

That line would have won me over in a heart beat were it not for the prices. The prices caused me to verify and look into these statements from a business point of view and not as an artist.

What is interesting is that it was not the price of MFD that is causing most of us to avoid the system. It is the workflow. What is even more interesting is the constant threads on this subject because of MFD proponents insulting the 35mm user base. If MFD will not insult 35mm but rather embrace them, and then honestly state the difference you will get sales and they will be honest sales... or is that not your intent?

When you set about to prove MFD is a better system, please show us via some other way besides 100% crops because that is not how I sell images. I don't show customers 100% crops to get work. Also please don't tell me the colors look better in print and you can't really tell on a monitor, because the way I get new customers is via them looking at my work on their crappy laptop monitors.

For the record, I know MFD is a better file, I know MFD is a better file, I know MFD is a better file.

[Mark_Tuttle]

It seems national wars have been started over less substance than this scuffle, so perhaps the easiest solution is to create an "open" forum, called anything (like "Post No Animal If You Own It, and No Human If You Are Related"?) but "Medium Format/ Film? Digital Backs - and Large Sensor Photography" and allow people like Rainer, James and Mark among other excellent photographers here to post whatever.  A fair bit more informational, entertaining, and thought provoking.

IMHO

[Rob C]

Simply as opinion, I'd say that too tight a category definition makes for boredom, as some have suggested here in this debate already. One of the productive things about loose editing/categorising of content type is the fertility of the ground that opens up. Something that starts up as one thing gets talked through and then develops into a further conversation about something else - all good grist to that mill.

Why would anyone want more restrictions? Isn't life already too full of the damn things? Frankly, the more you hear about something, the more you get to know about it, as long as what you hear is good stuff; that is probably self-governing on this site as enough people know enough to shoot rubbish out of the sky just as soon as it shows itself. On that theme, isn't is odd that people are perfectly willing to contradict, disparage and prove somebody mistaken on matters technical, but come over all bashful when it comes to telling the truth about some truly rotten photographs? Are we all afraid of it becoming  our turn next?

Happy New Year

Rob C

[Plekto]

It was fine before.  I don't comprehend why he changed it other than to maybe placate and stop being inundated with whining and complaints from a few very vocal people here.

Part of the problem as well is that the entire industry has apparently hit a wall.  For a couple of decades there was something new coming out every year, but this last year or two it's been just minor tweaks to already existing product lines.  As such a lot of people haven't really left so much as gone on to do other things for a while rather than posting here(like work extrra hours now that the economy is bad).

[Mr. Rib]

I have to say that from the time I've started reading the topics in this section (and later on started posting) I learned so many things that I feel a bit in debt to Michael for creating this forum and for all of guys that share their knowledge. I know that if I have a problem with a project or I don't know how to do something and I want to get some info from reliable source, this section is the place to go. And for 35mm matter- recent development of 35mm DSLR is really astounding and it's quality standards have vastly improved over the last few years. I think there are two main reasons why there should be no intervention of admins- first is that many MF users should have a reliable insight on rapidly developing 35mm and it's workflow, because they may find it beneficial for their work. For some, MF may be a worse solution than 35mm and a wider spectrum of threads (some 35mm vs mf comparisons, some info on 35mm lenses etc) may encourage them to try the other format. Second reason is what BC mentioned- if there are no participants that don't own MFDB systems, then what- MF should just circle around the current market users discouraging potential new clients? That's the same thing as stating that we are dinosaurs, doomed and waiting for extinction.
I found Rainer's TSE lenses test and later debate very insightful. "Becoming architecture photographer" topic series was great. There's nothing bad in 5DMK2 / D3X showing up from time to time. Don't kill this forum.

[AndreNapier]

I stopped posting several months ago because as addictive as it is was it also caused its share of stress. I felt that my contribution was lost in the countless pages of constant meaningless wars of MFD vs DSLR. I felt that it did not benefit nobody and it was taking time away from me being a productive photog.
I still check LL LF time to time but find it less and less informative or creatively stimulating.

Andre Napier
http://AndreNapier.com

[Mr. Rib]

It's very easy to filter out this stuff if one finds it disturbing. Counting in all the flame wars, in my case it's still more than worth it. Oh and BCooter makes my day with his contribution to MF vs 35 war  

[lisa_r]

At the risk of repeating myself I will say these two things:

Micheal,

1. I believe the forums should be separated by what is in front of the lens (i.e., landscapes, fashion, portraiture, travel, etc. as opposed to by what is behind the lens.) I believe the contributors in the various sections would have more in common then, and perhaps more useful info to share with one another. IMO just because I have a similar camera as the next guy does not mean that we have a lot to share - aside from talking about the cameras themselves...
Doesn't just about every professional have various formats? I think the separation by cameras types is the more gear head/amateur approach. Just my humble opinion.

2. I believe that the vendors here should have VENDOR clearly visible in their profile to the left of the forum entries, so we all know what's what here. It just feels very sketchy not knowing who is selling things and who is not.

[Jeremy Payne]

The funny thing about all of this is the medium format sales people come on here to move product, but if they throw everyone but a medium format back owner out the door, who they gonna sell to?  Maybe each other, cause they all seem to eventually become absorbed or  work for the "competition".

It is similar to (misguided) efforts to ban short sellers from capital markets ... when the only market participants are long or about to be long, you only get half the story ... short-sellers keep everyone honest.

[pschefz]

wasn't aware of a problem and still not sure what the actual problem is? so the forum was renamed? again?

this section of the LL forum is pretty much the only corner of the internets i visit to either ask or offer opinion about issues regarding photography and the way i work....over time some details change (which camera, which light, which computer) but the questions remain similar....how to deal with the workflow, what new gadgets, which accessory works best....this is the part of the forum where i can do this....i know that posting specific questions in the computer section won't get the answers i need because the people whose opinions i look for don't have the time to check every section of the forum to see if i had a question...and i don't really look around that much either...this is the place where i can read and relate to stories i am interested in....

dslr vs mf discussions have been a HUGE part of this whole forum for...ever...and as technology advances they won't go anywhere....who knows what cameras we will compare in 2 years? we are all gear heads...


i am all for a PURE mf section, but this one already chooses its own subjects, no matter what you want to name it....so maybe some people have to read over threads they are not interested in or demand another section or maybe they will succeed in driving interesting discussion out of this one.....

i don't offer my opinion about gear and my personal experiences with gear to belittle or ridicule anyone else....but i know i can help some people save money and time if they have open ears and eyes....and unlike other people here, i have absolutely 0 interest in selling one brand over the other....

anyway...i have a feeling nothing will change anyway....

best to everybody and their families for the new year....it will be interesting....

this should also be a time to reflect on a very interesting and strange decade that i haven't heard a good name for yet....

[lisa_r]

this should also be a time to reflect on a very interesting and strange decade that i haven't heard a good name for yet....

Just today I heard "the naughties."

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/naught

[Murray Fredericks]

i am not gone, i am not so fast leaving a forum where i have put in so much time, sharing experiences but getting interesting views and opinions as well. but it does not inspire me much, if i get the feeling that i am boring people here because the definition of this forum is only for medium format discussions.

Hi Rainer,

you are NOT boring people and your input is always valued and respected!

Murray

[Mr. Rib]

I definitely second that.

[feppe]

1. I believe the forums should be separated by what is in front of the lens (i.e., landscapes, fashion, portraiture, travel, etc. as opposed to by what is behind the lens.) I believe the contributors in the various sections would have more in common then, and perhaps more useful info to share with one another. IMO just because I have a similar camera as the next guy does not mean that we have a lot to share - aside from talking about the cameras themselves...
Doesn't just about every professional have various formats? I think the separation by cameras types is the more gear head/amateur approach. Just my humble opinion.

2. I believe that the vendors here should have VENDOR clearly visible in their profile to the left of the forum entries, so we all know what's what here. It just feels very sketchy not knowing who is selling things and who is not.

Agreed on both, but especially on 1st point. Having the subforums named after formats, lenses and other assorted gear just further encourages measurebators, pixel peepers and other gear geeks* to concentrate on what should be merely peripheral aspects of photography - or at least not 99% of the discussion as it is now.

Then again, the only forum devoted to photography as an art is the quietest one, so I'm not holding my breath

* I'm all of the above to a certain extent.

[rainer_v]

Hi Rainer,

you are NOT boring people and your input is always valued and respected!

Murray

hi murray,
thank you.
in fact i dont feel "not wanted" here at all, but what i mean is that i dont enter forums which clearly exclude certain themes with exactly this themes.
i dont do the same with singular treads, someone called it hitch-hiking treads or forums... like that expression.
i.m.o. MR should go back to the naming as it was before, everything was right as it was.