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Author Topic: new MF back for photokina  (Read 64695 times)

BernardLanguillier

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« Reply #80 on: June 25, 2008, 01:08:42 am »

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And if true, who will be the first to break the barriers, and model not on the past but on the future - and take the risk in cutting costs to expand market share? 

Do we think that market share would double for a MF digital back maker is the costs were.... $10-12k? Look ath the Hassy now in that light. They are picking up the mantle. Who might be next?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203484\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hasn't Mamiya already captured that niche?

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Bernard

James R Russell

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« Reply #81 on: June 25, 2008, 01:27:28 am »

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Hasn't Mamiya already captured that niche?

Regards,
Bernard
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From everyone I knew that tried the Mamiya in a professional setting it was hobbled.

It didn't tether well, the lcd was the weakest of the weak, the buffer was very limited and it was also limited to low iso.

On paper the whole idea looked good and I thought would probably move the other makers to compete, but if anything  it gave the other back makers more justification for their pricing.

JR
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marc gerritsen

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« Reply #82 on: June 25, 2008, 03:56:06 am »

I would rather have no features at all
now that is a must have feature for me.
these days everything is so bomb full of features I am sick of it
I only use about 5% of my phone, my remote, my camera and maybe even my fridge
and i still have to pay for all the research and development for all the wistles
and bells.

therefor i wish for a manual camera system with only auto focus as it's main "feature"

m*
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yaya

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« Reply #83 on: June 25, 2008, 04:35:02 am »

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Does it revolve?  By which I mean, can you change orientation without removing the back from the camera?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203466\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

AFAIK it is bolted to the camera in horizontal position as this solution was designed by Rollei-Metric for specific purposes, you'll probably have to send it to the factory to change orientation, if that is at all possible.

Yair
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Tim Lüdin

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« Reply #84 on: June 25, 2008, 06:17:15 am »

As an owner of the RED-One camera I came to similar thoughts like TMARK.
I think in the near future still and video will merge. This wont be the case for high end fashion or advertising but for all the other smaller projects that many times just end up on the web or small print.
I still cant believe how good the still frames of the RED are. You get a 40MB Tiff still frame out of this baby. I printed it A3 and it looks very good.
It was an eyeopener when I first saw it.

Sometimes I think that the MFDB makers are all sleeping.
A full RED package costs around 30K and you can put your still lenses on it.
The LCD is killer also in bright sunlight. The cam shoots 120 fps in 2K and 60fps in full 4K.
Next year there will be the "epic" (RED2). This baby will shoot 100 fps in 5K.
Now think about our MFDB for a second. How fast are they shooting again?
Again you can get a 40MB Tiff file out of just one damn RED frame.

The MFDB makers got to wake up and bring some new tech or they wont be here for long.
This business will get tougher and tougher for all of us.
I can see people running  around with video cams filming and shooting still frames at the same time. Selecting what they need at home at their computers.
A few years and we are there.

Now dont start arguing  about art, framing and lighting. I'm just talking tech here.
But everyone can think for them self how this will influence our way of work.
And how this will change a whole industry.

RED is changing the film industry at the moment. They wont stop there...

Tim
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dlew308

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« Reply #85 on: June 25, 2008, 06:51:57 am »

Speaking of the RED One,  my friend showed me this last night

http://www.cinematography.com/forum2004/in...opic=31211&st=0


Quote
As an owner of the RED-One camera I came to similar thoughts like TMARK.
I think in the near future still and video will merge. This wont be the case for high end fashion or advertising but for all the other smaller projects that many times just end up on the web or small print.
I still cant believe how good the still frames of the RED are. You get a 40MB Tiff still frame out of this baby. I printed it A3 and it looks very good.
It was an eyeopener when I first saw it.

Sometimes I think that the MFDB makers are all sleeping.
A full RED package costs around 30K and you can put your still lenses on it.
The LCD is killer also in bright sunlight. The cam shoots 120 fps in 2K and 60fps in full 4K.
Next year there will be the "epic" (RED2). This baby will shoot 100 fps in 5K.
Now think about our MFDB for a second. How fast are they shooting again?
Again you can get a 40MB Tiff file out of just one damn RED frame.

The MFDB makers got to wake up and bring some new tech or they wont be here for long.
This business will get tougher and tougher for all of us.
I can see people running  around with video cams filming and shooting still frames at the same time. Selecting what they need at home at their computers.
A few years and we are there.

Now dont start arguing  about art, framing and lighting. I'm just talking tech here.
But everyone can think for them self how this will influence our way of work.
And how this will change a whole industry.

RED is changing the film industry at the moment. They wont stop there...

Tim
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203530\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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David Lew
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eronald

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« Reply #86 on: June 25, 2008, 07:01:16 am »

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Exactly, and thank you!  (There was no offense intended in my original post, sorry you read it that way.)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203382\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I had no trouble focusing my Canon in the shadows with my bad eyes - but the Mamiya is hard. Oh - wait, maybe the F1.2 lens on the Mamiya is a bit brighter ?

Edmund
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Tim Lüdin

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« Reply #87 on: June 25, 2008, 07:07:18 am »

Yeah, the RED one is beeing used on many Hollywood movies at the moment.
Right now Steven Soderbergh is shooting with Matt Damon all on RED.
Sorry dont wanted to high jack the thread.
Just wanted to point out, that there's new high tech stuff out there that puts the todays MFDB offerings in a total new light.
I think the whole picture/movie making industry is changing so rapidly at the moment, it's crazy.
And we are right in the middle. Not always knowing which way to go or to invest.
Interesting times.

Tim
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yaya

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« Reply #88 on: June 25, 2008, 07:52:07 am »

Quote
As an owner of the RED-One camera I came to similar thoughts like TMARK.
I think in the near future still and video will merge. This wont be the case for high end fashion or advertising but for all the other smaller projects that many times just end up on the web or small print.
I still cant believe how good the still frames of the RED are. You get a 40MB Tiff still frame out of this baby. I printed it A3 and it looks very good.
It was an eyeopener when I first saw it.

Sometimes I think that the MFDB makers are all sleeping.
A full RED package costs around 30K and you can put your still lenses on it.
The LCD is killer also in bright sunlight. The cam shoots 120 fps in 2K and 60fps in full 4K.
Next year there will be the "epic" (RED2). This baby will shoot 100 fps in 5K.
Now think about our MFDB for a second. How fast are they shooting again?
Again you can get a 40MB Tiff file out of just one damn RED frame.

The MFDB makers got to wake up and bring some new tech or they wont be here for long.
This business will get tougher and tougher for all of us.
I can see people running  around with video cams filming and shooting still frames at the same time. Selecting what they need at home at their computers.
A few years and we are there.

Now dont start arguing  about art, framing and lighting. I'm just talking tech here.
But everyone can think for them self how this will influence our way of work.
And how this will change a whole industry.

RED is changing the film industry at the moment. They wont stop there...

Tim
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203530\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Tim this can become a very interesting discussion and I think it deserves a new thread.

You are cleverly separating the technical side from the art etc. but I think that these two sides will have to work together as they will for sure affect one another.

I have spent the last 5 days on a big production set where they are filming a new ad campaign, all shot on an ArriMax 35mm. This is a fairly new ground for me and I'm learning something new every day.

However there's an AFi7 there that is located next to the Arri and that is used for capturing as many images as possible during each take, that involves with allot of special effects and difficult lighting conditions, meaning mostly wide open at 400iso
Each take is about 40 seconds and at the moment it looks like the AFi7 is the only capturing device that can produce a minimum of 30 usable frames (usable as in sharp) over 40 seconds sessions and that can be edited/ picked into high quality inkjet posters. No other system would have given us a decent amount of 95MB frames to work from.

This could be where a future RED will be able to do both, but I have doubts as to the usability and the image quality/ size of the images, assuming that stills technology is also going to move forward.

The same AFi7 camera is also used for capturing high-speed motion (think explosions) at 1/500-1/1000 with flash. I cannot see how a 1/100 camera at 5K can achieve this.

Yair
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Tim Lüdin

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« Reply #89 on: June 25, 2008, 09:57:10 am »

Yair

You are right. We probably have to start a new thread about  that topic.
I think soon we will have to talk about that kinda stuff.
Dont get me wrong here. I love MFDBs. I'm right on the fence of buying into a system.
But the longer I use my RED on my cinematography stuff, the more I can smell the future and I start comparing stuff. What gives you the most bang for the buck etc.
If I didn't buy the RED I would already have a new 39Blad.
Now I got the 1Ds3 and the RED. So I can produce great pictures in both fields.
The upgrade to the Blad would easily cost about 50K. About the same as the RED package.

Video and still will merge. It wont take another 10 years for that. Maybe 3.

Tim
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TMARK

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« Reply #90 on: June 25, 2008, 10:25:10 am »

Quote
Yair

You are right. We probably have to start a new thread about  that topic.
I think soon we will have to talk about that kinda stuff.
Dont get me wrong here. I love MFDBs. I'm right on the fence of buying into a system.
But the longer I use my RED on my cinematography stuff, the more I can smell the future and I start comparing stuff. What gives you the most bang for the buck etc.
If I didn't buy the RED I would already have a new 39Blad.
Now I got the 1Ds3 and the RED. So I can produce great pictures in both fields.
The upgrade to the Blad would easily cost about 50K. About the same as the RED package.

Video and still will merge. It wont take another 10 years for that. Maybe 3.

Tim
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203570\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Seeing the Sony and Red stills was an eye opener for me.  It was, to say the least, an epiphany.  I think trying to pull the right still from a few hundred thousand frames would be stupid, you would be relying on luck for your composition.  There is also a different feel (for the subject) with stills than with motion that translates to the image.  I think a Red camera with an enhanced definition stills function would be the bees knees.  You could shoot your motion, then using the same setup shoot the stills, maybe bring in strobes, maybe change the lighting to something more or less dramatic etc.  I've worked as a lighting director for films/videos and I grew up on sound stages.  The prospect of getting back to that is exciting.
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dustblue

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« Reply #91 on: June 25, 2008, 10:32:22 am »

If cinematography doen't need larger sensor, I think 12mp is the limit. The diffraction
affects the image quality at f8, and more pixels beyond 12-13mp is simply useless. So we can imagine maybe the frame pulled from a red one(or a future epic) is something similar to a nikon D300 or sony a700 or anything like that. And I dont think a D300 equivalence will suit the ads campaign or high fashion needs,therefore a full frame Dslr(with a pixels limitation of 30mp at f8 ) or bigger MFDB(with a pixels limitation of 60mp at f8) will survive.

Dustblue

Quote
Yair

You are right. We probably have to start a new thread about  that topic.
I think soon we will have to talk about that kinda stuff.
Dont get me wrong here. I love MFDBs. I'm right on the fence of buying into a system.
But the longer I use my RED on my cinematography stuff, the more I can smell the future and I start comparing stuff. What gives you the most bang for the buck etc.
If I didn't buy the RED I would already have a new 39Blad.
Now I got the 1Ds3 and the RED. So I can produce great pictures in both fields.
The upgrade to the Blad would easily cost about 50K. About the same as the RED package.

Video and still will merge. It wont take another 10 years for that. Maybe 3.

Tim
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203570\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

bryanyc

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« Reply #92 on: June 25, 2008, 10:36:34 am »

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Pretty simple answer to this, Eric: to get a good LCD/screen/display is not a problem. The price you have to pay for it when ordering only a few thousands of it is another thing, at least up to now.

Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203477\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

So, that seems to be an acknowledgement that the lcd's on $2000 cameras are better than on $20,000. cameras!  And this is just the problem.  When you pay 10x more you kind of expect at least equal quality and ease of use.  Perhaps then a solution is to work with those who purchase gazillions of lcd's or be creative and come up with an ipod touch solution.  Cost of unit with drop dead gorgeous screen with touch capacitance: less than $300.   Wait a second- $300 for a screen, processor, battery and la de da?   Huh.  Somehow it makes you think you could get a similar screen, even in small numbers, for about that same $300 as the entire ipod touch- or just buy the touch and disassemble it!
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James R Russell

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« Reply #93 on: June 25, 2008, 10:40:55 am »

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AFAIK it is bolted to the camera in horizontal position as this solution was designed by Rollei-Metric for specific purposes, you'll probably have to send it to the factory to change orientation, if that is at all possible.

Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203523\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


What would Rollei charge if they just brought a technician to your set and everytime you had to go from verticle to horizontal he/she adjusted the orientation?

JR
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thsinar

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« Reply #94 on: June 25, 2008, 10:42:07 am »

Bryan,

If it would be that easy and simple as you put it ....

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
So, that seems to be an acknowledgement that the lcd's on $2000 cameras are better than on $20,000. cameras!  And this is just the problem.  When you pay 10x more you kind of expect at least equal quality and ease of use.  Perhaps then a solution is to work with those who purchase gazillions of lcd's or be creative and come up with an ipod touch solution.  Cost of unit with drop dead gorgeous screen with touch capacitance: less than $300.   Wait a second- $300 for a screen, processor, battery and la de da?   Huh.  Somehow it makes you think you could get a similar screen, even in small numbers, for about that same $300 as the entire ipod touch- or just buy the touch and disassemble it!
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Thierry Hagenauer
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TMARK

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« Reply #95 on: June 25, 2008, 10:56:18 am »

Quote
If cinematography doen't need larger sensor, I think 12mp is the limit. The diffraction
affects the image quality at f8, and more pixels beyond 12-13mp is simply useless. So we can imagine maybe the frame pulled from a red one(or a future epic) is something similar to a nikon D300 or sony a700 or anything like that. And I dont think a D300 equivalence will suit the ads campaign or high fashion needs,therefore a full frame Dslr(with a pixels limitation of 30mp at f8 ) or bigger MFDB(with a pixels limitation of 60mp at f8) will survive.

Dustblue
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203574\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

To get over this problem they could use a larger sensor in the camera and mask it off for cinema and unmask it for stills.  Even if they are different cameras, I think that video production will be a major part of my work in a few years, and in fact, I'm thinking that us fashion/catalogue/studio guys can leverage our production skills for pure film production, providing another revenue stream.  I've always sort of run my shoots like a film shoot, roughing in lights, a little rehearsal, blocking shots, marks etc.  Much of the production work is the same, so why not produce video/film?
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bryanyc

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« Reply #96 on: June 25, 2008, 11:01:53 am »

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« Last Edit: June 25, 2008, 11:03:47 am by bryanyc »
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203

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« Reply #97 on: June 25, 2008, 11:11:03 am »

I will be preparing myself for the transformation to video a little early by shooting some model videos over the 4th of July weekend, something like Greg Kadel does:

http://www.gregkadelstudios.com/films/elise.html

http://www.gregkadelstudios.com/films/eugenia.html

Anyone use one of those video camera attachments for narrow DOF which they would recommend?

And by the way, you want to see some really nice work being done with Phase backs, check out the rest of his site:
http://www.gregkadelstudios.com/women/

(when I said a couple weeks ago that I do not see my heroes on the web forums talking 200% pixel peeps, he is one of the dudes I was referring to. He buys the back, and then kicks ass with it!)
« Last Edit: June 25, 2008, 11:18:17 am by 203 »
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TMARK

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« Reply #98 on: June 25, 2008, 11:28:00 am »

Quote
I will be preparing myself for the transformation to video a little early by shooting some model videos over the 4th of July weekend, something like Greg Kadel does:

http://www.gregkadelstudios.com/films/elise.html

http://www.gregkadelstudios.com/films/eugenia.html

Anyone use one of those video camera attachments for narrow DOF which they would recommend?

And by the way, you want to see some really nice work being done with Phase backs, check out the rest of his site:
http://www.gregkadelstudios.com/women/

(when I said a couple weeks ago that I do not see my heroes on the web forums talking 200% pixel peeps, he is one of the dudes I was referring to. He buys the back, and then kicks ass with it!)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203587\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I haven't used them, but a guy I've worked with likes the Redrock.  The Letus seems pretty good as well.

As to pixel peeping and all the nonsense, you are absolutely correct.  It seems that too many people have their egos wrapped up in their gear.  Speaking of kicking ass, my friend who beat me out on a Bergdorf shoot kicks ass with her 5d, Mamiya AF with one 80mm lens.  She's never visited a forum in her life!
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203

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« Reply #99 on: June 25, 2008, 11:35:50 am »

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I haven't used them, but a guy I've worked with likes the Redrock.  The Letus seems pretty good as well.

As to pixel peeping and all the nonsense, you are absolutely correct.  It seems that too many people have their egos wrapped up in their gear.  Speaking of kicking ass, my friend who beat me out on a Bergdorf shoot kicks ass with her 5d, Mamiya AF with one 80mm lens.  She's never visited a forum in her life!
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thanks, I'll look into those adapters.

Does your friend photographer have a site?? I'd love to see her work. I work with some art directors who work with Bergdorfs, but I have not gotten into their catalog yet. Two of my friends have though, [a href=\"http://christophergriffith.com/]Christopher Griffith[/url] and Bharat Sikka.

Cheers.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2008, 11:44:34 am by 203 »
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