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Author Topic: Your camera definately,still,does NOT matter!!!  (Read 68233 times)

Jonathan Wienke

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Your camera definately,still,does NOT matter!!!
« Reply #80 on: April 06, 2008, 09:48:39 pm »

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I am the one that started these....seemingly never ending ...threads as a rebuttal to MR's rebuttal. I will have little else to say on the matter , as it seems it will just not get through to most....Anyway, the conversation is boring.
I'll sum up my P.O.V.
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I had a look at pics and links by members that supported the view that the camera matters. They were mostly mediocre, unoriginal and..well...stillborn. I suppose that they WISH for the day that they CAN buy something that will make their art better (zzzzz...keep dreaming).


You appear to have comprehension problems as well. I've stated numerous times that there are many situations where the choice between 2 cameras makes very little difference. You've supplied some examples of that. Great. There are other situations where the camera matters quite a bit. Try shooting concerts in available darkness with a Kodak DC-4800, or eagles in flight with your Voigtlander with the 12mm lens. Or ski jumping with an 8x10 view camera. Here's another example of a situation where the camera mattered:



I shot this image handheld at ISO 1600. I was visiting a Weinnachtmarkt (Christmas Market) at Burg Lichtenburg, a castle near Kusel, Germany. It was well after dark, and I was walking around photographing things by the light of the floodlights that lit portions of the grounds. There was a full moon, and it was partly cloudy. It was sufficiently dark that even at ISO 1600 and the lens wide open at f/2.8, I could only get a 1/15 shutter speed. When I saw the girl standing looking at the moon, I decided to try to get some images. She was only there for a few seconds; there was no time to try to set up a tripod. And even with the lens wide open and the highest available ISO setting, the shutter speed was barely hand-holdable. But because the camera had a fast lens and high ISO capability, and autofocus that works well even in such dim lighting, I was able to take advantage of the opportunity and shoot a few frames before she left. If I had used a typical digicam, it would have still been hunting for focus when the girl turned to leave, and with the ISO limitations of most such cameras, the image would probably have been either significantly obscured by noise out of focus, or unacceptably motion blurred. Even a lesser DSLR would have made getting the shot significantly more difficult.

Better gear isn't going to improve the artistic vision of a photographer, but better gear will allow a photographer to achieve his or her artistic vision without imposing its limitations on the process to as great of a degree. Better gear can also significantly increase the odds of getting a shot that is only available for a moment or two and cannot be repeated (there are lots of these at a wedding, for example). When you have a paying client's expectations riding on capturing such shots consistently, and the prospect of getting repeat business from that client as well, the true issues of this debate snap into focus. An amateur shooting for fun can afford to spend extra time setting up a tripod because his camera can't manage a fast enough shutter speed to shot handheld, and if he misses a shot, it's not that big of a deal. An amateur doesn't have to worry about the client wanting to make a poster out of the shot, and wanting enough resolution and low enough noise so that the texture of the clothing on the model or in the surface of the product isn't obscured. Professionals can't afford the luxury of wasting unnecessary time during a shoot, especially when models, hairstylists, makeup artists, etc. are involved. And better gear can mean spending far less time post-processing after the shoot dealing with chromatic aberrations, color correction, noise reduction, and other technical shortcomings of the camera and lens. Better gear can make the difference between meeting the client's expectations or a deadline, or not. Better gear can make the difference between getting repeat business or not. Better gear can make the difference between paying bills or not. And if that doesn't matter, then what does?
« Last Edit: April 06, 2008, 09:52:03 pm by Jonathan Wienke »
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mrleonard

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Your camera definately,still,does NOT matter!!!
« Reply #81 on: April 06, 2008, 10:13:48 pm »

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And if that doesn't matter, then what does?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=187539\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well..as I've said...ART. Everything else  done with a camera is uninteresting. I am also a professional and pay my bills with a camera. Better gear definately does NOT gaurantee any better a chance of taking a good photo at a wedding,or one that is even worthy of making poster size....the details don't matter. I only bother with pro gear because clients  then feel more secure..ie..that they are paying for the best. The techinical  limitations of a camera are ,in fact,not a creative limitation...the opposite is true. The better art is usually one that pushes out on it's frame....that is exploding out of it's context. That photo  of yours is just o.k...I dont see what the camera has to do with it. You're hung up on the trees and cant see the forest, y'dig?
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Nick Rains

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Your camera definately,still,does NOT matter!!!
« Reply #82 on: April 06, 2008, 10:37:48 pm »

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I only bother with pro gear because clients  then feel more secure..ie..that they are paying for the best.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=187545\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Good for you. Just why do you think your clients are so insecure?
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Nick Rains
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Ray

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« Reply #83 on: April 06, 2008, 10:39:16 pm »

We'll just have to agree to disagree, Jonathan. Ken's article was a piece of rhetoric and was meant to be understood as that. It was not a set of military instructions from a commanding officer subject to interpretation by a group of soldiers sitting around discussing the real intent of the orders just issued.

I understand you come from a military background. If that's true, it does at least partially explain your insistence on a literal interpretation of everything.

It's clear to me that the equipment you have available will affect the type of subjects you are able to address and the manner in which they will be addressed. If you haven't got a camera, you can't take a photo. If you haven't got a telephoto lens, you can't shoot craters on the moon. If you haven't got a macro lens, you can't get sharp images of a grasshopper's eyeball and if you haven't got an ISO 1600 setting and a wide aperture lens, you can't get sharp hand-held shots in the moonlight of a castle turret where every stone is clearly delineated. All that's true. What makes you think Ken, or anyone with even a cursory knowledge of photography, does not understand that?

By the way, when are you going to get your MFDB equipment? Have you decided whether the DB will be a leaf or a Phase?  
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mrleonard

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« Reply #84 on: April 06, 2008, 10:41:07 pm »

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Good for you. Just why do you think your clients are so insecure?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=187546\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Western consumer culture gone awry would be my guess. Perhaps they are also under the (false) impression that there's a better chance of taking a better photo with better gear.
Anyway..I never asked them, so you tell me.
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Ray

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« Reply #85 on: April 06, 2008, 11:08:35 pm »

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Ray,

Thanks for the clarification. I hadn't realized that KR's piece was a novel. I can agree that it is pure fiction, just not very good fiction.   
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=187318\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Good enough to generate a fair amount of discussion though, eh!, what?  
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Nick Rains

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« Reply #86 on: April 06, 2008, 11:09:20 pm »

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Anyway..I never asked them, so you tell me.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=187548\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
So maybe they are not insecure and you are imagining it.

How about going to your next job with a phone camera - your clients may or may not be secure, but will they be satisfied?
« Last Edit: April 06, 2008, 11:10:44 pm by Nick Rains »
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Nick Rains
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Ray

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Your camera definately,still,does NOT matter!!!
« Reply #87 on: April 06, 2008, 11:19:52 pm »

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Did Rudd write the speech? Even if he did the tool is irrelevant in this case - however, who wrote it is. Tools do not always matter, I have never said otherwise, but your position appears to be that they never matter, which is an entirely different thing.
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Kevin Rudd has actually said that he wrote that speech himself in longhand, with pen and paper, because that approach facilitated his flow of thoughts on such an important matter dear to his heart.

Most people appeared to have been emotionally moved by the speech. You could consider it to be analogous to a photo with artistic merit or emotional impact, taken with a Holga or Brownie Box camera.

The tool matters in the sense that you have to have a tool of some sorts that has been designed for the task in hand. I don't think Rudd's speech would have been improved if he'd tried to write it by dipping his finger in the ink.  
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mrleonard

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Your camera definately,still,does NOT matter!!!
« Reply #88 on: April 06, 2008, 11:25:02 pm »

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So maybe they are not insecure and you are imagining it.

How about going to your next job with a phone camera - your clients may or may not be secure, but will they be satisfied?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=187554\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


LOL...The camera doesnt matter ...I could take an interesting photo with any camera. They are not paying for that though...an artists taking art photos at their wedding. They want their wedding documented...and as I said....that's when the camera matters: for muder scenes,x-rays, wildlife pics  of australia...etc.etc.
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Jonathan Wienke

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« Reply #89 on: April 07, 2008, 12:09:40 am »

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LOL...The camera doesnt matter ...I could take an interesting photo with any camera. They are not paying for that though...an artists taking art photos at their wedding.

"Interesting" to you may not have any resemblance to what the client finds interesting. Care to share some of your "interesting" cell phone camera shots?

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They want their wedding documented...and as I said....that's when the camera matters: for muder scenes,x-rays, wildlife pics  of australia...etc.etc.

So you agree with me that the camera does matter, some of the time. Unlike you, I use my DSLRs to capture wedding images that have a reasonably high degree of technical merit and are artistically pleasing as well. Unless you think these are mere documentation:





You seem to be under the sadly mistaken impression (as is Ken Rockwell) that technical excellence is an impediment to artistic excellence, and that those who make an effort to master technical excellence know less of artistic merit for doing so. This is a false dichotomy.
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Nick Rains

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« Reply #90 on: April 07, 2008, 12:16:39 am »

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The tool matters in the sense that you have to have a tool of some sorts that has been designed for the task in hand. I don't think Rudd's speech would have been improved if he'd tried to write it by dipping his finger in the ink. 
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No argument there.

Like I said repeatedly, no-one is pushing the concept that tools always matter. What I am saying is that tools can matter, and I'm firmly against this spurious notion that tools never matter.

Your example is flawed though - it's not the ink on the page that's being 'appreciated' is it? It's the meaning of the words. If you want to appreciate the craft of writing, I am sure the monks of medieval times chose with great care their quills for illuminated manuscripts!
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Nick Rains
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« Reply #91 on: April 07, 2008, 12:24:39 am »

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LOL...The camera doesnt matter ...I could take an interesting photo with any camera. They are not paying for that though...an artists taking art photos at their wedding. They want their wedding documented...and as I said....that's when the camera matters: for muder scenes,x-rays, wildlife pics  of australia...etc.etc.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=187558\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Any idiot can take 'interesting' images with any old camera - at least they can call them interesting. Whether anyone else agrees is another matter!

Chimps chuck paint around and some call it 'art'. OK, fine, whatever.

BTW you have crossed a line and dissed other poster's images - so now post your own. As they say "put up or shut up".
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Nick Rains
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mrleonard

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« Reply #92 on: April 07, 2008, 12:28:33 am »

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You seem to be under the sadly mistaken impression (as is Ken Rockwell) that technical excellence is an impediment to artistic excellence, and that those who make an effort to master technical excellence know less of artistic merit for doing so. This is a false dichotomy.
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Ya know what..you just don't get it and you never will..it's as simple as that.I am not under any sad impression of anything.Mastering a tool technically is of interest to people that are interested in technical qualities...sure.I'm not one of those....I am not even sure you know what that means! I mean...a quality of noise  in an image can be a very desireable texture. How would that relate to this idea of technical excellence?
I do think those photos are  dull, yes,if that's what you were asking. You're hung up on silly words...does the camera "matter"..et al. You don't seem to grok what it means...what I've been talking about in these posts. Well, let me rephrase that..I am sure you understand what I am saying, I just don't think you subscribe to that position...as is your right.
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mrleonard

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« Reply #93 on: April 07, 2008, 12:32:14 am »

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BTW you have crossed a line and dissed other poster's images - so now post your own. As they say "put up or shut up".
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=187567\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Crossed a line..lol. I stated my point of view. Go ahead and 'diss' my images all you want. I dont care. Maybe you should be reading the posts,as anyone can see I DID post approx 5 of my images a few posts ago.
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mrleonard

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« Reply #94 on: April 07, 2008, 12:35:55 am »

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Any idiot can take 'interesting' images with any old camera - at least they can call them interesting. Whether anyone else agrees is another matter!


[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=187567\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

So  what you're saying is that artistic merit is measured by consensus? Whew! Now I  can sleep well knowing Jon Bon Jovi is a greater artist than David Bowie, and that Joni Mitchell can never hope to be as great an artist as Zamfir or Poison.
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Nick Rains

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« Reply #95 on: April 07, 2008, 12:41:27 am »

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Crossed a line..lol. I stated my point of view. Go ahead and 'diss' my images all you want. I dont care. Maybe you should be reading the posts,as anyone can see I DID post approx 5 of my images a few posts ago.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=187571\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
OK, I missed them.
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Nick Rains
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Nick Rains

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« Reply #96 on: April 07, 2008, 12:43:29 am »

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So  what you're saying is that artistic merit is measured by consensus? Whew! Now I  can sleep well knowing Jon Bon Jovi is a greater artist than David Bowie, and that Joni Mitchell can never hope to be as great an artist as Zamfir or Poison.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=187572\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Artistic merit depends on more than someone saying 'this is art'. How do you measure it?
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Nick Rains
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mrleonard

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« Reply #97 on: April 07, 2008, 12:56:12 am »

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Artistic merit depends on more than someone saying 'this is art'. How do you measure it?
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I don't measure it...I don't need to. Do you?Art is art. Do you measure the smell of coffee to discern what it is? Or do you just drink it knowing that since it smells of coffee ,it therefore is.
There is no measurement...or if there is ,say a scientific one...it doesn't interest me. The same way that I don't measure the quality of a day in it's technical characteristics.
"Say honey, how was your day? " " Oh well, you know, it started with 19 degrees celsius , 670 lumens of light with low barometric pressure..."
Maybe the universe is not composed of matter at all...it's composed of stories.
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Nick Rains

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« Reply #98 on: April 07, 2008, 01:20:49 am »

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I don't measure it...I don't need to. Do you?Art is art. Do you measure the smell of coffee to discern what it is? Or do you just drink it knowing that since it smells of coffee ,it therefore is.
There is no measurement...or if there is ,say a scientific one...it doesn't interest me. The same way that I don't measure the quality of a day in it's technical characteristics.
"Say honey, how was your day? " " Oh well, you know, it started with 19 degrees celsius , 670 lumens of light with low barometric pressure..."
Maybe the universe is not composed of matter at all...it's composed of stories.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=187577\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Sigh... I was merely using your term...

"So what you're saying is that artistic merit is measured by consensus?"
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Nick Rains
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Ray

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« Reply #99 on: April 07, 2008, 04:17:49 am »

We should also not lose sight of the fact that any work of art is, almost by definition, like a piece of rhetoric, just like Ken's article. It's meant to be persuasive, and inevitably contains exaggerations for dramatic effect.

Jonathan's castle turret is a good example. The precarious position of the solitary figure, seemingly tottering on the brink of eternal darkness, is a dramatic effect which Jonathan has deliberately created, although it's not clear if he manipulated the image in Photoshop to that effect in order just to remove obtrusive noise.

Maybe if he'd been using a D3 at ISO 6400 which just might have produced marginally less noise in those dark shadows, he would have left some detail in the lower part of the image which might have reduced that dramatic effect of the precarious position of that lone figure lower right.

The debate as to whether photography is an art or a craft is relevant here. If one is merely trying to portray the scene in front of the camera with the greatest accuracy possible with regard to color, hue, detail, sharpness and shade, just as the eye, flitting from one part of the scene to the other, sees it, then I think perhaps we are dealing with a craft rather than an art.
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