Anyone shooting MFDB digital plus film?

[wolfnowl]

And I love the mood of film. There is something else. I don't know what exactly. A feeling.

I agree.  Not being a professional photographer I can still enjoy it as a hobby, and while I love the creative abilities of Lightroom for example, I still have a connection to film.  I recently found four rolls of Provia 120 in the freezer and sent them off for processing, and that meant I had to find the box that had my loupe, and set up the light table and everything, but there was something more tangible about it - a different feeling than holding a CF card.  That's not to knock digital - I also shoot digitally and I imagine people who were just getting into photography in the digital age won't have that same feeling or connection to film but it's still there for me.

Mike.

[EricWHiss]

Great to hear from all of everyone on this.  

One thing that hasn't been discussed too much is what do you do after you shoot....meaning if there is an advantage with film or a certain look, is it retained when scanned and printed digitally or is only preserved when printed in the darkroom?  I'm pretty sure a C print can still do more colors than the latest epson or HP inkjet.   In fact I am always totally blown away by the look of big film prints in the galleries.  MFDB may have more resolution, but I think film still rules for color, especially when it comes to prints.  

What do you all say?

[Frank Doorhof]

I don't think films win in resolution.
When I compare the film shots with the 22MP digital back the digital back wins with EASE, there is much more detail in the 22MP files (sharper).
I have blown pictures from the 5D up to billboard size without problems so I don't think that (without the need for crop) you will need more resolution.

As mentioned before the main difference for me is the look and feel of the shot.

[Anders_HK]

There's a "like new" Mamiya 7 II on e-bay right now with bidding at a bit over $900 for the body with an 80mm lens.  For the price of a top-end Nikon digital body you could get a couple of 7's and a range of lenses...I once hungered for one of these, and now, I just can't see myself doing film again -- and that's after doing it for forty years.

JC
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John,

I got my Mamiya 7II with 80mm and 43mm lens in Hong Kong earlier this year. All of it new. Going from memory I paid around 1500 USD for the 7II with 80mm and around 1000 USD for 43mm. That was at Man Shing store in Mong Kok, but... I now know I can buy Mamiya from the agent directly... possibly a little less. Pricing of the 7 is way high on Ebay due thanks to the USA agent selling it at rip off prices. It can be worth a travel for some people considering it... .

Regards
Anders

[alba63]

Rob, did you have the latest versions? The 55mm with the almost flat front element? This lens is absolutely fantastic.
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Hello Bernd, I just had to let go a used Mamiya ZD, I was about to buy it, but in the last second held back because as a non pro I could not justify the cost, at least not right now. I'm trying to get over it in going to learn more about that old Pentax 67 which has been lying unused in the corner for years. I certainly have not learned to use it to its best. I only have a 45mm right now, but will try to find that 55mm - is there a way to recognize the lates versions other than the flat front glass? Are all the lenses that read "SMC" new versions?

I don't have access to drum scanning and getting it drum- scanned is too expensive, but I have a dedicated MF film scanner (Minolta Multi Pro) which gives, when used correctly, very good results.

Thanks, bernie

[Conner999]

I experimented with some 35mm slides scanned at 3800 dpi (shooting at just under the scanners's rated 4000dpi produced best results - no idea why) with a Nikon 5000ED 16x sampling, usig Silverfast, etc., etc - in short, the best the scanner could produce.

I was sadly disappointed in the loss in acuity and detail vs. similar 5D or even 30D files. This with scnas that knocked the socks off the local lab's Frontier scans of the same slide.

I can't imagine it being any different comparing MF film scanned vs MFDB. Some acuity and resolution in the film is lost during the scanning process, being a second-order file (lens-to-film, film-to-CCD) vs a straight from digi 1st order file.

A wet mount scan would produce a better scan, but second order derivatives will always cost some detail/acuity - and cost you in the file size generated re: storage & required memory and processing power for PP'ing.

[Anders_HK]

I experimented with some 35mm slides scanned at 3800 dpi (shooting at just under the scanners's rated 4000dpi produced best results - no idea why) with a Nikon 5000ED 16x sampling, usig Silverfast, etc., etc - in short, the best the scanner could produce.

I was sadly disappointed in the loss in acuity and detail vs. similar 5D or even 30D files. This with scnas that knocked the socks off the local lab's Frontier scans of the same slide.

I can't imagine it being any different comparing MF film scanned vs MFDB. Some acuity and resolution in the film is lost during the scanning process, being a second-order file (lens-to-film, film-to-CCD) vs a straight from digi 1st order file.

A wet mount scan would produce a better scan, but second order derivatives will always cost some detail/acuity - and cost you in the file size generated re: storage & required memory and processing power for PP'ing.
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I shot 35mm Fuji slides before but nearest processing lab one hour away put scratches on them two years ago. That got me into Nikon digital (50, 3 months & 200, 15 months). Well, scanning best shots from 80 rolls of film traveling rond the world in 2003 took loooooong time, another reason. Yes, DSLR beats 35mm slides in detail. Colors. No. Colors even of 35 Fuji Velvia 50 that I got back from shooting in Sichuan in China one year ago were amazing.

35mm is too small for me now. I wanted more. And, MF makes me more selective. Less photos to have scanned.

Now I shoot 6x7 Velvia 50 slides in my Mamiya 7II and ZD for MF digital. Velvia 50 in 6x7 really got me amazed and thinking. Very impressive looking at those slides. In many ways it sure beats my ZD. Assuming I do not scan all slides, as an amateur, it sure would save me lots of computer time processing. Colors are very good on ZD, but the slides are supreme in colors. I had one 6x7 scanned on a high class Epson dedicated flat bed and printed about 50cm wide. Looks awesome. Yes, it looks a little different than the slide in colors and all else, but... it sure by far beats 35mm. MF slides is different than digital, but the ZD still looks film like. Photos from other DMFBs can look more plastic. Digital does have advantages and some I much like... but it still feels as a technology still under rapid development, and not to mention that as an amateur it sure is very costly. I like capturing images for a future house... I sure am thinking if it is necessary with digital for that.

Archival is another side. I read somewhere that Fuji Astia has a color that is supposed to last three hundred years. Now that would leave something for future generations! Can you imagine that with digital? Not to mention being able sit less infront of computer...

Regards  
Anders

[Dinarius]

  I haven't shot film in a long time but guess that a good scan is still going to be better than my P20 files in terms of resolution and perhaps tonality?   
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I have not yet bought an MFDB - I shoot 4x5 tranny and a Canon 5D - but I can say with certainty that my little 5D properly handled (by that I mean properly exposed and handled RAW files captured on a tripod, and using the Mirror Up/Custom Function 12. i.e. I don't touch the camera during exposure) blows my Mamiya RB67 film clean out of the water. No question about it.

D.

[nicolaasdb]

the difference between the film feel and the digital feel....is that you got to do a lot of post-production to get the film feel in your digital images...but it can be done and when you master that part you got the best of both worlds..

a. no more waiting for someone else to develop your film
b. feel film and total control over output...no 3rd party involvement with their professional 2cents

[Conner999]

I just wish affordable scanners delivered a better product.

I love the look of Velvia 50 and 100 slides (storing them however is a PITA). The simplicity of the cameras is also nice - small batteries that last forever, slow depreciation, no chargers/laptops/harddrives to lug around, etc, can focus more time and $$$ on the shots and glass.

[Frank Doorhof]

Will add a little.

Today I got my first Reala film back I shot in the studio in a VERY high contrast setting, and that is were digital really outshines film I now strongly believe.
The whole role can be dumped due to almost clipping highlights and muddy shadows, the digital had perfect highlights and great shadow detail.

I also shot a Tmax400 film outside and those shots are stunning again (like the illford delta 400).

For me it's still a mood thing, I will also try a 100ISO film in a more beauty setup soon but for now it was a bit of a letdown to be honest.

[Anders_HK]

Will add a little.

Today I got my first Reala film back I shot in the studio in a VERY high contrast setting, and that is were digital really outshines film I now strongly believe.
The whole role can be dumped due to almost clipping highlights and muddy shadows, the digital had perfect highlights and great shadow detail.

I also shot a Tmax400 film outside and those shots are stunning again (like the illford delta 400).

For me it's still a mood thing, I will also try a 100ISO film in a more beauty setup soon but for now it was a bit of a letdown to be honest.
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Frank,

Maybe silly questions; did you control the available stops in scene to match the film and likewise set expsoure proper on scanner?

Perhaps check Fuji Astia for film detail in high contrast situations. I have read it is good and finally found some I will try. Slides gives you an orginal to match with scanner... Changing 'sensor' in back with film is cheap  

Personally I just bought a Pentax digital spotmeter (found it new  ), back to the zone system with my 7ii .

Regards
Anders

[Frank Doorhof]

I know what I did wrong I think

I shot this with the leaf:


Film is a learning process for me at this moment, I hardly shot anyfilm in the studio I started digital right away.
And outside I mainly use AV for the normal work.

[Anders_HK]

I know what I did wrong I think

I shot this with the leaf:


Film is a learning process for me at this moment, I hardly shot anyfilm in the studio I started digital right away.
And outside I mainly use AV for the normal work.
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Frank,

I am getting deeper into metering for film. Before two years ago I shot only film, trusting F100 matrix metering, mostly landscape and people on travels. For more exact control spot metering with Zone system can be essential. For that posted photo you would be able to control exact with that. For slides textureless black is -2.5 stops and textureless white +2.5 stops. For negative film you have more exposure latitude when making prints. Completely different than histograms. One of my first rolls from my Mamiya 7 last year was of a model infront of store windows at night. No spotmeter, only the 7's meter that requires some learning and which was rather useless in that situation... so all trash...  

Regards
Anders

[Frank Doorhof]

 I feel like a inverted dinosaur.
I can measure for digital to the last minute detail but for film somehow I have to learn to think alot more backwards.

I use a 758DR at the moment because I use 3 bodies, the Leaf, the 5D and a film back.
When I'm shooting my next roll of film in the studio I will include a grayramp in the shot to make absolutly sure what the film is doing and store that in the 758.

On the other hand I'm not using film in the studio, it's just for location work where digital is not usable, like B&W 3200 or color on 800.

I did bought some ISO100 rolls just to test how that works, I want to be as complete as I can be in my workshops and once everytime there also is a film shooter in the audience and I also want to answer him correctly.

It is fun however

[Anders_HK]

I feel like a inverted dinosaur.
I can measure for digital to the last minute detail but for film somehow I have to learn to think alot more backwards.

I use a 758DR at the moment because I use 3 bodies, the Leaf, the 5D and a film back.
When I'm shooting my next roll of film in the studio I will include a grayramp in the shot to make absolutly sure what the film is doing and store that in the 758.

On the other hand I'm not using film in the studio, it's just for location work where digital is not usable, like B&W 3200 or color on 800.

I did bought some ISO100 rolls just to test how that works, I want to be as complete as I can be in my workshops and once everytime there also is a film shooter in the audience and I also want to answer him correctly.

It is fun however
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Film is fun

Zone system - [a href=\"http://www.normankoren.com/zonesystem.html]http://www.normankoren.com/zonesystem.html[/url].

Color? Fuji Provia X pushed 1 stop. In negative film my favourite was Fuji Press 800, but I am not sure if they still make it   . Somehow it was different than Superia 800, although supposedly same emulsion. Provia is finer grain.

Awaiting your film posts    .

Rgds
Anders

[Frank Doorhof]

there are already some online on www.htforum.nl/fotofrank in the USA2007 folder and on www.doorhof.nl/models under Vlada and Monique (B&W shots).

[jing q]

I know what I did wrong I think

I shot this with the leaf:


Film is a learning process for me at this moment, I hardly shot anyfilm in the studio I started digital right away.
And outside I mainly use AV for the normal work.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=153647\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

you have to understand how the film works in terms of contrast before shooting. Most film acts like a file that already has a curve thrown on it.

In the ol' days of C-printing we had high contrast film and high contrast paper for maximum high contrast, you don't just shoot 5 stops over for a highlight + 5 stops under for a shadow to get the effect you want (ok I exaggerate), because you'll end up with a muddy mess

In other words I find it misleading to compare your leaf files with film files without an understanding of how film handles.

Also I'm not sure how dynamic range is explained but there's more to the comparison than how many stops of darks and highlights a film can handle. You'll also have to take a look at the tonalities within those stops. A midtone in most films of medium format size easily blow away the tonalities in a 5D

[Frank Doorhof]

That's why I call it a learning curve.

But the fact stays that the leaf handles the contrast in THIS scene with ease.
I will adapt for my next roll of film, don't worry

Tonallity is beter without a doubt than my 5D.
But the leaf is master in my opinion for the dynamic and detail.

Film has a certain feel I love but I don't see me use it for critical commercial work, I love the direct feedback with digital.

[EricWHiss]

Frank,
Thats a nice image of a nice looking model.  

Film has a certain feel I love but I don't see me use it for critical commercial work, I love the direct feedback with digital.
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This is sort of why I posted the question in the first place. Since its so easy to pop of the digital back and pop on a film back, I wanted to know if anyone was say dialing in lighting using the digital back as a polaroid if you will, one that you can shoot tethered and zoom in etc, then when its all set up, pop on the film for the shot and the effect you want.   I'm probably going to start doing this for certain art projects, but man I have not shot film since 2000, and not developed or printed anything since 1990 - the year I got out of Berkeley. Just wanted to know if anyone was doing it and could say Yes its worth the trouble.