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John Sheehy

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« Reply #60 on: January 01, 2007, 07:07:09 pm »

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If you resample everything to the same pixel dimensions, or print unequal MP images to the same print size, the effect of MP on motion blur is irrelevant, as long as the motion blur has a greater negative effect on resolution than pixel count, i.e. motion blur is at least 1 pixel. Your sample images prove my point.

I can't grasp what you are trying to say here.

My sample images prove that lower-MP counts in the same format size *exaggerate* motion blur, making it worse than it is in the analog world, which the higher-MP sensor approaches.

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More megapixels don't make motion blur "thinner" or less noticeable; at best, they make no difference.
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How can you say that?  I have shown that more MPs makes a beneficial difference.

I could do it again with binning of real camera motion blur, if you like, if you don't think that bicubic should be used for the simulation.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2007, 07:10:17 pm by John Sheehy »
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Ray

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« Reply #61 on: January 01, 2007, 07:29:34 pm »

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Yes, but a 36x36 mm sensor requires an image circle slightly larger than that of a 24x36 mm, since the diagonal is longer.

Regards,
Bernard
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Bernard,
You're absolutely right. When recently in Bangkok, on my way to Cambodia, I thought I would get a Sigma 12-24mm lens for the sake of that marginally extra width (compared with my Sigma 15-30mm). At those focal lengths, 3mm makes a substantial difference which is often needed when shooting massive structures in confined spaces, such as the temple ruins around Angkor Wat.

I tested a couple of copies of the lens in the store; was pleased with the noticeably wider angle of view, compared with my 15-30mm, but disappointed with the much worse performance at the edges and corners than my 15-30mm exhibited. I didn't buy the lens for this reason, although performance around the centre was pretty close to that of the 15-30mm.

With a 36mm square sensor, there would be many more lenses which would start revealing the poor performance similar to the Sigma 12-24 (at 12mm) in the corners.

To keep the status quo in the corners with existing lenses, a square sensor in a 35mm body would need a diagonal of around 30.6mm (still requiring a design change to accommodate a larger mirror) and the maximum size image when cropped to 3:2 proportions would be 30.6x20.4mm.

I think I'm right in saying my 15mm lens would effectively become a 17.6mm lens.

...would need a diagonal of around 30.6mm . I think I also need another cup of coffee. I mean of course, the sides of the square would be 30.6mm, which still presents a problem for mirror clearance.

As I said before, the arguments in favour of the 35mm 3:2 aspect ratio are at least as compelling as the arguments in favour of a closer-to-square format.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2007, 07:43:35 pm by Ray »
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John Sheehy

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« Reply #62 on: January 01, 2007, 08:36:14 pm »

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If you're keeping composition constant (which you're assuming, given your statement about the blur trail being longer), then the width of the blur trail is going to increase by the the exact same degree as the length, which is in direct proportion to the increase in sensor pixels.
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Not at all.  That is a false assumption.  Each point of light has no height or width on the analog focal plane other than what is caused by diffraction, but the airy disk's analog size is not affected by the resolution of the sensor.  No matter what the resolution of the sensor is, the trail of a blurred point of light is as long as the motion, and as wide as the airy disk (at sufficiently fast speeds, no disk actually forms, and the line is simply randomly modulated from side to side; it wiggles).  The analog airy disk touches photosites as it passes over them, and the bigger these pixels are, the wider the exposed pixel trail be, relative to frame size.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2007, 08:36:41 pm by John Sheehy »
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Ray

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« Reply #63 on: January 02, 2007, 12:47:04 am »

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The paper also confirms that the rule of thumb of the reciprocal of focal length in millimeters as a guide for the exposure required for a sharp picture is a very rough approximation at best. There have been very few studies of hand held camera shake.

If anyone has additional data, please post.
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Bill,
I think most of us who have taken a few thousand shots over the years, get a 'feel' for the shutter speed necessary for a hand-held tack sharp image. I agree that 1/35mmFL does not pass muster. But there's no reason to suppose that a 24mp 35mm sensor will have higher noise, on a pixel for pixel basis, than the current 20D or 30D. ISO 800 should therfore be very usable with insignificant loss of resolution due to image degradation or in-camera noise reduction, and on the same size enlargements, noise should be actually less than that from the 30D.

On the basis of the sunny f16 rule, in good lighting 1/100th sec exposure at ISO 100 (and f16) is often sufficient for full exposure to the right. That's a 400th at f8. Factor in the benefits of IS and clean images at high ISO, there should be little problem in finding a sufficiently fast shutter speed for tack sharp hand-held images from a 24mp sensor. Look on the positive side, old chap   .
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Jonathan Wienke

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« Reply #64 on: January 02, 2007, 01:02:43 am »

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Not at all.  That is a false assumption.  Each point of light has no height or width on the analog focal plane other than what is caused by diffraction, but the airy disk's analog size is not affected by the resolution of the sensor.  No matter what the resolution of the sensor is, the trail of a blurred point of light is as long as the motion, and as wide as the airy disk (at sufficiently fast speeds, no disk actually forms, and the line is simply randomly modulated from side to side; it wiggles).  The analog airy disk touches photosites as it passes over them, and the bigger these pixels are, the wider the exposed pixel trail be, relative to frame size.

And the bigger the photosites are, the fewer of them will be impacted by the Airy disk. If diffraction is significant enough that it is covering multiple pixels, putting a higher-resolution sensor under the lens means the Airy disk will cover more pixels than before. And if the Airy disk is smaller than a single pixel, then diffraction isn't really a relevant consideration, as the main factor limiting resolution is the pixel count of the sensor, not the lens. What exactly is your point?
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Jonathan Wienke

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« Reply #65 on: January 02, 2007, 01:14:00 am »

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The diagonal of a 36x36mm sensor is almost 51mm. The consequences of putting such a sensor in a 35mm body would be more vignetting and degradation of the image in the corners with existing 35mm lenses, not to mention the problems of mirror clearance.

And as I stated previously, cropping an image from a 36x36mm sensor to 2:3 aspect ratio is no different than an uncropped image from a 24x36mm sensor. I'm well aware that a 36x36mm sensor would go outside the designed image circle of 35mm-format lenses, but at least one would have the choice of how much of the image circle to use.

My original point was simply that going to a square sensor would not necessarily mean a reduction in FOV for a given focal length compared to a 2:3 sensor. Thank you for proving my point for me. I'm well aware of the Pythagorean Theorem, note that I did mention the square sensor dimensions (30.59mm) that would use the same image circle as a 24x36mm sensor.
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Jonathan Wienke

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« Reply #66 on: January 02, 2007, 02:19:12 am »

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My sample images prove that lower-MP counts in the same format size *exaggerate* motion blur, making it worse than it is in the analog world, which the higher-MP sensor approaches.

They do no such thing. You are looking at image blur that is the result of two factors, and incorrectly calling the combined result "motion blur". You have two resolution-reducing factors at work in your test shots: pixel-size blur, and motion blur. When you combine them together, you get an effect similar to combining lens and film MTF to get a system MTF. If you change film, system MTF will be changed, but lens MTF is not changed. In exactly the same way, changing sensor pixel size affects pixel-size blur, but that has no effect on the motion blur itself, only the combined mix of motion blur and pixel-size blur. By increasing sensor resolution, you reduce the blur caused by pixel size, which significantly reduces overall image blur when motion blur is less than or approximately equal to pixel-size blur. But when motion blur becomes significantly greater than pixel-size blur, changing pixel-size blur has a negligible effect on system blur. Your example images are roughly comparable to plotting system MTF where the lens MTF is 50% and the film MTF is varied from 25% to 75%. Varying film MTF is having a significant effect on system MTF, but your lens MTF (the motion blur is not changing at all. And if you changed lens MTF to 5% (the equivalent of increasing motion blur), chaning film MTF has a negligible effect on system MTF.

If you extend your comparisons, your assertion falls apart completely. At .125X, the pixel-size blur would be so great that the motion blur would be completely insignificant. And the difference between 4x and 8x and beyond would be negligible, because the motion blur is now the primary resolution limiter, and throwing more pixels into the mix won't change that at all. So to take advantage of the extra pixels, one must reduce motion blur to the same degree that pixel size is decreased.

In order for a digital image to appear sharp, pixel-size blur must be the primary limitation on resolution. When pixel count is increased, the per-image levels of motion blur, lens aberrations, etc. must be correspondingly reduced, or else one reaches a point of diminishing returns where adding more pixels becomes a complete waste. If you don't believe me, try extending your comparison by adding 4x, 8x, 16x, and 32x images to your lineup, and you'll discover exactly what I mean.
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Ray

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« Reply #67 on: January 02, 2007, 02:22:04 am »

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And as I stated previously, cropping an image from a 36x36mm sensor to 2:3 aspect ratio is no different than an uncropped image from a 24x36mm sensor. I'm well aware that a 36x36mm sensor would go outside the designed image circle of 35mm-format lenses, but at least one would have the choice of how much of the image circle to use.
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Okay! I understand your point, Jonathan. But let's be realistic. Companies selling products can not afford to go to the markt on the basis that, 'We know in certain circumstances our images have lousy performance in the corners, but at least we're giving you more choice.

Perhaps the same principle applies to autofocussing at f8. Why does the the 20D and 5D not have this facility? Some folks, apparently, achieve it by taping over the pins. Can we expect Canon to provide an inferior autofocussing system at f8, and then explain in the manual that autofocussing at f8 is only accurate in exceptionally good light.

Can we expect Canon to design a 36x36mm sensor and then apologise for the fact that many of their lenses will exhibit unacceptable performance in the corners? I think not.
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Jonathan Wienke

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« Reply #68 on: January 02, 2007, 02:32:22 am »

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Can we expect Canon to design a 36x36mm sensor and then apologise for the fact that many of their lenses will exhibit unacceptable performance in the corners? I think not.

I'm not going to hold my breath. But that doesn't mean I wouldn't like to acquire such a camera if they did. I'd probably buy a G7 if they added RAW support, too. But they probably won't. Such is life. And why I bought an Olympus instead.
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Ray

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« Reply #69 on: January 02, 2007, 03:08:18 am »

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I'm not going to hold my breath. But that doesn't mean I wouldn't like to acquire such a camera if they did. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=93239\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

If they did, it would be a radical design change, not only of sensor, but of camera body proportions to accommodate the larger mirror. Their existing wide-ange lenses, which are not Canon's strong point, would be shown in an even worse light. Their TS-E 24mm would be ridiculously poor at the extremities of shift; customers would be screaming for better quality lenses and the executive director who made the decision to go for a 36x36mm sensor would be fired.

Need I say more   .
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eronald

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« Reply #70 on: January 02, 2007, 07:11:50 am »

Ray,

 I am not quite ready to agree here. Let us look at this more closely -
 
Take a fixed point of light at image distance. Open and close the shutter. The shake is materialised by the track exposed on the sensor due to camera movement in the time the shutter was open.

My assertions:

1. What matters for the photographer is the measured metric length of the printed track on the enlargement (centimetres), or the ratio of that measured length to the size of the print, but not the number of pixels in there. So, let us choose some fixed printed size, eg. 8x10. Then we see that what matters to determine shake is the enlargement factor of this track to print size, not the absolute resolution.

2. Going to a crop-frame camera (with a reduction in lens focal length) wll up the enlargement factor and increase the effects of shake (on fixed-sized prints). Large-format cameras should display less shake effects when fixed-size results are compared eg. 8x10.

Now it's time for my morning coffee.

Edmund
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Bill,
Of course
If you accept that it would be adequate, then do you agree that using a higher resolving sensor will require an increase in shutter speed in proportion to the increase in resolution which, in the case of a doubling of pixel count on the same size sensor, amounts to a 1.4x increase?
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« Last Edit: January 02, 2007, 07:15:25 am by eronald »
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bjanes

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« Reply #71 on: January 02, 2007, 07:58:48 am »

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Bill,
I think most of us who have taken a few thousand shots over the years, get a 'feel' for the shutter speed necessary for a hand-held tack sharp image. I agree that 1/35mmFL does not pass muster. But there's no reason to suppose that a 24mp 35mm sensor will have higher noise, on a pixel for pixel basis, than the current 20D or 30D. ISO 800 should therfore be very usable with insignificant loss of resolution due to image degradation or in-camera noise reduction, and on the same size enlargements, noise should be actually less than that from the 30D.

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What is tack sharp to you may not be so to others. Most serious landscape photographers use a tripod in nearly all cases and do not rely on hand holding. Why do you think this is? Each doubling of ISO haves the dynamic range and there is no such thing as a free lunch.
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John Sheehy

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« Reply #72 on: January 02, 2007, 08:42:50 am »

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What is tack sharp to you may not be so to others. Most serious landscape photographers use a tripod in nearly all cases and do not rely on hand holding. Why do you think this is? Each doubling of ISO haves the dynamic range and there is no such thing as a free lunch.
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Well, that depends on the camera (and your definition of DR).  In an ideal camera, where shot noise is the only noise (and there is no quantization), ISO/exposure follows the simple rule (one less stop of DR for each doubling of exposure index).  In real cameras, it can go that way, or it can be like the recent Canons, where ISO 1600 has as little as 1.5 stops less DR than ISO 100; at least that is the difference between 1:1 S:N ratios at ISOs 100 and 1600.

I would venture to say that many people who have cameras that have less absolute noise at the higher ISO don't understand the implications, and under-expose at the lowest ISO rather than ETTR at a higher ISO, which would give less noise.  If lighting permits, of course, ETTR is better yet at the lower ISOs, but some cameras have compromised highlights at their lowest ISO due to the manufacturer trying to force ISO 100 or 50 when the camera is really only capable of 120 or 70.
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John Sheehy

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« Reply #73 on: January 02, 2007, 09:02:49 am »

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And the bigger the photosites are, the fewer of them will be impacted by the Airy disk.

But those fewer pixels occupy a greater total percentage of sensor area.

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If diffraction is significant enough that it is covering multiple pixels,

My argument does not depend on the airy disk.  The airy disk is my concession about a point of light possibly having width on the focal plane.  You originally said that the width of the path of a point of light increases in proprtion to the length, in pixels, in a higher-MP sensor of the same size.

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putting a higher-resolution sensor under the lens means the Airy disk will cover more pixels than before.

Again, at a smaller percentage of total sensor (image) area!

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And if the Airy disk is smaller than a single pixel, then diffraction isn't really a relevant consideration, as the main factor limiting resolution is the pixel count of the sensor, not the lens. What exactly is your point?
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My point is that given the same camera shake, with the same sensor frame size and same lens, the higher-MP camera will have its image less damaged by the motion.  They don't call increased MP "more resolution" for nothing.  More MPs means more ability to resolve (avoid confusion).

Again, diffraction is a concession about width of a streak of light from a point source; not a contingency for my argument.  A true width-less line will touch more pixels, true, but they are smaller pixels, and represent less of the total area of the frame.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2007, 12:18:15 am by John Sheehy »
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eronald

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« Reply #74 on: January 02, 2007, 09:03:28 am »

Look, I know little (comparatively) about the scientific aspects of digital imaging, but I do take pictures in bursts of a few hundred, handheld, in bad light, when I'm at the Paris fashion shows.
But the only camera which I've ever had real shake problems with is the Leica M8 in daylight - go figure ? where I'm routinely doubling or more the speed I'd use on a fullframe SLR.

Edmund
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John Sheehy

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« Reply #75 on: January 02, 2007, 09:26:01 am »

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They do no such thing. You are looking at image blur that is the result of two factors, and incorrectly calling the combined result "motion blur".

Yes, the analog blur before being binned by photosites is always there, but the spatial sampling is what makes or breaks it.  You will never get a break on the effects of motion blur by having less and larger pixels; they will always make things somewhere from slightly to horrendously worse.  The notion that more and smaller pixels requires more steady technique is nonsense; it is only true if you're going to make a MP-equivalent crop of the low-MP version in the high-MP camera, and expect them to compete at the same viewing size.

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You have two resolution-reducing factors at work in your test shots: pixel-size blur, and motion blur. When you combine them together, you get an effect similar to combining lens and film MTF to get a system MTF. If you change film, system MTF will be changed, but lens MTF is not changed. In exactly the same way, changing sensor pixel size affects pixel-size blur, but that has no effect on the motion blur itself, only the combined mix of motion blur and pixel-size blur.

We never see the motion blur by itself.  We always see it through the eyes of pixels.

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If you extend your comparisons, your assertion falls apart completely. At .125X, the pixel-size blur would be so great that the motion blur would be completely insignificant.

Nothing falls apart.  My point is that higher resolution can salvage motion blur in some cases, and it *NEVER* hurts, at the image level.

In my examples, all the arcs were clearly resolved at all intermediate resolutions.  Perhaps, in retrospect, I should have displayed them.

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And the difference between 4x and 8x and beyond would be negligible, because the motion blur is now the primary resolution limiter, and throwing more pixels into the mix won't change that at all. So to take advantage of the extra pixels, one must reduce motion blur to the same degree that pixel size is decreased.

In order for a digital image to appear sharp, pixel-size blur must be the primary limitation on resolution. When pixel count is increased, the per-image levels of motion blur, lens aberrations, etc. must be correspondingly reduced, or else one reaches a point of diminishing returns where adding more pixels becomes a complete waste. If you don't believe me, try extending your comparison by adding 4x, 8x, 16x, and 32x images to your lineup, and you'll discover exactly what I mean.
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You have asked me what my point is, and I have answered.  I still don't know what your point is.  Your point seems to be that in some cases, the higher-MP doesn't help.  So what?  There are always common denominators.  We could have the lens set to f/81, and all the extra resolution will be mostly wasted.  What relevance does that have to using a sharp lens at f/8?
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Jonathan Wienke

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« Reply #76 on: January 02, 2007, 12:27:40 pm »

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My point is that higher resolution can salvage motion blur in some cases, and it *NEVER* hurts, at the image level.

I agree with the second point, but your first is completely incorrect. Sensor resolution NEVER alters the degree of blur imparted to the image by camera shake, lens aberration, etc. When you have 2 approximately equal blur-inducing factors at work in the same image, reducing the degree of one factor can increase overall image resolution, but that does NOT mean that you're actually reducing both blur factors.

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In my examples, all the arcs were clearly resolved at all intermediate resolutions.  Perhaps, in retrospect, I should have displayed them.
You have asked me what my point is, and I have answered.  I still don't know what your point is.  Your point seems to be that in some cases, the higher-MP doesn't help.

My point is that you are making several fraudulent claims:

1: Higher-resolution cameras are less susceptible to motion blur than lower-resolution cameras, all else equal.

2: Motion blur has less of an effect on an image as sensor resolution increases.

Both of these are demonstrably false. Let's conduct a little thought experiment, and perhaps you'll finally understant your error. Imagine a tripod-mounted camera set up next to the finish line of a race track with a 100-degree FOV. It is aimed perpendicular to the track at the finish line, and is triggered by a motion sensor so that the as a car crosses the finish line (which is centered in the FOV), the shutter fires. The shutter speed is chosen such that the car travels through 1 degree of the camera's FOV during exposure.

We start out with a 1000-pixel-wide sensor. The motion blur of the car is 10 pixels long, and if one makes an 8x10 print, the blur is 0.1 inches long on the paper.
[attachment=1452:attachment]

Now we substitute a 2000-pixel-wide sensor. The motion blur is now 20 pixels long. When we make our 8x10 print, the blur is still 0.1 inches long. While the stationary background of the image is noticeably clearer due to the increased sensor resolution, the car itself is not resolved with significantly more detail than in the print made from the 1000-pixel sensor. Why? Because the motion blur is the primary resolution-limiting factor, not the pixel count of the sensor.
[attachment=1453:attachment]

If you compare my two sample images, you'll note that the car is virtually identical between them. The length of the motion blur is identical, the difficulty of reading the lettering on the car is identical; overall the differences are very subtle. The only real improvement to be found is in the horizontal lines of the car (top/bottom of the window, grille, etc.), which are not affected by the motion blur. Other than that, the additional sensor resolution has not helped resolve the car any better, because the motion blur is a much more significant factor than the pixel-size blur in both images.

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The notion that more and smaller pixels requires more steady technique is nonsense; it is only true if you're going to make a MP-equivalent crop of the low-MP version in the high-MP camera, and expect them to compete at the same viewing size.

It's far from nonsense, it's inescapable physics. The whole point of increasing sensor resolution is to capture more overall image detail. When camera shake, motion blur, focus errors, or lens aberrations degrade resolution to a greater degree than pixel-size blur, the advantage of adding additional sensor pixels is compromised or for all practical intents eliminated. The smaller your sensor pixels are, the easier it is for other blurring factors to overwhelm pixel-size blur and degrade image quality to something far less than it could otherwise be.

That is why people who compared the 1Ds and 1Ds-MkII generally found less of an image quality advantage by upgrading to the 1Ds-MkII than might be expected solely from the difference in pixel count and the generational improvement of the 1Ds-II's sensor. The 11MP 1Ds is already quite demanding on most available lenses, and a lens that struggles to satisfy the 1Ds has an even more difficult time meeting the demands of the 1Ds-MkII. When aberrations, whatever their cause, are > 1 pixel in size, there is very little benefit to throwing more pixels at the problem. The more significant the aberrations are, the less significant the benefit derived from the extra pixels will be. And the smaller the pixels are, the easier it is for the aberrations to negate the benefits of additional pixels.

If your assertions were correct, then handheld MFDBs would be in common use for shooting action sports. Perhaps you should consider why smaller, lower-resolution formats are most commonly used for such tasks.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2007, 12:40:08 pm by Jonathan Wienke »
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BJL

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« Reply #77 on: January 02, 2007, 12:52:28 pm »

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BJL ( is that your name ?)

However, simple geometry does indicate that when cropping a given sensor you will worsen the effects of camera shake, and equally the effects of noise as you thereby increase print magnification.
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Firstly, as to my name: I am perhaps paranoid about broadcasting my real name too much on the SPAM infested internet, but since you sort of asked, my first name is Brenton.

About shake, simple geometry suggest to me that the effect of shake is measured by the ratio of the angular movement during the exposure time to the angular FOV. So of course if you crop to a narrower FOV and use the same exposure time, you expect shake effects to be more visible. But I would not expect any increase in visible camera hake blurring from using a smaller formats to record an image covering the same angular FOV (E.g. using a focal length and sensor that are smaller in the same proportion.) That is what I asked about details like the focal lengths uses with the two cameras.

Unless of course one allows for the greater moment of inertia (due to greater size and weight) of the 1DsMkII --- but weight can easily be added to a camera.
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eronald

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« Reply #78 on: January 02, 2007, 03:22:47 pm »

With due respect, Jonathan, I believe you are choosing a bad example with the 1Ds successors.

My opinion is that the sensor, postprocessing and focus of the 1DsII was botched, to the extent that it's much worse than the 1Ds. A better comparison would be something like the 20D and 60D. I put my money where my mouth is: I don't take the 1DsII to fashion shows in spite of its nominally higher ISOs because shooting them side by side showed me that the 1Ds is more usable in practice.

Edmund

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It's far from nonsense, it's inescapable physics. The whole point of increasing sensor resolution is to capture more overall image detail. When camera shake, motion blur, focus errors, or lens aberrations degrade resolution to a greater degree than pixel-size blur, the advantage of adding additional sensor pixels is compromised or for all practical intents eliminated. The smaller your sensor pixels are, the easier it is for other blurring factors to overwhelm pixel-size blur and degrade image quality to something far less than it could otherwise be.

That is why people who compared the 1Ds and 1Ds-MkII generally found less of an image quality advantage by upgrading to the 1Ds-MkII than might be expected solely from the difference in pixel count and the generational improvement of the 1Ds-II's sensor. The 11MP 1Ds is already quite demanding on most available lenses, and a lens that struggles to satisfy the 1Ds has an even more difficult time meeting the demands of the 1Ds-MkII. When aberrations, whatever their cause, are > 1 pixel in size, there is very little benefit to throwing more pixels at the problem. The more significant the aberrations are, the less significant the benefit derived from the extra pixels will be. And the smaller the pixels are, the easier it is for the aberrations to negate the benefits of additional pixels.

If your assertions were correct, then handheld MFDBs would be in common use for shooting action sports. Perhaps you should consider why smaller, lower-resolution formats are most commonly used for such tasks.
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Ray

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larger sensors
« Reply #79 on: January 02, 2007, 05:35:59 pm »

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Going to a crop-frame camera (with a reduction in lens focal length) wll up the enlargement factor and increase the effects of shake (on fixed-sized prints). Large-format cameras should display less shake effects when fixed-size results are compared eg. 8x10.
Edmund
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Edmund,
This is what I also believe to be broadly true. The question has often been asked on this forum, 'Does the 1/FL rule apply to cropped format cameras such as the D60, 10D etc?' The answer has always been (from Michael R as well), no. The rule becomes 1/1.6FL or 1/35mmFL where 35mmFL is the 'effective' focal length in 35mm terms.

However, there is an assumption in this answer that needs to be spelled out, and a few minor discrepancies resulting from different pixel densities in cameras being compared. The faster than 1/FL shutter speed with the smaller format is only required if the intention is to enlarge the smaller format image to the same size as the larger format image.

I would imagine if different size prints are compared that represent the native resolution of both cameras (ie. neither uprezzing nor downrezzing has taken place for printing purposes), then (for same FoV scenes) in situations where a 1/80th shutter speed would be appropriate for a 1Ds2 with 80mm lens, a 1/50th shutter speed would be appropriate for a D60 with 50mm lens.

I should add, for the benefit of Bill Janes, that the question as to whether or not the 1/FL rule is adequate for sharp images is quite irrelevant. I use it purely for illustrative purposes. One has to have a reference point. Make it 1/4FL if you like.

The question for me is, having established an adequate shutter speed for a tack sharp image with a given lens and format, how much faster does that shutter speed need to be if we increase the pixel count, and print size in proportion, but keep the format and lens the same?

My view is, we should increase the shutter speed in proportion to the increased resolving power of the sensor, but not for equal size prints, but for prints that express the native resolution of both sensors, at a ppi sufficient to convey the maximum detail to the paper, that can be detected by anyone with normal vision from a 'reading' distance.
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