US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)

Biden

14 (66.7%)

Trump

7 (33.3%)

Total Members Voted: 21

Voting closed: November 02, 2020, 06:25:59 pm

[Alan Klein]

Secretary of Defence?

[jeremyrh]

To elaborate: if the country is roughly split 50/50, it stands to reason that most segments of the society would be approximately the same.

It doesn't though, does it? Are blacks split 50:50? Millionaires?

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

...  Are blacks split 50:50?...

Given their recent presence in the media, you'd think indeed they are 50% of the US population

But of course, you are just making a smart-ass comment, taking my statement out of context, while I clearly indicated what kind of segments I was talking about. The larger a segment, the more likely it would follow the national pattern. Now, it is clear that there are some segments that are overwhelmingly liberal, like those ivory-tower idiots in academia.

As for millionaires, not sure of the exact split, but there are a number of leftie idiots there too, so quite possible it is indeed 50/50.

EDIT: changed "most" into "many" in the OP, to avoid smart-ass comments by some 

[Robert Roaldi]

I don't know if it's ok for the President to pressure the Justice Dept to investigate a political rival (actually the son of a political rival) but demanding that the findings be released before the election seems a bit previous, https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/521827-trump-demands-barr-investigate-hunter-biden.. White collar crime usually takes a bit longer than 2-3 weeks to investigate, so this seems like wishful thinking. Besides, if they haven't moved on this file in the past 4 years, it suggests that there is not enough there to move on. I mean, it's not as if Obama or Hilary have been in charge at Justice since 2016.

[Alan Klein]

I don't know if it's ok for the President to pressure the Justice Dept to investigate a political rival (actually the son of a political rival) but demanding that the findings be released before the election seems a bit previous, https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/521827-trump-demands-barr-investigate-hunter-biden.. White collar crime usually takes a bit longer than 2-3 weeks to investigate, so this seems like wishful thinking. Besides, if they haven't moved on this file in the past 4 years, it suggests that there is not enough there to move on. I mean, it's not as if Obama or Hilary have been in charge at Justice since 2016.

I agree with you.  Trump learned from the Obama administration and figures he can do it too.  Of course by doing this, he weakens his argument against presidents who use the enforcement, taxing,  and security agencies of the US to go after political opponents, which is wrong.  Trump's no better than Obama was by doing it. 

On the other hand, if there is real evidence that a politician used their position for monetary gain at the expense of the country, they should be investigated.  After all, wasn't that the excuse for the investigation of Russian collusion against Trump? And Trump did call for the Ukraine to investigate earlier this year.  OF course, Obama was smarter than TRump.  He let Hillary create the dossier and had it passed through his subordinates to the FBI to go after TRump, keep above the fray so he could claim deniability.  That isn't Trump's style.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

My 2 50 cents:

[Ray]

Besides, if they haven't moved on this file in the past 4 years, it suggests that there is not enough there to move on.

Interesting point. I can't help wondering if the 'dirt' on Biden has been deliberately withheld in order to help Biden's selection as presidential nominee.

In other words, no matter how bad the sitting president is, if his opponent is shown to be even worse, at voting time, then the sitting president will likely win another term.

I recently read that the Director of National Intelligence, John Ratcliffe, has declared that there is no evidence that Hunter Biden's laptop is part of some 'Russian disinformation campaign'.

[Manoli]

Unsure whether or not this surprises me.

More than 100,000 Californians have bought a gun in response to Covid-19 crisis, report finds

More than a hundred thousand Californians have bought a gun since the onset of the coronavirus pandemic, a new report has found, in a surge of gun sales that has experts worried about the risk of suicide and deadly instances of domestic violence.

Researchers at the University of California, Davis, found that 110,000 people in California purchased a firearm in direct response to the coronavirus. About 47,000 of the buyers were first-time gun owners. Buyers cited concerns over civil unrest, economic downturns, and the release of thousands from state prisons.

The survey found that the fear of being attacked in one’s neighborhood was a prime driver of gun ownership among those who got a gun due to the pandemic and its fallout. Nearly 70% of respondents said they were most concerned about robbery, and 50% said their fears stemmed from police violence. Social upheaval and large-scale protests over police killings and racial violence have also fueled some of the fears survey-takers described.

Since March, the FBI has reported historically high numbers of firearm background checks going through its system. And according to the National Shooting Sports Foundation, by August there were nearly 5 million first-time gun buyers across the US.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.10.03.20206367v1.full.pdf

[LesPalenik]

I dont care.  It was a beautiful fall day, and I am not sacrificing it by breathing recycled humid breath just because some people out there have gone done the mask rabbit hole.  If you dont like that I refuse to wear a mask in a orchard or a forest, I really dont care anymore.  I just dont. 

I'll wear a mask around the elderly and inside interior businesses that require it of me.  Other than that, I'm just not doing it.

In Indonesia, people caught without masks are forced to dig graves and lie in coffins as a punishment for breaking coronavirus rules.

[Robert Roaldi]

In Indonesia, people caught without masks are forced to dig graves and lie in coffins as a punishment for breaking coronavirus rules.

Timely punishment for Halloween.

[kers]

a BBC article about obstructions to vote;
https://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2020-54240651

10-hour waits
In Georgia, thousands of voters waited hours just to cast their ballot during early voting. Many attribute the long wait to voter enthusiasm, but other factors - like a limited number of polls, understaffing or computer glitches - have also been blamed.
It's not known how many people are put off from voting because of the queues. But it's clear who it inconveniences more.

In principle you would think that in a democracy all political parties would encourage people to vote; however that is not the case.
As i see the 14th amendment seems to be aimed to give all citizen equal basic rights- like the right to vote.
'The founders' forgot some groups, but now it should be equal for everyone to vote without being obstructed.
I would say a more important basic right than the possession of guns.

[Robert Roaldi]

a BBC article about obstructions to vote;
https://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2020-54240651
In principle you would think that in a democracy all political parties would encourage people to vote; however that is not the case.
As i see the 14th amendment seems to be aimed to give all citizen equal basic rights- like the right to vote.
'The founders' forgot some groups, but now it should be equal for everyone to vote without being obstructed.
I would say a more important basic right than the possession of guns.

As an outsider I am amazed at the things I read about US voting. Standards and equipment vary from place to place, the political parties seem to exert influence over the mechanics of voting, it's just so incredible to me. If you wanted to design a system that could be gamed by bad actors, this would be a good way to do it. I just hope it's not actually as bad as it seems.

Long waits in specific locales seem like such an easy thing to prevent. You know how many people live there, should be easy to figure out where to optimally place voting stations. We do it all the time with gas stations, pizza joints, etc. Hard to conclude it's not deliberate, simple incompetence should have been eliminated long ago.

[Alan Klein]

a BBC article about obstructions to vote;
https://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2020-54240651
In principle you would think that in a democracy all political parties would encourage people to vote; however that is not the case.
As i see the 14th amendment seems to be aimed to give all citizen equal basic rights- like the right to vote.
'The founders' forgot some groups, but now it should be equal for everyone to vote without being obstructed.
I would say a more important basic right than the possession of guns.

If a despotic regime takes away your freedoms, you might be able to get it back if you have a gun. However:

If you’re looking for the right to vote, you won’t find it in the United States Constitution or the Bill of Rights.

The Bill of Rights recognizes the core rights of citizens in a democracy, including freedom of religion, speech, press and assembly. It then recognizes several insurance policies against an abusive government that would attempt to limit these liberties: weapons; the privacy of houses and personal information; protections against false criminal prosecution or repressive civil trials; and limits on excessive punishments by the government.

But the framers of the Constitution never mentioned a right to vote. They didn’t forget – they intentionally left it out. To put it most simply, the founders didn’t trust ordinary citizens to endorse the rights of others.

They were creating a radical experiment in self-government paired with the protection of individual rights that are often resented by the majority. As a result, they did not lay out an inherent right to vote because they feared rule by the masses would mean the destruction of – not better protection for – all the other rights the Constitution and Bill of Rights uphold. Instead, they highlighted other core rights over the vote, creating a tension that remains today.
https://theconversation.com/the-right-to-vote-is-not-in-the-constitution-144531

[Alan Klein]

As an outsider I am amazed at the things I read about US voting. Standards and equipment vary from place to place, the political parties seem to exert influence over the mechanics of voting, it's just so incredible to me. If you wanted to design a system that could be gamed by bad actors, this would be a good way to do it. I just hope it's not actually as bad as it seems.

Long waits in specific locales seem like such an easy thing to prevent. You know how many people live there, should be easy to figure out where to optimally place voting stations. We do it all the time with gas stations, pizza joints, etc. Hard to conclude it's not deliberate, simple incompetence should have been eliminated long ago.

Since when is a government not incompetent? Of course, in the US, multiply it by 50 as each of the 50 states design their own method of voting.  Remember hanging chads.  Well that was in FLorida.  Frankly, I think the Iraqi method of dipping your finger into purple ink is a rather good method.  The dead would find it harder to vote.

[Alan Klein]

As an outsider I am amazed at the things I read about US voting. Standards and equipment vary from place to place, the political parties seem to exert influence over the mechanics of voting, it's just so incredible to me. If you wanted to design a system that could be gamed by bad actors, this would be a good way to do it. I just hope it's not actually as bad as it seems.

Long waits in specific locales seem like such an easy thing to prevent. You know how many people live there, should be easy to figure out where to optimally place voting stations. We do it all the time with gas stations, pizza joints, etc. Hard to conclude it's not deliberate, simple incompetence should have been eliminated long ago.

In NYC, voting booths are set up for each voting district in the nearest public school within that voting district.  But in order to vote, there are attendants there who have the voting registers for all pre-registered voters in that district.  When you go there to vote, you have to sign in into the register after showing identification.  That also prevents multiple voting. 

How do you set up multiple voting places where you live and assure only one vote by the legal person who is voting?

[faberryman]

OMG! OMG! OMG!

Five Alarm News Alert:

In late breaking news, CNN is reporting that the New York Times has found out that Trump has been doing business in China, has a bank account in China, and has paid taxes in China. Even his lawyer admits it. So Trump has been conspiring with the Chinese Communist Party all along. Tariffs my ass. He may even have been sexually abusing underage Chinese girls too. Just because I haven't seen a story in the media about it doesn't mean it didn't happen. I mean haven't you ever heard about black swans?* The whole thing looks like an open and shut case to me. Lock him up! Lock him up! Lock him up!

https://www.cnn.com/2020/10/20/politics/trump-china-taxes-financial-records/index.html

I have to admit I was doubtful, but this apeshit frenzy stuff is everything it is cracked up to be, particularly after taking a couple of those kava energy pills Alex Jones has been talking about. No more mild-mannered Shoeshine Boy for me.

* Just in case you didn't really pay all that much attention in your college philosophy course, perhaps because the only reason you signed up for it in the first place was to fulfill one of your elective requirements, I'll tell you about it. You see, for thousands of years, everyone, including the scientists and philosophers, believed that all swans were white, because no one had ever seen a swan that wasn't white. Then this explorer went to Australia or somewhere, and lo and behold, he saw a black swan. So he took a photograph of it, and sailed back to wherever he came from, and showed the photograph of the black swan to all of the royal science and philosophy societies, and everyone said well what do you know all swans aren't white. At least that's what everyone believed for a little while. Now some people, let's call them black swan deniers, believe that all swans are white again, because they are convinced that the explorer guy's photograph of the black swan was photoshopped. There are some interesting parallels to the whole climate change thing, but I really don't feel like going into it right now.

[PeterAit]

a BBC article about obstructions to vote;
https://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2020-54240651
In principle you would think that in a democracy all political parties would encourage people to vote; however that is not the case.
As i see the 14th amendment seems to be aimed to give all citizen equal basic rights- like the right to vote.
'The founders' forgot some groups, but now it should be equal for everyone to vote without being obstructed.
I would say a more important basic right than the possession of guns.

It's very telling that everything, and I mean EVERYTHING, that the GOP has done or tried to do with respect to voting has, or would have, the effect of decreasing turnout. In contrast, Dems all over the country are working to increase turnout. Bottom line, the GOP is afraid of the voters and the Dems are not. And they keep bleating "voter fraud" which is essentially non-existent. Except, of course, for two cases that were promulgated by the GOP--absentee ballot harvesting here in NC during the 2018 congressional election, and fake ballot drop-off boxed in California.

[John Camp]

Interesting point. I can't help wondering if the 'dirt' on Biden has been deliberately withheld in order to help Biden's selection as presidential nominee.

In other words, no matter how bad the sitting president is, if his opponent is shown to be even worse, at voting time, then the sitting president will likely win another term.

I recently read that the Director of National Intelligence, John Ratcliffe, has declared that there is no evidence that Hunter Biden's laptop is part of some 'Russian disinformation campaign'.

Ratcliffe is an ultra-conservative former congressman from Texas who was appointed as Director of National Intelligence specifically to support Trump. When Trump first announced that he planned to appoint Ratcliffe to the job, Republican members of the Senate suggested that they would not approve the appointment, and Trump withdrew it. Trump then later did appoint him, despite continuing objections from both parties, and he was narrowly approved, though he had no previous experience in intelligence work. He's a political hack.

[faberryman]

... and fake ballot drop-off boxed in California.

Holy Cannoli! Maybe that's where Trump's incriminating laptop is hidden. I bet James Comey is getting a no knock search warrant right now. Oh, wait...

[Robert Roaldi]

In NYC, voting booths are set up for each voting district in the nearest public school within that voting district.  But in order to vote, there are attendants there who have the voting registers for all pre-registered voters in that district.  When you go there to vote, you have to sign in into the register after showing identification.  That also prevents multiple voting. 

Sounds a lot like what goes on here, more or less. The bureaucracy that looks after all that is called Elections Canada and they run things to the same standard all across the country, from keeping voter rolls, to hiring and training temporary staff, to counting ballots, etc. There are permanent staff who run the place and it operates at arm's length from politicians.

What I was getting at was that what you describe in NYC sounds more or less like a good way to do things. Why would you do it any other way, all the best practices are well understood by now pretty much all over the world. How is it possible for it NOT to run like that in some places, and get away with it, unless some bad actors like it that way? But as I said before, maybe we just hear the horror stories, and that they are not common.