PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

...the big military parade in Moscow this month commemorating the 75th anniversary of the victory over Germany in World War II...

That sounds like a lofty reason for the parade. Contrast that with the parades going on in the States, where people glorify the accidental death of a criminal with a long rap sheet.

[Robert Roaldi]

where people glorify the accidental death of a criminal with a long rap sheet

Accidental?  That's an interesting way to characterize what happened.

[faberryman]

Apparently my wife has good company. The New York TImes agrees with her.

In the W.H.O.’s Coronavirus Stumbles, Some Scientists See a Pattern
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/09/health/coronavirus-asymptomatic-world-health-organization.html

You didn't read the article. You just read the headline and made a bunch of assumptions.

[LesPalenik]

Accidental?  That's an interesting way to characterize what happened.

Indeed, accidental is a wrong description. So is the painting and celebration of the criminal as an outstanding and exemplary citizen.
Here is how an African-American young female characterized the newly declared saint:
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fij8TP0FE00

[Alan Klein]

You didn't read the article. You just read the headline and made a bunch of assumptions.

I read the article and it confirmed my point. WHO gave contradictory information that was confusing to experts and the public.

[kers]

I read the article and it confirmed my point.....

The way you say this is as you read the article afterwards...

[faberryman]

I read the article and it confirmed my point. WHO gave contradictory information that was confusing to experts and the public.

And you think that was the thrust of the article?

But the real enigma is why you and your wife are listening to the WHO in the first place.  You believe they are a propaganda arm of the Chinese Communist Party. That's why Trump ceased funding and pulled out of the WHO, or so the story goes.

[John Camp]

I think it's time to stick a fork in this thread. Reconvene in September for the election insanity.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

Accidental?  That's an interesting way to characterize what happened.

Really!? Did you read the charges? Both charges are based on unintentional murder, thus accidental.

[hogloff]

Really!? Did you read the charges? Both charges are based on unintentional murder, thus accidental.

I'm not so sure unintentional implies accidental. Hard to see someone pinning down another person by kneeling on their neck for almost 9 minutes, the last three of which the person did not move, to be an accident. Seems to me an accidental act would not carry up to 40 years of prison.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

I'm not so sure unintentional implies accidental. Hard to see someone pinning down another person by kneeling on their neck for almost 9 minutes, the last three of which the person did not move, to be an accident. Seems to me an accidental act would not carry up to 40 years of prison.

The guy was applying a standard restraining technique in a very calm manner, knowing he is video recorded, which means he didn't think he was doing anything wrong.

This isn't the first time a person died under the very same technique. I already posted the case in Dallas from a few years ago, where all participants were white, and the dead guy wasn't even a criminal, but a schizophrenic who ran out of his medication (unknown to cops at the time). And I also posted a picture of "white privilege" where two knees were placed on a white guy's neck.

Repeating part of my earlier post:

Here is a link to a Washington Post article of a similar case in Texas:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/08/01/police-laughed-joked-he-lost-consciousness-handcuffs-minutes-later-he-died/?fbclid=IwAR0RRTTX8-UVESEbmxPy65hLUGha_aLl_TkUxKp22K-krhpnyBz5HkpBm5A

All actors were white.

 

[Alan Klein]

The way you say this is as you read the article afterwards...

I read it before.  You're wrong again.

[Alan Klein]

I think it's time to stick a fork in this thread. Reconvene in September for the election insanity.

This thread is about Covid 19, the science, economics and politics of it.  We're right in the middle of it.  Save your fork for lunch.   If you're not interested in this thread, why are you here?  Some one can start a separate thread on the presidential election.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

I'm not so sure unintentional implies accidental...

There might be more hairsplitting in legalise, but colloquially, it means the same:

[Chris Kern]

There might be more hairsplitting in legalise, but colloquially, it means the same . . .

Actually, U.S. law generally recognizes a spectrum that ranges from premeditated killings (maximum culpability), unpremeditated but intentional killings, unintentional killings in the course of the commission of another felony ("felony murder"), unintentional killings under other circumstances explicitly defined by statute to produce criminal liability, and killings that do not produce criminal liability but may produce civil liability.

Only the last of these could be described as genuinely accidental.  If a rented house has an unsafe condition that the landlord knew or should have known could cause an injury to a tenant, and the tenant is killed as a result of that unsafe condition, that really is an accident and the landlord is not guilty of a crime.  However, the tenant's survivors may be able recover damages from the landlord for causing the tenant's wrongful death.

The police officer in Minnesota was initially charged with "third-degree murder" under a somewhat unusual statutory provision in that state:

Whoever, without intent to effect the death of any person, causes the death of another by perpetrating an act eminently dangerous to others and evincing a depraved mind, without regard for human life, is guilty of murder in the third degree . . .

Subsequently, the charge was amended to felony-murder:

Whoever . . . causes the death of a human being, without intent to effect the death of any person, while committing or attempting to commit a felony offense . . . [shall be guilty of second-degree murder]

I understand why you might have concluded that, colloquially, "unintentional" is equivalent to "accidental," but the distinction is clear, and fundamental to the determination of whether someone has committed a crime―and the political as well as legal issue here is criminal misconduct by the police.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... I understand why you might have concluded that, colloquially, "unintentional" is equivalent to "accidental," but the distinction is clear, and fundamental to the determination of whether someone has committed a crime―and the political as well as legal issue here is criminal misconduct by the police.

Note that both charges contain the phrase "without intent." I have not found in your post any legal definition of "accidental." I am not arguing that "accidental" removes any criminal liability, just that it was unintentional.

[Alan Klein]

Actually, U.S. law generally recognizes a spectrum that ranges from premeditated killings (maximum culpability), unpremeditated but intentional killings, unintentional killings in the course of the commission of another felony ("felony murder"), unintentional killings under other circumstances explicitly defined by statute to produce criminal liability, and killings that do not produce criminal liability but may produce civil liability.

Only the last of these could be described as genuinely accidental.  If a rented house has an unsafe condition that the landlord knew or should have known could cause an injury to a tenant, and the tenant is killed as a result of that unsafe condition, that really is an accident and the landlord is not guilty of a crime.  However, the tenant's survivors may be able recover damages from the landlord for causing the tenant's wrongful death.

The police officer in Minnesota was initially charged with "third-degree murder" under a somewhat unusual statutory provision in that state:

Subsequently, the charge was amended to felony-murder:

I understand why you might have concluded that, colloquially, "unintentional" is equivalent to "accidental," but the distinction is clear, and fundamental to the determination of whether someone has committed a crime―and the political as well as legal issue here is criminal misconduct by the police.

Isn't it true, Chris, that because of their job of dealing with dangerous criminals and having to restrain them, they are given wider latitude in these definitions.  So while you or I would be guilty of battery or assault if we just put our knee on someone else, a cop's action is not be criminal if he uses reasonable force in his duties, even if the perpetrator is hurt or even killed.  Of course that's in the eyes of the beholder.  But in any case, it's the reason many cops are found not guilty in similar situations leaving city's to pay monetary awards to the family for civil liability, which might happen here, despite the heavy political overtones. 

[Chris Kern]

Isn't it true, Chris, that because of their job of dealing with dangerous criminals and having to restrain them, they are given wider latitude in these definitions.

The criminal statutes apply the same to everyone.  (Or at least they are intended to.)

Police officers do have limited ("qualified") immunity from civil liability for civil rights violations, but the propriety of that doctrine increasingly has been questioned and it is currently being reconsidered by the U.S. Supreme Court.

So while you or I would be guilty of battery or assault if we just put our knee on someone else, a cop's action is not be criminal if he uses reasonable force in his duties, even if the perpetrator is hurt or even killed.

In general, the police can only use as much force as is necessary for them to fulfill their law enforcement responsibilities or to protect themselves.  However, again as a general rule, the police do have discretion to use less force than would be necessary for them to carry out their responsibilities, based on their judgment of circumstances on the ground: for example, there have been instances during the recent protest demonstrations where police agencies decided not to use what would be legally-acceptable methods to enforce nighttime curfews—as well, unfortunately, as some new documented instances where they appeared to use excessive force.

[Jeremy Roussak]

This is a thread about the virus, as is fairly readily apparent from its title. STOP discussing other matters, or I will shut it down; and it will not be replaced.

Jeremy

[Alan Klein]

Yes sir.

OK.  My town had another day of zero Covid cases.  I think that's the third zero day in two weeks or so.  I think a couple more people died.  My wife and I are still hiding out.