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Author Topic: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political  (Read 495395 times)

JoeKitchen

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #760 on: April 14, 2020, 09:26:44 am »

Right, so what's wrong with having them all at the table? It's not as if on the day you start to lift restrictions that the pandemic will go away.

What's the benefit of having him gone? Is it so important that no one contradict Trump? Is that really what's important here.

Were did I say he should go away?  Do I need to explain how quotations ("") work?  Do I need to explain that just because a writer quotes a person that does not mean he or she agrees with that person?  Do we really need to go over this? 

You're putting words in people's mouths again. 
« Last Edit: April 14, 2020, 09:31:26 am by JoeKitchen »
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Craig Lamson

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #761 on: April 14, 2020, 09:34:06 am »

Lots of chattter about Trump saying its his call to open the country.  Can he do it?  That will be a call for the Supreme Court in the end.  Personally I don't think he can but time will tell.

But what can he do?  He can issue his directive that this is how the country is going to reopen.  States can take it or leave it if they choose.  But will they?  Will their people allow it? Will one state who decides to stay closed while ther neighbor opens feel the push to reopen too.

So what can the States do?  There is now a compact between three western states and some in the northeast.  I'm not sure this is legel since I believe ( not researched yet so I could be wrong) that states cannot enter into a compact with another state without congressional approval.  And If I'm correct that is yet another thing that may well face legal challenge and head to the Supreme court.  Or not.  I understand why these states would find this to be a good thing, but it also has the chance of killing their economy if other states are opens they remain closed.  That is gonna piss people off.

So what can the President do?  Like I said he can issue his directive and say, open it up on this schedule.  It would either be followed by the States or not. He can end the National Emegency and all the funding and services that go to the states along with it.  He can also, since he must approve of each States declaration of an Emergency, end those.  That would reduce the power of each State to do certain things and also eliminate some funding.   Neither of these woud be popular but they remain in the Prsidents toolbox.  And then there is the National Defence Production Act.  Its could be possible for the President to just say every business in the US in vital to our National Defence and must be opened.  This one would is a bit of a push  and a bunch of people would go nuts, and court cases would follow.  But its a possibility.  How about the Interstate Commerce Clause?  Not sure about that one.  The point here is that the President has some options and I'm sure he and his legal team could find a few more.  All of these are sure to be challenged legally...just like what would have happend if he had tried to close the country down in the beginning.

What will he do?  I'm not sure, but I suspect he will issue his directive and thats going to be it.  It will pressure some to open and it will likely resonate with people who are out of work and want to get back to earning money.  I'm sure many will be just fine with setting home and raking in the government cash, State unemployment and the extra 600 a week in fed cash.  In Indiana thats almost a Thousand bucks a week per worker. For a lot of people thats more than they earn working so there will be little incentive for them to go back to work.  You get 26 weeks of that if I'm not mistaken.  He would still have his bully pulpit to scold those who don't and praise those that do.

Trump will be far better off in my opinion to issue his directive and then let the States do their thing.  Suscess or failure will ride on thier shoulders.  But lets face it no matter what he does or does not do, there will wails from the peanut gallery that he is kiiling people or killing the economy.  Its just the nature of the beast.

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elliot_n

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #762 on: April 14, 2020, 09:39:09 am »

In all of this, I think it is important to look at Sweden, which has taken a completely different approach.  Many on here will say Sweden is screwed, but their deaths per million is on par with many other nations take much more draconian measures.

They simply are not doing any worse then many others, and yet they have managed to thread the needle much better then we have and the rest of the world.

Sweden is doing much worse than its Scandinavian neighbours. It has 4 times the deaths per million of Norway, 2 x Denmark, 8 x Finland, 4 x Iceland.
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JoeKitchen

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #763 on: April 14, 2020, 09:40:17 am »

Sweden is doing much worse than its Scandinavian neighbours. It has 4 times the deaths per million of Norway, 2 x Denmark, 8 x Finland, 4 x Iceland.

How about compared to Italy, Spain, France etc.? 

PS, as of this morning, here are the figures on deaths per million in Sweden and other countries.  Sweden is 8th on the list and about a 1/4 the amount of the top three. 
« Last Edit: April 14, 2020, 09:46:02 am by JoeKitchen »
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Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #764 on: April 14, 2020, 09:40:26 am »

All valid discussion points until you got to the Fauci take-down. Do you really think he doesn't understand all the variables that a bunch of yobs on a photo forum have dreamed up? Give me a break. He has done the job through 4 (or is it 6) Presidents now, I'm sure he has seen it all and knows far more about it than you or me. Has the Trump-troll-propaganda machine decided that Fauci is out now because he's polling better than Trump. Why wouldn't you want his voice at the table?

Fauci confirmed that Trump has followed the medical recommendations including Fauci's since day one.  He said it yesterday at the news conference.  He also said starting earlier with a shutdown would have saved more lives but the facts in the early stages didn't call for that.  He also said that what Trump did by limiting travel from China in January helped to save lives as did the subsequent shutdown from Europe and then Great Britain. Trump shut down travel despite complaints by Speaker Pelosi and other Democrats as well as CNN and MSNBC that he was  a racist and xenophobic for doing it.

That's why those two stations shut down Trump's video showing their previous statements at the news conference.  Because it showed them as phonies and liars.  They were embarrassed by the truth getting out how they were the ones opposed to the travel limitations early in the outbreak. 

Robert Roaldi

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #765 on: April 14, 2020, 09:50:28 am »

I regret getting caught up in the minutiae of day to day US politics. It's a shit show, and I don't follow it because I'm not interested.

The question remains. What will happen between now and the time of restriction lifting that makes you think there won't be a resurgence of infection?
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Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #766 on: April 14, 2020, 09:52:07 am »

First, it was not me who said it.  I merely provided the quote to show that this opening up the economy is picking up steam.  When house members start openly talking about it, you start to be on the loosing side.  If you fight it, you are just not going to win. 

Like I said, would you rather have a everyone just goes out and does their thing, or have a more controlled release?  If you keep on fighting this, you're just going to be ignored like those sidewalk preachers downtown. 

Second, Dr. Fauci's expertise is in pandemics, not economics.  Like I mentioned before, experts, by definition, have a very narrow field of view, so he has no credibility on economic issues, and it shows.  He may know more then you or I on pandemics, but certainly not on economics.  That is why we have separate experts called economists.  We should be listening to both him and economists to find a path forward, which needs to determined by our leaders not experts.

Last, as Alan pointed out, experts are not always right. 
Trump has put together an "expert" committee of medical, business and economic specialists.  All issues will be on the table.  I suspect that it will be a compromise as these things never have a perfect way of coming to conclusions.  That's because everyone has their favorite way of doing things and their field of expertise effect that.  Also, there are always unknowns and no one can predict the future.  All squabbling will have to be settled in private. When the plan is announced publicly, all parties will be at the conference. They all will support it.  That's a requirement to get the public on-board.  Trump will get credit as he should as the leader thanking all the participants who will swear they're all in favor of the final plan. 

chez

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #767 on: April 14, 2020, 09:54:49 am »

I regret getting caught up in the minutiae of day to day US politics. It's a shit show, and I don't follow it because I'm not interested.

The question remains. What will happen between now and the time of restriction lifting that makes you think there won't be a resurgence of infection?

Yes US politics is a made for TV soap opera...and it has so many Americans hooked in that Trump loves to take the stage and put a performance on for his audience. Really...really pitiful...but it's making America great again. Lemmings heading to the edge.
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elliot_n

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #768 on: April 14, 2020, 09:58:38 am »

How about compared to Italy, Spain, France etc.? 

PS, as of this morning, here are the figures on deaths per million in Sweden and other countries.  Sweden is 8th on the list and about a 1/4 the amount of the top three. 

Yes, Sweden is doing significantly better than France, Italy, and Spain, but it's doing much worse than any of its immediate neighbours. It's certainly a country to watch. I'll be surprised if it doesn't lock down in the next week or two.
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JoeKitchen

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #769 on: April 14, 2020, 09:59:42 am »

I regret getting caught up in the minutiae of day to day US politics. It's a shit show, and I don't follow it because I'm not interested.

The question remains. What will happen between now and the time of restriction lifting that makes you think there won't be a resurgence of infection?

Of course, but we have to start getting our economy back on track.  We cant just hid inside, especially with a fatality rate as low as it is.  If this were Ebola death rates (80%) I would be inside until next year.  But less then 1%  for someone like me. 

Our medical system did not get overwhelmed in NYC, and no one died due to a lack of care.  Of course, the system did go into overdrive, but the important part is no died due to lack of care. 
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Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #770 on: April 14, 2020, 10:01:12 am »

I regret getting caught up in the minutiae of day to day US politics. It's a shit show, and I don't follow it because I'm not interested.

The question remains. What will happen between now and the time of restriction lifting that makes you think there won't be a resurgence of infection?
If you're not interested and don't follow it, why do you keep making political statements about it?

Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #771 on: April 14, 2020, 10:05:06 am »

Yes, Sweden is doing significantly better than France, Italy, and Spain, but it's doing much worse than any of its immediate neighbours. It's certainly a country to watch. I'll be surprised if it doesn't lock down in the next week or two.
It's good that countries are taking different paths.  It will give us a basis of comparison and provide clues how best to handle similar situations in the future. It may help America as each of the states take a different path as well as some of them have already.  We'll be able to analyse economic, health, infection patterns, and other related details that will make us more knowledgeable.  It's like when they do studies and have control groups.  How else do you know if a particular way is the best?

Robert Roaldi

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #772 on: April 14, 2020, 10:16:04 am »

If you're not interested and don't follow it, why do you keep making political statements about it?

If you look back I don't discuss politics very often, although I have fallen into the trap from time to time. When I do it's usually to illuminate some contradiction. You insist on bringing your own politics into every discussion possible, and you seem to think every discussion is about Trump. For someone who claims not to believe in government, your sycophancy is confusing to me.
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chez

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #773 on: April 14, 2020, 10:16:30 am »

It's good that countries are taking different paths.  It will give us a basis of comparison and provide clues how best to handle similar situations in the future. It may help America as each of the states take a different path as well as some of them have already.  We'll be able to analyse economic, health, infection patterns, and other related details that will make us more knowledgeable.  It's like when they do studies and have control groups.  How else do you know if a particular way is the best?

There has been a history of dealing with various pandemics already...but if Trump disregards the experts in these fields, then you are starting from square one every time.

The chief medical doctor in British Columbia headed up the Ebola outbreak and SARS...so lots of experience. She has lead the province through the outbreak with the political talking heads taking a seat with the rest of us. We have been lead by a person with knowledge...and expert you so dislike, rather than someone on an election compaign guiding their decisions.
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elliot_n

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #774 on: April 14, 2020, 10:17:04 am »

The question remains. What will happen between now and the time of restriction lifting that makes you think there won't be a resurgence of infection?

As I said before, a complex system of state surveillance is required — i.e. widespread testing followed by forensic contact-tracing and quarantining. South Korea is doing this, with the help of smartphone apps.

If this isn't done, a second wave is inevitable, followed by a second lockdown.
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #775 on: April 14, 2020, 10:27:50 am »

As I said before, a complex system of state surveillance is required — i.e. widespread testing followed by forensic contact-tracing and quarantining. South Korea is doing this, with the help of smartphone apps.

If this isn't done, a second wave is inevitable, followed by a second lockdown.

Yes thanks, I appreciate that, didn't mean to make you repeat yourself. It's just that I am not seeing much general acknowledgment that some action even needs to be taken. It's as if people are saying that as soon as the graphs start to level off, then it's all good to go.
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faberryman

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #776 on: April 14, 2020, 10:31:20 am »

Second, Dr. Fauci's expertise is in pandemics, not economics.  Like I mentioned before, experts, by definition, have a very narrow field of view, so he has no credibility on economic issues, and it shows.  He may know more then you or I on pandemics, but certainly not on economics.  That is why we have separate experts called economists.  We should be listening to both him and economists to find a path forward, which needs to determined by our leaders not experts.
Don't forget Jared and Ivanka too.
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Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #777 on: April 14, 2020, 10:33:51 am »

If you look back I don't discuss politics very often, although I have fallen into the trap from time to time. When I do it's usually to illuminate some contradiction. You insist on bringing your own politics into every discussion possible, and you seem to think every discussion is about Trump. For someone who claims not to believe in government, your sycophancy is confusing to me.
I started this thread.  I named it Covid 19 - Everything Political. Jeremy added PLAYPEN.  Regarding Trump, well, he does suck all the oxygen out of the room.  Everyone posting has something to say about him.  Even you. :)

Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #779 on: April 14, 2020, 10:37:02 am »

There has been a history of dealing with various pandemics already...but if Trump disregards the experts in these fields, then you are starting from square one every time.

The chief medical doctor in British Columbia headed up the Ebola outbreak and SARS...so lots of experience. She has lead the province through the outbreak with the political talking heads taking a seat with the rest of us. We have been lead by a person with knowledge...and expert you so dislike, rather than someone on an election compaign guiding their decisions.
Fauci confirmed yesterday that Trump has followed all medical advice from the beginning.  You need to keep up with the real news and stop repeating the fake news. 
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