PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political

[jeremyrh]

  As is the purpose of all those prolonged lockdowns in Democratic states.

Or maybe it's to do with saving lives, eh?

[LesPalenik]

Lockdowns were well intended, but in some cases poorly executed. Nothing wrong with closing non-essential places like tattoo parlors or churches. But a lot of people died or needlessly suffered because the medical offices were closed for 3-4 months.

The street demonstrations were irresponsible, juvenile and self-indulgent activities, causing tremendous damage in needless infections, deaths, and in some cases renewed lockdowns.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

Trouble is, Craig, it's the people that bring the virus into the environment. They don't catch the virus from the church air, they catch it from each other.

Clean air before they arrive is irrelevant.

Hmmm...

(bold mine)

Six months into the coronavirus crisis, there’s a growing consensus about a central question: How do people become infected?

It’s not common to contract Covid-19 from a contaminated surface, scientists say. And fleeting encounters with people outdoors are unlikely to spread the coronavirus.

Instead, the major culprit is close-up, person-to-person interactions for extended periods. Crowded events, poorly ventilated areas and places where people are talking loudly—or singing, in one famous case—maximize the risk.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-exactly-do-you-catch-covid-19-there-is-a-growing-consensus-11592317650?mod=e2fb&fbclid=IwAR14MELQkS3zkGPoBSzW8ypWDoj_vW8LSBuNdB41JdETtazXbhIb9cPBxZs&fbclid=IwAR1t8eg9ChCvb5bA2Au75TFcSEQImILmfzuACgYd7ug89wbvLy7pBEZGT3w&fbclid=IwAR3amkPa_JqZyC7rjaG7SMQ--Ms7gIKQ30SHUPJqJ4B1KaKk38KaV5w1NRk&fbclid=IwAR09Pc8VmZs50HOC3-fyry_DHNwi_fC5n0f5Ult_fcL23my8_ZkUjt5UoD0&fbclid=IwAR0Ib265_xms0BI5f70Lalc3RrbBIZ5z97uOn11Zk2zf-eHHVG5m0wWVC-o&fbclid=IwAR3eq84MYrYxQBthJngXts_je4bgbWhhPl-X2WgnGO9O2hnvf_kSClABgfY&fbclid=IwAR2v2TBfblYXEzdzXz_qedPpFPKXJafz7bHsLrXntibaQ82pooO46ehJ88g

[BernardLanguillier]

Reality these days is stranger than fiction, my friend.

But what was not a hoax is Bill Maher’s similar post/quote, wishing for a recession before the election, to topple Trump. As I am sure it is on many Democrats’ mind, though not that stupid to state it publicly.  As is the purpose of all those prolonged lockdowns in Democratic states.

Are you still supporting Trump after the revelations of Bolton?

That’s just insane my friend.

Why on earth would a recession be needed for Trump’s electors to come to terms with the reality of how disastrous a President he is?

As much as you hated Obama for who he was be consistent and look at who Trump is.

Cheers,
Bernard

[James Clark]

Lockdowns were well intended, but in some cases poorly executed. Nothing wrong with closing non-essential places like tattoo parlors or churches. But a lot of people died or needlessly suffered because the medical offices were closed for 3-4 months.

Did they? I haven't see much beyond anecdotal evidence of that, and even if so, I'd be very curious to look at numbers of actual people that died because of delayed treatment vs projected numbers of people that would have died without lockdowns. I strongly suspect the latter vastly outnumbers the former.  Also, maybe what you're suggesting is  unique to Canada, but certainly here (Austin, TX USA) medical offices and critical care remained open, oncologists still performed ongoing treatments, and I know, anecdotally, that my neighbor, a neurosurgeon, was still doing procedures as necessary.

 

[James Clark]

https://www.newsweek.com/houston-protesters-begin-fall-ill-coronavirus-after-marching-george-floyd-1511066?fbclid=IwAR01fqWlKVhy1_nr_9QQQdet8vN5ztk0WQ4_PBLd185tPquRM50c0LHH828

Zero doubt many people were infected at the protests. Whether you get it along with 17K other people protesting murder at the hands of the state or with millions 6,200 celebrating that same murderous state, you're equally boned.

[hogloff]

Did they? I haven't see much beyond anecdotal evidence of that, and even if so, I'd be very curious to look at numbers of actual people that died because of delayed treatment vs projected numbers of people that would have died without lockdowns. I strongly suspect the latter vastly outnumbers the former.  Also, maybe what you're suggesting is  unique to Canada, but certainly here (Austin, TX USA) medical offices and critical care remained open, oncologists still performed ongoing treatments, and I know, anecdotally, that my neighbor, a neurosurgeon, was still doing procedures as necessary.

 

Actually the same here in BC. Elective surgery was postponed, but anything needing immediate treatment still proceeded. My sister-in-law had cancer surgery about 6 weeks ago. My wife who has Parkinson's had her regular scheduled appointments...even though they were through zoom. I live near a hospital and can hear the ambulances 24 hours a day...they kept running just as usual.

Now there is a backlog of surgeries that is being worked on, but the vast majority of them were elective. And maybe some people were afraid from going to the hospital and suffered heart attacks or strokes at home...but that really is more on them than the health system because if they phoned 911, they would have gotten the treatment.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... that same murderous state...

Oh, James, please!

[James Clark]

Oh, James, please!

Please what?  Are you the only one allowed to indulge in hyperbole here???

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

Please what?  Are you the only one allowed to indulge in hyperbole here???

Ok, I see your hyperbole and raise you mine: USSA

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... As much as you hated Obama for who he was be consistent and look at who Trump is.

I think you are making an assumption that I was hating Obama for being black, instead for his policies? And by the same token, that I support Trump based on his personality? Neither is true, and in both cases I support or not their policies, not personalities.

[LesPalenik]

Actually the same here in BC. Elective surgery was postponed, but anything needing immediate treatment still proceeded. My sister-in-law had cancer surgery about 6 weeks ago. My wife who has Parkinson's had her regular scheduled appointments...even though they were through zoom. I live near a hospital and can hear the ambulances 24 hours a day...they kept running just as usual.

Now there is a backlog of surgeries that is being worked on, but the vast majority of them were elective. And maybe some people were afraid from going to the hospital and suffered heart attacks or strokes at home...but that really is more on them than the health system because if they phoned 911, they would have gotten the treatment.

Maybe it's different in BC. About a month ago, I visited briefly the Newmarket hospital (one of the largest in Ontario with 500 beds) and it was eerily empty. The main entrance and most of the halls ere dark and deserted, and just a few health workers were milling around.

When it comes to elective surgeries and cancer treatments (surgeries and chemotherapies), most new cases were postponed. I posted links about it a few months ago. Actually, I recall reading about some BC cancer patient who died because his treatments were postponed. Patients with bad knees and hips fall and suffer serious fractures. Or they are confined to staying in their homes. Many patients who were 3 months ago classified as needing elective surgeries are now in advanced stages and seriously ill or incapacitated. In some cases, this situation may lead to loneliness, depression and alcohol abuse and eventually to a suicide. 

Unfortunately, the deaths caused by the lack of access to diagnosis and the treatments are not collected nor published, so this information is currently not available.

Personally, I've been waiting to see a specialist for 4 months now, and due to the backlog they can't even now give me a date. Suffice to say, the actual situation is much worse than the superficial and incomplete assumptions.

Excess mortality can only be calculated on the basis of accurate, high-frequency data on mortality from previous years. But few countries have statistical agencies that have the capacity and infrastructure to report the number of people that died in a given month, week or even day-to-day.

https://ourworldindata.org/excess-mortality-covid
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm

[Alan Klein]

Same in New Jersey. A friend of mine thought he had the virus from his symptoms.  His regular doctor, trapped in Florida on vacation and not able to return to NJ, also confirmed that it sounded like the virus.  So after he felt better going through 2 weeks of pure torture and feeling a little better,  he went to another doctor who had the antibody tests and offered to test him.  During the examination he found he was way low on white blood cells due to losing a lot of blood.  It was discovered he had cancer.  So he was mistreated and had knowledge of his cancer delayed for weeks if not a couple of months. He's now undergoing chemo treatment. 

My regular doctor's office was closed.  Recently, I did a phone call examination with him, but no blood test.  How good could that be?  Forget dental work, also badly needed by me.  These are common situations throughout America.  People are not getting treated and are getting worse or dead because of it.

[LesPalenik]

The dentists in Ontario opened about 2 weeks ago, and they are working overtime to make up for all lost income and to clear their backlogs. I was lucky to call just when they opened and got in within a week.

If you need a hip or knee replacement, the current backlog just to see a surgeon is 3 months, and then 14-16 months waiting for the actual surgery.
On the bright side, if some patients die while they wait, the waiting time for others could be slightly shortened.

[hogloff]

Ok, I see your hyperbole and raise you mine: USSA

More like SA...they sure are not united.

[James Clark]

The dentists in Ontario opened about 2 weeks ago, and they are working overtime to make up for all lost income and to clear their backlogs. I was lucky to call just when they opened and got in within a week.

If you need a hip or knee replacement, the current backlog just to see a surgeon is 3 months, and then 14-16 months waiting for the actual surgery.
On the bright side, if some patients die while they wait, the waiting time for others could be slightly shortened.

I don't think anyone denies that there have been some inconveniences.  But to say that some have died as a result of them is meaningless unless weighed against the damage done by the alternative.  Not sure why this isn't obvious?

[hogloff]

Maybe it's different in BC. About a month ago, I visited briefly the Newmarket hospital (one of the largest in Ontario with 500 beds) and it was eerily empty. The main entrance and most of the halls ere dark and deserted, and just a few health workers were milling around.

When it comes to elective surgeries and cancer treatments (surgeries and chemotherapies), most new cases were postponed. I posted links about it a few months ago. Actually, I recall reading about some BC cancer patient who died because his treatments were postponed. Patients with bad knees and hips fall and suffer serious fractures. Or they are confined to staying in their homes. Many patients who were 3 months ago classified as needing elective surgeries are now in advanced stages and seriously ill or incapacitated. In some cases, this situation may lead to loneliness, depression and alcohol abuse and eventually to a suicide. 

Unfortunately, the deaths caused by the lack of access to diagnosis and the treatments are not collected nor published, so this information is currently not available.

Personally, I've been waiting to see a specialist for 4 months now, and due to the backlog they can't even now give me a date. Suffice to say, the actual situation is much worse than the superficial and incomplete assumptions.

https://ourworldindata.org/excess-mortality-covid
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm

I can understand the hospitals being more strict in Ontario...it was in such a mess just a month ago. BC was never in much of a crisis and surgeries that were critical continued.

I got sick with the flu and went in to get a Covid test...negative. But my doctor got the results, phoned me and asked how I was doing. He had me come into his clinic for a checkup. He was working as usual, busy with his office quite full of patients all wearing masks. My sister-in-law's sister is an ICU nurse and she said she was very busy in ICU, not dealing with Covid but general patients from surgery that require ICU.

I guess each province was different, but I really did not here cases that were critical being refused care.

[LesPalenik]

I don't think anyone denies that there have been some inconveniences.  But to say that some have died as a result of them is meaningless unless weighed against the damage done by the alternative.  Not sure why this isn't obvious?

For some people an inconvenience is not being able to get a haircut or pedicure, or not getting served at a restaurant.
To an uninitiated even postponement of elective surgery or a chemotherapy treatment may seem to be inconvenience, but to somebody in dire need of a medical diagnosis or a treatment it is a matter of life and death. If a tattoo artist or barber is allowed to ply his trade with a mask on, the doctors should be allowed to do it, too.

I'm glad that you and your friends are OK. Unfortunately, in the last few months I witnessed several deaths and complications due to medical offices being closed by overly rigid administration rules rather than governed by common sense and practical arrangements.

[LesPalenik]

I can understand the hospitals being more strict in Ontario...it was in such a mess just a month ago. BC was never in much of a crisis and surgeries that were critical continued.

I got sick with the flu and went in to get a Covid test...negative. But my doctor got the results, phoned me and asked how I was doing. He had me come into his clinic for a checkup. He was working as usual, busy with his office quite full of patients all wearing masks. My sister-in-law's sister is an ICU nurse and she said she was very busy in ICU, not dealing with Covid but general patients from surgery that require ICU.

I guess each province was different, but I really did not here cases that were critical being refused care.

That is a good example how to take precautions and still get the things done. It looks like BC handled the situation in a more competent way than in Ontario,
However, to my knowledge. many cancer treatments were postponed nationwide.
 

All provinces and territories this month said they would be postponing elective procedures, citing the potential impact of COVID-19. Ontario announced the measure on March 15, with Health Minister Christine Elliott saying that the province had asked all hospitals to begin “carefully ramping down” elective surgeries and other “non-emergent clinical activity.”

B.C. took the same step the next day, announcing that elective surgeries would be cancelled. Other jurisdictions took similar measures around the same time.
The cancellations are nerve-racking for patients and health-care providers.

“It’s extremely upsetting to hear that some patients’ treatments may be delayed – that’s not what we signed up to do as physicians,” Dr. Mary Gospodarowicz, medical director of Princess Margaret Cancer Centre, said Wednesday in an interview.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/british-columbia/article-hospitals-postpone-surgeries-treatments-to-make-space-for-potential/

[BernardLanguillier]

I think you are making an assumption that I was hating Obama for being black, instead for his policies? And by the same token, that I support Trump based on his personality? Neither is true, and in both cases I support or not their policies, not personalities.

No, I don't think you are racist Slobodan.

I believe that you hated Obama for what he was standing for, the elite, educated people understanding the realities of the world, able to deal with complexity and to articulate a speech. But also someone understanding deeply the values of America. Understanding not just the high class millionaires, but also the sufferings of poor citizen in minorities. Understanding discrimination.

I would be interested in your reaction to the John Bolton book.

Do you believe what he writes is true? If you do, why do you not think it paints Trump in a terrible light and confirms all the talk about him not being fit for presidency.

Cheers,
Bernard